Chicago Shoreline TFR

[Ben Smith]

Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS before
launching today.

3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT OPERATIONS
ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
(415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE RADIAL/
14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION OF
THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME) THEN
NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD (415716N/874010W
OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO LAKE
MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE POINT
OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL PEREZ,
773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS THE
FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

[Jim]

It just begs to ask exactly what they define the shoreline as. 1 ft east of
the shoreline and you're good to go? Any why exclude Navy Pier and the
Park? I'm thinking this has Mayor Paranoid Daily written all over it.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply


"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS
before
> launching today.
>
> 3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
> UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
> INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
> EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT
OPERATIONS
> ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
> (415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE
RADIAL/
> 14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION
OF
> THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
> 13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
> ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME)
THEN
> NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD
(415716N/874010W
> OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO LAKE
> MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
> THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE
POINT
> OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL
PEREZ,
> 773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS
THE
> FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y
>
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 15:26:54 -0600, "Ben Smith"
> wrote:

>Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS before
>launching today.
<snip>
>THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE POINT
>OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL PEREZ,
>773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS THE
>FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN

When over the shoreline I'm usually more than twice that height.
Course if the engine quit....

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair?)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Rob Perkins]

On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:01:12 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:

>When over the shoreline I'm usually more than twice that height.
>Course if the engine quit....

....you'd declare an emergency and the TFR could go hang itself anyway.
Not that there's any good place to land within that space. From 6000
overlying that area you'd probably just make for Meigs and try for the
taxiway, right?

Rob

[EDR]

In article >, Rob Perkins
> wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:01:12 GMT, Roger Halstead
> > wrote:
>
> >When over the shoreline I'm usually more than twice that height.
> >Course if the engine quit....
>
> ...you'd declare an emergency and the TFR could go hang itself anyway.
> Not that there's any good place to land within that space. From 6000
> overlying that area you'd probably just make for Meigs and try for the
> taxiway, right?


What do they call that multi-lane stretch of road, Shoreline Drive?
When I flew to and from OSH last year, I told myself that would replace
Meigs as my emergency landing area.

[BTIZ]

it's to keep the light aircraft out of range of the stormtroopers mayorD had
posted along the city boundaries... how'd that movie go?? "Escape from NY"

BT

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS
before
> launching today.
>
> 3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
> UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
> INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
> EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT
OPERATIONS
> ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
> (415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE
RADIAL/
> 14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION
OF
> THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
> 13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
> ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME)
THEN
> NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD
(415716N/874010W
> OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO LAKE
> MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
> THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE
POINT
> OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL
PEREZ,
> 773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS
THE
> FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y
>
>

[BTIZ]

the beach is bare in the winter time.. put it down on the beach..

BT

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Rob Perkins
> > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:01:12 GMT, Roger Halstead
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >When over the shoreline I'm usually more than twice that height.
> > >Course if the engine quit....
> >
> > ...you'd declare an emergency and the TFR could go hang itself anyway.
> > Not that there's any good place to land within that space. From 6000
> > overlying that area you'd probably just make for Meigs and try for the
> > taxiway, right?
>
>
> What do they call that multi-lane stretch of road, Shoreline Drive?
> When I flew to and from OSH last year, I told myself that would replace
> Meigs as my emergency landing area.

[David Reinhart]

How much is left at Meigs? The camera on the planetarium has been
disabled for months, so there's no way to remotely get a peek. On the
other hand, news reports have been saying the park people have no money to
finish the rest of the demolition.

Dave Reinhart



> Course if the engine quit....
>
> ...you'd declare an emergency and the TFR could go hang itself anyway.
> Not that there's any good place to land within that space. From 6000
> overlying that area you'd probably just make for Meigs and try for the
> taxiway, right?
>
> Rob

[EDR]

In article <R1IGb.40583$m83.23257@fed1read01>, BTIZ
> wrote:

> the beach is bare in the winter time.. put it down on the beach..

