Butterfly external display questions

[Andy[_1_]]

I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.

The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.

My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.

I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.

Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.

So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.

Photos of the light leaks available by email.

thanks,

Andy.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
> "I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself....So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable."

Andy, my Butterfly external display also has light leaks. They do not appear to be a problem in terms of display visibility.

Warning beep is loud enough that I can hear it in my car while driving with the radio on - but not real loud like my MRX PCAS. Not sure how that will translate into my glider cockpit.

As I also intend to send the PFlarm data to my SN10 and Oudie, hopefully I'll have enough warnings to wake up and look out the window!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[Ramy]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 1:31:43 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
>
> > "I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself....So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable."
>
>
>
> Andy, my Butterfly external display also has light leaks. They do not appear to be a problem in terms of display visibility.
>
>
>
> Warning beep is loud enough that I can hear it in my car while driving with the radio on - but not real loud like my MRX PCAS. Not sure how that will translate into my glider cockpit.
>
>
>
> As I also intend to send the PFlarm data to my SN10 and Oudie, hopefully I'll have enough warnings to wake up and look out the window!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

I did not notice light leaks from my external display, but the volume is indeed not loud enough, especially if more wind noise is presented. It is definitely not as noticeable as the MRX alerts. I did not compare to powerflram portable. I am also curious if the butterfly in panel display has higher volume.
There are definitely issues with Powerflarm which can and needs to be addressed, yet the lack of any forum or means to provide feedback, ask questions and get answers is starting to really irritate! You would expect that between butterfly, Powerflarm USA and the US dealers, someone will start providing official support, but so far, it seems like everybody is just guessing or figuring things on their own.
Having said that, I am pretty sure that all these issues can be and will be addressed with firmware updates or under warranty, and even with those issues, the Powerflarm as it is now is working well so there is no reason to delay getting one.

Ramy

Ramy

[Doug[_7_]]

I flew with Power Flarm brick for the first time on Sunday. I flew with two other PF gliders.

I did not see light leaks on the external display. I found the PF alert volume to be more than adequate... down right frightening in fact. The alert volume for transponders was much lower and I think only a single beep. My Butterfly display is at the top of my panel and the red ring for transponder alerts got my attention.

Overall, I thought the PF was fun to fly with because I could more easily track the other gliders. Without exception, PF "saw" gliders long before I did and was very useful for visually finding other gliders.

I think PF will be great in situations where I can't see others. Potential collisions with head on, behind, above and below traffic will almost surely be reduced with PF.

In thermalling situations where I can see other gliders I'm less convinced of PF's utility. Eyes outside the cockpit are still the best device. I did have one alarm while thermalling and it happened as I was leaving a situation I didn't like. I got out before I thought there was a collision risk, but there was no doubt that such a risk was developing. It seems like the alert was about right were I not already monitoring the risk.

I don't know how PF will behave in a real gaggle. I think it will be really loud in the cockpit.

I'm looking forward to flying more with PF. I'm glad to have a PCAS for transponders at last. I abandoned the purchase of Zaon because PF has been coming for years. I'm glad it's here. The PCAS alerts seemed to work well for me, but it was a light traffic day.

I did find the range for picking up other gliders to be wildly variable. It was beyond 6km at times and at other times it was within 1km. I will say neither of the other gliders ever snuck up on me. I flew at least half of the flight with only one other glider and did see the range variability then.

I am frustrated with the lack of support for this product. This forum is the best, and only, source of information. The powerflarm.us site adds little if any value to the paper documentation provided with the unit.

I fly an LS4a and have a TT21.

[Whiskey Delta]

"There are definitely issues with Powerflarm which can and needs to be
addressed, yet the lack of any forum or means to provide feedback, ask
questions and get answers is starting to really irritate! You would
expect that between butterfly, Powerflarm USA and the US dealers,
someone will start providing official support, but so far, it seems
like everybody is just guessing or figuring things on their own."

I think you just outlined several very good reasons for not getting
one. I am a firm believer in the technology and its usefulness, but I
find the apparent lack of support to be somewhat arrogant. As such, I
have a very hard time paying the not insignificant price for hardware
that has no support, poor (at best) documentation and features that
may or may not work as advertised.

I cancelled my order for the above reasons.

WD

[Ramy]

I think it is important to balance the safety that such device provides vs the lack of good support. After flying with Powerflarm for couple of month I can say that although I am frustrated with the lack of support, I wouldn't want to fly again without it, and encourage everyone to get one.
Actually the issue is not lack of support, but perhaps lack of good communication or acceptable web site and manual.

