Where can I get dual instruction in a glider with flaps? (USA)

[son_of_flubber]

I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Friday, August 17, 2012 7:39:56 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)

FWIW - the flaps in the L-13 are more-or-less for show only. They really aren't preparation for something like an ASW-20 with "real" drag and lift producing flaps. I guess it gives you something to do with your left hand.

In answer to your question though, there aren't a lot of ships that fit that bill. Our club had several Larks (had being the operative word - we're almost to Black Ace status) which would have done the trick. I'd look around for someone with a Janus.

P3

[T[_2_]]

SoaringNV in Minden NV has a Duo Discus.
T

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:39:56 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)

They have a Lark at Dillingham Airfield, Oahu, HI.

Bart

[kirk.stant]

Duo is unflapped.

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

What kind of flaps? Speed flaps? Really doesnt require dual - read up on the theory and go out and try it out. Landing flaps? Good instructor briefing and a high tow to play with the various settings (stalls can be interesting with flaps in some ships).

90 degree flaps require a good understanding of how they work a a good briefing by someone experienced in them. Then high tow and try them - they are great!

Kirk
66

[kirk.stant]

What kind of flaps? Speed flaps? Really doesnt require dual - read up on the theory and go out and try it out. Landing flaps? Good instructor briefing and a high tow to play with the various settings (stalls can be interesting with flaps in some ships).

90 degree flaps require a good understanding of how they work a a good briefing by someone experienced in them. Then high tow and try them - they are great!

Kirk
66

[jfitch]

Can

On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:39:56 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)

Can't you find someone with an ASH25? Williams Soaring has one or access to one, don't know if they would give instruction but it's worth a call.

[Duster]

On Aug 18, 12:21*am, jfitch > wrote:
> Can
>
> On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:39:56 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. *(yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)
>
> Can't you find someone with an ASH25? Williams Soaring has one or access to one, don't know if they would give instruction but it's worth a call.

What ship are you training to fly in? I fly an all-flapped 1-35 and
there are some good written reviews on how to fly them. Also the HP
site has some great guidance. L-13s do have functional flaps, but
really only for thermalling slow, not much as a landing aid. The Duo
does have flaps, but they are interconnected with brakes,

[Wayne Paul]

"Duster" wrote in message
...

> On Aug 18, 12:21 am, jfitch > wrote:
> > Can
> >
> > On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:39:56 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> > > I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a
> > > glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of
> > > the L-13s)
> >
> > Can't you find someone with an ASH25? Williams Soaring has one or access
> > to one, don't know if they would give instruction but it's worth a call.

> What ship are you training to fly in? I fly an all-flapped 1-35 and
> there are some good written reviews on how to fly them. Also the HP
> site has some great guidance. L-13s do have functional flaps, but
> really only for thermalling slow, not much as a landing aid. The Duo
> does have flaps, but they are interconnected with brakes,

One of the basic HP article referenced above is
http://tinyurl.com/First-HP-Flight
It applies to the 1-35, Zuni, BG-12/16, etc. as well as Schreder designs.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[gen]

Some dual-seat motorglider have flaps, such as DG500M, DG505M, and Stemme S10.

https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/licensing-and-training

-Gen


On Friday, August 17, 2012 4:39:56 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)

[[email protected]]

On Friday, August 17, 2012 7:39:56 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I'm looking for someplace in the USA to get dual instruction in a glider that has flaps. (yet another reason to regret the grounding of the L-13s)

FWIW.....I did a few patterns in a Cessna 150 (full flaps compared to a 152) before going into s SGS-135, later a ASW-20. It was worthwhile to see the differences in pitch attitude.
If you're proficient in gliders, this should be enough for the transition along with a ground discussion.

This is coming from an ex CFIG & few thousand hour glider/competition pilot.

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:21:29 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:

> What ship are you training to fly in? I fly an all-flapped 1-35 and
>
> there are some good written reviews on how to fly them.

I want to transition to a SGS 1-35 after flying a Grob 102 and ASK-21. Initial landing will be on a 5500 foot runway at a low traffic airport, so I can ease into using the flaps. I have a CFI-G who has flown 600 hours (years ago)in a SGS 1-35 who will brief on the ground.

The other suggestions are much appreciated. I don't fly power, but I may take some lessons in a Cessna 150 per Charli's suggestion. I plan to fly a few hours of power instruction (just for general knowledge) in any case.

