Seminole crash - 3 CFIs [Archive]

Bob Gardner

January 3rd 04, 05:12 PM

This morning's paper reports that a Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.

The Seminole is not a real four passenger airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph needed to get on top of the weather, especially over mountains.

Bob Gardner

C J Campbell

January 3rd 04, 05:23 PM

I wonder if it was an ATP Seminole. They might have that many flight
instructors on board.

Robert Moore

January 3rd 04, 05:44 PM

"Bob Gardner" > wrote

Bob, What's all of this crap? :-)

> ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3D1D9.B0977450
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2734.1600" name=GENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This morning's paper reports that a
> Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four
> persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power
> problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Seminole is not a real four passenger
> airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph
> needed to get on top of the weather, especially over
> mountains.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bob Gardner</FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3D1D9.B0977450--

Cecil E. Chapman

January 3rd 04, 05:58 PM

Are you sure that you don't have your newsgroup reader set to display,
'source' ???

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote
>
> Bob, What's all of this crap? :-)
>
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3D1D9.B0977450
> > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > <HTML><HEAD>
> > <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
> > <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2734.1600" name=GENERATOR>
> > <STYLE></STYLE>
> > </HEAD>
> > <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This morning's paper reports that a
> > Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four
> > persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power
> > problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Seminole is not a real four passenger
> > airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph
> > needed to get on top of the weather, especially over
> > mountains.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bob Gardner</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3D1D9.B0977450--
>

Robert Moore

January 3rd 04, 06:18 PM

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote

> Are you sure that you don't have your newsgroup reader set to display,
> 'source' ???

Nope! This is the only post.

Bob

Jay Honeck

January 3rd 04, 06:20 PM

> > Are you sure that you don't have your newsgroup reader set to display,
> > 'source' ???
>
> Nope! This is the only post.

Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Maule Driver

January 3rd 04, 06:23 PM

Same here. No crap.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
> > > Are you sure that you don't have your newsgroup reader set to display,
> > > 'source' ???
> >
> > Nope! This is the only post.
>
> Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

Bob Gardner

January 3rd 04, 06:39 PM

Didn't do anything any differently than any other time I posted a message.

Bob

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote
>
> Bob, What's all of this crap? :-)
>
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3D1D9.B0977450
> > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> > <HTML><HEAD>
> > <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
> > <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2734.1600" name=GENERATOR>
> > <STYLE></STYLE>
> > </HEAD>
> > <BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This morning's paper reports that a
> > Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four
> > persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power
> > problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Seminole is not a real four passenger
> > airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph
> > needed to get on top of the weather, especially over
> > mountains.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bob Gardner</FONT></DIV>
> > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></BODY></HTML>
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C3D1D9.B0977450--
>

Bob Gardner

January 3rd 04, 06:40 PM

It was leased to Auburn Flight Service...I assume that it is the AFS right
here in the Puget Sound area, not the Auburn down by Sacramento.

Bob Gardner

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> I wonder if it was an ATP Seminole. They might have that many flight
> instructors on board.
>
>

Peter Duniho

January 3rd 04, 06:45 PM

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
r.com...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
> > Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
>
> Same here. No crap.

That's because you are all using a newsreader that interprets HTML, which is
what Bob's original post was written in.

He shouldn't have used HTML (nor should anyone be posting to a newsgroup
like this one using HTML), and Robert wound up suffering because he did.
Most people don't, just because their newsreader is hiding poor posting
practices from them.

(Actually, the truth is that if you're paying attention, even in Outlook
Express or other HTML-aware newsreaders, the HTML posts look different. The
poor posting practice isn't so much hidden, as it is made less obvious to
those not aware of the issue).

As for the topic at hand, I don't know much about the Seminole, but without
knowing the weights of the four people in the plane, I don't see how Bob can
say that it's "not a real four passenger airplane". I'm not a small person
(200 pound-ish), and I've flown a 172 with all four seats occupied with
adults, and legally so at that.

Seems to me it's a little premature to be making conclusions about the cause
of the accident. Could easily be that the aircraft load had *nothing* to do
with the crash.

