In the plane market - some questions before purchase

[Bill]

Hello

I am looking at a small airplane for recreational "Sunday afternoon
local area" flying and also for the once-a-month weekend 500 NM trip
to my hometown. I need to carry me, my wife, two kids, plus baggage
for said occupants. I also would like to own and airplane and not
rent. Done that, dont want to anymore. Would rather spend a little
more in the long run for "my own airplane" versus having to call ACME
FBO and trying to get on the schedule.

Flying will be done in dry climate, always day and VFR, and no
mountainous terrain.

I am an ATP/CFII with about 4000 hrs TT and maybe 2000 in a variety of
Cessna and Piper airplanes. Current 1st class, currently flying full
time.

I am looking at buying:

Cessna 172
Cessna 182
Piper Cherokee
Piper Dakota

My budget is about $50-75K or below ideally or $100K absolute max,
with the latter putting my wife in a Hyundai, ourselves eating at the
local soup kitchen, and living in an RV park.

I can do a 172 and my wife drive a Tahoe or I can buy a Mooney and we
will use the city bus system. Aren't airplanes great?

What is the "typical" budget needed, annually, to operate the above
airplanes in the manner I want to? Insurance? Fuel? Etc?

Any suggestions on specific year model, etc? Maybe other airplanes?

At some point I would like to teach my wife to fly and our kids to
fly. Bellanca Super Viking is unfortunately out of the question at
this point.

Thanks

Bill

[Jay Honeck]

> I am looking at buying:
>
> Cessna 172
> Cessna 182
> Piper Cherokee
> Piper Dakota

With two adults and two kids, plus baggage, you want the Dakota.

I own a '74 Pathfinder -- the predecessor to the Dakota. We've got a 1460
pound useful load, 84 gallons of fuel, and 140 knot cruising speed. It's
the best all-around true 4-seat aircraft I've found, for the money.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

sounds like either the 182 fixed gear.. or a Dakota or older Piper 235C or D

the kids will grow.. and out grow a 172

BT

"Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Hello
>
> I am looking at a small airplane for recreational "Sunday afternoon
> local area" flying and also for the once-a-month weekend 500 NM trip
> to my hometown. I need to carry me, my wife, two kids, plus baggage
> for said occupants. I also would like to own and airplane and not
> rent. Done that, dont want to anymore. Would rather spend a little
> more in the long run for "my own airplane" versus having to call ACME
> FBO and trying to get on the schedule.
>
> Flying will be done in dry climate, always day and VFR, and no
> mountainous terrain.
>
> I am an ATP/CFII with about 4000 hrs TT and maybe 2000 in a variety of
> Cessna and Piper airplanes. Current 1st class, currently flying full
> time.
>
> I am looking at buying:
>
> Cessna 172
> Cessna 182
> Piper Cherokee
> Piper Dakota
>
> My budget is about $50-75K or below ideally or $100K absolute max,
> with the latter putting my wife in a Hyundai, ourselves eating at the
> local soup kitchen, and living in an RV park.
>
> I can do a 172 and my wife drive a Tahoe or I can buy a Mooney and we
> will use the city bus system. Aren't airplanes great?
>
> What is the "typical" budget needed, annually, to operate the above
> airplanes in the manner I want to? Insurance? Fuel? Etc?
>
> Any suggestions on specific year model, etc? Maybe other airplanes?
>
> At some point I would like to teach my wife to fly and our kids to
> fly. Bellanca Super Viking is unfortunately out of the question at
> this point.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill

[Teacherjh]

Before you buy, consider a partnership or flying club. Initial outlay much
smaller, good aircraft availability, and a variety of aircraft. I agree with
other posters that you'd want the Dakota or the 182 for four plus baggage,
though you could squeeze it into the smaller aircraft and carry less fuel.
You'd have better availability with a partnership, I'd look in that direction.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[tony roberts]

> I am looking at a small airplane for recreational "Sunday afternoon
> local area" flying and also for the once-a-month weekend 500 NM trip
> to my hometown. I need to carry me, my wife, two kids, plus baggage
> for said occupants.

