Weight & Balance Question

[Harry Gordon]

I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for some
alternative suggestions.

Tomorrow, I want to take my daughter and son-in-law on a flight in a C172M.
We will be flying to an airport almost 50 NM from our departure point. The
problem is this: with a full fuel load, we will be 89 pounds over the max
(2300 lbs). The CG is no problem. The only issue is the weight. I don't want
to leave one of them behind, and I certainly don't want to leave myself
behind :-))).

I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane. Should it be full
and I don't have the needed 15 gals of fuel dumped, should I be concerned
about being 90 lbs over?

Please be nice in your answers. I feel like an idiot even asking because I
am concerned and if it wasn't for the fact they are visiting us for
Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at the
same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the name of
having fun.

Thanks.

Harry

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Harry Gordon" > said:
>Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at the
>same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the name of
>having fun.

Somebody tell Harry Gordon that somebody has forged a posting in his name.

If I *were* to contemplate doing such a thing as flying overweight, I sure
as hell wouldn't put my own name on a public admission that I'd
contemplated it ahead of time. If something untoward happens, even if it
were unrelated to the weight and balance or fuel, and the FAA or NTSB
found this post, you could bet that you'll never fly again.


--
"The magic of usenet has never been its technology; and, only in part, its
reach. Its magic -- its power -- is based on the very real human connections
that form 'round its threads of conversation... the relationships that are
kindled, flamed and, on occasion, extinguished and mourned." -deCadmus

[tony roberts]

> I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for some
> alternative suggestions.

There are no alternatives to the legal answer.

> I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
> won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane.

This isn't a problem. If it is flying tomorrow before you fly, you phone
the FBO ahead of time and ask them to ensure that the plane is not
refuelled.
If it isn't flown before you fly you are left with 3 choices.
1. Pay for the excess gas to be siphoned out,
2. Fly it solo until you have burned off the gas.
3. Take the passengers one at a time

What you don't do is fly it 90lb overweight. There are a lot of reasons
for that -
It is illegal - not only will you be penalised if you are caught, if you
crash on takeoff you won't even be insured,
You don't know the characteristics of the aircraft at that loading -
stall speed, stall characteristics, your yellow, green and white arcs no
longer give accurate information, and if you have a problem and have to
land soon after takeoff you will be landing overweight which can damage
the aircraft.

In short, it is not one of your better ideas :)



Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Harry Gordon]

Thank you, both Paul and Tony. Even when I pressed the "enter" key I was
kicking myself for even asking. There is no way that I would seriously
consider much less actually fly overweight. I guess I was just grasping at
some straws given the outstanding suggestions to other questions I have
gleaned from this newsgroup.

Sorry to waste your time and emotions :-). No further responses are needed.
I will NOT take that flight being overweight. FOR THE RECORD: I AM NOT
FLYING OVERWEIGHT!!!! (Is that good enough, Paul?)

Incidentally, I did a GOOGLE search on this and other newsgroups on this
same subject, and found almost the same question with numerous different
answers/suggestions/ideas. So, I'm not breaking any new ground for
discussion with this. BTW, the bottom line was "dump some fuel".

Thanks again.

Harry

[Harry Gordon]

Someone once said that the only dumb question was the one not asked.
Generally, if one person has a question, someone else also has the same
question but is "afraid" to ask it. Well, perhaps someone out there in
"flying land" who reads this newsgroup is considering flying overweight.
Perhaps you should consider the answers I got. Just an after-thought.

Safe flying, everyone.