I wouldn't count on it... it most likely is strewn with huge chunks of
ice.

[BTIZ]

ahh... true.. huge blocks of ice.. or.. huge blocks of moving metal.. cars..
on the 4 lane..
BT

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> In article <R1IGb.40583$m83.23257@fed1read01>, BTIZ
> > wrote:
>
> > the beach is bare in the winter time.. put it down on the beach..
>
> I wouldn't count on it... it most likely is strewn with huge chunks of
> ice.

[Chuck Gerlach]

This is ludicrous. I live in the far, far western Chicago suburbs and I
couldn't tell you where Olive Park is. And the C172 I fly out of DPA doesn't
have a GPS or a DME. From the air I couldn't find Ashland or Irving Park
Roads. Unless I fly low enough to read street signs.

Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references? I
had to pull out the State Farm Road Atlas to find references to these names.
(Also found Olive Park. It's between the Water Filtration Plant and the
beach just north of Navy Pier.)

Once again Chicago is an embarrassment. Even if there was a creditable
threat, the size and description of this TFR does very little if anything to
lessen the risk. I'm sorry. All this has been said before. It's just
frustrating.

Chuck Gerlach


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:N0IGb.40580$m83.4399@fed1read01...
> it's to keep the light aircraft out of range of the stormtroopers mayorD
had
> posted along the city boundaries... how'd that movie go?? "Escape from
NY"
>
> BT
>
> "Ben Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS
> before
> > launching today.
> >
> > 3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
> > UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
> > INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
> > EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT
> OPERATIONS
> > ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
> > (415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE
> RADIAL/
> > 14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION
> OF
> > THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
> > 13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
> > ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME)
> THEN
> > NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD
> (415716N/874010W
> > OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO
LAKE
> > MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
> > THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE
> POINT
> > OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL
> PEREZ,
> > 773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS
> THE
> > FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN
> >
> > --
> > Ben
> > C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y
> >
> >
>
>

[EDR]

In article <foLGb.41369$m83.27555@fed1read01>, BTIZ
> wrote:

> ahh... true.. huge blocks of ice.. or.. huge blocks of moving metal.. cars..
> on the 4 lane..

Do the authorities allow parking on that road?
Moving vehicles can get out of your way or you can land between them.

[Jay Honeck]

> Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
> expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references?

Yes, but this is apparently not uncommon. Flying out of Meigs shortly
before it was bulldozed, talking to (I think) Chicago Approach, they
referenced the "Eisenhower Expressway" in their instructions to us. (As in
"don't fly west of the Ike")

When we responded that we had no idea where that was, they gave us vectors.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:27:07 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>Yes, but this is apparently not uncommon. Flying out of Meigs shortly
>before it was bulldozed, talking to (I think) Chicago Approach, they
>referenced the "Eisenhower Expressway" in their instructions to us. (As in
>"don't fly west of the Ike")
>
>When we responded that we had no idea where that was, they gave us vectors.

I found it very common when flying in the US that everybody and his
neighbor expected me to be familiar with the area - in *every* area I've
been to.
In Phoenix: "fly over this and that golf course ..."
In Lost Wages: "fly directly to this and that casino ..."
In Grand Canyon Intl: "fly over the third tree abeam the railroad-bridge to
Winslow, ya know! ..."

and so on ...

#m
--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Ben Smith]

> In Phoenix: "fly over this and that golf course ..."
> In Lost Wages: "fly directly to this and that casino ..."
> In Grand Canyon Intl: "fly over the third tree abeam the railroad-bridge
to
> Winslow, ya know! ..."

LOL, isn't that the truth. Flying into DuPage once (at night) I was told to
fly direct to the airport, and report crossing 'The River'. I had a pax
with me who was able to see what we thought was a river, though. :) If I
were by myself, I would have asked for a different reporting point..

