NY incident :-(

[Rosspilot]

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
www.Rosspilot.com

[Jonathan Goodish]

In article >,
(Rosspilot) wrote:
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm

I can accept making the mistake and busting the Class B... although not
excusable, it's done all the time. What I have trouble with is that the
guy apparently was aware of his mistake, told everyone where he was
going (to Republic), and then proceeded to not go there, instead
deciding to take a sight-seeing trip around the Statue.

That is, of course, if you believe the news report.



JKG

[Marco Leon]

I saw the end part of the incident. The plane is tied down 10 spots away
from mine at Republic Airport in NY. Here's what I saw:

Driving to Republic, I saw what I thought was a tow plane and a glider
turning final on RWY 19. It struck me as odd since there are no glider ops
at FRG. When they're on final, it becomes apparent that it was a Mooney with
a Nassau County PD helicopter in close trail (like 50-100ft!). I watched as
long as I could without crashing my car and I was able to see another
helicopter hovering over the main ramp while the PD helo taxied with the
Mooney.

I had access to the Echo ramp (for those that are familiar with FRG) but
since the Orange Alert took place, car access was only through a maintenance
gate that neccessitated a trek across the main ramp and hence a good view of
what was going on. Basically, the guy's car was being searched and there was
a lot of people standing around. The other helo turned out to be an unmarked
souped-up Huey with about 5 different sensors protruding from various
locations. Could have been the Feds (anyone know? It wa a mettalic tan
color).

The whole thing was blown out of proportion as usual but maybe not as much
as I thought. According to a British newspaper, it had arrested two Saudi
nationals who were planning on crashing a small plane into an airliner
(http://www.todayonline.com/articles/12378.asp) The story could have been
total BS but we all know that's all that's needed to raise tensions. If that
Brit story played into this incident, then that's some pretty bad timing for
the Mooney pilot.

We'll never know.

Marco



"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>



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[Judah]

There was a report about it last night on the evening news. What I found
most interesting about the newscaster's coverage was her "Shock and Awe" at
the fact that he flew around the Statue of Liberty!

After all, it's probably the only part of his trip that was legal (assuming
he was down at 500').



(Rosspilot) wrote in
:

> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message ...
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
Other than the "demonstrating holes in NY anti-terror precautions" it actually
isn't too bad of an article.

[Ron Natalie]

"Judah" > wrote in message ...
> There was a report about it last night on the evening news. What I found
> most interesting about the newscaster's coverage was her "Shock and Awe" at
> the fact that he flew around the Statue of Liberty!
>
> After all, it's probably the only part of his trip that was legal (assuming
> he was down at 500').
>
Yep, and not going to endanger anyone since the anti-terror tofuheads have
had the thing closed to tourists.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
> www.Rosspilot.com
SIGH!!!
I don't know what binLaden's long term objective is, but he must be sitting
in his cave laughing his ass off at how much he got the US to chase it's
tail.

Off the top of their head I bet most terrorists could think of 10 ways to
commit their foul acts and each one would be a clean "end-run". It's said
the old Baader-Meinhof gang and Red Brigades succeeded beyond their wildest
expectations in moving the somewhat freer nations strongly towards the
fascism they (B-M, RB's) wished to impose.

[Mike Rapoport]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
...
> The whole thing was blown out of proportion as usual but maybe not as much
> as I thought. According to a British newspaper, it had arrested two Saudi
> nationals who were planning on crashing a small plane into an airliner
> (http://www.todayonline.com/articles/12378.asp) The story could have been
> total BS but we all know that's all that's needed to raise tensions. If
that
> Brit story played into this incident, then that's some pretty bad timing
for
> the Mooney pilot.
>
> We'll never know.
>
> Marco
>

Trying to hit an jet with a small piston single is like trying to hit a
bullet with an arrow. It would be interesting to see them try.

Mike
MU-2

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> Trying to hit an jet with a small piston single is like trying to hit a
> bullet with an arrow. It would be interesting to see them try.

I think the point of the news stories right now is that they were going to
do this while both they and the 777 were taxiing, and not while in flight.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
> ...
> > The whole thing was blown out of proportion as usual but maybe not as
much
> > as I thought. According to a British newspaper, it had arrested two
Saudi
> > nationals who were planning on crashing a small plane into an airliner
> > (http://www.todayonline.com/articles/12378.asp) The story could have
been
> > total BS but we all know that's all that's needed to raise tensions. If
> that
> > Brit story played into this incident, then that's some pretty bad timing
> for
> > the Mooney pilot.
> >
> > We'll never know.
> >
> > Marco
> >
>
> Trying to hit an jet with a small piston single is like trying to hit a
> bullet with an arrow. It would be interesting to see them try.
>
I think they were going to do it while the plane was taxiing, or during the
takeoff run.