Pete

H. Adam Stevens

January 3rd 04, 07:19 PM

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> r.com...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
> > > Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
> >
> > Same here. No crap.
>
> That's because you are all using a newsreader that interprets HTML, which
is
> what Bob's original post was written in.
>
> He shouldn't have used HTML (nor should anyone be posting to a newsgroup
> like this one using HTML), and Robert wound up suffering because he did.
> Most people don't, just because their newsreader is hiding poor posting
> practices from them.
>
> (Actually, the truth is that if you're paying attention, even in Outlook
> Express or other HTML-aware newsreaders, the HTML posts look different.
The
> poor posting practice isn't so much hidden, as it is made less obvious to
> those not aware of the issue).
>
> As for the topic at hand, I don't know much about the Seminole, but
without
> knowing the weights of the four people in the plane, I don't see how Bob
can
> say that it's "not a real four passenger airplane". I'm not a small
person
> (200 pound-ish), and I've flown a 172 with all four seats occupied with
> adults, and legally so at that.
>
> Seems to me it's a little premature to be making conclusions about the
cause
> of the accident. Could easily be that the aircraft load had *nothing* to
do
> with the crash.
>
> Pete
>
>
Ah but the issue in twins is how well it flies on one engine; and many fly
very poorly while still legal.
A Seminole with two onboard flies nicely on one engine below about 6,000
feet.
Gross weight is another matter; the engines are only 180 hp each.
A PA44-180 was my first twin. I flew it as far as Vermont from Austin,
Texas.
I flew it into Angel Fire, N.M. twice. (Well below gross weight)
Been into grass strips and Sewanee TN. Mustang beach and Love field.
This is not speculation on the cause of the crash, but commentary on the
single-engine performance of the Seminole.
H.

H. Adam Stevens
Comm Multi Inst
ex N2196B PA44-180
ex N739CD C172N
ex N502TB BE58P

C J Campbell

January 3rd 04, 07:20 PM

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
| "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
| r.com...
| >
| > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
| > news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
| > > Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
| >
| > Same here. No crap.
|
| That's because you are all using a newsreader that interprets HTML, which
is
| what Bob's original post was written in.
|
| He shouldn't have used HTML (nor should anyone be posting to a newsgroup
| like this one using HTML

OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that cannot
properly interpret HTML?

Bob Gardner

January 3rd 04, 07:46 PM

I have flown a Seminole over the Cascades with three adult passengers, and
it was a dog. Tops were at 12000 and I was in and out, unable to climb much
higher. I am not proud of my decision to go that day.

Insofar as the HTML question is concerned, I'm not computer savvy enough to
know what I am doing wrong. Why has this question just popped up, after the
many, many times I have posted without changing any settings??

Bob Gardner

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Maule Driver" > wrote in message
> r.com...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
> > > Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
> >
> > Same here. No crap.
>
> That's because you are all using a newsreader that interprets HTML, which
is
> what Bob's original post was written in.
>
> He shouldn't have used HTML (nor should anyone be posting to a newsgroup
> like this one using HTML), and Robert wound up suffering because he did.
> Most people don't, just because their newsreader is hiding poor posting
> practices from them.
>
> (Actually, the truth is that if you're paying attention, even in Outlook
> Express or other HTML-aware newsreaders, the HTML posts look different.
The
> poor posting practice isn't so much hidden, as it is made less obvious to
> those not aware of the issue).
>
> As for the topic at hand, I don't know much about the Seminole, but
without
> knowing the weights of the four people in the plane, I don't see how Bob
can
> say that it's "not a real four passenger airplane". I'm not a small
person
> (200 pound-ish), and I've flown a 172 with all four seats occupied with
> adults, and legally so at that.
>
> Seems to me it's a little premature to be making conclusions about the
cause
> of the accident. Could easily be that the aircraft load had *nothing* to
do
> with the crash.
>
> Pete
>
>

Peter MacPherson

January 3rd 04, 08:34 PM

Here is the preliminary NTSB report....

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/aai/B_0102_N.txt

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:RJCJb.116684$VB2.301103@attbi_s51...
This morning's paper reports that a Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.

The Seminole is not a real four passenger airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph needed to get on top of the weather, especially over mountains.

Bob Gardner

Bob Gardner

January 3rd 04, 08:47 PM

Not the same accident...

Bob Gardner

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message news:PHFJb.724589$HS4.5385034@attbi_s01...
Here is the preliminary NTSB report....

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/aai/B_0102_N.txt

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:RJCJb.116684$VB2.301103@attbi_s51...
This morning's paper reports that a Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.

The Seminole is not a real four passenger airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph needed to get on top of the weather, especially over mountains.

Bob Gardner

C J Campbell

January 3rd 04, 08:49 PM

So one was killed and three were injured, instead of the three killed
reported in the paper. Maybe two of them died after the FAA report was last
updated.

Induction icing does not sound like an "unspecified power problem."

C J Campbell

January 3rd 04, 08:51 PM

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:fTFJb.213118$8y1.747812@attbi_s52...
Not the same accident...

