Collision Avoidance

[K]

I am going to be setting up a new (TO me) glider panel during our fast approaching off season. Standard category if it matters and two of the things on the list are PowerFlarm and a Transponder. From talking to some people (Suppliers and other pilots) there are a few who are doing either or, and one who is forgoing the installation of a TX for a PF. Am I missing something? I have always thought you needed both the TX and PF. Have been flying with PF and so far it is doing a good job of detecting TX equipped gliders and power planes.

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 8:12:53 AM UTC-4, K wrote:
> I am going to be setting up a new (TO me) glider panel during our fast approaching off season. Standard category if it matters and two of the things on the list are PowerFlarm and a Transponder. From talking to some people (Suppliers and other pilots) there are a few who are doing either or, and one who is forgoing the installation of a TX for a PF. Am I missing something? I have always thought you needed both the TX and PF. Have been flying with PF and so far it is doing a good job of detecting TX equipped gliders and power planes.

Principal benefits for a glider:
- Transponder makes you visible to TCAS of heavies.
- Use PowerFLARM for everything else.
For *most* gliders PowerFLARM will be more useful.
You don't *need* either.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

PS: Please study http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

On Sep 5, 7:12*am, K > wrote:
> I am going to be setting up a new (TO me) glider panel during our fast approaching off season. Standard category if it matters and two of the things on the list are PowerFlarm and a Transponder. From talking to some people (Suppliers and other pilots) there are a few who are doing either or, and one who is forgoing the installation of a TX for a PF. Am I missing something? I have always thought you needed both the TX and PF. Have been flying with PF and so far it is doing a good job of detecting TX equipped gliders and power planes.

My 2c: It depends where you are and cost/benefit.

I fly in the Chicago area, near a lot of commercial traffic, and lots
of power traffic that is talking to ATC. The transponder means they
see us. The transponder triggers the jet and bizjet tcas. The
transponder means ATC routes jets around us. (I've watched southwest
737 turn away from us.) The transponder means that parachute jump
operations, talking to center, see you and won't jump on top of you.
Flying above Aurora class D the other day, the transponder triggered a
friendly call, did I know I was 2 miles from Ohare class B and headed
right for it. (Answer, yes thanks. Answer omitted, yes, and there is a
fat cumulus cloud 1/2 mile ahead after which I'm going to turn left.)
Of course, the transponder means you'd better fly right because the
FAA is watching, but we all do that anyway.

Flarm is great. (Well, I hope so if I ever get the thing installed.
Thanks for making it so easy, Flarm. :)) But you are invisible to them
with flarm.

I regard flarm as primarily to avoid glider-glider collisions, and
helps me see them. The transponder helps them see you. Definitely
worth it.

John Cochrane.

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 5:12:53 AM UTC-7, K wrote:
> I am going to be setting up a new (TO me) glider panel during our fast approaching off season. Standard category if it matters and two of the things on the list are PowerFlarm and a Transponder. From talking to some people (Suppliers and other pilots) there are a few who are doing either or, and one who is forgoing the installation of a TX for a PF. Am I missing something? I have always thought you needed both the TX and PF. Have been flying with PF and so far it is doing a good job of detecting TX equipped gliders and power planes.

As Dave said, it depends on where you fly. I got a transponder because the airline traffic into/out of McCarren Int'l is intense, and often flies right through the routes into/out of Jean. Before I installed a transponder, I often spent a good part of the first hour of each flight dodging heavies. I rarely see another glider, and the GA traffic is well below me.

[Mike the Strike]

I've had a transponder in my glider since 2006 and, like John, have the benefit of watching commercial airliners diverted around me. I also once saw a pair of F-16s pulling a high-g maneuver to avoid me. However, it doesn't confer immunity from all power traffic, especially light twins and some military aircraft. The nearest collision I've had was another glider flying head-on under a cloud street - we passed within 100-feet of each other.

I'm not sure the FAA always pays a lot of attention to glider traffic after I inadvertently flew into Mexico and back not too long ago - that usually brings Border Patrol aircraft on your tail! They either didn't notice or decided to ignore me!