Ramy

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Sep 12, 3:36*am, Ramy > wrote:
> I think it is important to balance the safety that such device provides vs the lack of good support. After flying with Powerflarm for couple of month I can say that although I am frustrated with the lack of support, I wouldn't want to fly again without it, and encourage everyone to get one.
> Actually the issue is not lack of support, but perhaps lack of good communication or acceptable web site and manual.
>
> Ramy

The original post points to lack of support! It also appears there are
warranty issues that neither Butterfly nor PF want to resolve. I was
busy at work and I had no time to install my PF yet. I certainly hope
when I turn the unit on later today I will not have the same issues.

[Jim[_32_]]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 4:19:30 PM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
> I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.
>
>
>
> The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.
>
>
>
> My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.
>
>
>
> I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.
>
>
>
> Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.
>
>
>
> So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.
>
>
>
> Photos of the light leaks available by email.
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
> Andy.

I have been flying with my PF Brick, Butterfly external rectangular display and connected ClearNav for my last 5 flights. My observations are that:
1) the Butterfly external rectangular display audio alerts are very good for PF-to-PF conflicts but extremely deficient in transponder alerts.
2) If my display has "light leaks" I haven't noticed them so not a problem for me. I'll have to check for you next time I take my glider out of the box.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
> I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks. I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays. Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer. So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable. Photos of the light leaks available by email. thanks, Andy.

In a seperate thread I had requested help in getting Flarm contacts to show on my Clearnav. A good suggestion was to insure I had the latest clearnav software uploaded which I have confirmed. I also get the lower case flarm "f" but I am not showing any contacts on the Clearnav screen. I have experimented with all zoom levels and still no luck. Any additional suggestions?

Seperately the range is consistantly around 2.5 miles which is dissapointing given my very careful antenna and gps installation. I certainly hope there is improvement.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 1:19:30 PM UTC-7, Andy wrote:

Butterfly did answer my questions a day after forwarding the email to Kuhlke. Kuhlke declined to comment on the light leak photos but did offer to evaluate the unit if I sent it together with return shipping.

I'll share the Butterfly reply here since I know of no other forum for discussing this equipment. This was my second pass at these question and the additional detail of the first pass questions is not included:

>>I would like an answer from Butterfly whether the light leaks are a defect or if this is typical of all production units.
....It is within the framework of the tolerances and quite normal.

>>If the hole is for the alerter, I suspect the path to the sound element is
blocked.
...We don´t want a path because of wetness and it don´t have influence on our sound volume tests.

Based on this reply I assume my display is typical of current production.


Andy

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Sep 12, 10:07*am, wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote:
> > I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks. I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays. Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer. So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable. Photos of the light leaks available by email. thanks, Andy..
>
> In a seperate thread I had requested help in getting Flarm contacts to show on my Clearnav. A good suggestion was to insure I had the latest clearnav software uploaded which I have confirmed. I also get the lower case flarm "f" but I am not showing any contacts on the Clearnav screen. I have experimented with all zoom levels and still no luck. Any additional suggestions?
>
> Seperately the range is consistantly around 2.5 miles which is dissapointing given my very careful antenna and gps installation. I certainly hope there is improvement.

You should have v 2.2.0.25 (beta) loaded.

1. Always apply power to PowerFlarm first or within a few seconds of
powering up ClearNav. If you wait as long as a minute after starting
ClearNav, CN may never see the PowerFlarm serial communication.

2. Verify communication on serial port in CN (menu/settings/tools
iirc). Verify that flarm data display is "on" (menu/settings/personal
iirc).

3. You need to zoom in such that the distance scale on the center box
is about 1 mile. Any closer in / further out and you may not see your
targets. The targets show as sailplane silhouettes drawn a bit
lighter than the one that represents yourself, with orientation that
shows direction of flight and a number that shows relative altitude.
If targets are showing on a flarm external display, they should also
show on CN. I've seen this working on my display, but have not flown
in a "Flarm Rich Environment" since adding ClearNav. I'll be at R4S
in a couple of days and will have much more experience, very shortly.

4. Alerts will show on CN on the top 1/2 the display accompanied by
audio. It'll get your attention. I don't think CN displays mode c/s
contacts at present (I see these on my Butterfly display, but not on
CN) and I simply don't know about adsb.

This is obviously all work in progress.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Marc - Butterfly Avionics]

Gentlemen,

please let me give you some short details.

Support:
PowerFLARM Displays are sold and supported in the US. Butterfly as a brand has nothing to do with PowerFLARM Displays and its support. The display design of course comes from us (Butterfly). The FLARM USA team answers all your questions and has good knowledge on the product.

Sounder Volume:
Yes, the sounder volume is limited. This is a design decision because of the very limited current that FLARM (mostly the classic one) delivers to external displays and because of size. Most pilots like it, in Europe we have sold quite some displays even to powered aircraft pilots with good results (way louder than in gliders).

Light-leakage:
This happens due to production variances in the display components we use. It neither affects performance nor power consumption and is absolutely normal.

Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve our products.

