Followup.. Houston fatals last month..

[Dave S]

Some of you may remember the mention of two separate fatal night
accidents in December 2003 in the Houston area. I did some follow up
viewing of the NTSB site and found at least one thing that stood out for me.

I was originally scheduled to take a club checkout that night, and
scrubbed for surface winds that were 18G25, and nowheres close to
aligned with my local runway... and returned home only to hear about the
two separate crashes on the local news.

The same winds were existing throughout the region that evening, and
while the weather was definitely VFR, the bit below makes me wonder
about judgement sometimes..



http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20031215X02037&key=1
<snip>
The local law enforcement officials stated the 70-hour private pilot was
seated in the right seat, and the 25-hour student pilot-rated passenger
was seated in the left seat.
<snip>


I know there is nothing in the FAR's pt 91 about who sits where.. but..
what the heck is a 70 hour private pilot doing in the right seat of an
aircraft on a crappy night like that? Based on what I've been told,
average PP ticket is taking 50-60 hours for the part 61 students in my
area.. Hell.. You've hardly gotten an idea how to fly the plane from the
left at this point.. but thats just my opinion. I also wont swear to it
at this moment, but I want to say the local media reports had this as a
father/son pair in the aircraft. Who knows.. maybe this dead pilot had
10 hours of dual with him in the right seat (not that a specific amount
is needed).. I just have to question - bad winds.. blowing all day and
getting worse all day... very low time pilot, night, right seat, student
in the left seat...

That being said... I've only got a measly 400 hours at this point, and
have gotten where I can fly just as well from the right side.. but I
didnt LEARN to do it without either a CFI or a licensed and current
pilot (who was checked out in the plane) in the left seat

Whats my point? I guess its just a rant. 2 folks I dont know managed to
exhibit poor enough judgement or skills or both in the most ultimate of
ways. Maybe some of the other instructors can use the NTSB report and
scenario to share with their soon to be private pilots about judgment.

Dave

[Jay Honeck]

> The local law enforcement officials stated the 70-hour private pilot was
> seated in the right seat, and the 25-hour student pilot-rated passenger
> was seated in the left seat.

Wow. At night? With strong, gusty winds, and unpredictable weather?

I guess it's hard to fault the student, who probably looked up to the pilot,
unaware of how minimal his experience actually was. But the pilot himself
showed astoundingly bad judgment.

What a waste.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Nasir]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:qMEJb.724197$HS4.5375469@attbi_s01...
> > The local law enforcement officials stated the 70-hour private pilot was
> > seated in the right seat, and the 25-hour student pilot-rated passenger
> > was seated in the left seat.

I am sorry about the loss, but incidents like this make me feel a little bit
safer because I KNOW I am not going to do any stunts like that! Whenever
there is a small plane crash, my friends and family start questioning how
safe flying really is. This accident happened really close to where my
family lives

Now I can explain to them one potential reason for the crash was how a low
hour pilot was flying (on the RIGHT side) with a student pilot on the left
side on a WINDY day with winds NOT aligned to the runway, and that I was
unlikely to do anything risky like this in my flying.

Nasir

[Snowbird]

"Nasir" > wrote in message >...
> I am sorry about the loss, but incidents like this make me feel a little bit
> safer because I KNOW I am not going to do any stunts like that! Whenever
> there is a small plane crash, my friends and family start questioning how
> safe flying really is. This accident happened really close to where my
> family lives

> Now I can explain to them one potential reason for the crash was how a low
> hour pilot was flying (on the RIGHT side) with a student pilot on the left
> side on a WINDY day with winds NOT aligned to the runway, and that I was
> unlikely to do anything risky like this in my flying.

Nasir,

I think your risk assessment does you credit, and I sympathize
with your desire to persuade your friends that flying is not as
unsafe as the accident rate would indicate.

But...I also think there's a natural human tendency to cultivate
feelings of safety or invulnerability, by assessing an accident
until we find a feature we can point to and say "*I* would never
do anything that dumb so *I*'d never...." (run out of fuel,
crash on a windy night, etc etc).

