Officials say al-Qaida operatives may be fully trained airline pilots

[Mutts]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/

Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden’s
al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
News on Monday.

[Judah]

Yeah, but now that the Security Level has been raised to Orange, we're all
safe!


Mutts > wrote in
:

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
>
> Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden’s
> al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> News on Monday.
>

[Rosspilot]

> new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden’s
>al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
>passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
>positioning them to carry out suicide attacks

Well, there you have it. A perfect reason to come down hard on GA again. :(
Flawless logic. I feel so much safer now.



www.Rosspilot.com

[Peter R.]

Rosspilot ) wrote:

> Well, there you have it. A perfect reason to come down hard on GA again. :(
> Flawless logic. I feel so much safer now.

LOL! :)

--
Peter












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[Geoffrey Barnes]

> Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden's
> al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> News on Monday.

I've always wondered whether that Egypt Air moron was really just suicidal,
or performing his own little jihad. It wouldn't suprise me a bit if he was
really the first al-Qaida operative to try this little twist on suicide
bombing.

[Jim Buckridge]

Mutts > wrote in message >...
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
>
> Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden?s
> al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> News on Monday.

Suprise suprise surpise. That was the first thing I said when the new
security measures were put into place. If the pilot (and maybe
they'll need to copilot to be in on it too) are IN THE COCKPIT it
doesn't matter what security measures are in place. These terrorist
organizations are patient. They'll wait the X years it takes get
someone to get properly trained to fly a large passenger jet. Maybe
he's your CFI now. Or working at your FBO, building hours here in the
US so that he can become a pilot either here or abroad. How many
years passed between the first attempt WTC bombing and 9/11? I think
it was eight years. How long does it take someone to go from the $50
discovery flight to PIC of a passenger jet flying for Mid Eastern
airline?

[Andrew Gideon]

Jim Buckridge wrote:

> Mutts > wrote in message
> >...
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
>>
>> Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
>> after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden?s
>> al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
>> passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
>> positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
>> News on Monday.
>
> Suprise suprise surpise.

What does fascinate me is what they're doing about it.

- Andrew

[Rich Raine]

I can't believe someone would train to get licensed, get a job on the
majors, have a great income, and style of life, and then would throw it all
away to make some guy living in a cave happy by participating in a suicide
attack. I just don't think that will happen.

Rich Raine

www.eraine.com


"Jim Buckridge" > wrote in message
om...
> Mutts > wrote in message
>...
> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
> >
> > Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> > after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden?s
> > al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> > passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> > positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> > News on Monday.
>
> Suprise suprise surpise. That was the first thing I said when the new
> security measures were put into place. If the pilot (and maybe
> they'll need to copilot to be in on it too) are IN THE COCKPIT it
> doesn't matter what security measures are in place. These terrorist
> organizations are patient. They'll wait the X years it takes get
> someone to get properly trained to fly a large passenger jet. Maybe
> he's your CFI now. Or working at your FBO, building hours here in the
> US so that he can become a pilot either here or abroad. How many
> years passed between the first attempt WTC bombing and 9/11? I think
> it was eight years. How long does it take someone to go from the $50
> discovery flight to PIC of a passenger jet flying for Mid Eastern
> airline?

[Ross Oliver]

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:16:56 -0800, Mutts > wrote:
>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
>
>Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
>after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden’s
>al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
>passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
>positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
>News on Monday.


This was my favorite quote, from CNN:

"Ironically, reinforced cockpit doors now installed on many airliners
would serve to protect a pilot-terrorist from passenger intervention."

[Teacherjh]

>>
I can't believe someone would train to get licensed, get a job on the
majors, have a great income, and style of life, and then would throw it all
away to make some guy living in a cave happy by participating in a suicide
attack. I just don't think that will happen.
<<

That's not the way it happens.

The way it happens is that some guy decides to make sombody living in a cave
(or dying on a cross) happy. They then train for the mission, put up with a
"great lifestyle", and finally give their life to God.

I'm sure it's in progress.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Rob Perkins]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:26:09 -0800, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>Rich Raine wrote:
>>
>> I just don't think that will happen.
>
>You haven't known any fundamentalist <plug in your favorite religion here>. I have.
>They'll do that in a heartbeat.

The only recent "fundamentalist" movements I can think of (and I'm
thinking of the past several hundred to thousand years) that has shown
it is capable of mass murder/suicide have been certain strains of
radical Islam.

The last suicidally religious group I can think of would have been the
2nd Century Martyrs of early Christianity, and even they didn't take
innocents with them to death. Everyone else I can think of fielded
people who were willing to be killed for their faith, but only after
putting up a vigorous fight.