Hi Bill
Before purchasing an aircraft you define your mission as you did.
Your typical mission would be well suited to a 172.
But you threw in the monthly trip. A typical 172 will give you around
1000 lb useful load, less 250 gall fuel so you are left with about 750
for passengers and baggage. Will that do it?
When you consider all of the extra costs involved in the 182, it would
be far more economical for you to buy more clothes, leave them in your
hometown and travel light. That luggage is going to cost you a LOT of
money every year.

HTH
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[tony roberts]

> A typical 172 will give you around
> 1000 lb useful load, less 250 gall fuel so you are left with about 750
> for passengers and baggage. Will that do it?

As you have probably already deduced, that should be 250 lb and not 250
gall :)

And some of the newer 172's actually have a lower useful load - more
like 850 - 900 lb.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Marco Leon]

Your requirements are best satisfied by a Dakota or a Cessna 182. However,
your budget is screaming Cessna 172, Piper Archer/Warrior. I'm not sure if
you've considered all the other costs associated with plane ownership but
whatever it is, add 20% :)

Look into a 2 or 3-way partnership in a Dakota or C182. I think you'll find
that it's an attractive option.

Good luck,

Marco

"Bill" > wrote in message
...
> Hello
>
> I am looking at a small airplane for recreational "Sunday afternoon
> local area" flying and also for the once-a-month weekend 500 NM trip
> to my hometown. I need to carry me, my wife, two kids, plus baggage
> for said occupants. I also would like to own and airplane and not
> rent. Done that, dont want to anymore. Would rather spend a little
> more in the long run for "my own airplane" versus having to call ACME
> FBO and trying to get on the schedule.
>
> Flying will be done in dry climate, always day and VFR, and no
> mountainous terrain.
>
> I am an ATP/CFII with about 4000 hrs TT and maybe 2000 in a variety of
> Cessna and Piper airplanes. Current 1st class, currently flying full
> time.
>
> I am looking at buying:
>
> Cessna 172
> Cessna 182
> Piper Cherokee
> Piper Dakota
>
> My budget is about $50-75K or below ideally or $100K absolute max,
> with the latter putting my wife in a Hyundai, ourselves eating at the
> local soup kitchen, and living in an RV park.
>
> I can do a 172 and my wife drive a Tahoe or I can buy a Mooney and we
> will use the city bus system. Aren't airplanes great?
>
> What is the "typical" budget needed, annually, to operate the above
> airplanes in the manner I want to? Insurance? Fuel? Etc?
>
> Any suggestions on specific year model, etc? Maybe other airplanes?
>
> At some point I would like to teach my wife to fly and our kids to
> fly. Bellanca Super Viking is unfortunately out of the question at
> this point.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill



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[EDR]

In article >, Bill
> wrote:

Cherokee Six.
100 pounds in the nose locker, 120 pounds in the aft baggage area.
With full fuel (84 gal/504 pounds), that leaves another 1200 pounds for
up to six people and other stuff in the cabin. Less than six pax
increases the leg room for everyone.
500 nm trip will be 3-4 hours (depending on winds). I usually file for
135 knots on 16 gph.

[Bill]

I appreciate the comments and info. I indeed am looking at a 2-man
partnership on a 182, as such arrangement is easily doable, no sweat,
with the budget I have in mind.

Any particular year model recommendations? I believe there is a
2-volume book published by Aviation Consumer (similar?) about Used
Airplanes. Of course none of my friends has this book. Is this
something I might want to buy or can most of the info be gleemed from
the internet?

Thanks

[Ron Natalie]

"Bill" > wrote in message . ..

>
> Any particular year model recommendations? I believe there is a
> 2-volume book published by Aviation Consumer (similar?) about Used
> Airplanes. Of course none of my friends has this book. Is this
> something I might want to buy or can most of the info be gleemed from
> the internet?

