MS FS 2004 for Christmas...but the Kings are like some cruel lump of coal in the stocking :-)

[Jack Allison]

Got a copy of MS flight simulator 2004 for Christmas. Thought it was very
cool, especially when I discovered Rod Machado is part of the
package...but...why, why Bill Gates do you torment people with the likes of
John and Martha King? Why? What did anyone do to deserve such punishment?
In an obvious (and commendable) effort to provide a ton of great flying
lesson type stuff and promote GA, why force the Kings upon innocent people
(and pilots who like the SW). Ahhhhhh!

Ok, I feel better. Sorry for the rant...well, not really :-) Obviously, I
can't stand the two of them. If you can strip away the corny not funny lame
forced "humor", what they have to say is great. Ah, but at least I can skip
any Video segments where the two of them are involved.

Ok, some serious questions for folks who use the software:

What brand/model joystick have you used and how do you rate it? I have a
cheap one that somebody gave me and I want to upgrade to a nicer one, just
looking for any suggestions as to what has/hasn't worked for folks.

Any instrument students/pilots gone through the instrument lessons? I'm
planning to...as soon as I tire of flying the 747 out of my 6000 ft. local
airport, flying under bridges, etc. :-)

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[John T]

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message

>
> Got a copy of MS flight simulator 2004 for Christmas.

I got it a few months ago and like it, too. While I don't have the aversion
to the Kings that you do, I haven't bothered with any of their instructional
pieces in FS2004.

> What brand/model joystick have you used and how do you rate it?

I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and like it. While I'd
prefer to have a force feedback yoke, I haven't found one that I'd consider
in the price range of a home system.

> Any instrument students/pilots gone through the instrument lessons?

I haven't taken any of the instructional segments in FS2004. However, I
have found it useful in keeping scanning techniques sharper than they'd
otherwise be during long winter groundings.

The new weather system in FS2004 makes IFR flying much more realistic.
However, I still think their planes (particularly the Skylane and the
Skyhawks I've found for it) do not respond quite the way they do in real
life. That may be a limitation of the software or the fact that I'm using a
right-handed joystick at home and a "left-handed" yoke in the plane. :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Jay Honeck]

> I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and like it. While I'd
> prefer to have a force feedback yoke, I haven't found one that I'd
consider
> in the price range of a home system.

I'll "second" this choice. It's a great joystick, with pretty realistic
feedback.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Chris Hoffmann]

Anyone have a suggestion for pedals?

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Y93Ib.691356$Tr4.1722695@attbi_s03...
> > I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and like it. While I'd
> > prefer to have a force feedback yoke, I haven't found one that I'd
> consider
> > in the price range of a home system.
>
> I'll "second" this choice. It's a great joystick, with pretty realistic
> feedback.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[CryptWolf]

"Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone have a suggestion for pedals?

I built my own. One of these days I may actually
finish all the drawings for the various parts and
instructions on how to build them.

My pedals are similar to some of the commercial
offerings but you'll never break mine. All solid wood
and steel construction from easy to get hardware.

I'm thinking about doing force feedback pedals
but I doubt anyone would support them.

I've been looking at making a muti-lever throttle
system but I've been unable to find adequate
electronics and software drivers to make them
work right. I know of several USB gameport adapter
schemes, but none actually work right.

[Pat Thronson]

CH-products are ok. I have both pedals and flight sim yoke.

The pedals also work as toe brakes. I have to duct tape it to the floor as
they do not stay by itself.

http://www.chproducts.com/retail/usb_home.html

Pat Thronson



"Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message
...
> Anyone have a suggestion for pedals?

[noah]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<Y93Ib.691356$Tr4.1722695@attbi_s03>...
> > I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and like it. While I'd
> > prefer to have a force feedback yoke, I haven't found one that I'd
> consider
> > in the price range of a home system.
>
> I'll "second" this choice. It's a great joystick, with pretty realistic
> feedback.

I have a question & comment. Recently I purchased a Logitech WingMan
joystick for this exact same use - FS2004, IFR procedures, etc... I've
found the that 'haptic' or feel definitely adds something to the game,
but there are serious problems so I'm going to get something
different.

My question - do you have the same problems with the MS force feedback
stick?

Here are the problems I have:
1. The feedback feels somewhat like a ratchet... you can feel discrete
jumps almost like the throttle lever on old RC plane sticks.

2. The delay / latency causes the stick to jump all over when you take
your hand off. Basically - the FSim force effects (from airflow)
activate well after you move the stick in one direction. This causes
the stick to get a 'force' moving it to the opposite side. By the time
it gets there, the new control airflow-forces act on the stick causing
it to jump to the other side...

3. Basically - the latency is soo bad, that if you move the
aileron/elevator at Vno in a cessna (or any other speed), there is a
large (approx 1sec) delay on force feedback that ruins the illusion of
a real control. The force should be 'centering' in proportion to
speed.

Back to the original poster, I *strongly* recommend getting some kind
of joystick that includes throttle, rudder if you don't have pedals,
and several buttons and a hat switch (for panning/changing view). This
has made Fsim much more fun / easy to grasp.