[Ron Natalie]

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message ...
> > In Phoenix: "fly over this and that golf course ..."
> > In Lost Wages: "fly directly to this and that casino ..."
> > In Grand Canyon Intl: "fly over the third tree abeam the railroad-bridge
> to
> > Winslow, ya know! ..."
>
> LOL, isn't that the truth. Flying into DuPage once (at night) I was told to
> fly direct to the airport, and report crossing 'The River'. I had a pax
> with me who was able to see what we thought was a river, though. :) If I
> were by myself, I would have asked for a different reporting point..
>
There's a simple response for this:
Podunk Tower, Cessna 123 Unfamiliar with the area.

That usually results in
Cessna 123, report 3 mile final
or some such more generic position.

On my Solo XC into CYS, they told me to report "the flame." I hadn't
a clue and told them that. They said don't worry, I'd see it. Sure enough,
my flight track took me over one of these vent flames in the refinery adjacent
to the airport. Not much below my altitude either.

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 12:24:37 -0600, Ben Smith wrote:

>> In Phoenix: "fly over this and that golf course ..."
>> In Lost Wages: "fly directly to this and that casino ..."
>> In Grand Canyon Intl: "fly over the third tree abeam the railroad-bridge
>to
>> Winslow, ya know! ..."
>
>LOL, isn't that the truth.

yes.
or in Chandler, AZ: "report when Hamilton High in sight"
or in Falcon Field: "fly north of the water tower"

and I have to correct myself. the railroad from Grand Canyon goes to
Williams and not to Winslow.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Martin Hotze]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 18:47:20 GMT, Richard Riley wrote:

>The one that throws the out of towners is the Blue Whale. Once they
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that's what makes me thinking .... flying IMHO is not something restricted
to the local area, but they use only to locals known checkpoints.

it also makes it unsafe for the unfamiliar to the area pilot: when most of
the pilots report the only to them known reporting points the unfamiliar
pilot can't get the picture.

#m

--
http://www.declareyourself.com/fyr_candidates.php
http://www.subterrane.com/bush.shtml

[Brian Burger]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003, Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
> > expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references?
>
> Yes, but this is apparently not uncommon. Flying out of Meigs shortly
> before it was bulldozed, talking to (I think) Chicago Approach, they
> referenced the "Eisenhower Expressway" in their instructions to us. (As in
> "don't fly west of the Ike")
>
> When we responded that we had no idea where that was, they gave us vectors.

I've told this story before, but it bears repeating... I was flying in
Vancouver Terminal airspace earlier in 2003, had just contacted Terminal,
and was told to head for "Something" Beach. I had a quick look at my VTA
chart - no "Something" Beach that I could see at a quick look. Lots of
other flagged VFR Reporting Points, though... Did the the 'unfamiliar'
thing, got a vector - and then realized that Something Beach was on the
chart - in tiny print, right NEXT to a fully marked VFR Reporting Point
with a different name... Growl mutter mutter...

Brian - PP-ASEL/Night -

[Rob Perkins]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:47:24 GMT, "Chuck Gerlach" >
wrote:

>
>Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
>expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references? I
>had to pull out the State Farm Road Atlas to find references to these names.

I think the references themselves are remarkably provincial. As a
visitor to Chicago I just plain *couldn't tell* what the radio traffic
reports were about, even though I knew the expressway numbers around
the area.

And you forgot the EDENS.

Rob :-)

[Nathan Young]

EDR > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Rob Perkins
> > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 25 Dec 2003 00:01:12 GMT, Roger Halstead
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >When over the shoreline I'm usually more than twice that height.
> > >Course if the engine quit....
> >
> > ...you'd declare an emergency and the TFR could go hang itself anyway.
> > Not that there's any good place to land within that space. From 6000
> > overlying that area you'd probably just make for Meigs and try for the
> > taxiway, right?
>
>
> What do they call that multi-lane stretch of road, Shoreline Drive?
> When I flew to and from OSH last year, I told myself that would replace
> Meigs as my emergency landing area.


LSD, Lakeshore Drive.

