audio of VFR pilot in IFR condictions

[Aardvark]

http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3

[Rob Perkins]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:34:45 -0500, Aardvark
> wrote:

>http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3

Talk about dodging a bullet. Whew!

Rob

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:34:45 -0500, Aardvark
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3

While this FSS controller promotional audio clip seems to provide a
glimpse at a very frightened pilot's fear of death, I failed to find
any meaningful assistance provided by FAA personnel other than some
dubious control input suggestions. It seems the pilot was able to
regain control of his aircraft and composure merely as a result of
having the (false?) reassurance of contact with another human.
Interesting stuff.

[Roger Long]

Great stuff!

Here's a picture of the airplane (scroll down):

http://www.directwfc.com/fleet.htm

--
Roger Long

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Interesting link.

What confuses me is that the purpose of the clip (presumably) is to show an
example of exceptional assistance from a controller, yet, while passing the
pilot to a controller on another frequency the original controller can be
heard saying that he is passing on a pilot who is squawking 1200 when in
fact they had asked him (several times and he eventually complied) to change
his squawk to 7700. Eventually they corrected this error.

The other thing that bugs me is that the VFR pilot (like another poster has
already said) really received very little useful control input (aside from
the first instruction to break the stall) and instrument interpretation
instructions. At one point the VFR pilot was simply told to "just fly
straight and level" when the pilot found himself in IMC again. I can think
of a plethora of other suggestions that might have been made to the VFR
pilot, on how exactly he should interpret 'straight and level' using his
instruments and more importantly how to make turns at a bank and turn rate
that is appropriate to being in IMC. All of which could be explained
quickly without overwhelming the pilot.

I was surprised to learn that one of the controllers at another airport I've
flown to in the past, actually had never been a pilot NOR ever BEEN IN a
G.A. aircraft.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Roger Long]

I thought is wasn't very helpful for them to ask him to fiddle with his
transponder and switch frequencies, last thing a pilot who is struggling to
maintain control needs is distraction.

I looked up the plane, (see link above). It was a 172P so I wonder if he
really was rolling or only felt like it. If it had been any other airplane,
this tape probably wouldn't have been of such a successful outcome.

--
Roger Long
Cecil E. Chapman > wrote in message
m...
> Interesting link.
>
> What confuses me is that the purpose of the clip (presumably) is to show
an
> example of exceptional assistance from a controller, yet, while passing
the
> pilot to a controller on another frequency the original controller can be
> heard saying that he is passing on a pilot who is squawking 1200 when in
> fact they had asked him (several times and he eventually complied) to
change
> his squawk to 7700. Eventually they corrected this error.
>
> The other thing that bugs me is that the VFR pilot (like another poster
has
> already said) really received very little useful control input (aside from
> the first instruction to break the stall) and instrument interpretation
> instructions. At one point the VFR pilot was simply told to "just fly
> straight and level" when the pilot found himself in IMC again. I can
think
> of a plethora of other suggestions that might have been made to the VFR
> pilot, on how exactly he should interpret 'straight and level' using his
> instruments and more importantly how to make turns at a bank and turn rate
> that is appropriate to being in IMC. All of which could be explained
> quickly without overwhelming the pilot.
>
> I was surprised to learn that one of the controllers at another airport
I've
> flown to in the past, actually had never been a pilot NOR ever BEEN IN a
> G.A. aircraft.
>
> --
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil
> PP-ASEL
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text
at:
> www.bayareapilot.com
>
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
>
> "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
> this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> - Cecil Day Lewis -
>
>

[Chris Schmelzer]

Simple example of what gets people killed in any sort of risky activity
(be it rock climbing, mountaineering, scuba diving, etc..)

PANIC!

The guy was completely freaked out initally in the IFR, all he had to do
was look at the damn instruments and put himself in level flight and
wait for direction..

Geez!

This is why you need to train and THINK about your response to
emergencies so you don't turn into a COMPLETE freaking idiot in an
emergency...



(anyhow, I wasn't all that impressed with the ATC in the intial
emergency anyhow!)

[Michael 182]

"Chris Schmelzer" > wrote in message
...
> Simple example of what gets people killed in any sort of risky activity
> (be it rock climbing, mountaineering, scuba diving, etc..)
>
> PANIC!
>
> The guy was completely freaked out initally in the IFR, all he had to do
> was look at the damn instruments and put himself in level flight and
> wait for direction..
>
> Geez!