-Noah

[Jack Allison]

Interesting project. Yes, please post when you get a chance. Thanks!

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
CryptWolf > wrote:
>I've been looking at making a muti-lever throttle
>system but I've been unable to find adequate
>electronics and software drivers to make them
>work right. I know of several USB gameport adapter
>schemes, but none actually work right.

The easy thing to do would be to buy as many $10 USB joysticks as it
takes to get enough channels and cannibalize them (you don't even need
to use their pots as long as you use pots with the same characteristics).
Use an unpowered USB hub if you want to clean up the cabling. Then you've
got more work to configure it, but you only have to do that once.

Heck, come to think of it, there MUST be some A/D-converter-to-HID-on-USB
chips out there. http://www.lvr.com/hidpage.htm looks like a good lead.
No endorsements of Microchip's USB PIC offering, but there is actual
firmware even for a HID device based on the Cypress CY63000. Check out
cypress.com's developer kits under "USB low-speed peripherals".

http://www.cypress.com/cfuploads/support/reference_design/Joystick%20Design%20Notes.pdf

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Cecil E. Chapman]

Jack Allison" wrote in message
> Got a copy of MS flight simulator 2004 for Christmas. Thought it was very
> cool, especially when I discovered Rod Machado is part of the
> package...but...why, why Bill Gates do you torment people with the likes
of
> John and Martha King? Why? What did anyone do to deserve such
punishment?
> In an obvious (and commendable) effort to provide a ton of great flying
> lesson type stuff and promote GA, why force the Kings upon innocent people
> (and pilots who like the SW). Ahhhhhh!

Can't help ya on this one. I like the Kings, a lot. When I met 'em in
person they were basic mid-western folk (though they've lived a good while
in San Diego, CA) and very gracious.
>
> Ok, I feel better. Sorry for the rant...well, not really :-) Obviously,
I
> can't stand the two of them. If you can strip away the corny not funny
lame
> forced "humor", what they have to say is great. Ah, but at least I can
skip
> any Video segments where the two of them are involved.

Yeah, but the corniness for me, is endearing. I live IN San Francisco (IN
the city proper, NOT in a suburb - since I was a year old) and have had my
fill of the slick 'sophisticated' corporate clones that infect most major
cities. Give me the Kings and their 'back-to-basics' homespun corniness,
any day,,,, for a 'big city' boy like me, they're like a breath of fresh
air.

>
> Ok, some serious questions for folks who use the software
:> What brand/model joystick have you used and how do you rate it? I have a
> cheap one that somebody gave me and I want to upgrade to a nicer one, just
> looking for any suggestions as to what has/hasn't worked for folks.

I use the CH Products Flight SIM yoke - I've used it with FS 2004 and it
works just great, but primarily use it with ON TOP Instrument Sim.
Eventually, I'd like to buy one of those instrument panels that you can
interface with a computer (with nav/com stack and more). Of course by then,
I hope to also have bought that Cirrus yoke,,, but right now my $120 flight
yoke works just fine.
>
> Any instrument students/pilots gone through the instrument lessons?

I dabbled in the sessions led by Rod Machado, I thought it was done pretty
well, all considered.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Dennis O'Connor]

Back in the days of VHS video, the King course is the one that gave me the
answers for the instrument written... Don't knock the Kings... I was
looking for answers, not entertainment, and that's what I got... I spent
about two weeks watching the videos in the evenings... Took the written and
got a 100 on it... Don't knock the Kings...

Denny
"Cecil E. Chapman" > do you torment people with
the likes
> of
> > John and Martha King? Why? What did anyone do to deserve such
> punishment?

[Cecil E. Chapman]

You replied to the wrong guy.... I LIKE the Kings... you meant to reply to
Jack who I was trying to convince the Kings are great :-)

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Back in the days of VHS video, the King course is the one that gave me the
> answers for the instrument written... Don't knock the Kings... I was
> looking for answers, not entertainment, and that's what I got... I spent
> about two weeks watching the videos in the evenings... Took the written
and
> got a 100 on it... Don't knock the Kings...
>
> Denny
>

[Maule Driver]

The Kings have given me some of my soundest sleep.... but they are great
educators. They are not pretty but they are effective teachers and course
developers.

My 2 challenges for 2004 is:
1) Is Rod M. a good teacher? Can I take his corny story telling?
2) Can I figure out how to use MS2004 as an effective procedure trainer
before I become completely frustrated the need to use a keyboard/mouse to
operate the panel and all the other stuff?

We'll see.

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> Got a copy of MS flight simulator 2004 for Christmas. Thought it was very
> cool, especially when I discovered Rod Machado is part of the
> package...but...why, why Bill Gates do you torment people with the likes
of
> John and Martha King? Why? What did anyone do to deserve such
punishment?

[Ryan]

I've got these too and use them with MSFS2004 and X-Plane. The yoke and
pedals work great.