So I don't agree fundamentalists from <plug in your favorite religion>
will "do that in a heartbeat." Can you prove me wrong?

Rob

[Mutts]

I wonder who will be the first to suggest eliminating pilots all
together for airlines. It has already been suggested for fighters.
Or maybe the remote control suggestion will pop up again.
Brings new questions to guns in the cockpit now.

My opinion. Whatever these religious wack jobs can cook up, we can
overcome. Maybe special ports of entry and procedures for airliners
from certain countries, or foreign airlines must have approved pilots
on their flights into the US if the threat is deemed realistic.
These chumps days are numbered, and they know it.

On 24 Dec 2003 02:49:14 GMT, (Teacherjh)
wrote:

>>>
>I can't believe someone would train to get licensed, get a job on the
>majors, have a great income, and style of life, and then would throw it all
>away to make some guy living in a cave happy by participating in a suicide
>attack. I just don't think that will happen.
><<
>
>That's not the way it happens.
>
>The way it happens is that some guy decides to make sombody living in a cave
>(or dying on a cross) happy. They then train for the mission, put up with a
>"great lifestyle", and finally give their life to God.
>
>I'm sure it's in progress.
>
>Jose

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rich Raine wrote:
>
> I just don't think that will happen.

You haven't known any fundamentalist <plug in your favorite religion here>. I have.
They'll do that in a heartbeat.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Rob Perkins at
wrote on 12/23/03 7:08 PM:

> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:26:09 -0800, "G.R. Patterson III"
> > wrote:
>
>> Rich Raine wrote:
>>>
>>> I just don't think that will happen.
>>
>> You haven't known any fundamentalist <plug in your favorite religion here>. I
>> have.
>> They'll do that in a heartbeat.
>
> The only recent "fundamentalist" movements I can think of (and I'm
> thinking of the past several hundred to thousand years) that has shown
> it is capable of mass murder/suicide have been certain strains of
> radical Islam.

Jonestown?

[Corrie]

The question is whether the pax would ever be aware of the impending
disaster. Looking out the window, gee, we seem to be a little low....
Not likely the guy is gonna make an announcement and have the folks
in back alert the media - and the USAF...

Background checks on foreign pilots, anyone? BTW - I highly recommend
Lou Martin's book "Wings Over Persia" - google the title. It's a
memoir of his years flying for the Shah of Iran just before the
Revolution. Interesting insights into Middle Eastern (though not
Arab) mind and culture.


(Ross Oliver) wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 21:16:56 -0800, Mutts > wrote:
> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
> >
> >Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> >after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden?s
> >al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> >passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> >positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> >News on Monday.
>
>
> This was my favorite quote, from CNN:
>
> "Ironically, reinforced cockpit doors now installed on many airliners
> would serve to protect a pilot-terrorist from passenger intervention."

[Corrie]

(Teacherjh) wrote in message >...

> The way it happens is that some guy decides to make sombody living in a cave
> (or dying on a cross) happy.

That was a Cheap Shot (caps intentional). Name the last suicide
terrorist - one who deliberately kills large numbers of innocents
along with himself - who was motivated by any variety of
even-close-to-mainstream Christianity. Jim Jones and David Koresh
don't count - their followers numbered in the dozens-to-hundreds, not
the hundreds-of-thousands-to-millions that support radical Islam.
Christianity still produces martyrs - check what's going on in China
and Sudan - but those folks are being *killed by* non-Christians.


> They then train for the mission, put up with a
> "great lifestyle", and finally give their life to God.

True enough. The 9/11 killers lived in the US for several years,
living (but presumably not enjoying) a nearly-typical suburban
lifestyle.

[Corrie]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031224/ap_on_re_us/terror_threat&cid=519&ncid=716

Focusing on cargo planes, they say. Force us to implement security
measures (screen all cargo?) that could bring next-day-air to a
screeching halt. Do FedEx and UPS use foreign-national pilots? Do
foreign-flag cargo operations operate in the US? Hmmm...


"When they are in fact out to get you, paranoia is a healthy state of
mind."


Mutts > wrote in message >...
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
>
> Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden?s
> al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> News on Monday.

[Mike Rapoport]

As long as we are talking about what they COULD be, we should be glad that
they are not Jedi Knights.

Mike
MU-2


"Mutts" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
>
> Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden's
> al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> News on Monday.

[Ron Natalie]

"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message ...

