comments?

[Rosspilot]

http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=URBANG.HTM

excerpt:

<<While passenger aircraft are now pretty secure, the same is not the case for
commercial freighters and private aircraft. It is quite possible that a smaller
aircraft, or long range transports from foreign nations, could be used for
suicide attacks. This scenario has terrorists renting a small two engine
aircraft (like the Piper Aztec or Cessna Businessliner) and flying off to any
target within several hundred miles. These aircraft rent for about $250 an hour
(with a 3-4 hour minimum). They have a cargo capacity of about half a ton, and
that could be filled with explosives. This would give the terrorists the
equivalent of an American cruise missile (which has a one ton warhead.) These
aircraft have a maximum take off weight of about three tons and only carry
about 500 pounds of fuel. Probably would not bring down a large skyscraper, but
would do a lot of damage to the White House or most other government buildings
in Washington. You can buy these aircraft second hand for $200-300,000. >>

I hate stuff like this, but I think it's better to toss it out there and shine
light on it than stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't there.





www.Rosspilot.com

[C J Campbell]

You can also drive down a street shooting people at random and there is not
much anybody can do to stop you.

Sure, it is possible to use small aircraft for a terrorist attack. The
question is, what do you do about it? There is really not much of anything
anyone can do to prevent it.

Maybe the asteroid is coming, but I am not going to spend a lot of time
worrying about it.

[Michael 182]

The truth is using a small aircraft for a terrorist act would be pretty
easy, cheap and effective. The other side of that is, of course, so what? As
we all know, it is easy to rent a truck, strap explosives around one's body,
bring guns into a school, etc. The issue is not the delivery mechanism.

As has been said often, and again recently in this forum, we are becoming a
cowering nation. I have no problem acting upon real and significant threats,
but I hate the insidious use of the "war on terror" to shape public policy
that infringes on rights and diseminates meaningless alerts, leading to
"news " articles about simple acts like busting airspace and fashion changes
to airport friendly shoes...

Sometimes I feel like I must have been born at the luckiest time in US
history. I spent my 20's and 30's after WWII, polio, smallpox, the
depression... before AIDS, overcrowded cities, and now the war on terrorism.

Michael



"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=URBANG.HTM
>
> excerpt:
>
> <<While passenger aircraft are now pretty secure, the same is not the case
for
> commercial freighters and private aircraft. It is quite possible that a
smaller
> aircraft, or long range transports from foreign nations, could be used for
> suicide attacks. This scenario has terrorists renting a small two engine
> aircraft (like the Piper Aztec or Cessna Businessliner) and flying off to
any
> target within several hundred miles. These aircraft rent for about $250 an
hour
> (with a 3-4 hour minimum). They have a cargo capacity of about half a ton,
and
> that could be filled with explosives. This would give the terrorists the
> equivalent of an American cruise missile (which has a one ton warhead.)
These
> aircraft have a maximum take off weight of about three tons and only carry
> about 500 pounds of fuel. Probably would not bring down a large
skyscraper, but
> would do a lot of damage to the White House or most other government
buildings
> in Washington. You can buy these aircraft second hand for $200-300,000.
>>
>
> I hate stuff like this, but I think it's better to toss it out there and
shine
> light on it than stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't there.
>
>
>
>
>
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>

[S Narayan]

This would be the typical answer from a GA pilot. For the vast majority of
non-pilots (which is reality), they have NOTHING to lose by shutting down
GA. The benefits for them are clear -- elimination of another threat which
they have no knowledge about. On the other hand, guns or other items which
could be used to kill are owned by a large diverse group of people. Trying
to ban those could be highly detrimental to a politicians career if not
worse. For us, the answer is clear, as you have put it below, try to look at
it from the other side of the chainlink fence. The AOPA and the few in
government interested in aviation are the only people standing between us
and the shutting down of GA as we know it.