Mike

[K]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 8:37:15 AM UTC-6, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I've had a transponder in my glider since 2006 and, like John, have the benefit of watching commercial airliners diverted around me. I also once saw a pair of F-16s pulling a high-g maneuver to avoid me. However, it doesn't confer immunity from all power traffic, especially light twins and some military aircraft. The nearest collision I've had was another glider flying head-on under a cloud street - we passed within 100-feet of each other.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure the FAA always pays a lot of attention to glider traffic after I inadvertently flew into Mexico and back not too long ago - that usually brings Border Patrol aircraft on your tail! They either didn't notice or decided to ignore me!
>
>
>
> Mike

Mike, UF, John and Dave,
Thanks for the responses. I fly in two areas of heavy power and airliner traffic and your comments validate my concerns. It makes me wonder if we will have both the TX and PF functions combined into one unit someday. For now I will live with two separate installations.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:10:18 AM UTC-5, K wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 8:37:15 AM UTC-6, Mike the Strike wrote: > I've had a transponder in my glider since 2006 and, like John, have the benefit of watching commercial airliners diverted around me. I also once saw a pair of F-16s pulling a high-g maneuver to avoid me. However, it doesn't confer immunity from all power traffic, especially light twins and some military aircraft. The nearest collision I've had was another glider flying head-on under a cloud street - we passed within 100-feet of each other. > > > > I'm not sure the FAA always pays a lot of attention to glider traffic after I inadvertently flew into Mexico and back not too long ago - that usually brings Border Patrol aircraft on your tail! They either didn't notice or decided to ignore me! > > > > Mike Mike, UF, John and Dave, Thanks for the responses. I fly in two areas of heavy power and airliner traffic and your comments validate my concerns. It makes me wonder if we will have both the TX and PF functions combined into one unit someday. For now I will live with two separate installations.

I have a transponder in the Cherokee and have recently bought a portable powerFLARM. it has alerted me twice now to airplanes about to cruise through my thermal at my altitude. I still haven't seen a glider on it. Only a few locals are equipped with PowerFLARM.

[Jim[_32_]]

My take:

A transponder lets those with TCAS (usually airliners and biz jets) get immediate in-cockpit alerts to divert. ATC can also alert any aircraft on IFR or Flight Watch verbally of conflicts. Your transponder will do NOTHING to let you know who is about to skewer you (unless you happen to be in comm with ATC). Best if you fly near Class B/C.

A PCAS lets YOU know who is near you with a transponder (includes GA, Biz jets, and some gliders, if equipped). A pure PCAS is relatively cheap on eBay. PowerFlarm as a built in PCAS. Great for flying near busy GA airports.

PowerFlarm has a two kinds transponder detection. One is a simple PCAS function. The other is ADS-B (presently only some transponder equipped aircraft have ADS-B capability) which gives you additional location and identification information. Great for flying near busy GA airports.

PowerFlarm additionally has Flarm-to-Flarm alerts which gives each flarm equipped aircraft distance, direction and ID. There are very few Flarm equipped aircraft in the US but numbers are growing. The flarm-to-flarm protocol is also clever in that it filters out non-threatening encounters (i.e., in a gaggle or flying with a buddy on the ridge). Best for glider contests and good for gliding areas if you have other gliders in your area with Flarms. Useless if they don't a Flarm too.

Having both a PowerFlarm and a transponder covers you the best for all airspace. I flew for a while with only a PCAS and was impressed enough that I wouldn't fly without at least a PCAS. I recently replaced it with a PowerFlarm. I got PCAS hits but only one Flarm alert so far. As soon as I save enough pennies I'll be investing in a transponder as well. Probably the Trig21 as it has lowest power consumption and is compact with it's built-in altitude encoder. Having the tiny display separate from the core electronics box also makes cramming it into tight panels more likely.

-Jim

[Dave Nadler]

On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 11:10:18 AM UTC-4, K wrote:
> me wonder if we will have both the TX and PF functions
> combined into one unit someday.

Well, immense certification costs spread over a
small market make this a not-so-great idea.
Unless a "certified module" was adapted (Georg ?).

Better: replace remote head (as in Trig)
with interface to existing glider stuff (doable
but may not meet transponder legal requirements
in some situations/venues).

See ya, Dave