[Gary Drescher]

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Nice! Hopefully anyone travelling this popular route checked NOTAMS
before
> launching today.

Like the Chicago TFR a couple of years ago, this one lets you fly within
2000' of the Sears Tower, just as you could do in the absence of the TFR!
And unlike when Meigs was around, you don't even have to talk to ATC.

--Gary

> 3/2133 (#2) IL.. FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS CHICAGO, IL. EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY
> UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY
> INSTRUCTIONS, EXCEPT FOR MEDEVAC, LAW ENFORCEMENT, RESCUE/RECOVERY,
> EMERGENCY EVACUATION AND FIRE FIGHTING OPERATIONS, ALL VFR FLIGHT
OPERATIONS
> ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN AN AREA BEGINNING ON THE LAKE MICHIGAN SHORE LINE
> (415232N/ 873658W OR THE CHICAGO O''HARE /ORD/ VOR/DME 115.4 DEGREE
RADIAL/
> 14.6 DME), THEN WEST VIA THE EISENHOWER EXPRESSWAY TO THE INTER- SECTION
OF
> THE DAN RYAN EXPRESSWAY (415232N/873844W OR THE ORD 118 DEGREE RADIAL AT
> 13.4 DME) THEN NORTH VIA THE DAN RYAN/ KENNEDY TO THE INTERSECTION OF
> ASHLAND AVENUE (415454N/874004W OR ORD 110.2 DEGREE RADIAL AT 11.5 DME)
THEN
> NORTH VIA ASHLAND TO THE INTER- SECTION OF IRVING PARK ROAD
(415716N/874010W
> OR ORD 098.6 DEGREE RADIAL AT 10.7 DME) THEN EAST VIA IRVING PARK TO LAKE
> MICHIGAN SHORELINE (415718/873828W OR ORD 097.4 DEGREE RADIAL AT 12 DME)
> THEN SOUTH VIA THE SHORELINE EXCLUDING OLIVE PARK AND NAVY PIER TO THE
POINT
> OF BEGINNING AT AND BELOW 3000 FEET AGL UNLESS AUTHORIZED BY ATC. AL
PEREZ,
> 773-838-0677, IS THE POINT OF CONTACT. ELGIN TRACON, (847) 608-5654, IS
THE
> FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y
>
>

[Chuck Gerlach]

I think its one thing to have reporting points that are confusing and quite
another to use these points in a TFR NOTAM. You can ask for help when in
the air and given a "unique" reporting point. Who do you ask for
clarification of a NOTAM? Unless you are talking to a FSS with local
Chicago knowledge, you are out of luck.

Another interesting point is how does ATC know where the TFR is? Does ATC
have streets on their scopes?

It's all silly and an encrediable waste. It doesn't make me or anyone else
any safer. Another example of perception being more important than reality.

Chuck Gerlach

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 05:47:24 GMT, "Chuck Gerlach" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Does anyone else think references to the EISENHOWER, DAN RYAN and KENNEDY
> >expressways are silly since aviation charts don't have these references?
I
> >had to pull out the State Farm Road Atlas to find references to these
names.
>
> I think the references themselves are remarkably provincial. As a
> visitor to Chicago I just plain *couldn't tell* what the radio traffic
> reports were about, even though I knew the expressway numbers around
> the area.
>
> And you forgot the EDENS.
>
> Rob :-)

[Dave Stadt]

"Chuck Gerlach" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I think its one thing to have reporting points that are confusing and
quite
> another to use these points in a TFR NOTAM. You can ask for help when in
> the air and given a "unique" reporting point. Who do you ask for
> clarification of a NOTAM? Unless you are talking to a FSS with local
> Chicago knowledge, you are out of luck.
>
> Another interesting point is how does ATC know where the TFR is? Does ATC
> have streets on their scopes?
>
> It's all silly and an encrediable waste. It doesn't make me or anyone
else
> any safer. Another example of perception being more important than
reality.
>
> Chuck Gerlach

Daley isn't much when it comes to common sense or intelligence.