Ryan

"Pat Thronson" > wrote in message
. ..
> CH-products are ok. I have both pedals and flight sim yoke.
>
> The pedals also work as toe brakes. I have to duct tape it to the floor as
> they do not stay by itself.
>
> http://www.chproducts.com/retail/usb_home.html
>
> Pat Thronson
>
>
>
> "Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Anyone have a suggestion for pedals?
>
>
>
>

[Bill Ruckman]

I received the MS Force Feedback 2 stick for Christmas and experienced
the same things you reported. I went looking for a solution on the
web and found one in FS Force from
http://www.dirks-software.ca/fs-force/
This add-on makes the forces much more realistic. You can try it out
to see if it works for you before you buy it.

--Bill

(noah) wrote in message >...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<Y93Ib.691356$Tr4.1722695@attbi_s03>...
> > > I use the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and like it. While I'd
> > > prefer to have a force feedback yoke, I haven't found one that I'd
> consider
> > > in the price range of a home system.
> >
> > I'll "second" this choice. It's a great joystick, with pretty realistic
> > feedback.
>
> I have a question & comment. Recently I purchased a Logitech WingMan
> joystick for this exact same use - FS2004, IFR procedures, etc... I've
> found the that 'haptic' or feel definitely adds something to the game,
> but there are serious problems so I'm going to get something
> different.
>
> My question - do you have the same problems with the MS force feedback
> stick?
>
> Here are the problems I have:
> 1. The feedback feels somewhat like a ratchet... you can feel discrete
> jumps almost like the throttle lever on old RC plane sticks.
>
> 2. The delay / latency causes the stick to jump all over when you take
> your hand off. Basically - the FSim force effects (from airflow)
> activate well after you move the stick in one direction. This causes
> the stick to get a 'force' moving it to the opposite side. By the time
> it gets there, the new control airflow-forces act on the stick causing
> it to jump to the other side...
>
> 3. Basically - the latency is soo bad, that if you move the
> aileron/elevator at Vno in a cessna (or any other speed), there is a
> large (approx 1sec) delay on force feedback that ruins the illusion of
> a real control. The force should be 'centering' in proportion to
> speed.
>
> Back to the original poster, I *strongly* recommend getting some kind
> of joystick that includes throttle, rudder if you don't have pedals,
> and several buttons and a hat switch (for panning/changing view). This
> has made Fsim much more fun / easy to grasp.
>
> -Noah

[Jack Allison]

Yep, I'm the one that can't stand John and Martha. It's me you want to rag
on Denny, not Cecil. Heck, how could anyone rag on Cecil :-)

Re: the Kings, I have watched some of their private pilot video stuff and
the content was great. I just can't stand to listen to them for more than
five minutes. Call it a personality clash, they just rub me the wrong way.
If that's knocking them, oh well...

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Chris Ehlbeck]

Jack,

I agree! The Kings are on the Cessna Kits, after all, they made them. But
I can only take them for so long myself. On an earlier version of Flight
Simulator though, John grabbed the Microsoft Force Feedback Joystick in the
video and said something about "feeling the excitement" GROAN! But that
was also the version where Ron Machado was the voice of the CFI.

Chris
--
I'm learning to fly! See what's going on.
www.home.bellsouth.net/p/pwp-cehlbeck

"Jack Allison" > wrote in message
...
> Yep, I'm the one that can't stand John and Martha. It's me you want to
rag
> on Denny, not Cecil. Heck, how could anyone rag on Cecil :-)
>
> Re: the Kings, I have watched some of their private pilot video stuff and
> the content was great. I just can't stand to listen to them for more than
> five minutes. Call it a personality clash, they just rub me the wrong
way.
> If that's knocking them, oh well...
>
> --
> Jack Allison
> PP-ASEL
>
> "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
> with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
> you will always long to return"
> - Leonardo Da Vinci
>
> (Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)
>
>

[Sylvain]

(noah)
> My question - do you have the same problems with the MS force feedback
> stick?

I bought the Logitech Wingman Force Feedback to replace my MS (none force
feedback -- but the one where you can also twist the stick to control
the rudders -- the new PC didn't have a game port, and a converter
cost more than what I paid for the new joystick); well, although I find
the thing fun in other games, I disable the force feedback feature in MS
Flight Sim (I don't have the 2004 version though, still using the 2002
version but I reckon it makes no difference); I find the feature more
annoying than anything else (in real life you do have to take your
hand off the controls one in a while to deal with charts and stuff, but
you can't with the FF thingy switched on as the stick goes wild);

but then again, I might be missing something (better set up of the
control in the flight sim? any suggestion?)

--Sylvain

[Gary Drescher]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
om...
> (noah)
> I disable the force feedback feature in MS
> Flight Sim (I don't have the 2004 version though, still using the 2002
> version but I reckon it makes no difference); I find the feature more
> annoying than anything else (in real life you do have to take your
> hand off the controls one in a while to deal with charts and stuff, but
> you can't with the FF thingy switched on as the stick goes wild);
>
> but then again, I might be missing something (better set up of the
> control in the flight sim? any suggestion?)

I'm using the MS Sidewinder FF2 joystick with FS2004, default FF settings,
and there's no problem with letting go of the controls. I'm not sure why
yours differs, but that's not how it should be.

--Gary

[Jack Allison]

Ah, a fellow comrade who can't stand the Kings. For a while there I was
thinking I was the only one...

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)