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> You can also drive down a street shooting people at random and there is
not
> much anybody can do to stop you.
>
> Sure, it is possible to use small aircraft for a terrorist attack. The
> question is, what do you do about it? There is really not much of anything
> anyone can do to prevent it.
>
> Maybe the asteroid is coming, but I am not going to spend a lot of time
> worrying about it.
>
>

[Harry Gordon]

Why? Why is it necessary to use this forum to discuss alternatives that
terrorist can use to destroy what they will? Doesn't the news folks do a
good enough job of telling these individuals our weaknesses? Aren't there
enough people already making enough suggestions?

I'm sorry. I'm just getting really tired of turning on TV or the radio and
the first item in the news is a story for the terrorist on how they might
consider an attack. And now, "we" are going to take it a step further with
more ideas. Why? I wonder how many terrorist read this and other
"informative" newsgroups and listen to CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN, etc.....???

Harry
PP-ASEL

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=URBANG.HTM
>
> excerpt:
>
> <<While passenger aircraft are now pretty secure, the same is not the case
for
> commercial freighters and private aircraft. It is quite possible that a
smaller
> aircraft, or long range transports from foreign nations, could be used for
> suicide attacks. This scenario has terrorists renting a small two engine
> aircraft (like the Piper Aztec or Cessna Businessliner) and flying off to
any
> target within several hundred miles. These aircraft rent for about $250 an
hour
> (with a 3-4 hour minimum). They have a cargo capacity of about half a ton,
and
> that could be filled with explosives. This would give the terrorists the
> equivalent of an American cruise missile (which has a one ton warhead.)
These
> aircraft have a maximum take off weight of about three tons and only carry
> about 500 pounds of fuel. Probably would not bring down a large
skyscraper, but
> would do a lot of damage to the White House or most other government
buildings
> in Washington. You can buy these aircraft second hand for $200-300,000.
>>
>
> I hate stuff like this, but I think it's better to toss it out there and
shine
> light on it than stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't there.
>
>
>
>
>
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>

[Roger Long]

I think AOPA has made a major strategic error with their "Small planes
aren't a terrorist hazard." line. If someone pulls off an attack with one,
their whole position will collapse like a balloon pricked with a pin.

The fact is that small planes are an incredible hazard. Face it, there is
almost nothing that could stop a determined and willing to die pilot flying
50 agl unless exactly the right equipment and an AWACS are right on the
spot. We have enough of that to cover about .005% of the potential targets
that would paralyze the country with fear.

The real point is that GA aircraft are just one of about 500 such threats.
If it is justified to shut down GA then it is justified to lock down the
whole society. Destroying people's livelihoods and freedom when it won't
make the country as a whole safer but just move the threat from planes to
trucks, boats, you name it, is a precedent for a future grimmer in many ways
than the one we are in now.

Hell, a determined group could slowly fill an apartment in Manhattan with
rad waste and explosives carried in over a period of weeks in cardboard
boxes. Who pays attention to people moving in and out of cheap apartments
in New York? Shall we outlaw carrying cardboard boxes up stairs?

They have to catch these people where they live or at the borders. Trying
piecemeal to eliminate or control activities that could be part of a
terrorist plot will lead inevitably to a society more restricted and
controlled than even the one radical Islam envisions.

Now they are worried about carrying almanacs! I kid you not. See CNN or my
other post.

--
Roger Long

[Gary Drescher]

"Harry Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> Why is it necessary to use this forum to discuss alternatives that
> terrorist can use to destroy what they will? ...
> I wonder how many terrorist read this and other
> "informative" newsgroups and listen to CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN,
etc.....???

Don't worry. If we could get Al Qaeda to watch our TV news, their IQs would
so decline that they'd no longer be able to find the US on a map.