Harry

[Mateo]

89 pounds overweight? Sounds like this one...
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X05676&key=1

Harry Gordon wrote:

> I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for some
> alternative suggestions.
>
> Tomorrow, I want to take my daughter and son-in-law on a flight in a C172M.
> We will be flying to an airport almost 50 NM from our departure point. The
> problem is this: with a full fuel load, we will be 89 pounds over the max
> (2300 lbs). The CG is no problem. The only issue is the weight. I don't want
> to leave one of them behind, and I certainly don't want to leave myself
> behind :-))).
>
> I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
> won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane. Should it be full
> and I don't have the needed 15 gals of fuel dumped, should I be concerned
> about being 90 lbs over?
>
> Please be nice in your answers. I feel like an idiot even asking because I
> am concerned and if it wasn't for the fact they are visiting us for
> Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at the
> same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the name of
> having fun.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Harry
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

when you least expect it.. the extra pounds will come up and bite you..

any other day.. and the extra weight would not have even been noticed..

when ever flying beyond the recommendations of the POH, you are now a Test
Pilot, without the knowledge of what being a test pilot means, nor the
training to safely explore.. where man has gone before.. but not documented
it.

One interesting phase of "test pilot" is "envelope expansion"

BT

"Mateo" > wrote in message
...
> 89 pounds overweight? Sounds like this one...
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X05676&key=1
>
> Harry Gordon wrote:
>
> > I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for
some
> > alternative suggestions.
> >
> > Tomorrow, I want to take my daughter and son-in-law on a flight in a
C172M.
> > We will be flying to an airport almost 50 NM from our departure point.
The
> > problem is this: with a full fuel load, we will be 89 pounds over the
max
> > (2300 lbs). The CG is no problem. The only issue is the weight. I don't
want
> > to leave one of them behind, and I certainly don't want to leave myself
> > behind :-))).
> >
> > I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
> > won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane. Should it be
full
> > and I don't have the needed 15 gals of fuel dumped, should I be
concerned
> > about being 90 lbs over?
> >
> > Please be nice in your answers. I feel like an idiot even asking because
I
> > am concerned and if it wasn't for the fact they are visiting us for
> > Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at
the
> > same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the name
of
> > having fun.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Harry
> >
> >
> >
>

[Harry Gordon]

And believe me, I "ain't" no test pilot! - I'm doing good just to be a new
PP :-).

Harry

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:CnLGb.41368$m83.16083@fed1read01...
> when you least expect it.. the extra pounds will come up and bite you..
>
> any other day.. and the extra weight would not have even been noticed..
>
> when ever flying beyond the recommendations of the POH, you are now a Test
> Pilot, without the knowledge of what being a test pilot means, nor the
> training to safely explore.. where man has gone before.. but not
documented
> it.
>
> One interesting phase of "test pilot" is "envelope expansion"
>
> BT
>
> "Mateo" > wrote in message
> ...
> > 89 pounds overweight? Sounds like this one...
> > http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X05676&key=1
> >
> > Harry Gordon wrote:
> >
> > > I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for
> some
> > > alternative suggestions.
> > >
> > > Tomorrow, I want to take my daughter and son-in-law on a flight in a
> C172M.
> > > We will be flying to an airport almost 50 NM from our departure point.
> The
> > > problem is this: with a full fuel load, we will be 89 pounds over the
> max
> > > (2300 lbs). The CG is no problem. The only issue is the weight. I
don't
> want
> > > to leave one of them behind, and I certainly don't want to leave
myself
> > > behind :-))).
> > >
> > > I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but
I
> > > won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane. Should it be
> full
> > > and I don't have the needed 15 gals of fuel dumped, should I be
> concerned
> > > about being 90 lbs over?
> > >
> > > Please be nice in your answers. I feel like an idiot even asking
because
> I
> > > am concerned and if it wasn't for the fact they are visiting us for
> > > Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at
> the
> > > same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the
name
> of
> > > having fun.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Harry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>

[Harry Gordon]

Gene,

You're absolutely correct. I wasn't worried about the fuel being burned
during the flight. What my concern was the initial take-off weight. I knew
that the only way of getting rid of the extra weight was to lessen the fuel
load, which is what you're saying.

I did some checking and found out the 172 I will be flying was flown for
several hours yesterday, was not scheduled to be flown today, and I am the
only one with it tomorrow. I am hoping they did not fill the tanks when they
returned. If they did or if there is still too much fuel (weight), I am
going to scrap the flight. I'm not going to worry about trying to get some
fuel drained. Given the background for this flight, I don't think it would
be worth the hassle.