************************************************** **************************
****
** Report created 1/2/2004 Record 2
**
************************************************** **************************
****

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 53505 Make/Model: PA44 Description: PA-44 Seminole,
Turbo Seminole
Date: 01/02/2004 Time: 0235

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: CAVE JUNCTION State: OR Country: US

DESCRIPTION
PILOT REQUESTED LOWER ALTITUDE ENROUTE IFR OAK-OTH. APPROXIMATELY 30 NE OF
CEC, PILOT DECLARED AN EMERGENCY, LOSING POWER, STATED INDUCTION ICING.
NEAREST AIRPORT, ILLINOIS VALLEY, SELECTED AS EMERGENCY FIELD. PILOT
UNABLE
TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, GIVEN VECTORS TO THE AIRPORT. SHERIFF REPORTED
AIRCRAFT DOWN NEAR AIRPORT, 1 FATAL, 3 SERIOUS. CAVE JUNCTION, OR

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 3 Fat: 0 Ser: 3 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: KCEC 020256Z AUTO 30009KT 10SM SCT027 BKN034 BKN065 06/03 A2991 RMK
AO2
RAE11

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Cruise Operation: General Aviation

Departed: (OAK) Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: (OTH) Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing:
Y
Last Radio Cont: 0230 30NE CEC
Last Clearance: DESCENT CLEARANCE

FAA FSDO: PORTLAND, OR (NM09) Entry date: 01/02/2004

Peter MacPherson

January 3rd 04, 08:52 PM

Did you scroll to the bottom? If it's not, it's an incredible coincidence... ; - )

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 53505 Make/Model: PA44 Description: PA-44 Seminole, Turbo Seminole
Date: 01/02/2004 Time: 0235

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed

LOCATION
City: CAVE JUNCTION State: OR Country: US

DESCRIPTION
PILOT REQUESTED LOWER ALTITUDE ENROUTE IFR OAK-OTH. APPROXIMATELY 30 NE OF
CEC, PILOT DECLARED AN EMERGENCY, LOSING POWER, STATED INDUCTION ICING.
NEAREST AIRPORT, ILLINOIS VALLEY, SELECTED AS EMERGENCY FIELD. PILOT UNABLE
TO MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, GIVEN VECTORS TO THE AIRPORT. SHERIFF REPORTED
AIRCRAFT DOWN NEAR AIRPORT, 1 FATAL, 3 SERIOUS. CAVE JUNCTION, OR

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 1
# Crew: 1 Fat: 1 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 3 Fat: 0 Ser: 3 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: KCEC 020256Z AUTO 30009KT 10SM SCT027 BKN034 BKN065 06/03 A2991 RMK AO2
RAE11

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Cruise Operation: General Aviation

Departed: (OAK) Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: (OTH) Flt Plan: IFR Wx Briefing: Y
Last Radio Cont: 0230 30NE CEC
Last Clearance: DESCENT CLEARANCE

FAA FSDO: PORTLAND, OR (NM09) Entry date: 01/02/2004

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:fTFJb.213118$8y1.747812@attbi_s52...
Not the same accident...

Bob Gardner

"Peter MacPherson" > wrote in message news:PHFJb.724589$HS4.5385034@attbi_s01...
Here is the preliminary NTSB report....

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/aai/B_0102_N.txt

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message news:RJCJb.116684$VB2.301103@attbi_s51...
This morning's paper reports that a Seminole crashed near Cave Junction, Oregon, killing three. Of the four persons on board, three were flight instructors. Undefined power problems were reported by the pilot. Conditions were IMC.

The Seminole is not a real four passenger airplane any more than a Cessna 172 is. It just doesn't have the oomph needed to get on top of the weather, especially over mountains.

Bob Gardner

Don Tuite

January 3rd 04, 08:58 PM

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 20:47:07 GMT, "Bob Gardner" >
wrote:

>Not the same accident...

Scroll down.

Don

S Narayan

January 3rd 04, 08:59 PM

It looks like Bob is using Outlook Express from the headers. One can
send in text format by specifying this under "Options - Send"
sub-menu.

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:58:20 -0500, Saryon
> wrote:

>On mine there's a 1KB attachment, with the attachment (in HTML) being
>auto-decoded.
>
>Are you using Agent?
>
>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 18:23:21 GMT, "Maule Driver"
> wrote:
>
>>Same here. No crap.
>>
>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
>>> > > Are you sure that you don't have your newsgroup reader set to display,
>>> > > 'source' ???
>>> >
>>> > Nope! This is the only post.
>>>
>>> Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
>>> --
>>> Jay Honeck
>>> Iowa City, IA
>>> Pathfinder N56993
>>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>>
>>>
>>

Blanche

January 3rd 04, 09:49 PM

C J Campbell > wrote:
>OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that cannot
>properly interpret HTML?