There are fatal accidents in IFR by experienced pilots who get disoriented.
This assumption that returning to straight and level is simple and obvious
is frighteningly naive.


>
> This is why you need to train and THINK about your response to
> emergencies so you don't turn into a COMPLETE freaking idiot in an
> emergency...
>

Well luckily, you are completely sure you'll never panic...

I agree the pilot on the tape did a lousy job getting into the spin. That's
part of the point - recognize that you might do the same thing. Being in a
spin inside the clouds and having to recover by insturments sounds pretty
damn tough to me.

Michael

[Larry Fransson]

On 2003-12-25 15:23:45 -0800, "Cecil E. Chapman" > said:

> The other thing that bugs me is that the VFR pilot (like another poster has
> already said) really received very little useful control input (aside from
> the first instruction to break the stall) and instrument interpretation
> instructions. At one point the VFR pilot was simply told to "just fly
> straight and level" when the pilot found himself in IMC again. I can think
> of a plethora of other suggestions that might have been made to the VFR
> pilot, on how exactly he should interpret 'straight and level' using his
> instruments and more importantly how to make turns at a bank and turn rate
> that is appropriate to being in IMC. All of which could be explained
> quickly without overwhelming the pilot.

There's no requirement for ATS types to know anything about flying airplanes, and they should not try to give flight instruction over the radio. For similar reasons, I do not attempt to provide weather briefings or radar vectors.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[John T]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
m
>
> I was surprised to learn that one of the controllers at another
> airport I've flown to in the past, actually had never been a pilot
> NOR ever BEEN IN a G.A. aircraft.

Why was that surprising?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[John T]

"Chris Schmelzer" > wrote in message

>
> Simple example of what gets people killed in any sort of risky
> activity (be it rock climbing, mountaineering, scuba diving, etc..)
>
> PANIC!

Quite true.

> ...all he had to
> do was look at the damn instruments and put himself in level flight
> and wait for direction..

It's very easy to judge when you're not the one in his situation. Even
instrument rated pilots have been known to lose control after venturing into
IMC.

> This is why you need to train and THINK about your response to
> emergencies so you don't turn into a COMPLETE freaking idiot in an
> emergency...

Luckily that (turning into an "idiot") will never happen to you, right?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Nick]

"John T" > wrote in message m>...
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> m
> >
> > I was surprised to learn that one of the controllers at another
> > airport I've flown to in the past, actually had never been a pilot
> > NOR ever BEEN IN a G.A. aircraft.
>
> Why was that surprising?


Hi, I don't have a pilot's license and nor have I started training for
one, but does the radio chatter usually sound this clear? I was
discouraged a little bit earlier in the week when I was listening in
to some ATC that I couldn't understand! Thanks...

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> Hi, I don't have a pilot's license and nor have I started training for
> one, but does the radio chatter usually sound this clear? I was
> discouraged a little bit earlier in the week when I was listening in
> to some ATC that I couldn't understand! Thanks...

No, it doesn't usually sound this clear. But the only the first section of
the recording was recorded from the radio. The middle section was between
two different ATC facilities, and was thus took place over a dedicated
telephone line. The final section was recorded when the pilot called in for
a weather briefing later that day.

The radio section did seem remarkably clear. It's possible that it has been
run through some filters to clean it up a bit. Maybe the pilot happened to
be right on top of receiving station for the particular facility.

The radio is almost completely impossible to understand when you first start
to listen. The sound quality isn't great, people talk very quickly,
standard radio procedures are soundly ignored, and many phases are
abbreviated in some way. If you happen to know any pilots, it might help to
have one of them listen in with you and translate a bit, but even that isn't
all that necessary.

The good news is that once you begin to get used to the things that are
commonly said on the radio, it will begin to make much more sense to you.
Then when you begin your training, you will be way ahead of the pack when it
comes to radio work.

You are going to begin flight training, aren't you? You know you want to do
it!