This is the first time that I have ever had to fly when W&B became an issue.
Thanks for your comments, they pretty much cover my thought processes during
my initial evaluation of the situation.

Harry

> The easy answer to this one is:
>
> You don't have to take off over gross because you are only going to
> burn about 10 gals of fuel (in 55 miles) plus, oh, say, another 10....
> that's about 120 pounds of fuel. What you *DON'T* have to carry is
> about another 16 gals of fuel or about 96 pounds! So...... you'll be
> legal with respect to gross and CG, if you don't take what you don't
> need.
>
> PS....
>
> If you were a 6'-2" flight instructor flying any of the training
> aircraft with long range tanks out of an FBO that automatically tops
> off the A/C, you'd know the drill.......... just say, "NO."
>

[Greg Esres]

<<Safe flying, everyone.>>

I have a wonderful device called "Super Siphon". Stick the end in the
tank, juggle it, and fuel starts flowing out.

I've used this a *lot*, and keep it in the trunk of my car.

[Robert Little]

I'm glad that this question has finally been addressed here. I'm really
getting tired of the flying magizines proudly flauting the W&B issue. the
latest most blauntent one that I can think of is where the 150 hp powered
Cessna 150 was featured with almost no difference between empty weight and
gross weight and yet shows the stout owner and author merrily flying off in
the air to air photos. Does the FAA just use these photo ops to help lure
borderline pilots into doing the stupid things? Shouldn't our magazine
editors/authors and such be some of our best examples instead of the other?
Do these "shining examples" make bordline pilots question the limits of the
regulations and aircraft designs? Anyone has thougths about this? R Little

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
news:nospam-3A419C.15111925122003@shawnews...
> > I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for
some
> > alternative suggestions.
>
> There are no alternatives to the legal answer.
>
> > I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
> > won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane.
>
> This isn't a problem. If it is flying tomorrow before you fly, you phone
> the FBO ahead of time and ask them to ensure that the plane is not
> refuelled.
> If it isn't flown before you fly you are left with 3 choices.
> 1. Pay for the excess gas to be siphoned out,
> 2. Fly it solo until you have burned off the gas.
> 3. Take the passengers one at a time
>
> What you don't do is fly it 90lb overweight. There are a lot of reasons
> for that -
> It is illegal - not only will you be penalised if you are caught, if you
> crash on takeoff you won't even be insured,
> You don't know the characteristics of the aircraft at that loading -
> stall speed, stall characteristics, your yellow, green and white arcs no
> longer give accurate information, and if you have a problem and have to
> land soon after takeoff you will be landing overweight which can damage
> the aircraft.
>
> In short, it is not one of your better ideas :)
>
>
>
> Tony Roberts
> PP-ASEL
> VFR OTT
> Night
> Almost Instrument :)
> Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> I have a wonderful device called "Super Siphon". Stick the end in the
> tank, juggle it, and fuel starts flowing out.

But I don't know HOW to juggle! I've tried, and I just can't do it! This
"Super Siphon" thing sounds amazing, but why do you have to juggle to make
it work? Does it matter how many other objects you are juggling at the same
time?

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> If they did or if there is still too much fuel (weight), I am
> going to scrap the flight. I'm not going to worry about trying to get some
> fuel drained. Given the background for this flight, I don't think it would
> be worth the hassle.

That's fine for this flight, but I am going to use your post to ask a
question that I've had for some time. Let's say you do need to "dump fuel",
to get the weight down. How do you do it? Does the FBO drain it for you?
What do they drain it into? What would you do if you were at an unattended
field? Can this drained fuel be saved and re-used at a later time, or do
those bad FBO people keep it?