[Teacherjh]

>>
Don't worry. If we could get Al Qaeda to watch our TV news, their IQs would
so decline that they'd no longer be able to find the US on a map.
<<

The US is on a map?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Jim Fisher]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message

> Sometimes I feel like I must have been born at the luckiest time in US
> history. I spent my 20's and 30's after WWII, polio, smallpox, the
> depression... before AIDS, overcrowded cities, and now the war on
terrorism.

Oh yeah? Well I spent those years on the 70s and 80s. Sex, sex and rock
and roll! Beat THAT!

--
Jim Fisher

[Peter Gottlieb]

Say what you will about these guys, but I would not underestimate them. It
is rather likely they have thought about it a long time ago.


"Harry Gordon" > wrote in message
...
> Why? Why is it necessary to use this forum to discuss alternatives that
> terrorist can use to destroy what they will? Doesn't the news folks do a
> good enough job of telling these individuals our weaknesses? Aren't there
> enough people already making enough suggestions?
>
> I'm sorry. I'm just getting really tired of turning on TV or the radio and
> the first item in the news is a story for the terrorist on how they might
> consider an attack. And now, "we" are going to take it a step further
with
> more ideas. Why? I wonder how many terrorist read this and other
> "informative" newsgroups and listen to CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN,
etc.....???
>
> Harry
> PP-ASEL
>
> "Rosspilot" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=URBANG.HTM
> >
> > excerpt:
> >
> > <<While passenger aircraft are now pretty secure, the same is not the
case
> for
> > commercial freighters and private aircraft. It is quite possible that a
> smaller
> > aircraft, or long range transports from foreign nations, could be used
for
> > suicide attacks. This scenario has terrorists renting a small two engine
> > aircraft (like the Piper Aztec or Cessna Businessliner) and flying off
to
> any
> > target within several hundred miles. These aircraft rent for about $250
an
> hour
> > (with a 3-4 hour minimum). They have a cargo capacity of about half a
ton,
> and
> > that could be filled with explosives. This would give the terrorists the
> > equivalent of an American cruise missile (which has a one ton warhead.)
> These
> > aircraft have a maximum take off weight of about three tons and only
carry
> > about 500 pounds of fuel. Probably would not bring down a large
> skyscraper, but
> > would do a lot of damage to the White House or most other government
> buildings
> > in Washington. You can buy these aircraft second hand for $200-300,000.
> >>
> >
> > I hate stuff like this, but I think it's better to toss it out there and
> shine
> > light on it than stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > www.Rosspilot.com
> >
> >
>
>

[Judah]

Watch yer grammer:

"We are on a map?"
^^^^^^

(Teacherjh) wrote in
:

>>>
> Don't worry. If we could get Al Qaeda to watch our TV news, their IQs
> would so decline that they'd no longer be able to find the US on a map.
> <<
>
> The US is on a map?
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)
>


;)

[Michael 182]

I don't have to beat it, I was part of it. That's the point - 1953 was a
great year to be born...


"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
>
> > Sometimes I feel like I must have been born at the luckiest time in US
> > history. I spent my 20's and 30's after WWII, polio, smallpox, the
> > depression... before AIDS, overcrowded cities, and now the war on
> terrorism.
>
> Oh yeah? Well I spent those years on the 70s and 80s. Sex, sex and rock
> and roll! Beat THAT!
>
> --
> Jim Fisher
>
>

[StellaStar]

>Watch yer grammer:
>
>"We are on a map?"
> ^^^^^^
>
(Teacherjh) wrote in
:
>
>>>>
>> Don't worry. If we could get Al Qaeda to watch our TV news, their IQs
>> would so decline that they'd no longer be able to find the US on a map.
>> <<
>>
>> The US is on a map?
>>

Us are on a map? The U.S. are on a map? How many are we? Is the bellboy a
member of your family?