It's natural but unfortunate, because sometimes we'd learn
more by starting from the assumption that these were smart
people who intended to be careful, safe pilots and asking
"why would a smart pilot do something which sounds so dumb?"

It's kinda sad but often true that sometimes pilots are
most proficient, just after or just before their checkrides.
I know when I was a student, I sought out and flew in the
gnarliest wind conditions I could find. Now, with a young
child and limited time to fly which often involves taking
her with me, I don't get nearly as much practice in gnarly
winds. Conditions I would have tackled without a 2nd thought
just after my PPL, I would hesitate now w/ ~500 hrs *because
I know I am less proficient at them*.

Nevertheless it has happened and more than once that I have
set out to arrive at my destination during daylight, with
calm winds, and wound up landing at night with the windsock
pointing an accusing finger at the side of my plane. I've
set out planning an instrument approach in IMC and wound up
making one in night IMC, something I strongly wish to avoid
except as a training exercise.

So my questions are:
*how did they wind up in that position?*
*why did they think this was something they could handle?*
*what choices did they have, once they took off?*
*how did they plan to choose?*
*did they choose, or did they fail to consider and make
choices? if the latter, why?*
*was it a proficiency accident, or was there a mechanical
failure involved? if the latter, is there a better way
to handle it?

Of course we may never know, but it can serve as a starting
point to assess flights where I wind up doing something I
didn't plan on.

All the above is a long winded way of saying, when I was
a new pilot, it comforted me that the principle cause of
accident was pilot error, and often "dumb" pilot errors
like running out of fuel. Now, having seen a couple
accident chains unfold next to me and having come to a
couple points where "there, but for the grace...went I"
it no longer comforts me.

Cheers,
Sydney

[EDR]

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:qMEJb.724197$HS4.5375469@attbi_s01...
> > > The local law enforcement officials stated the 70-hour private pilot was
> > > seated in the right seat, and the 25-hour student pilot-rated passenger
> > > was seated in the left seat.

Darwin Award candidates?

[Magic Fingers]

Sugarland (SGR) is the airport where one of the two crashes happened. The
Archer was landing to the north. Ruway 35 a 1000 foot displaced threshold
(due to the power lines, rr tracks, and highway south of the runway) and an
ILS, however, there are no good visual references to the height above
terrain when landing to the north. There is no PAPI or VASI or other visual
approach help either...just the ILS.
I have seen the preliminary accident report and I know one of the FSDO
investigators. While the wind could possibly have played a role in the
outcome, it appears to me from the location of the wreckage, that the pilot
simply made his approach too low. This is ONLY my opinion.
In the end though, it really matters not. The pilot made a mistake in
judgment and paid the ultimate price for it. Sad.
"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:qMEJb.724197$HS4.5375469@attbi_s01...
> > > > The local law enforcement officials stated the 70-hour private pilot
was
> > > > seated in the right seat, and the 25-hour student pilot-rated
passenger
> > > > was seated in the left seat.
>
> Darwin Award candidates?

[Maule Driver]

"Snowbird" >
>
> It's natural but unfortunate, because sometimes we'd learn
> more by starting from the assumption that these were smart
> people who intended to be careful, safe pilots and asking
> "why would a smart pilot do something which sounds so dumb?"
>snippety snip<
> All the above is a long winded way of saying, when I was
> a new pilot, it comforted me that the principle cause of
> accident was pilot error, and often "dumb" pilot errors
> like running out of fuel. Now, having seen a couple
> accident chains unfold next to me and having come to a
> couple points where "there, but for the grace...went I"
> it no longer comforts me.
>
Yep, good points. Thanks for taking the time to say it.

[Dan Luke]

"Magic Fingers" wrote:
> While the wind could possibly have played a role in the
> outcome, it appears to me from the location of the
> wreckage, that the pilot simply made his approach too low.

Yep. This one really sounds like a "black hole" illusion crash, to me.

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/182402-1.html
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)