[Dennis O'Connor]

Harry, you got lots of answers and this may be too late, but: If the plane
is full of fuel it will not take that long to drain three, 5 gallon cans of
fuel... It is a high wing and you don't even have to get dirty... Just
remember to clip a ground wire between the can and the plane while the fuel
is draining...

Good question, btw...

Cheers ... Denny
"Harry Gordon" >

[H. Adam Stevens]

"Just
> remember to clip a ground wire between the can and the plane while the
fuel
> is draining...
"

THAT bears repeating.......
over, and over, and over........
Trust me, I know.....
In my case I was filling a gas can and the arc that started the fire jumped
about 3 inches........
I had the presence of mind to put it out but the potential for burning the
gas station to the ground was right there in front of me.

=]8*O

H.
CPA S&MEL IA

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Harry, you got lots of answers and this may be too late, but: If the
plane
> is full of fuel it will not take that long to drain three, 5 gallon cans
of
> fuel... It is a high wing and you don't even have to get dirty... Just
> remember to clip a ground wire between the can and the plane while the
fuel
> is draining...
>
> Good question, btw...
>
> Cheers ... Denny
> "Harry Gordon" >
>
>

[Greg Esres]

<<why do you have to juggle to make it work? >>

Tsk, tsk, skeptics everywhere. You just need *faith*.

[Mike O'Malley]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message news:0QWGb.1558>
> That's fine for this flight, but I am going to use your post to ask a
> question that I've had for some time. Let's say you do need to "dump fuel",
> to get the weight down. How do you do it? Does the FBO drain it for you?
> What do they drain it into? What would you do if you were at an unattended
> field? Can this drained fuel be saved and re-used at a later time, or do
> those bad FBO people keep it?
>

I've done it a few times. First was at STL when all four pilots getting out of
the warrior told the line crew to just fill it to the tabs. We found the
airplane after dinner topped off. We waited while they opened the quick drains
into 5 gallon buckets. Since it was their mistake, they bought the fuel back
from us. Don't know what they did with it after that.

Another time was when I told a lineman to top off the wing tanks in a PA-12. He
also did me the service of topping off the aux tank where the back seat was
located. Only problem was didn't need, or want the extra 19 gallons, and
without the battery, they fuel couldn't be transfered out, so it was 114 pounds
of extra weight that I didn't need either. That they drained out into 5 gallon
buckets as well. And I don't know what they did with that gas either.

The only other times I've done it was when swaping wings or fuel tanks, and we
just dumped the jerry cans back into our tanks. I would assume that it would
work the same at an FBO with their rental aircraft.

[Harry Gordon]

My daughter said she would stay behind if I took her on a subsequent
flight - that resolved the W&B problem without having to worry about the
fuel. But then the fog and low clouds came in and we ended up canceling the
flight altogether.

Harry

[tony roberts]

> I'm glad that this question has finally been addressed here. I'm really
> getting tired of the flying magizines proudly flauting the W&B issue. the
> latest most blauntent one that I can think of is where the 150 hp powered
> Cessna 150 was featured with almost no difference between empty weight and
> gross weight and yet shows the stout owner and author merrily flying off in
> the air to air photos.

There was one about 18 months ago - can't remember if it was Private
Pilot or Plane & Pilot that showed a 150 conversion to a Texas
Taildragger. Useful load was zip but it showed two huge guys with big
smiles flying through mountains.
Ain't Photoshop wonderful? :)

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Jeff]

I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday, a Bonanza took off from North Las
Vegas airport, 4 adults and 2 children on board. It was'nt a V tail bonanza so
I am not sure of the model, but witness said the plane had trouble taking off
and climbing, somewhere after he started his turn right after take off, he nosed
in, all onboard dead.

this is what the news has been reporting about for the last 2 days, again, not
sure if it was overloaded since I dont know anything about bonanzas, but its not
worth the risk in my opinion.