[T[_2_]]

I was thinking of the Duo X. But you are correct. Even then the flap position is tied to the spoiler position.
T

[T[_2_]]

We have transitioned pilots into single seat gliders with no spoilers, just landing flaps with no issues.
A good read and ground school session on aerodynamic effects AMD talking with those that have flown flaps only and then let them go.
A god long runway for landing helps. Flown both the 1-35 and Nugget, LP-15.

T

[Wayne Paul]

I hope you monitor the gmail address associated with your post, because I
just used it to sent you a personal email.

Wayne
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp-gliders
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"son_of_flubber" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:21:29 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:

> What ship are you training to fly in? I fly an all-flapped 1-35 and
>
> there are some good written reviews on how to fly them.

I want to transition to a SGS 1-35 after flying a Grob 102 and ASK-21.
Initial landing will be on a 5500 foot runway at a low traffic airport, so I
can ease into using the flaps. I have a CFI-G who has flown 600 hours
(years ago)in a SGS 1-35 who will brief on the ground.

The other suggestions are much appreciated. I don't fly power, but I may
take some lessons in a Cessna 150 per Charli's suggestion. I plan to fly a
few hours of power instruction (just for general knowledge) in any case.

[Duster]

There are some good flying tips on the 1-35 site. I yours is a 1-35c,
note that it has less + flaps than the other models. The POH also has
some good advise. Youtube has a few vids of 1-35s and HPs as they are
landing. I you have a 25degree detent, then that will account for most
of the lift-enhancement; the rest providing more drag than lift. Get
used to the unusual attitude with flaps deployed and don't be dumping
flaps on short (low altitude) final as that will make the ship tend to
drop and increase your stalling speed. Some advise going to neutral or
negative settings on touchdown to plant the ship. Go through all your
flap settings at altitude as practice. It's a fun ship, have fun!

http://members.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/135/ramb135.htm

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>... I can ease into using the flaps.

That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped glider.
Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
find another CFI with more appropriate experience.

You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
But be safe and get proper training first !
I've watched some really unfortunate results
when proper training didn't precede flying...

Best Regards, Dave

[Duster]

On Aug 19, 2:55*pm, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >... I can ease into using the flaps.
>
> That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped glider..
> Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
> If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
> find another CFI with more appropriate experience.
>
> You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
> But be safe and get proper training first !
> I've watched some really unfortunate results
> when proper training didn't precede flying...
>
> Best Regards, Dave

There's very little good advice missing in the 1-35 and HP "First
flight with flaps" reviews, and do a thorough search in the posts over
the years in this group. Ignore the ones that say "just jump in and
fly it and use the flaps like spoilers". With a mile-long runway,
there is a safe way to "..ease into using flaps." That doesn't mean
don't use any flaps, but you probably don't want to put out all 90 on
your first try (The HPs have more than either 1-35 versions I
believe). As I recall, the POH advises to put in 25deg in the pattern.
Once you know you have the field made, you can add more flaps as long
as you still have the field. Someone made a comment that is straight
to the point; something like "If you are low with flaps out and you
aren't going to make the field, there's nothing you can do but land
short". Many caution not to carry too much extra speed in the flair,
since you can use that mile up in ground-effect with lift-enhancement.
Since you do have extra flaps in your practice flts, you add more to
increase drag. You have a wheel brake and front skid. Going neutral
should keep you planted. On TO, I go to -8 until there's enough air
for roll control, though I wouldn't worry about on the first flights.
Yes, talk to a CFI about theory, but if he/she doesn't have experience
in flap-only ships, then talk to someone who does in your type. Isn't
there a one-off dual-place HP still flying out there one could get
instruction?

[BobW]

On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> ... I can ease into using the flaps.
>
> That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped glider.
> Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
> If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
> find another CFI with more appropriate experience.
>
"What Dave said!"

Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of improper
use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).

> You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
> But be safe and get proper training first !
> I've watched some really unfortunate results
> when proper training didn't precede flying...

Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate results,'
even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider getting
bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)

IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct use
of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned to
them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and 1-26's.
That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to research.
So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly went
back to spoilers unless giving rides.

The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.

>
> Best Regards, Dave
>

Have fun!

