PowerFLARM protocol version 6

[kirk.stant]

I'm playing with my PFB (on ground near big airport) and while I'm getting good Mode A/C/S hits out to 5NM, I have yet to get an ADS-B return. Is there some special setting in the FLARMcfg file that's needed to enable ADS-B?

Also, in the DataportManual v6.00E, it talks about enabling protocol version 6 via the $PFLAC,S,NMEAOUTn,61 command (n=1 for RJ45, n=2 for Dsub9), but it also states that

"Warning: Values >= 40 are volatile and not stored in EEPROM. They will revert to (<Value> modulo 10) at the next powerup or reset. Example: 43 reverts to 3. This is to make sure that no FLARM accidentally runs a recent version of the protocol if a legacy display or other device is connected."

So, my question (finally!) is: Do we need to enable protocol 6, and if we do, is it reset everytime back to the default? Or should we just leave the NMEAOUT command to 1 for both ports 1 and 2?

Fun stuff, kinda...

Kirk

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, September 3, 2012 1:28:40 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> I'm playing with my PFB (on ground near big airport) and while
> I'm getting good Mode A/C/S hits out to 5NM, I have yet to get
> an ADS-B return. Is there some special setting in the FLARMcfg
> file that's needed to enable ADS-B?

Because of FAA's lame policies and dubious technical decisions
and indecisions, adoption of ADS-B in USA is extremely slow;
well behind other more advanced countries. You won't see much
ADS-B traffic unless you're near a large airport with frequent
international flights to countries more advanced in their ADS-B
implementation.

Sorry to say...
See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 3, 10:28*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> I'm playing with my PFB (on ground near big airport) and while I'm getting good Mode A/C/S hits out to 5NM, I have yet to get an ADS-B return. Is there some special setting in the FLARMcfg file that's needed to enable ADS-B?


Hi Kirk,

In Glendale I see ADS-B targets but not nearly as many as transponder
alone. A few of the airliners approaching KPHX on the MAIR FIVE show
as ADS-B equipped but most are not. The ADS-B targets I see are
usually arriving/departing KDVT. Not surprising that bizjets would
have it but airliners not. Quite possible that the ADS-B targets I
see out of KDVT are avionics flight test aircraft as there are several
based there.

email me if you want some screen photos.

I know that Boeing recently certified for ADS-B Out on the 777 so
expect the others will tag along slowly.

I'm using the brick and Butterfly display and have not included any
commands for port enabling or activating protocol version 6. I have
pushed put my ADS-B and PCAS altitudes way above the defaults though.

BTW in watching the local traffic I think I've identified 2 potential
software bugs in display ver 3.0 when running in "selection" mode.

1. If a target 3 character identifier is displayed, then that
identifier remains associated with all subsequently displayed targets
until the display (only) is reset.

2. With 2 ADS-B targets and a PCAS target, and the PCAS target being
the selected target, when the PCAS target drops out then no target is
selected. Would have expected one of the remaining ADS-B target to
become selected.

I'll continue to look out for these, although I think I have enough
supporting photos.

Andy

[Ramy]

On Monday, September 3, 2012 12:38:35 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
> On Sep 3, 10:28*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > I'm playing with my PFB (on ground near big airport) and while I'm getting good Mode A/C/S hits out to 5NM, I have yet to get an ADS-B return. Is there some special setting in the FLARMcfg file that's needed to enable ADS-B?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Kirk,
>
>
>
> In Glendale I see ADS-B targets but not nearly as many as transponder
>
> alone. A few of the airliners approaching KPHX on the MAIR FIVE show
>
> as ADS-B equipped but most are not. The ADS-B targets I see are
>
> usually arriving/departing KDVT. Not surprising that bizjets would
>
> have it but airliners not. Quite possible that the ADS-B targets I
>
> see out of KDVT are avionics flight test aircraft as there are several
>
> based there.
>
>
>
> email me if you want some screen photos.
>
>
>
> I know that Boeing recently certified for ADS-B Out on the 777 so
>
> expect the others will tag along slowly.
>
>
>
> I'm using the brick and Butterfly display and have not included any
>
> commands for port enabling or activating protocol version 6. I have
>
> pushed put my ADS-B and PCAS altitudes way above the defaults though.
>
>
>
> BTW in watching the local traffic I think I've identified 2 potential
>
> software bugs in display ver 3.0 when running in "selection" mode.
>
>
>
> 1. If a target 3 character identifier is displayed, then that
>
> identifier remains associated with all subsequently displayed targets
>
> until the display (only) is reset.
>
>
>
> 2. With 2 ADS-B targets and a PCAS target, and the PCAS target being
>
> the selected target, when the PCAS target drops out then no target is
>
> selected. Would have expected one of the remaining ADS-B target to
>
> become selected.
>
>
>
> I'll continue to look out for these, although I think I have enough
>
> supporting photos.
>
>
>
> Andy

Andy, I noticed today the same issue as you described in no 1, but mostly with PCAS alerts. In other words, PCAS alert will show the same identifier as the last flarm alert I received hours ago, and that glider was nowhere near me anymore.
Other than that, PCAS seem to work very sporadic, and mostly alerts after the traffic had already passed. Not good.
Is there a place where we can enter bug reports?