Harry Gordon wrote:

> I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for some
> alternative suggestions.
>
> Tomorrow, I want to take my daughter and son-in-law on a flight in a C172M.
> We will be flying to an airport almost 50 NM from our departure point. The
> problem is this: with a full fuel load, we will be 89 pounds over the max
> (2300 lbs). The CG is no problem. The only issue is the weight. I don't want
> to leave one of them behind, and I certainly don't want to leave myself
> behind :-))).
>
> I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
> won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane. Should it be full
> and I don't have the needed 15 gals of fuel dumped, should I be concerned
> about being 90 lbs over?
>
> Please be nice in your answers. I feel like an idiot even asking because I
> am concerned and if it wasn't for the fact they are visiting us for
> Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at the
> same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the name of
> having fun.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Harry

[Shirley]

Jeff Jeff@turboarrow3 wrote:

>I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday,
>a Bonanza took off from North Las Vegas airport,
>4 adults and 2 children on board. [snip]
>... again, not sure if it was overloaded since I dont
>know anything about bonanzas, but its not worth
>the risk in my opinion.

I don't know if it was overloaded or what the cause was either, but I have a
friend who lives near there and said there were severe thunderstorms and winds
near the airport at the time of the crash.

[Jeff]

My plane is based out at the north vegas airport, yes we had alot of clouds during
the day, the rains and high winds didnt really start untill around evening here in
the SW part of town where I live. A witness said the wind on the ground was calm
at the time of the accident, but you know how it can be, 100 ft off the ground it
may have been stronger.

During the afternoon, I would have flown, but only on an IFR flight plan due to
the low clouds and rain that you could see out to the west.. According to the news
today, they didnt know his destination or much about them because a flight plan
hadnt been filed.

Shirley wrote:

> Jeff Jeff@turboarrow3 wrote:
>
> >I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday,
> >a Bonanza took off from North Las Vegas airport,
> >4 adults and 2 children on board. [snip]
> >... again, not sure if it was overloaded since I dont
> >know anything about bonanzas, but its not worth
> >the risk in my opinion.
>
> I don't know if it was overloaded or what the cause was either, but I have a
> friend who lives near there and said there were severe thunderstorms and winds
> near the airport at the time of the crash.

[Bill Denton]

Doesn't a Bonanza get really ugly when loaded outside of the CG limits?

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday, a Bonanza took off from
North Las
> Vegas airport, 4 adults and 2 children on board. It was'nt a V tail
bonanza so
> I am not sure of the model, but witness said the plane had trouble taking
off
> and climbing, somewhere after he started his turn right after take off, he
nosed
> in, all onboard dead.
>
> this is what the news has been reporting about for the last 2 days, again,
not
> sure if it was overloaded since I dont know anything about bonanzas, but
its not
> worth the risk in my opinion.
>
>
> Harry Gordon wrote:
>
> > I have a question that I know the legal answer for but am looking for
some
> > alternative suggestions.
> >
> > Tomorrow, I want to take my daughter and son-in-law on a flight in a
C172M.
> > We will be flying to an airport almost 50 NM from our departure point.
The
> > problem is this: with a full fuel load, we will be 89 pounds over the
max
> > (2300 lbs). The CG is no problem. The only issue is the weight. I don't
want
> > to leave one of them behind, and I certainly don't want to leave myself
> > behind :-))).
> >
> > I am hoping that the plane wasn't refilled after it's last flight but I
> > won't know until I go to the airport to get the plane. Should it be
full
> > and I don't have the needed 15 gals of fuel dumped, should I be
concerned
> > about being 90 lbs over?
> >
> > Please be nice in your answers. I feel like an idiot even asking because
I
> > am concerned and if it wasn't for the fact they are visiting us for
> > Christmas, I would take one at a time on two separate trips!!! And at
the
> > same time, I'm not in a hurry to get us hurt (or worse) just in the name
of
> > having fun.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Harry
>

[Mike Rapoport]

Really? I've never heard of a severe thunderstorm in Las Vegas in December.
Does your friend know what the definition of a severe thunderstorm is?