Me. I still use command-line email and news on Unix/Linux.

Incredibly fast.
No chance of spam, trojans or virii.

And yes, I do have spamassassin running, too.

I am *PROUD* to be a troglodyte!

John T

January 3rd 04, 10:04 PM

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:b_EJb.49247$I07.150198@attbi_s53
>
> Insofar as the HTML question is concerned, I'm not computer savvy
> enough to know what I am doing wrong. Why has this question just
> popped up, after the many, many times I have posted without changing
> any settings??

Perhaps because nobody chose to mention it before. :)

If you're interested in correcting the issue, click on Tools | Options, the
click the Send tab. At the bottom of the page will be a section for "News
sending format". Click the "Plain text" option and you're all set.

As a point of netiquette, all news postings should be in plain text to reach
the largest audience possible and to greatly reduce bandwidth requirements.
HTML adds significant transmission overhead to the actual message.

FWIW, Outlook Express 6 (SP1?) offers the option to display all messages as
plain text regardless of sending format. I strongly encourage users to
enable this option to greatly reduce the possibility of accidental viral
infection. This may be set by clicking Tools | Options, then the Read tab
and check the option for "Read all messages in plain text."

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

Jürgen Exner

January 3rd 04, 10:13 PM

C J Campbell wrote:
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
[...]
>> He shouldn't have used HTML (nor should anyone be posting to a
>> newsgroup like this one using HTML
>
> OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that
> cannot properly interpret HTML?

Does it matter? Usenet is a text-only medium and has always been.
Many gateways automatically block any non-text article or articles with
attachments (unless they are posted in one of the *.binary.* NGs). And I for
one am glad they do.

If font and layout are more important to you than content, then you are
welcome to go to some web board. But _PLEASE_ leave Usenet the way it is.

jue

Tom Sixkiller

January 4th 04, 01:31 AM

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
r.com...
> Same here. No crap.

Roger that!

>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:5KDJb.738451$Fm2.658693@attbi_s04...
> > > > Are you sure that you don't have your newsgroup reader set to
display,
> > > > 'source' ???
> > >
> > > Nope! This is the only post.
> >
> > Weird. Bob's post appeared normally on my PC.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 4th 04, 01:36 AM

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> C J Campbell wrote:
> >
> > Induction icing does not sound like an "unspecified power problem."
>
> It does to a reporter who doesn't know what induction icing is.

Or to a reporter that doesn't know what an "induction" system is, much less
what "induction icing" would be.

Larry Fransson

January 4th 04, 02:52 AM

On 2004-01-03 11:46:15 -0800, "Bob Gardner" > said:

> Insofar as the HTML question is concerned, I'm not computer savvy enough
to
> know what I am doing wrong. Why has this question just popped up, after
the
> many, many times I have posted without changing any settings??

It's just the last couple of posts you've made that had the HTML. The
posts are first plain text, then have an HTML version tacked on the end.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

C J Campbell

January 4th 04, 02:53 AM

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
...
| C J Campbell wrote:
| > "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
| [...]
| >> He shouldn't have used HTML (nor should anyone be posting to a
| >> newsgroup like this one using HTML
| >
| > OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that
| > cannot properly interpret HTML?
|
| Does it matter? Usenet is a text-only medium and has always been.
| Many gateways automatically block any non-text article or articles with
| attachments (unless they are posted in one of the *.binary.* NGs). And I
for
| one am glad they do.
|
| If font and layout are more important to you than content, then you are
| welcome to go to some web board. But _PLEASE_ leave Usenet the way it is.
|

I have no plans to change Usenet. But you have to realize that text only
news readers will one day be as obsolescent as the buggy whip and the
Teletype. Neither you nor I will be able to stop it.

G.R. Patterson III

January 4th 04, 03:00 AM

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> Induction icing does not sound like an "unspecified power problem."

It does to a reporter who doesn't know what induction icing is.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Tom Sixkiller

January 4th 04, 12:03 PM

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
> ...
> | > OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that
> | > cannot properly interpret HTML?
> | If font and layout are more important to you than content, then you are
> | welcome to go to some web board. But _PLEASE_ leave Usenet the way it
is.
> |
>
> I have no plans to change Usenet. But you have to realize that text only
> news readers will one day be as obsolescent as the buggy whip and the
> Teletype. Neither you nor I will be able to stop it.