Best wishes
Marc
Butterfly Avionics, Germany



Am Dienstag, 11. September 2012 22:19:30 UTC+2 schrieb Andy:
> I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.
>
>
>
> The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.
>
>
>
> My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.
>
>
>
> I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.
>
>
>
> Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.
>
>
>
> So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.
>
>
>
> Photos of the light leaks available by email.
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
> Andy.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

Forgot to add: if you don't see serial comm coming from PF to CN,
double check your PF configuration file to make certain the serial
comm is set correctly and make certain cables are properly connected.
Comm needs to be 19.2kbaud to show non-alert targets. PF will inhibit
data transmission for non-hazardous targets if slower transmission
rates are selected.

"IIRC" applies to all of this. It's all still new and evolving.

T8

[Jim[_32_]]

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 11:13:54 AM UTC-4, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
>
>
> please let me give you some short details.
>
>
>
> Support:
>
> PowerFLARM Displays are sold and supported in the US. Butterfly as a brand has nothing to do with PowerFLARM Displays and its support. The display design of course comes from us (Butterfly). The FLARM USA team answers all your questions and has good knowledge on the product.
>
>
>
> Sounder Volume:
>
> Yes, the sounder volume is limited. This is a design decision because of the very limited current that FLARM (mostly the classic one) delivers to external displays and because of size. Most pilots like it, in Europe we have sold quite some displays even to powered aircraft pilots with good results (way louder than in gliders).
>
>
>
> Light-leakage:
>
> This happens due to production variances in the display components we use.. It neither affects performance nor power consumption and is absolutely normal.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve our products.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Marc
>
> Butterfly Avionics, Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, 11. September 2012 22:19:30 UTC+2 schrieb Andy:
>
> > I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Photos of the light leaks available by email.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > thanks,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Andy.

Thanks Marc for your reply! I hope you continue to monitor and comment on RAS. I would like to suggest that in the next release of software you consider allowing us to modify the maximum volume if we have the PF Brick (which has more power available for displays than the classic).

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 10:06:07 AM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Sep 12, 10:07*am, wrote: > On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:19:30 PM UTC-5, Andy wrote: > > I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two. The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.. My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks. I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays. Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer. So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable. Photos of the light leaks available by email. thanks, Andy. > > In a seperate thread I had requested help in getting Flarm contacts to show on my Clearnav. A good suggestion was to insure I had the latest clearnav software uploaded which I have confirmed. I also get the lower case flarm "f" but I am not showing any contacts on the Clearnav screen. I have experimented with all zoom levels and still no luck. Any additional suggestions? > > Seperately the range is consistantly around 2.5 miles which is dissapointing given my very careful antenna and gps installation. I certainly hope there is improvement. You should have v 2.2.0.25 (beta) loaded. 1. Always apply power to PowerFlarm first or within a few seconds of powering up ClearNav. If you wait as long as a minute after starting ClearNav, CN may never see the PowerFlarm serial communication. 2. Verify communication on serial port in CN (menu/settings/tools iirc). Verify that flarm data display is "on" (menu/settings/personal iirc). 3. You need to zoom in such that the distance scale on the center box is about 1 mile. Any closer in / further out and you may not see your targets. The targets show as sailplane silhouettes drawn a bit lighter than the one that represents yourself, with orientation that shows direction of flight and a number that shows relative altitude. If targets are showing on a flarm external display, they should also show on CN. I've seen this working on my display, but have not flown in a "Flarm Rich Environment" since adding ClearNav. I'll be at R4S in a couple of days and will have much more experience, very shortly. 4. Alerts will show on CN on the top 1/2 the display accompanied by audio. It'll get your attention. I don't think CN displays mode c/s contacts at present (I see these on my Butterfly display, but not on CN) and I simply don't know about adsb. This is obviously all work in progress. -Evan Ludeman / T8

Excellent help Evan. Thanks so much for the detailed suggestions.

[Ramy]