Mike
MU-2


"Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> Jeff Jeff@turboarrow3 wrote:
>
> >I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday,
> >a Bonanza took off from North Las Vegas airport,
> >4 adults and 2 children on board. [snip]
> >... again, not sure if it was overloaded since I dont
> >know anything about bonanzas, but its not worth
> >the risk in my opinion.
>
> I don't know if it was overloaded or what the cause was either, but I have
a
> friend who lives near there and said there were severe thunderstorms and
winds
> near the airport at the time of the crash.
>

[Jeff]

It was pretty nasty weather towards the evening and late into the night. I was
at the airport today talking to the airport manager, he said winds were clocked
at 60 mph at one point for about an hour, He said he thought a couple of C-152's
were going to fly away in that wind, that they were "kite'ing around". Even Air
Vegas stopped flying out to the canyon.
I didnt see the light show, but the next day the news said we had a good
lightining show that night. It was nasty stuff, came in from california.
The tropicana casino had their parking garage flood and the fire dept had to
evacuate people from cars inside the garage (again on the news).

But the guy crashed near the Fiesta Casino, just inside the fence.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Really? I've never heard of a severe thunderstorm in Las Vegas in December.
> Does your friend know what the definition of a severe thunderstorm is?
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Shirley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Jeff Jeff@turboarrow3 wrote:
> >
> > >I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday,
> > >a Bonanza took off from North Las Vegas airport,
> > >4 adults and 2 children on board. [snip]
> > >... again, not sure if it was overloaded since I dont
> > >know anything about bonanzas, but its not worth
> > >the risk in my opinion.
> >
> > I don't know if it was overloaded or what the cause was either, but I have
> a
> > friend who lives near there and said there were severe thunderstorms and
> winds
> > near the airport at the time of the crash.
> >

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> It was pretty nasty weather towards the evening and late into the night. I
was
> at the airport today talking to the airport manager, he said winds were
clocked
> at 60 mph at one point for about an hour, He said he thought a couple of
C-152's
> were going to fly away in that wind, that they were "kite'ing around".
Even Air
> Vegas stopped flying out to the canyon.
> I didnt see the light show, but the next day the news said we had a good
> lightining show that night. It was nasty stuff, came in from california.
> The tropicana casino had their parking garage flood and the fire dept had
to
> evacuate people from cars inside the garage (again on the news).
>
> But the guy crashed near the Fiesta Casino, just inside the fence.
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > Really? I've never heard of a severe thunderstorm in Las Vegas in
December.
> > Does your friend know what the definition of a severe thunderstorm is?
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2

I guess his friends definition of a severe thunderstorm is what Jeff
described.

[Mike Rapoport]

It will be interesting to see the NTSB report on the weather at the time of
the accident. A severe thunderstorm is defined as surface winds of 50kts or
greater, hail 3/4" or larger, or a tornado, so 60mph winds certainly qualify
if they were being produced by a thunderstorm. I am a little surprised that
if the pilot took off in 60mph winds with a huge thunderstorm nearby that
nobody noted that fact.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> It was pretty nasty weather towards the evening and late into the night. I
was
> at the airport today talking to the airport manager, he said winds were
clocked
> at 60 mph at one point for about an hour, He said he thought a couple of
C-152's
> were going to fly away in that wind, that they were "kite'ing around".
Even Air
> Vegas stopped flying out to the canyon.
> I didnt see the light show, but the next day the news said we had a good
> lightining show that night. It was nasty stuff, came in from california.
> The tropicana casino had their parking garage flood and the fire dept had
to
> evacuate people from cars inside the garage (again on the news).
>
> But the guy crashed near the Fiesta Casino, just inside the fence.
>
> Mike Rapoport wrote:
>
> > Really? I've never heard of a severe thunderstorm in Las Vegas in
December.
> > Does your friend know what the definition of a severe thunderstorm is?
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Shirley" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Jeff Jeff@turboarrow3 wrote:
> > >
> > > >I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday,
> > > >a Bonanza took off from North Las Vegas airport,
> > > >4 adults and 2 children on board. [snip]
> > > >... again, not sure if it was overloaded since I dont
> > > >know anything about bonanzas, but its not worth
> > > >the risk in my opinion.
> > >
> > > I don't know if it was overloaded or what the cause was either, but I
have
> > a
> > > friend who lives near there and said there were severe thunderstorms
and
> > winds
> > > near the airport at the time of the crash.
> > >
>