Frankly, I'm unimpressed by the book. You can actually order reprints on
specific airplanes from past Aviation Consumer articles from them. Even
those are a mixed bad, but not a bad starting point for info on a type.

[Newps]

Bill wrote:
> I appreciate the comments and info. I indeed am looking at a 2-man
> partnership on a 182, as such arrangement is easily doable, no sweat,
> with the budget I have in mind.
>
> Any particular year model recommendations?

I wouldn't go any newer than the mid 70's. After this the ceiling went
down as the empty weight went up.

[EDR]

In article >, Bill
> wrote:

> I appreciate the comments and info. I indeed am looking at a 2-man
> partnership on a 182, as such arrangement is easily doable, no sweat,
> with the budget I have in mind.

Be sure to read the Air Safety Foundations review of the 182.
Free download, PDF file.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Bill > wrote:
>
>I am looking at a small airplane for recreational "Sunday afternoon
>local area" flying and also for the once-a-month weekend 500 NM trip

If you're going to do the 500nm trip that often I think you've got
to optimize for that. The difference in flight time between a 155kt
plane and a 115kt plane is over an hour, and practically speaking it
crosses a threshold where the passengers (and fuel tanks) will need
a pitstop, probably adding another hour to the total time.

That means an old 172 (assuming it can carry your family and bag) gets
you there in about 5.5 hours with one stop. If your passengers can
stand a 4 hour flight (I'm including .3 in all these beyond flight time)
then a 182 can carry enough fuel to get you there in one leg, 1.5 hours
sooner. A Comanche or Mooney could shave another 30 minutes off the
flight time.

So now you have to ask yourself: Would you (and your family) make the
trip once a month if the trip involved 11 hours of flying? What if it
was only 7 or 8?

>Cessna 172

Probably not enough payload, unless your kids are small. Range is
weak for your 500nm trip (assuming you can fill the tanks). In your
pricerange. Lots to choose from.

>Cessna 182

Very popular, and hold a value disproportionate to the raw numbers
(speed, payload, fuel efficiency). Unless you have a 182 craving,
there are enough people who DO to price you out of the market.

>Piper Cherokee
>Piper Dakota

I have a Comanche, so of course I'd consider that. You can get an
older one in your budget. If your goal is to teach your wife (and
kids?) to fly you probably want to avoid the high performance
retractable.

>I can do a 172 and my wife drive a Tahoe or I can buy a Mooney and we
>will use the city bus system. Aren't airplanes great?

Well keep in mind that if you buy a 172 and a Tahoe and sell both in
5 years you'll have less money than you would if you bought a 182 and
a Hyundai. The plane will hold its value, the cars will not.

>What is the "typical" budget needed, annually, to operate the above
>airplanes in the manner I want to? Insurance? Fuel? Etc?

Roughly $8-10k once you factor in insurance, hangar/tiedown, maintenance,
fuel, oil, engine/avionics/paint reserve (or the equivalent loss in value
at resale).

The important thing is that while the costs of owning may average out
over several years (and after selling the plane), any one year might
cost a lot more if you had to replace an engine or comply with an A/D.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[[email protected]]

Bill > wrote:

> I am an ATP/CFII with about 4000 hrs TT and maybe 2000 in a variety of
> Cessna and Piper airplanes. Current 1st class, currently flying full
> time.

> I am looking at buying:

> Cessna 172
> Cessna 182
> Piper Cherokee
> Piper Dakota

> My budget is about $50-75K or below ideally or $100K absolute max,
> with the latter putting my wife in a Hyundai, ourselves eating at the
> local soup kitchen, and living in an RV park.

May I suggest that you contact the "type" clubs. They usually have
very specific information about each model/year. I am a member of,
and highly recommend "Cessna Pilots Association"... I think they
know more about Cessnas than Cessna knows about them!

I like the C182... with a 12V electrical system, the newest one you
can find in your price range. The 24V ones are harder to jump. :-)

Of course, I like the 1650 lbs useful load in my C206. :-)

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://www.frii.net/~jer
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 197 Young Eagles!