[Ron Natalie]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message nk.net...
> > Trying to hit an jet with a small piston single is like trying to hit a
> > bullet with an arrow. It would be interesting to see them try.
>
> I think the point of the news stories right now is that they were going to
> do this while both they and the 777 were taxiing, and not while in flight.
>
In that case, I'd have loaded up a bunch of baggage trolleys and chased after
the 777 with a tug.

[Andrew Gideon]

Rosspilot wrote:

> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm


Oddly, I'd no problems in the same neighborhood just a few hours later:

http://www.gideon.org/andrew/PhotoAlbum/Flying/Hudson/3/

This was down the Hudson at 1500, left turn over Midtown, right turn down
the East River, around Battery Park and then back up the Hudson. I didn't
even know about this incursion into the class B until I read the USENET
post to which I'm replying.

But the statements like "a dangerous gap in the city's terror-fighting
capability" and "the issue of flying near major landmarks should be
revisited" have me quite concerned that I won't be able to make this trip
much longer.

Can someone explain why this fellow, after telling ATC he was heading for
Republic, decided to circle the Statue? Did he at least tell them of his
intentions?

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Can someone explain why this fellow, after telling ATC he was heading for
> Republic, decided to circle the Statue? Did he at least tell them of his
> intentions?

Hmm. The NYTimes article was *very* different from that of the Post.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/29/nyregion/29PLAN.html

For example:

At 1:45 p.m. yesterday, the small plane was flying below 1,000
feet when it crossed south over the Bronx-Whitestone Bridge and
passed through La Guardia's airspace, Mr. Peters said. Air
traffic controllers at La Guardia tried to contact the pilot,
but were unsuccessful, Mr. Peters said.

But the Post article said:

Langone said that once he was over the East River, he received
a radio call telling him he'd entered La Guardia airspace.

He answered that he was heading back to Republic, but after passing
the Brooklyn Bridge and heading for the harbor, he decided to first
take a sightseeing loop around the Statue of Liberty.

Who reached him, if Laguardia didn't?

- Andrew

[John Gaquin]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message news:3ff03473

> ....The plane is tied down 10 spots away
> from mine at Republic Airport in NY.

Drop over some time and strike up a conversation. I'd love to know if this
guy is as much of a nimrod as this flight would seem to indicate.

JG

[Marco Leon]

Are you at Echo? I don't know the guy personally so I can't really comment.
He apparently was very apologetic according tot the various news reports and
didn't deny his mistake. Facts are facts though. The guy is in serious need
of pilotage training and needs to make use of the Terminal chart! In the
meantime, he should invest in a nice handheld GPS if they don't take his
ticket away.

I just hope this incident won't have permanent effects on our privileges in
NY or on GA in general. The Hudson River airspace exists on fragile grounds
as it is.

Marco

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message news:3ff03473
>
> > ....The plane is tied down 10 spots away
> > from mine at Republic Airport in NY.
>
> Drop over some time and strike up a conversation. I'd love to know if
this
> guy is as much of a nimrod as this flight would seem to indicate.
>
> JG
>
>



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[Marco Leon]

Who knows what really happened but one scenario could be that he was already
well on his way down the East River before they were able to contact him on
one of the common frequencies (123.075 or 123.05 for East and Hudson
respectively). When they did contact him, they may have only informed him of
the airspace incursion and not told him he was in deep doo doo. A reply of,
"Roger, I'm enroute back to FRG" would seem reasonable. Since he was already
heading south and not thinking he was in trouble, he may have just done what
he intended to do and circle the Lady. According to the various articles, he
was not intercepted until the Verrazano Bridge so he may have thought the
call was just a slap on the wrist until then.

Keep in mind, this is TOTAL speculation on my part.

I agree with you on the newsmedia sensationalism affecting GA. That's part
of the reason why people join AOPA isn't it?

Marco


"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
> Rosspilot wrote:
>
> > http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
>
>
> Oddly, I'd no problems in the same neighborhood just a few hours later:
>
> http://www.gideon.org/andrew/PhotoAlbum/Flying/Hudson/3/
>
> This was down the Hudson at 1500, left turn over Midtown, right turn down
> the East River, around Battery Park and then back up the Hudson. I didn't
> even know about this incursion into the class B until I read the USENET
> post to which I'm replying.
>
> But the statements like "a dangerous gap in the city's terror-fighting
> capability" and "the issue of flying near major landmarks should be
> revisited" have me quite concerned that I won't be able to make this trip
> much longer.
>
> Can someone explain why this fellow, after telling ATC he was heading for
> Republic, decided to circle the Statue? Did he at least tell them of his
> intentions?
>
> - Andrew
>



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[John T]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m
>
> In that case, I'd have loaded up a bunch of baggage trolleys and
> chased after the 777 with a tug.