[BTIZ]

1956 was not to bad either... LOL

BT

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:_H7Ib.686068$HS4.4875486@attbi_s01...
> I don't have to beat it, I was part of it. That's the point - 1953 was a
> great year to be born...
>
>
> "Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> >
> > > Sometimes I feel like I must have been born at the luckiest time in US
> > > history. I spent my 20's and 30's after WWII, polio, smallpox, the
> > > depression... before AIDS, overcrowded cities, and now the war on
> > terrorism.
> >
> > Oh yeah? Well I spent those years on the 70s and 80s. Sex, sex and
rock
> > and roll! Beat THAT!
> >
> > --
> > Jim Fisher
> >
> >
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jim Fisher wrote:
>
> Oh yeah? Well I spent those years on the 70s and 80s. Sex, sex and rock
> and roll! Beat THAT!

Right on!

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[C J Campbell]

"S Narayan" > wrote in message
...
| This would be the typical answer from a GA pilot. For the vast majority of
| non-pilots (which is reality), they have NOTHING to lose by shutting down
| GA.

It would be more accurate to say that the general public does not know what
they would lose by shutting down GA.

If they shut down GA, most of the general public would have no idea why they
have no jobs, why they can't get their mail, why their doctor or lawyer or
CPA can no longer serve them, why their forests are burning down, why their
seafood suddenly has become more valuable than gold in the few places it is
still available, why children are suddenly dying of cancer, etc. The public
would just blame it on bad handling of "the economy," whatever that is.

[Bill Denton]

1949 was the coolest year to be born! You hit 18 in 1967; the "Summer Of
Love". You not only got to enjoy a changing world, you got to help build it,
too.


"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
...
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
>
> > Sometimes I feel like I must have been born at the luckiest time in US
> > history. I spent my 20's and 30's after WWII, polio, smallpox, the
> > depression... before AIDS, overcrowded cities, and now the war on
> terrorism.
>
> Oh yeah? Well I spent those years on the 70s and 80s. Sex, sex and rock
> and roll! Beat THAT!
>
> --
> Jim Fisher
>
>

[Rosspilot]

> Who pays attention to people moving in and out of cheap apartments
>in New York?

Cheap apartments in New York? There aren't any.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Rosspilot]

1951 was the year . . . :-)


www.Rosspilot.com

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "S Narayan" > wrote in message
> ...
> | This would be the typical answer from a GA pilot. For the vast majority
of
> | non-pilots (which is reality), they have NOTHING to lose by shutting
down
> | GA.
>
> It would be more accurate to say that the general public does not know
what
> they would lose by shutting down GA.
>
> If they shut down GA, most of the general public would have no idea why
they
> have no jobs, why they can't get their mail, why their doctor or lawyer or
> CPA can no longer serve them, why their forests are burning down, why
their
> seafood suddenly has become more valuable than gold in the few places it
is
> still available, why children are suddenly dying of cancer, etc. The
public
> would just blame it on bad handling of "the economy," whatever that is.
>

"However, we cannot opt out of economic issues. Every citizen and every
official they elect has an affect on the economy. Our only options are to be
informed or uninformed when making our choices in the economy or in the
voting booth.
Unfortunately, those who are uninformed -- or, worse yet misinformed -- when
it comes to economics include the intelligentsia, even when they have Ph.D.s
in other fields.

"Economics as a profession has some responsibility for this widespread lack
of understanding. Highly sophisticated economic analysis can be found in
courses on campuses where a majority of the students have no real
understanding of something as elementary as supply and demand.

"Even students taking introductory economics as their one and only course in
the subject may get little that they can take with them out into the world
as citizens and voters. Introductory economics is too often taught as if the
students in it were all potential economists who had to be introduced to the
standard graphs, equations and jargon that they will need in higher level
courses or in the profession." -- Thomas Sowell, _Thoughts on the 'Dismal'
Science_, December 26, 2003

[Rob Perkins]

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:48:52 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"S Narayan" > wrote in message
...
>| This would be the typical answer from a GA pilot. For the vast majority of
>| non-pilots (which is reality), they have NOTHING to lose by shutting down
>| GA.
>
>It would be more accurate to say that the general public does not know what
>they would lose by shutting down GA.
>
>If they shut down GA, most of the general public would have no idea why they
>have no jobs, why they can't get their mail, why their doctor or lawyer or
>CPA can no longer serve them, why their forests are burning down, why their
>seafood suddenly has become more valuable than gold in the few places it is
>still available, why children are suddenly dying of cancer, etc.