[Dennis O'Connor]

ATC trainees are taught that the pilot is responsible for the safety of the
airplane and the controller is responsible for the safety of the airport -
period...
Denny
"Larry Fransson" > wrote in message
news:2003122517430716807%lfransson@comcastnet...
> On 2003-12-25 15:23:45 -0800, "Cecil E. Chapman"
> said:
>
> > The other thing that bugs me is that the VFR pilot (like another poster
has
> > already said) really received very little useful control input (aside
from
> > the first instruction to break the stall) and instrument interpretation
> > instructions. At one point the VFR pilot was simply told to "just fly
> > straight and level" when the pilot found himself in IMC again. I can
think
> > of a plethora of other suggestions that might have been made to the VFR
> > pilot, on how exactly he should interpret 'straight and level' using his
> > instruments and more importantly how to make turns at a bank and turn
rate
> > that is appropriate to being in IMC. All of which could be explained
> > quickly without overwhelming the pilot.
>
> There's no requirement for ATS types to know anything about flying
airplanes, and they should not try to give flight instruction over the
radio. For similar reasons, I do not attempt to provide weather briefings
or radar vectors.
>
> --
> Larry Fransson
> Seattle, WA

[December]

In article >, Larry Dighera says...
>
>On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:34:45 -0500, Aardvark
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:
>
>>http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
>
>While this FSS controller promotional audio clip seems to provide a
>glimpse at a very frightened pilot's fear of death, I failed to find
>any meaningful assistance provided by FAA personnel other than some
>dubious control input suggestions. It seems the pilot was able to
>regain control of his aircraft and composure merely as a result of
>having the (false?) reassurance of contact with another human.
>Interesting stuff.
>
It also goes to show that flying really can't be _that_ dangerous at all. Look
at all the almost winners of Darwin awards that are still out there alive and
flying today.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 08:31:34 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>ATC trainees are taught that the pilot is responsible for the safety of the
>airplane and the controller is responsible for the safety of the airport -
>period...

Perhaps. But that would run counter to FAA Order 7110.65's mandate
for ATC to issue Safety Alerts:
http://www2.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp2/atc0201.html#2-1-6

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:

> On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 23:34:45 -0500, Aardvark
> > wrote in Message-Id:
> >:
>
>> http://www.naats.org/docs/flightassist.mp3
>
> While this FSS controller promotional audio clip seems to provide a
> glimpse at a very frightened pilot's fear of death, I failed to find
> any meaningful assistance provided by FAA personnel other than some
> dubious control input suggestions. It seems the pilot was able to
> regain control of his aircraft and composure merely as a result of
> having the (false?) reassurance of contact with another human.
> Interesting stuff.
>
If the pilot had been unable to regain control, the rest would have been
moot. Once control was regained, the guy was still lost, with no idea of
which way to turn to get into VFR conditions. To me, that was the
meaningful assistance provided by the FAA personnel, and I'm hard pressed
to think of a reasonable substitute.

Regards & happy holidays,

Neil

[Newps]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

> ATC trainees are taught that the pilot is responsible for the safety of the
> airplane and the controller is responsible for the safety of the airport -
> period...

If you are VFR. If you are IFR I also am largely responsible for your
safety as well.

[Cecil E. Chapman]

> Why was that surprising?
>

It isn't a surprise, 'now', but when I was a primary student (and learned
that there was no requirement that controllers to be pilots too) I was
surprised, because I had just presumed that they 'must' be pilots, that's
all....

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Cecil E. Chapman]

> Why was that surprising?
>
> --
> John T

Me again..... I just think that it would be prudent to have controllers
that were also pilots, just as it is prudent for (at least it is required by
law, in parts of California) food service workers to have some training in
handling choking problems.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Dan Luke]

"Cecil E. Chapman" wrote:
> I just think that it would be prudent to have controllers
> that were also pilots,

Do you think it would be practical for the FAA to make it a requirement?
The gov't would have to bear the cost of initial and recurrent training,
insurance, et c. for thousands of controllers, not to mention the
typically bloated federal overhead of administering such a thing. One
shudders to think...
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Tobias Schnell]

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 17:30:03 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>Do you think it would be practical for the FAA to make it a requirement?
>The gov't would have to bear the cost of initial and recurrent training,
>insurance, et c. for thousands of controllers, not to mention the
>typically bloated federal overhead of administering such a thing. One
>shudders to think...

Where I live (Germany), controllers at least get a significant amount
of training in a simulator and take several jumpseat rides on airline
flights.

Do they have similar requirements in the US, too?

Tobias

[Dan Luke]

"Tobias Schnell" wrote:
> Where I live (Germany), controllers at least get a significant amount
> of training in a simulator and take several jumpseat rides on airline
> flights.
>
> Do they have similar requirements in the US, too?

I believe not. There was a familiarization program whereby controllers
could, at their option, take jumpseat rides on airline flights, but I
don't know if it is still allowed after 9/11.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Andrew Gideon]

Dan Luke wrote:

>> Do they have similar requirements in the US, too?
>
> I believe not. There was a familiarization program whereby controllers
> could, at their option, take jumpseat rides on airline flights, but I
> don't know if it is still allowed after 9/11.