That would work quite well, but one of the goals of a "terrorist" is the
psychological effect of the attack. Using the tug and luggage train
wouldn't be nearly as spectacular/sensational as using another airplane.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Peter Gottlieb]

I passed through the Hudson corridor with my wife maybe 15 minutes before
that guy...


"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>

[Peter Gottlieb]

Was that his path? Did he come down the Hudson then turn left at the Harlem
river and decide to go down the east side of Manhattan?


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> >
> > I can accept making the mistake and busting the Class B...
>
> I'm not sure that I can. The Hudson is a straight and wide waterway at
that point,
> and there's this rather large, easily identifiable city just to the left
of it.
> Taking a sharp 90 degree turn up that creek they call the Harlem River
goes way
> beyond "getting lost".
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Judah]

I dunno... Coming up from the NJ side, like over BLM area, I could see
momentarily confusing the Brooklyn Bridge for the Verrazzano (sp?) if you
haven't done it before...

But I would think that you would have it figured out by the time you hit
Governer's Island area, especially if you're from LI!

Oh well. People screw up. And I suspect without Orange colored Panic
Buttons, and a leak to FOX News or NY Post or whomever it was that
"broke" the story, it wouldn't have even been that big of an issue...

Maybe the world will realize how ludicrous it is to think that they could
respond quickly enough to a terrorist attack from a GA Airplane in a TFR
and drop the whole idea anyway...

Ouch! Oh darn, I just woke up...


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

>
>
> Jonathan Goodish wrote:
>>
>> I can accept making the mistake and busting the Class B...
>
> I'm not sure that I can. The Hudson is a straight and wide waterway at
> that point, and there's this rather large, easily identifiable city
> just to the left of it. Taking a sharp 90 degree turn up that creek
> they call the Harlem River goes way beyond "getting lost".
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
> said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[John Roncallo]

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The whole thing was blown out of proportion as usual but maybe not as much
>>as I thought. According to a British newspaper, it had arrested two Saudi
>>nationals who were planning on crashing a small plane into an airliner
>>(http://www.todayonline.com/articles/12378.asp) The story could have been
>>total BS but we all know that's all that's needed to raise tensions. If
>
> that
>
>>Brit story played into this incident, then that's some pretty bad timing
>
> for
>
>>the Mooney pilot.
>>
>>We'll never know.
>>
>>Marco
>>
>
>
> Trying to hit an jet with a small piston single is like trying to hit a
> bullet with an arrow. It would be interesting to see them try.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
>

I agree. It would be allot easyier to do with a van that has allot more
space and capacity for bombs. Thats why they should close down all the
streets in Chicago and re-open Miegs.

John Roncallo

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
>
> I can accept making the mistake and busting the Class B...

I'm not sure that I can. The Hudson is a straight and wide waterway at that point,
and there's this rather large, easily identifiable city just to the left of it.
Taking a sharp 90 degree turn up that creek they call the Harlem River goes way
beyond "getting lost".

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> as this flight would seem to indicate.
>

and his blathering to the media, too.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Judah,

> Oh well. People screw up
>

I dunno. There are screw-ups, and then there are SCREW-UPs.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Andrew Gideon]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> Was that his path? Did he come down the Hudson then turn left at the
> Harlem river and decide to go down the east side of Manhattan?

He'd left Sky Acres en route to Republic (where he was based) according to
news reports. A logical pilotage route is down the Hudson.

I'm surprised that nobody here has caught one interesting point, so perhaps
it's not as interesting as I'd imagined. He'd been flying for a year and a
half, according to the report, and he was flying a Mooney. I've never
flown a Mooney, but the impression I've had is that these are fairly
"smooth" aircraft. After only 18 months (and assuming mostly "weekend"
flying), is flying such reasonable?

Still, there have been some awful comments in the news. The Post reported
NYC's Deputy something as saying that small aircraft shouldn't be permitted
around his city. The AM news station 1010 reported that the pilot "scared
people by flying around the statue", and didn't mention that scores do it
every day.

Sheesh.