Bob - >2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

[Duster]

On Aug 19, 5:39*pm, BobW > wrote:
> On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:> On Saturday, August 18, 2012 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >> ... I can ease into using the flaps.
>
> > That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped glider.
> > Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
> > If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
> > find another CFI with more appropriate experience.
>
> "What Dave said!"
>
> Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of improper
> use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
> semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).
>
> > You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
> > But be safe and get proper training first !
> > I've watched some really unfortunate results
> > when proper training didn't precede flying...
>
> Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate results,'
> even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider getting
> bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)
>
> IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct use
> of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned to
> them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and 1-26's.
> That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to research.
> So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly went
> back to spoilers unless giving rides.
>
> The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
> large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.
>
>
>
> > Best Regards, Dave
>
> Have fun!
>
> Bob - >2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

Agreed, and it's those details that we need to squeeze out of
experienced flappers like you. Maybe when you have time you can write
at least a short narrative on how you would instruct a newbie to flap-
only ships. Here are a few YouTube videos that focus on landings.
First is a 1-35 on base/final. Note the extreme attitude at what I
think I hear him say are full flaps. Before touchdown, he retracts
partial flaps, and note what happens next. Read the notes made with
the post (no, not the idiotic comments that follow). Good on these
guys who post less-than-perfect flights so we can all learn. The other
two videos show an HP11, HP16 and HP18. The last, an HP18 driver gives
a good self-critique (read his side-bar) on what he did wrong in one
landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1au6V1E5CyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM

[Wayne Paul]

Duster,

As I mentioned earlier, Bob Kuykendall has already written a narrative on
large-span flaps. Read it carefully along with the associated links.
http://tinyurl.com/First-HP-Flight

The following is the link to the HP-18 landing you mentioned in your post.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Stories/Preparing_for_first_HP_flight.htm

I'm quite sure that a CFIG experienced in a PIK-20B, 1-35, or Schreder
sailplane will be able to provide the needed instruction to safely
transition to a large-span-flap sailplane.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder




"Duster" wrote in message
...

On Aug 19, 5:39 pm, BobW > wrote:
> On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:> On Saturday, August 18, 2012
> 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >> ... I can ease into using the flaps.
>
> > That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped
> > glider.
> > Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
> > If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
> > find another CFI with more appropriate experience.
>
> "What Dave said!"
>
> Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of
> improper
> use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
> semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).
>
> > You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
> > But be safe and get proper training first !
> > I've watched some really unfortunate results
> > when proper training didn't precede flying...
>
> Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate
> results,'
> even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider
> getting
> bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)
>
> IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct
> use
> of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned
> to
> them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and
> 1-26's.
> That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to
> research.
> So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly
> went
> back to spoilers unless giving rides.
>
> The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
> large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.
>
>
>
> > Best Regards, Dave
>
> Have fun!
>
> Bob - >2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

Agreed, and it's those details that we need to squeeze out of
experienced flappers like you. Maybe when you have time you can write
at least a short narrative on how you would instruct a newbie to flap-
only ships. Here are a few YouTube videos that focus on landings.
First is a 1-35 on base/final. Note the extreme attitude at what I
think I hear him say are full flaps. Before touchdown, he retracts
partial flaps, and note what happens next. Read the notes made with
the post (no, not the idiotic comments that follow). Good on these
guys who post less-than-perfect flights so we can all learn. The other
two videos show an HP11, HP16 and HP18. The last, an HP18 driver gives
a good self-critique (read his side-bar) on what he did wrong in one
landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1au6V1E5CyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM

[Wayne Paul]

Duster,

As I mentioned earlier, Bob Kuykendall has already written a narrative on
large-span flaps. Read it carefully along with the associated links.
http://tinyurl.com/First-HP-Flight

This is the HP-18 link that I meant to post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kI1kP0KRq2Y

I'm quite sure that a CFIG experienced in a PIK-20B, 1-35, or Schreder
sailplane will be able to provide the needed instruction to safely
transition to a large-span-flap sailplane.

Wayne
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder




"Duster" wrote in message
...

On Aug 19, 5:39 pm, BobW > wrote:
> On 8/19/2012 1:55 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:> On Saturday, August 18, 2012
> 9:25:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> >> ... I can ease into using the flaps.
>
> > That is one of the most dangerous things you can do with a flapped
> > glider.
> > Do your homework and make sure you understand why.
> > If you've had a CFI briefing and aren't clear on this,
> > find another CFI with more appropriate experience.
>
> "What Dave said!"
>
> Where you don't want to end up is overshooting your field because of
> improper
> use of arguably the most effective/draggy/energy-reducing landing devices
> semi-commonly found on sailplanes (i.e. large-deflection landing flaps).
>
> > You'll love the glider and the landing flaps !
> > But be safe and get proper training first !
> > I've watched some really unfortunate results
> > when proper training didn't precede flying...
>
> Again..."What Dave said!" (It's painful to watch 'really unfortunate
> results,'
> even when nothing gets bent. It's even more painful to watch a glider
> getting
> bent when 'proper training' is willfully ignored!)
>
> IMHO, there's nothing fundamentally difficult or dangerous in the correct
> use
> of large-deflection landing flaps. I - safely, unexcitingly - transitioned
> to
> them from a 1-26 with a total of 128 hours, all in 2-22'2, 2-33's and
> 1-26's.
> That was in 1975...no instructors to talk with, no world wide web to
> research.
> So did my partner with roughly similar time/experience. Never willingly
> went
> back to spoilers unless giving rides.
>
> The devil is always in the details, and the details of proper use of
> large-deflection flaps were/are not particularly well hidden.
>
>
>
> > Best Regards, Dave
>
> Have fun!
>
> Bob - >2,000 hrs of large deflection-landing flapped ship time - W.