Ramy

Ramy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 3, 11:58*pm, Ramy > wrote:

> Is there a place where we can enter bug reports?

Direct email to either FLARM or Butterfly is the only option I'm aware
of.

Is anyone thinking of setting up a PowerFLARM user group?

Andy GY

[kirk.stant]

Ok, I finally picked up a couple of ADS-B targets Monday evening - first what appeared to be a bizjet, then an AA (American Airlines?) into STL.

Got the same bug where the ADS-B callsign (AA1) sticks at the bottom of the display after the track is gone. Annoying, but not a big deal.

With my antenna in the car (hanging from the mirror), I'm getting initial PCAS hits at about 3 miles, but they then hang on until reaching the 5 mile PCAS limit set in the config file (9250m). It does seem that the PFB has a delay identifying and displaying PCAS track at first.

On first look, I would say the Butterfly people need to tweak their PCAS display a bit for the US market: the distance ring needs to be thicker (and green if no conflict (above/below), the altitude font needs to be bigger, and it would be nice if there was a digital readout of range on the side.

I would like a single beep when the display changes to show traffic and whenever a new track is displayed, then maybe 3 beeps when traffic gets close enough to be a threat.

Also, a nice enhancement would be the capability to display local time in the center of the display (below the UTC time, in a bigger font) when not on the radar display. Add a config to set UTC offset, and choice of 12 or 24 hour clock. And make that goofy red butterfly smaller!

As previously mentioned in another thread somewhere - it's definitely worth your time to play with this thing on the ground before flying with it - too bad there isn't a simulation mode to show all the various displays.

Kirk
66

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 4, 7:14*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:

Glad you see ADS-B targets now.

re"On first look, I would say the Butterfly people need to tweak their
PCAS display a bit for the US market: the distance ring needs to be
thicker (and green if no conflict (above/below), "

The PCAS range ring goes red when indicating a conflict. Thanks to
the local helicopter traffic I have photos of that. Trouble is that,
when the conflict exist, the range ring is very small and not very
attention getting. It does not auto scale change and perhaps it
should.

I have also seen the dedicated warning screen for a helicopter
overflight. Maybe that one was ADS-B out equipped. Unfortunately was
not fast enough to get a picture.

To really understand how this display works we either need much better
documentation or a PC based simulator that can drive the display
directly. I'm thinking of setting up a few static test cases but
don't plan on taking on anything more ambitious than that.

Andy (GY)

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:34:43 AM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
" The PCAS range ring goes red when indicating a conflict. Thanks to the local helicopter traffic I have photos of that. Trouble is that, when the conflict exist, the range ring is very small and not very attention getting."

That's what I'm seeing too. And the red sometimes turns to black after awhile, then becomes red again when it refreshes the target info, apparently.

Bottom line - the warning cues for a near (altitude & slant range) PCAS target are poor at present, but should be fixable.

Hope Butterfly and/or PowerFLARM USA is reading this.

Kirk
66

[Ramy]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 10:11:46 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:34:43 AM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
>
> " The PCAS range ring goes red when indicating a conflict. Thanks to the local helicopter traffic I have photos of that. Trouble is that, when the conflict exist, the range ring is very small and not very attention getting."
>
>
>
> That's what I'm seeing too. And the red sometimes turns to black after awhile, then becomes red again when it refreshes the target info, apparently.
>
>
>
> Bottom line - the warning cues for a near (altitude & slant range) PCAS target are poor at present, but should be fixable.
>
>
>
> Hope Butterfly and/or PowerFLARM USA is reading this.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

I doubt Butterfly or Powerflarm USA is reading this, otherwise they would have responded. They should provide a forum for such discussion which they will monitor. However some of the readers such as Dave are affiliated with PowerFlarm so hopefully can discuss those issues with them. There was definitely feedback with the antenna installation issues. Speaking of which, I am getting very good reception (5+ miles in front,2+ miles behind)with my antennas installed in the nose of my 27 which is carbon free, so before you decide to stick a bulky antenna in front of your eyes, I suggest experimenting with cleaner installation.

Ramy

[Brad[_2_]]

On Sep 3, 10:28*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> I'm playing with my PFB (on ground near big airport) and while I'm getting good Mode A/C/S hits out to 5NM, I have yet to get an ADS-B return. Is there some special setting in the FLARMcfg file that's needed to enable ADS-B?
>
> Also, in the DataportManual v6.00E, it talks about enabling protocol version 6 via the $PFLAC,S,NMEAOUTn,61 command (n=1 for RJ45, n=2 for Dsub9), but it also states that
>
> "Warning: Values >= 40 are volatile and not stored in EEPROM. They will revert to (<Value> modulo 10) at the next powerup or reset. Example: 43 reverts to 3. This is to make sure that no FLARM accidentally runs a recent version of the protocol if a legacy display or other device is connected."
>
> So, my question (finally!) is: *Do we need to enable protocol 6, and if we do, is it reset everytime back to the default? Or should we just leave the NMEAOUT command to 1 for both ports 1 and 2?
>
> Fun stuff, kinda...
>
> Kirk

Over the weekend I noticed 2 targets showed up on my Portable PF
screen; one was a large triangle with a +99 and the other was a
smaller triangle with just an up arrow next to it. There was no glider
traffic in the area (with PF). I went to the Flarm Screen on my LK8000
and saw the aircraft were cruising about 30,000+ feet. I though
something must be wrong until I looked up and to the NE where there
were 2 sets of contrails basically matching what the info PF was
showing.