As much as aiming ire at the pilot may feel good, I've a feeling we might
need to do something to avoid having NYC turn as friendly to aviation as
Chicago. There's no airport to close, but this is still worrisome.

- Andrew

[Rosspilot]

Frankly, having lived, worked, and flown here for so long, I can't figure out
what he did . . . or why. This was at 1:30 in the afternoon (according to the
reports I saw), bright blue VFR sky. Maybe if it was at night I could see
"confusion".

George, why do you say this?

<<He'd left Sky Acres en route to Republic (where he was based) according to
news reports. A logical pilotage route is down the Hudson.>>

I wouldn't go that way unless I was *planning* a scenic run of Manhattan. If
so, he would have to be (at minimum) familiar enough with the basic geography
to know Hudson and East Rivers w/ Manhattan between them.
Something clearly doesn't add up to me. If he was on the Hudson southbound,
why turn toward LGA and get off the highway?

The news reports have taken a more ominous tone like "buzzing the Statue of
Liberty", etc . . . and I know why. It is very important to keep us afraid, so
we can continue to "terrorize" ourselves. Fox News has "Terror Alert: HIGH"
permanently on the screen 24/7 now. The whole thing is so ridiculous. I pray
we pilots aren't the only ones who recognize what our nation is rapidly
becoming . . . cowering, ignorant, poorly educated, self-absorbed, gullible,
simple-minded, platitude-spouting, sheeple.

I love the term "no-fly zones". Like suicidal Muhammad is gonna re-think his
plan because Mayor (fill-in the blank) got a "no fly zone" around his city.
Sure . . .

Geeze . . . :-(







www.Rosspilot.com

[Ron Natalie]

"Judah" > wrote in message ...
> I dunno... Coming up from the NJ side, like over BLM area, I could see
> momentarily confusing the Brooklyn Bridge for the Verrazzano (sp?) if you
> haven't done it before...
>
If you can't tell the difference between Manhattan and Staten Island, I guess so.

[Rosspilot]

>>
>> George, why do you say this?
>>
>> <<He'd left Sky Acres en route to Republic (where he was based) according
>to
>> news reports. A logical pilotage route is down the Hudson.>>
>
>I didn't.
>

Oops . . .sorry . . . question meant for Andrew, then . . .


www.Rosspilot.com

[Andrew Gideon]

Rosspilot wrote:

>>>
>>> George, why do you say this?
>>>
>>> <<He'd left Sky Acres en route to Republic (where he was based)
>>> according
>>to
>>> news reports. A logical pilotage route is down the Hudson.>>
>>
>>I didn't.
>>
>
> Oops . . .sorry . . . question meant for Andrew, then . . .

Right. I'd assumed that he'd decided to run the exclusion zone ahead of
time.

- Andrew

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Gottlieb wrote:
>
> Was that his path? Did he come down the Hudson then turn left at the Harlem
> river and decide to go down the east side of Manhattan?

Well. I *did* make an assumption there that he decided to shoot the corridor
before or shortly after he took off. That would be within sight of the Hudson
for the entire flight.

Rereading the article, it really isn't that clear. The article said he was coming
from the Poughkeepsie area, went through La Guardia airspace, and down the East
river. I suppose it's possible that he headed direct for Republic and decided to
detour down the East River after he got down close to LI Sound. That would bring
him through the class B near Spyten Dyvil. At that point, the class B goes to the
ground. That mistake would be much more understandable.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rosspilot wrote:
>
> George, why do you say this?
>
> <<He'd left Sky Acres en route to Republic (where he was based) according to
> news reports. A logical pilotage route is down the Hudson.>>

I didn't.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[lardsoup]

Just heard on the news that the pilot served time in prison for murder about
ten or so years ago.

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message news:3ff03473
>
> > ....The plane is tied down 10 spots away
> > from mine at Republic Airport in NY.
>
> Drop over some time and strike up a conversation. I'd love to know if
this
> guy is as much of a nimrod as this flight would seem to indicate.
>
> JG
>
>

[John Gaquin]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
>
>....I'd love to know if this
> guy is as much of a nimrod as this flight would seem to indicate.

WELL!!! "Fat Richie Meatloaf", indeed! Shoot a guy in the head over a
small time dope deal.

That's exactly how much of a nimrod this guy is.

[David H]

Rosspilot wrote:

> http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/14692.htm
> www.Rosspilot.com

Of course, the plane should have been shot down immediately. If a few
innocent lives are lost that's a small price to pay for our safety.
For goodness sake, it's Condition Orange. You just can't be too
careful.

After all, they say September 11th changed everything.

David H
Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
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