Agreed, and it's those details that we need to squeeze out of
experienced flappers like you. Maybe when you have time you can write
at least a short narrative on how you would instruct a newbie to flap-
only ships. Here are a few YouTube videos that focus on landings.
First is a 1-35 on base/final. Note the extreme attitude at what I
think I hear him say are full flaps. Before touchdown, he retracts
partial flaps, and note what happens next. Read the notes made with
the post (no, not the idiotic comments that follow). Good on these
guys who post less-than-perfect flights so we can all learn. The other
two videos show an HP11, HP16 and HP18. The last, an HP18 driver gives
a good self-critique (read his side-bar) on what he did wrong in one
landing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1au6V1E5CyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC55ikXmo5I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXwy7dsLndM

[Dave Nadler]

Be careful of extrapolating from HP series to 1-35.
The 1-35 has, unfortunately, much less flap than HPs,
especially later "club" models IIRC.
Thus with the 1-35:
- it is more important to use full flap
- if airspeed is not carefully controlled and you get
to fast, you will float forever (not an issue with HPs).

Get a QUALIFIED instructor, and have fun !
Best Regards, Dave

[Mike the Strike]

The ultimate flap position on the original ASW20 was sometimes referred to as the "Jesus" flap. As I discovered when I first deployed it on mine, that is likely the expletive you will use. Any glider that has flaps that deploy much beyond 45 degrees will display quite different behavior, particularly pitch and attitude that takes some getting used to. Stall/spin behavior also changes and many pilots advise deploying extreme flaps only on final.. I didn't get any instruction, but followed colleagues advice to practice at altitude. Proceed with care!

Mike

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

Nice discussion on all things 1-35 here:
http://members.goldengate.net/~tmrent/soar/docs/135/ramb135.htm

Bob

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:25:58 -0700 (PDT), son_of_flubber
> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 18, 2012 12:21:29 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
>
>> What ship are you training to fly in? I fly an all-flapped 1-35 and
>>
>> there are some good written reviews on how to fly them.
>
>I want to transition to a SGS 1-35 after flying a Grob 102 and ASK-21. Initial landing will
be on a 5500 foot runway at a low traffic airport, so I can ease into
using the flaps. I have a CFI-G who has flown 600 hours (years ago)in
a SGS 1-35 who will brief on the ground.
>
>The other suggestions are much appreciated. I don't fly power, but I may take some
lessons in a Cessna 150 per Charli's suggestion. I plan to fly a few
hours of power instruction (just for general knowledge) in any case.

[AGL]

On Aug 18, 11:00*pm, T > wrote:
> We have transitioned pilots into single seat gliders with no spoilers, just landing flaps with no issues.
> A good read and ground school session on aerodynamic effects AMD talking with those that have flown flaps only and then let them go.
> A god long runway for landing helps. Flown both the 1-35 and Nugget, LP-15.
>
> T

As someone with not much flying experience who transitioned to a
1-35 , with 50 landings since, let me say this: You will get many
different opinions, all valid, but contradictory and confusing. Just
use the method described in the POH at least 10 times before fooling
around with it. My last 10 landings haven't made as good as my first
10 since I'm now trying variations. The first one was perfect! :-)

I'm not convinced that a lot of experience in planes other than 1-35's
will help much since at full flaps the stick has to go a long way
forward, and the speed drops off really fast, and the nose drops a
lot. Be ready for something of much greater magnitude than the little
effects "normal" spoilers have on the glide slope. That experience
conditions you to using spoilers, not flpas. Apply the flaps slowly
so your stick hand can keep up with the spoiler hand and watch the
airspeed and thr PIOs. :-) It's a bit wierd, but you will come to
see it as just different.

Just use the POH until you get used to it.

Martin