....why it's no longer possible to get checks returned in the statement
each month, why the rural economy in Alaska has collapsed, why the
organ transplant system has fractured or been destroyed, why there is
suddenly a shortage of pilots in the U.S...

Rob

[Roger Long]

I didn't mean low rent or low cost, just cheap. There are lots of those.
--
Roger Long

Rosspilot > wrote in message
...
> > Who pays attention to people moving in and out of cheap apartments
> >in New York?
>
> Cheap apartments in New York? There aren't any.
>
>
> www.Rosspilot.com
>
>

[EDR]

In article
>, Harry
Gordon > wrote:

> Why? Why is it necessary to use this forum to discuss alternatives that
> terrorist can use to destroy what they will? Doesn't the news folks do a
> good enough job of telling these individuals our weaknesses? Aren't there
> enough people already making enough suggestions?

Dear Harry,
I am saddened to read that you are deluded in believing that the
federal government of the United States is actually concerned about
protecting the people of the United States.

Alas, the elected officials and bureaucrats are only concerned with
spending the peoples money on useless, high publicity value, contracts
that will get them political favors, campaign contributions and
reelected by the majority, stupid, uninformed electorate.

It's politics, not reality.

Think about it... how many politicians, bureaucrats government
employees went to jail for their failures to prevent 9-11 from
happening when they were sitting on the information that would have
prevented it?

They didn't care about protecting the American people, their only
concern was protecting their political turf and bureaucratic empires.

[S Narayan]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "S Narayan" > wrote in message
> ...
> | This would be the typical answer from a GA pilot. For the vast majority
of
> | non-pilots (which is reality), they have NOTHING to lose by shutting
down
> | GA.
>
> It would be more accurate to say that the general public does not know
what
> they would lose by shutting down GA.

Agreed.

>
> If they shut down GA, most of the general public would have no idea why
they
> have no jobs, why they can't get their mail, why their doctor or lawyer or
> CPA can no longer serve them, why their forests are burning down, why
their
> seafood suddenly has become more valuable than gold in the few places it
is
> still available, why children are suddenly dying of cancer, etc. The
public
> would just blame it on bad handling of "the economy," whatever that is.
>

Let's not forget crop dusters, aerial surveying, photography, pipeline
patrolling etc..
So there goes the cheap, plentiful food from agriculture, more fires and
less security.
Less tourism to some of the more inaccessible locales.
In addition, Alaska might as well be boarded up.

[Jay Honeck]

> 1949 was the coolest year to be born! You hit 18 in 1967; the "Summer Of
> Love". You not only got to enjoy a changing world, you got to help build
it,
> too.

Funny. I was 9 years old in '67, and the thing I remember most about those
times was the unrelenting bad news on TV, radio, and in the newspapers. It
was a terrifying time to be alive, unless you were stoned, I suppose.

Whether it was inner city rioting, or body bags coming home from Viet Nam,
those were certainly NOT the best of times.

Ten years later now, well, heh, heh, THOSE were good times!

Other than disco and polyester, of course... And high inflation. And Jimmy
Carter.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Gideon]

S Narayan wrote:


>
> Let's not forget crop dusters, aerial surveying, photography, pipeline
> patrolling etc..
> So there goes the cheap, plentiful food from agriculture, more fires and
> less security.
> Less tourism to some of the more inaccessible locales.
> In addition, Alaska might as well be boarded up.

Forget it. The average person wouldn't understand the consequences of
shutting down oxygen.