>
> "Ironically, reinforced cockpit doors now installed on many airliners
> would serve to protect a pilot-terrorist from passenger intervention."
>
Obviously time to implement Archie Bunker's anti-hijacking scheme.
Give out guns to all the passengers. With that many people packing
nobody would try anything.

[Andrew Gideon]

Martin Hotze wrote:

> Heck .. what a stupid idea using a plane for terrorism ... there are so
> many other more or less subtile methods of making the people freaking out
> ...

I'm not sure. Using aircraft is an attack on air-based commerce. The world
needs this.

But take it further. Perhaps after they shut down air-based commerce,
they'll go after sea-based commerce. Bury a nuke in the cargo of some
ship, and it'll never be found until the harbor lights up. But subsequent
to this, all cargo must be screened. Unless the TSA is willing to do a
major turn-around on what they'll pay for screeners (note that they're
reducing staffing size for airport screeners), this will drag sea-based
commerce to an effective halt.

Perhaps the plan is to attack international commerce.

- Andrew

[Kevin McCue]

Historically- The Nazi's claimed to have God on their side as they killed
millions of Jews.
The Spanish Inquisition
Then various Crusades
Numerous campaigns against the "heathen" indians

These all were couched or claimed right based on the
Christian religion in at least some respect. There are many others involving
other religions (Shinto/Samuri) etc. Anytime someone places their beliefs as
more correct than anothers there is the possibility. My step father always
said, "Your rights end where the next person's begin." Makes alot of sense.

--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)




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[Robert M. Gary]

(Jim Buckridge) wrote in message >...
> Mutts > wrote in message >...
>> Suprise suprise surpise. That was the first thing I said when the
new
> security measures were put into place. If the pilot (and maybe
> they'll need to copilot to be in on it too) are IN THE COCKPIT it
> doesn't matter what security measures are in place. These terrorist
> organizations are patient.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/newstmpl=story&u=/ap/20031224/ap_on_re_us/terror_threat&cid=519&ncid=716
It says here that they are putting anti-aircraft guns around New York,
Washington, and other places. It don't think they care if its the
pilots or not!

[Robert M. Gary]

(Corrie) wrote in message >...
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031224/ap_on_re_us/terror_threat&cid=519&ncid=716
>
> Focusing on cargo planes, they say. Force us to implement security
> measures (screen all cargo?) that could bring next-day-air to a
> screeching halt. Do FedEx and UPS use foreign-national pilots? Do
> foreign-flag cargo operations operate in the US? Hmmm...
>

When I last looked at their web page it didn't require pilots be U.S.
citizens, just eligable to work in the U.S. and able to travel abroad
(i.e. a reentrant Working Visa)

[Wdtabor]

>>
>Obviously time to implement Archie Bunker's anti-hijacking scheme.
>Give out guns to all the passengers. With that many people packing
>nobody would try anything.

No chance that will happen, 3 reasons:

1) It would work.
2) It'spolitically incorrect
3) It does not involve government gaining more power



--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Rob Perkins]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:43:39 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> wrote:

>> The only recent "fundamentalist" movements I can think of (and I'm
>> thinking of the past several hundred to thousand years) that has shown
>> it is capable of mass murder/suicide have been certain strains of
>> radical Islam.
>
>Jonestown?

No, because the movement didn't survive the deaths of its followers
nor its leader, right?

Rob

[Rob Perkins]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:49:05 -0500, Gene Kearns
> wrote:

>Fundamentalists are, by definition, to be feared.

Fundamentalism is, by definition, "a movement or attitude stressing
strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles"

In that sense it is difficult to see how there could not be harmless
fundamentalists.

>Fundamentalists from <plug in your favorite religion> will <do
>whatever> in a heartbeat if they feel that <their god> has mandated
><that action>. Having been born and raised in the bible belt, I can
>assure you that 99.44% religious discussions end with, "well, god said
>it, I believe it, and that's that." And both parties walk away
>feeling righteous.

I've no doubt of that; I've had plenty of religious conversations
myself. But the fact of it is that both parties to those conversations
walked away. That's *the* significant difference between a Christian
"fundamentalist" and the islamo-fascist "fundamentalist".

In fact, these islamicists appear to be "fundamentalist" hypocrites,
if they'll set their own code of behavior aside in order to hide among
Americans.

>I'm not sure what you have in mind by *mass*, but the following come
>to mind:

Not big enough. And by "mass murder/suicide" I definitely don't mean
the Heaven's Gate or Jonestown mass suicides, those movements were too
small and didn't survive the deaths of their adherents, and they
didn't have the component that the suicidal person was going to take
as many noncombatants with him to his death.