Or, as obsolete as the internal combustion engine...

Robert Moore

January 4th 04, 01:48 PM

Larry Fransson > wrote
> It's just the last couple of posts you've made that had the HTML. The
> posts are first plain text, then have an HTML version tacked on the end.

That's the way they have appeared in "Xnews".

Bob Moore

Peter Duniho

January 4th 04, 09:14 PM

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:b_EJb.49247$I07.150198@attbi_s53...
> I have flown a Seminole over the Cascades with three adult passengers, and
> it was a dog. Tops were at 12000 and I was in and out, unable to climb
much
> higher. I am not proud of my decision to go that day.

Still, I fail to see what relevance to the accident in question that has.
All airplanes have a service ceiling, and the "trick" is to plan the flight
so as to not need to climb above that. Even IFR over the Cascades, there's
no need to go higher than 12000' absent bad weather conditions (icing,
convection, high winds, etc.). MEAs are significantly lower than that.

If there was something wrong with your decision to fly that day, it would
have had something to do with the weather, or the weights of your passenger
(if you flew overgross), or something along those lines. I don't see
anything inherently wrong with flying an airplane at or near maximum gross
weight, and certainly having all the seats full does not necessarily mean
the airplane was over the max gross weight, nor would it necessarily have
contributed anything to the accident in question.

If by "the Seminole is not a real four passenger airplane any more than a
Cessna 172 is", what you meant was "the Seminole can carry four passengers
just fine, depending on their weight", then I misunderstood, and you can
ignore all that I wrote.

> Insofar as the HTML question is concerned, I'm not computer savvy enough
to
> know what I am doing wrong. Why has this question just popped up, after
the
> many, many times I have posted without changing any settings??

Not sure. I haven't been paying close attention, but perhaps your
newsreader is set to post in HTML, but does so only when you are posting a
message that is *not* a reply, using instead the previous post's formatting
(which is almost always plain text) when you are replying.

In other words, when you start a thread, it winds up HTML. When you reply
to a plain text message, it winds up plain text. Could that be the
difference?

Pete

Joe Morris

January 5th 04, 02:32 PM

"H. Adam Stevens" > writes:

>Been into grass strips and Sewanee TN. Mustang beach and Love field.
>This is not speculation on the cause of the crash, but commentary on the
>single-engine performance of the Seminole.

Many people (arguably not enough of them) consider the phrase "single-
engine performance" to be a self-contradictory expression when used
to refer to a light twin. (For the record, my multi checkride back
in 1973 was in a Seneca I on a very hot August day. The examiner
gave me the usual engine failure shortly after takeoff and asked for
an immediate turn into the good engine over a nearby ridge; I told him
where to stuff the request, and passed...)

Joe Morris

H. Adam Stevens

January 5th 04, 02:55 PM

"Joe Morris" > wrote in message
...
> "H. Adam Stevens" > writes:
>
> >Been into grass strips and Sewanee TN. Mustang beach and Love field.
> >This is not speculation on the cause of the crash, but commentary on the
> >single-engine performance of the Seminole.
>
> Many people (arguably not enough of them) consider the phrase "single-
> engine performance" to be a self-contradictory expression when used
> to refer to a light twin. (For the record, my multi checkride back
> in 1973 was in a Seneca I on a very hot August day. The examiner
> gave me the usual engine failure shortly after takeoff and asked for
> an immediate turn into the good engine over a nearby ridge; I told him
> where to stuff the request, and passed...)
>
> Joe Morris

You I'll fly with. ;^)
H.

My P Baron had a page in the POH for density altitude and loading such that
it could fly away after losing an engine before the gear came up. Suffive to
say this condition was often less than gross weight.

Dylan Smith

January 6th 04, 02:05 PM

In article >, C J Campbell wrote:
> OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that cannot
> properly interpret HTML?

Me.

I switch HTML *off* for reading mail and newsgroups. It's just a
security hole waiting to happen (web-bugs et al.)
Most real (ham) email is written in plaintext. Most spam is written in
HTML.

HTML adds nothing worthwhile to usenet, and seldom adds anything
worthwhile to email.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

David Dyer-Bennet

January 6th 04, 10:44 PM

"C J Campbell" > writes:

> OTOH, what kind of benighted troglodyte still uses a newsreader that cannot
> properly interpret HTML?

Me. Much safer, and better looking, and easier to read, and faster,
and better facilities for all the important stuff (like deciding which
messages to read).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>