[David Brooks]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message >...
> > If they did or if there is still too much fuel (weight), I am
> > going to scrap the flight. I'm not going to worry about trying to get some
> > fuel drained. Given the background for this flight, I don't think it would
> > be worth the hassle.
>
> That's fine for this flight, but I am going to use your post to ask a
> question that I've had for some time. Let's say you do need to "dump fuel",
> to get the weight down. How do you do it? Does the FBO drain it for you?
> What do they drain it into? What would you do if you were at an unattended
> field? Can this drained fuel be saved and re-used at a later time, or do
> those bad FBO people keep it?

I've had this done two or three times. The FBO treated it as normal
procedure, and since I rent wet, there's no cost implication. The fuel
truck can suck a metered amount of fuel out of the tanks and back into
the truck, so it seems.

One time it was for my checkride in a 152 (no tabs) - we filled it up
and then took 6 gallons out, and I made sure the examiner knew it.

-- David Brooks

[Jeff]

On my side of town the winds were not a problem untill after 4pm, it was not a
bad day at all up till then, in the evening is when it got nasty. From what the
news said, the guy took off around noon, it was decent weather on the ground at
that time, the clouds were really moving accross the sky so I am assuming the
winds aloft were howling but on the ground it wasnt bad at all.

But I was at north vegas airport today at Rons Aircraft service making a work
order for my plane, Ron, the owner of the shop, said the guy who died was a
customer of his, he used to fly a c-172 and recently upgraded to a Bonanza A36
TC and that the guy had about 20 hours or so in it. He said he is betting the
plane was over loaded, 6 people (4 adults 2 children) luggage and full fuel.
I will be curious as to the outcome of the investigation also.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> It will be interesting to see the NTSB report on the weather at the time of
> the accident. A severe thunderstorm is defined as surface winds of 50kts or
> greater, hail 3/4" or larger, or a tornado, so 60mph winds certainly qualify
> if they were being produced by a thunderstorm. I am a little surprised that
> if the pilot took off in 60mph winds with a huge thunderstorm nearby that
> nobody noted that fact.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> > It was pretty nasty weather towards the evening and late into the night. I
> was
> > at the airport today talking to the airport manager, he said winds were
> clocked
> > at 60 mph at one point for about an hour, He said he thought a couple of
> C-152's
> > were going to fly away in that wind, that they were "kite'ing around".
> Even Air
> > Vegas stopped flying out to the canyon.
> > I didnt see the light show, but the next day the news said we had a good
> > lightining show that night. It was nasty stuff, came in from california.
> > The tropicana casino had their parking garage flood and the fire dept had
> to
> > evacuate people from cars inside the garage (again on the news).
> >
> > But the guy crashed near the Fiesta Casino, just inside the fence.
> >
> > Mike Rapoport wrote:
> >
> > > Really? I've never heard of a severe thunderstorm in Las Vegas in
> December.
> > > Does your friend know what the definition of a severe thunderstorm is?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > > "Shirley" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Jeff Jeff@turboarrow3 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I dont know what the cause was, but yesterday,
> > > > >a Bonanza took off from North Las Vegas airport,
> > > > >4 adults and 2 children on board. [snip]
> > > > >... again, not sure if it was overloaded since I dont
> > > > >know anything about bonanzas, but its not worth
> > > > >the risk in my opinion.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know if it was overloaded or what the cause was either, but I
> have
> > > a
> > > > friend who lives near there and said there were severe thunderstorms
> and
> > > winds
> > > > near the airport at the time of the crash.
> > > >
> >