At an AOPA seminar a while back, they played a recording of someone that had
experienced a vacuum failure in IMC (this recording might too be available
somewhere on the 'net). It included the dialog between the controller to
whom the pilot was speaking and another controller (or perhaps a facility
manager or some such).

The controller to whom the pilot was speaking was obviously completely
unaware of the nature - of the seriousness - of the failure. It was as if
the pilot were unable to keep his aircraft clean because of the lack of a
vacuum.

But the recording's "lesson" was that we as pilots need to be completely
clear with controllers. Don't assume, for example, that they're familiar
with aircraft failure modes. If you've lost instruments, say that you've
lost intruments (and which!). This may still not be completely understood,
but it should at least sound more serious than "vacuum failure" to someone
that thinks a vacuum is only a household appliance.

- Andrew

[Chip Jones]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
...
> > Why was that surprising?
> >
> > --
> > John T
>
> Me again..... I just think that it would be prudent to have controllers
> that were also pilots, just as it is prudent for (at least it is required
by
> law, in parts of California) food service workers to have some training in
> handling choking problems.
>

Good pilots don't necessarily make good controllers, and visa versa.
Different mental and physical skill sets are required to do the jobs. In my
experience, most people, most pilots included, don't seem to have what it
takes to do the radar ATC part. Not to mention the non-radar geometry and
math part.

It is also my experience that an overwhelming majority of the persons
employed as air traffic controllers, especially in the higher-level,
higher-complexity radar facilities, don't have what it takes to be aviators.
They either lack apptitude, coordination or above all (and most sadly) even
any interest in personally piloting an aircraft. Many of them don't even
*like* airplanes...

Chip, ZTL

[John Galban]

Andrew Gideon > wrote in message e.com>...
>
> But the recording's "lesson" was that we as pilots need to be completely
> clear with controllers. Don't assume, for example, that they're familiar
> with aircraft failure modes. If you've lost instruments, say that you've
> lost intruments (and which!). This may still not be completely understood,
> but it should at least sound more serious than "vacuum failure" to someone
> that thinks a vacuum is only a household appliance.
>

Excellent point. Several years ago I told a controller I was
inbound with a mag failure and the remaining mag was a little rough.
He didn't have a clue about what I was saying, and told me so. When I
told him that one of my engine's ignition systems was dead and the
backup didn't sound too healthy, he got the picture right away.
Cleared the pattern, cleared me for any runway and offered to roll the
fire trucks.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dan Luke]

"Chip Jones" wrote:
> Many of them don't even *like* airplanes...

That fairly describes a controller acquaintence of mine. He loves his
job, but wouldn't get in a light airplane unless you forced him at
gunpoint. He is virtually clueless about airplanes and flying, and
thinks another controller at his facility who became a pilot is nuts.

He's an extreme case, but most of the controllers I've met are somewhat
indifferent to aviation outside of their profession. Pilots should never
assume the controller they're talking to understands technical aviation
terms. They *all* understand "emergency," though.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Andrew Gideon]

John Galban wrote:


> Excellent point. Several years ago I told a controller I was
> inbound with a mag failure and the remaining mag was a little rough.
> He didn't have a clue about what I was saying, and told me so. When I
> told him that one of my engine's ignition systems was dead and the
> backup didn't sound too healthy, he got the picture right away.

You're fortunate. The controller in the recording I heard at that seminar
did think she understood...and was mistaken.

No, that's not quite correct. It was obvious from her conversation with the
next controller that she knew she did not. But she didn't care enough to
get a clarification...or she didn't think the clarification would change
anything.

What can we expect from ATC in the case of a gyro or vacuum failure? Will
they know to avoid altitude changes and turns concurrently, for example, or
do we need to apply "unable"?

Obviously, the latter is always available to us. But I'm curious as to
whether ATC is trained in matters such as this. They are taught, for
example, about no-gyro turns, so there's *something* on this topic in their
training. How extensive?

- Andrew

[Paul Sengupta]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
m...
> I was surprised to learn that one of the controllers at another airport
I've
> flown to in the past, actually had never been a pilot NOR ever BEEN IN a
> G.A. aircraft.

I think here in the UK a controller has to do some PPL training. Most
controllers I know have their PPLs. One I talked to hated flying and
did his 20 hours (if I remember correctly) just because he had to do it.

Paul