- Andrew

[Blanche]

Why UPS, DHL and FedEx will only deliver to areas close by the
major airports that can handle 737s & 757s.

[Michael 182]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:nomIb.699651$Tr4.1744979@attbi_s03...
> > 1949 was the coolest year to be born! You hit 18 in 1967; the "Summer Of
> > Love". You not only got to enjoy a changing world, you got to help build
> it,
> > too.
>
> Funny. I was 9 years old in '67, and the thing I remember most about
those
> times was the unrelenting bad news on TV, radio, and in the newspapers.
It
> was a terrifying time to be alive, unless you were stoned, I suppose.

No, no I remember it was a great time. At least I think it was. Wait a
minute, it's all a little hazy...

[H. Adam Stevens]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:3poIb.692590$HS4.4915831@attbi_s01...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:nomIb.699651$Tr4.1744979@attbi_s03...
> > > 1949 was the coolest year to be born! You hit 18 in 1967; the "Summer
Of
> > > Love". You not only got to enjoy a changing world, you got to help
build
> > it,
> > > too.
> >
> > Funny. I was 9 years old in '67, and the thing I remember most about
> those
> > times was the unrelenting bad news on TV, radio, and in the newspapers.
> It
> > was a terrifying time to be alive, unless you were stoned, I suppose.
>
> No, no I remember it was a great time. At least I think it was. Wait a
> minute, it's all a little hazy...
>
>
>
Born 7 December, 1949..........
1967 was a great year, I soloed in May, private pilot in July, turned 18 in
December.
cheers
H.

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> 1967 was a great year, I soloed in May, private pilot in July, turned 18
in
> December.

And I was just being born! :-)

[Brian Burger]

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Harry Gordon wrote:

> Why? Why is it necessary to use this forum to discuss alternatives that
> terrorist can use to destroy what they will? Doesn't the news folks do a
> good enough job of telling these individuals our weaknesses? Aren't there
> enough people already making enough suggestions?

I really haven't seen that many totally original ideas WRT terrorist
methods here. Let's face it, most of the ideas are depressingly obvious
anyway.

Heck, Hollywood has already covered a lot of the ideas in far more detail
than this newsgroup is ever going to...

Brian.

> I'm sorry. I'm just getting really tired of turning on TV or the radio and
> the first item in the news is a story for the terrorist on how they might
> consider an attack. And now, "we" are going to take it a step further with
> more ideas. Why? I wonder how many terrorist read this and other
> "informative" newsgroups and listen to CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CNN, etc.....???
>
> Harry
> PP-ASEL
>
> "Rosspilot" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=URBANG.HTM
> >
> > excerpt:
> >
> > <<While passenger aircraft are now pretty secure, the same is not the case
> for
> > commercial freighters and private aircraft. It is quite possible that a
> smaller
> > aircraft, or long range transports from foreign nations, could be used for
> > suicide attacks. This scenario has terrorists renting a small two engine
> > aircraft (like the Piper Aztec or Cessna Businessliner) and flying off to
> any
> > target within several hundred miles. These aircraft rent for about $250 an
> hour
> > (with a 3-4 hour minimum). They have a cargo capacity of about half a ton,
> and
> > that could be filled with explosives. This would give the terrorists the
> > equivalent of an American cruise missile (which has a one ton warhead.)
> These
> > aircraft have a maximum take off weight of about three tons and only carry
> > about 500 pounds of fuel. Probably would not bring down a large
> skyscraper, but
> > would do a lot of damage to the White House or most other government
> buildings
> > in Washington. You can buy these aircraft second hand for $200-300,000.
> >>
> >
> > I hate stuff like this, but I think it's better to toss it out there and
> shine
> > light on it than stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't there.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > www.Rosspilot.com
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Harry Gordon]

"> 1967 was a great year, I soloed in May, private pilot in July, turned 18
in
> December.
> cheers
> H.

Yes it was! I returned from Viet Nam in January of that year.

Harry

>
>