>The one I particularly like is the "God is Love" people, the
>Cabalists. The christian pope didn't like them much.... so much for
>"love"....
>
>http://www.theunjustmedia.com/The%20dark_history_of_the_templars.htm

I also don't recall that the Templars killed themselves on their
campaigns, without a vigorous fight.

I don't think your case is made, Gene.

Rob

[Gene Seibel]

3 years ago we didn't believe someone would hijack an airliner and fly
it into the WTC. Ttuth is stranger than fiction.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



"Rich Raine" > wrote in message >...
> I can't believe someone would train to get licensed, get a job on the
> majors, have a great income, and style of life, and then would throw it all
> away to make some guy living in a cave happy by participating in a suicide
> attack. I just don't think that will happen.
>
> Rich Raine
>
> www.eraine.com
>
>
> "Jim Buckridge" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Mutts > wrote in message
> >...
> > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/3775771/
> > >
> > > Authorities raised the terrorist threat assessment over the weekend
> > > after new intelligence indicated that operatives of Osama bin Laden?s
> > > al-Qaida terror network, possibly trained and licensed to fly
> > > passenger jets, may now be pilots for some foreign airlines, ideally
> > > positioning them to carry out suicide attacks, U.S. officials told NBC
> > > News on Monday.
> >
> > Suprise suprise surpise. That was the first thing I said when the new
> > security measures were put into place. If the pilot (and maybe
> > they'll need to copilot to be in on it too) are IN THE COCKPIT it
> > doesn't matter what security measures are in place. These terrorist
> > organizations are patient. They'll wait the X years it takes get
> > someone to get properly trained to fly a large passenger jet. Maybe
> > he's your CFI now. Or working at your FBO, building hours here in the
> > US so that he can become a pilot either here or abroad. How many
> > years passed between the first attempt WTC bombing and 9/11? I think
> > it was eight years. How long does it take someone to go from the $50
> > discovery flight to PIC of a passenger jet flying for Mid Eastern
> > airline?

[pacplyer]

(Corrie) wrote in message >...
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031224/ap_on_re_us/terror_threat&cid=519&ncid=716
>
> Focusing on cargo planes, they say. Force us to implement security
> measures (screen all cargo?) that could bring next-day-air to a
> screeching halt. Do FedEx and UPS use foreign-national pilots?

No. (with one exception that I am aware of pre-merger - an Austrian
who is now a citizen by now I think.)

>Do foreign-flag cargo operations operate in the US? Hmmm...
>
>

Yes. e.g., JAL Cargo (JAA), All Nippon Cargo, Cargolux, Air France
Cargo, others. Belly freight on dozens of other foreign passenger
carriers.

pacplyer

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Rob Perkins at
wrote on 12/24/03 11:37 AM:

> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 05:43:39 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> > wrote:
>
>>> The only recent "fundamentalist" movements I can think of (and I'm
>>> thinking of the past several hundred to thousand years) that has shown
>>> it is capable of mass murder/suicide have been certain strains of
>>> radical Islam.
>>
>> Jonestown?
>
> No, because the movement didn't survive the deaths of its followers
> nor its leader, right?
>
> Rob

But you didn't make that qualification originally.

[Rob Perkins]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:04:29 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> wrote:

>> No, because the movement didn't survive the deaths of its followers
>> nor its leader, right?
>>
>> Rob
>
>But you didn't make that qualification originally.

You're right, I didn't. Mea culpa. However, other characteristics of
small cults like Jim Jones' thing, or Heaven's Gate, make it different
enough from a genuine movement like militant islamicism that the two
simply don't compare on enough levels.

Rob

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Rob Perkins at
wrote on 12/27/03 8:40 PM:

> On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:04:29 GMT, Philip Sondericker
> > wrote:
>
>>> No, because the movement didn't survive the deaths of its followers
>>> nor its leader, right?
>>>
>>> Rob
>>
>> But you didn't make that qualification originally.
>
> You're right, I didn't. Mea culpa. However, other characteristics of
> small cults like Jim Jones' thing, or Heaven's Gate, make it different
> enough from a genuine movement like militant islamicism that the two
> simply don't compare on enough levels.
>
> Rob

I'm not sure how one defines "mass murder", but the Crusades (which were
essentially a Christian Jihad) lasted about 300 years, and it's been
estimated that they resulted in millions of deaths. It's also worth noting
that they included the infamous "Children's Crusade", so apparently militant
Muslims aren't the only ones who consider children expendable in a religious
war.