It was kinda cool to see this, but do I need to know this kind of
info?

Brad

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 5, 9:28*am, Brad > wrote:
> It was kinda cool to see this, but do I need to know this kind of
> info?

What do you have the range and altitude limits set to for each target
type? Can't you decide what is displayed and what is not?

Andy (GY)

[Brad[_2_]]

On Sep 5, 9:50*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Sep 5, 9:28*am, Brad > wrote:
>
> > It was kinda cool to see this, but do I need to know this kind of
> > info?
>
> What do you have the range and altitude limits set to for each target
> type? *Can't you decide what is displayed and what is not?
>
> Andy (GY)

I'll have to check and see what I have for settings, but if I recall
the range was set to 16 miles and the altitude was set for 4000'. I
recently loaded the latest PF update, and left the settings to
whatever the default was/is, I did need to reset my ICAO code.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about not being able to decide
what I want/do-not want to show. If you have some helpful suggestions
I am all ears! This is a new device for me and I am not that savvy yet
as to how to best set it up.

Brad

[Baer]

Am 04.09.2012 21:28, schrieb Ramy:

> I doubt Butterfly or Powerflarm USA is reading this, otherwise they
> would have responded. They should provide a forum for such discussion
> which they will monitor.
.........
>
> Ramy

There is a Flarm forum since many years at http://www.flarm.ch (to be
more specific: http://flarm.invisionzone.com/ )
But it is absolutely useless to ask or propose there anything. Look at
the dates of the last posts.
I made a proposal at 'PowerFLARM' January 18th 2011. Since then there
are 1138 views but no answer or feedback. I would have noproblem if they
would tell me that the idea is stupid. But I would lke to be taken serious.
My opinion: forget them!

Bear

[Jim[_32_]]

On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 3:28:07 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 10:11:46 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:34:43 AM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > " The PCAS range ring goes red when indicating a conflict. Thanks to the local helicopter traffic I have photos of that. Trouble is that, when the conflict exist, the range ring is very small and not very attention getting."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That's what I'm seeing too. And the red sometimes turns to black after awhile, then becomes red again when it refreshes the target info, apparently.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Bottom line - the warning cues for a near (altitude & slant range) PCAS target are poor at present, but should be fixable.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hope Butterfly and/or PowerFLARM USA is reading this.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Kirk
>
> >
>
> > 66
>
>
>
> I doubt Butterfly or Powerflarm USA is reading this, otherwise they would have responded. They should provide a forum for such discussion which they will monitor. However some of the readers such as Dave are affiliated with PowerFlarm so hopefully can discuss those issues with them. There was definitely feedback with the antenna installation issues. Speaking of which, I am getting very good reception (5+ miles in front,2+ miles behind)with my antennas installed in the nose of my 27 which is carbon free, so before you decide to stick a bulky antenna in front of your eyes, I suggest experimenting with cleaner installation.
>
>
>
> Ramy
Hey Ramy, is the range you reported for PCAS or Flarm reception? I have my PB antennas in the nose of my all glass glider and have great PCAS range but very poor Flarm range.

-Jim

[Andy[_1_]]

On Sep 5, 10:08*am, Brad > wrote:
> I'm not sure I understand your comment about not being able to decide
> what I want/do-not want to show. If you have some helpful suggestions
> I am all ears! This is a new device for me and I am not that savvy yet
> as to how to best set it up.

You can configure the unit to display only trafic that is close enough
in range and altitude to be of interest to you. ( I didn't say
anything about your ability to decide - perhaps a difference between
English and American idiom)

Andy

[Ramy]

It is the other way for me. I normally see Flarm traffic way before I get the PCAS alert from the same glider, if at all. Both antennas are located in the nose so this can't be an antenna installation issue.

Ramy

[Fox Sierra]

Ramy, could you please post a picture or diagram of your antenna installation in the '27 nose?
Thanks in advance!
Fernando Silva ('FS')

[Kimmo Hytoenen]

At 02:01 08 September 2012, Fox Sierra wrote:
>Ramy, could you please post a picture or diagram of your antenna
>installation in the '27 nose?
>Thanks in advance!
>Fernando Silva ('FS')
>

If your FLARM antenna works extremely well in one direction, it is
likely that it is weaker into some other directions. When you have a
possibility to have two antennas with your PowerFLARM's, would it
be a good idea to have directional antenna in one receiver, and
then omnidirectional in the rx/tx one.