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 8:13:54 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
>
>
> please let me give you some short details.
>
>
>
> Support:
>
> PowerFLARM Displays are sold and supported in the US. Butterfly as a brand has nothing to do with PowerFLARM Displays and its support. The display design of course comes from us (Butterfly). The FLARM USA team answers all your questions and has good knowledge on the product.
>
>
>
> Sounder Volume:
>
> Yes, the sounder volume is limited. This is a design decision because of the very limited current that FLARM (mostly the classic one) delivers to external displays and because of size. Most pilots like it, in Europe we have sold quite some displays even to powered aircraft pilots with good results (way louder than in gliders).
>
>
>
> Light-leakage:
>
> This happens due to production variances in the display components we use.. It neither affects performance nor power consumption and is absolutely normal.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your feedback, it helps us improve our products.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Marc
>
> Butterfly Avionics, Germany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am Dienstag, 11. September 2012 22:19:30 UTC+2 schrieb Andy:
>
> > I received a Butterfly external display with my US PowerFLARM core (brick). I also ordered a PowerFLARM Portable so have been able to compare the two.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The alerter volume of my Butterfly external display is much lower than the alerter volume on my portable, even when the Butterfly is a maximum and the portable is at reduced level.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > My Butterfly external display also has light leaks along the entire top and bottom edges. These show up as light bars that are significantly brigher than the display itself. The portable display has no visible light leaks.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I contacted Butterfly and asked for comment as I did not wish to approach my dealer until I know whether these characteristics were typical of all production displays.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Butterfly declined to answer my questions and forwarded my enquiry to Lee Kuhlke of FLARM USA. It seems that Butterfly is taking no responsibility for displays that were exported to USA. Lee has so far declined to provide any answer.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So, if you have a Butterfly external display, will you please let me it it has light leaks, and also if the alerter volume is similar to, or significantly lower than, the portable.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Photos of the light leaks available by email.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > thanks,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Andy.

Mark, thanks for your reply.
Since you mention that our feedback helps, and there is no other forum we are aware of to provide it, here are some more feedback/questions:
1 - Are there any differences in display and volume between the rectangular display and the in panel display?
2 - Is it possible in next release to remove volume limit for Powerflarm bricks?
3 - Can the manual be updated to explain the various elements in the display for all possible alerts? I am still not clear how ADS-B traffic is displayed.
4 - There seem to be a bug which result in the latest call sign received continuously showing on subsequent alerts including Mode C alerts, long after the flarm target is gone.
6 - The polarization is such that the display can only be read in vertical mode when using polarized glasses. Any plans to provide a horizontal polarized version?
7 - Instead of the long chirp for nearby PCAS alert (added in latest butterfly version I believe), is it possible to change it to a series of short chirps, similar to the MRX? Even with the low volume, I find the continuous long chirp while thermaling with another transponder equipped glider a bit distracting.
8 - Does butterfly implement some kind of filtering which prevents targets from disappearing momentarily due to loss of signal? This seem the case when comparing to the flarm radar in XCSoar for example.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

Which of the Butterfly displays are people talking about here when it comes to light leaks and low volume? Do the round and rectangular displays differ in this regard?

Also, does anyone have any experience with reading PowerFLARM data on the following:

LX Nav V7
LX Nav 8080 and 8000
LX 7007 colour
Colibri II

Due to limited panel space I may well have to get by with a brick feeding one of the above rather than use a dedicated display when I finally get around to installing PowerFLARM (I'm certain to have to go this route if I install a transponder as well)

[Marc - Butterfly Avionics]

> 1 - Are there any differences in display and volume between the rectangular display and the in panel display?
Yes, the sounder in the 57mm version is louder. This is mainly possible due to more space.

> 2 - Is it possible in next release to remove volume limit for Powerflarm bricks?
No, this is a hardware thing.

> 3 - Can the manual be updated to explain the various elements in the display for all possible alerts? I am still not clear how ADS-B traffic is displayed.
Yes, we further improve the manual. Basically all traffic (with available 3D position) is displayed in one way (which is small arrows if a target flies straight or a blue circle if a target circles and climbs). The latest version manual already points that out.

> 4 - There seem to be a bug which result in the latest call sign received continuously showing on subsequent alerts including Mode C alerts, long after the flarm target is gone
This is not a bug. The display always keeps the last selected aircraft selected, even if the target comes out of range.
The reason: E.g. you select a teampartner and he gets out of range. Every time he gets back into range you don't want to have to re-select him.

> 6 - The polarization is such that the display can only be read in vertical mode when using polarized glasses. Any plans to provide a horizontal polarized version?
Unfortunately this it is not possible for us to change display polarization..
Most polarized glasses filter horizontal light, in this case you will have to use the display vertically to read it. Some glasses also have different polarization angles, therefore also some require "landscape" use of the display.

> 7 - Instead of the long chirp for nearby PCAS alert (added in latest butterfly version I believe), is it possible to change it to a series of short chirps, similar to the MRX? Even with the low volume, I find the continuous long chirp while thermaling with another transponder equipped glider a bit distracting.
Sure this is possible, I'll add this to our wishlist for the next release.

> 8 - Does butterfly implement some kind of filtering which prevents targets from disappearing momentarily due to loss of signal? This seem the case when comparing to the flarm radar in XCSoar for example.
Yes, we keep a target active for some seconds ( eight seconds) after losing reception (ADS-B and FLARM only).

Hope this helps, best regards
Marc

[Ramy]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:49:06 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
> > 1 - Are there any differences in display and volume between the rectangular display and the in panel display?
>
> Yes, the sounder in the 57mm version is louder. This is mainly possible due to more space.
>
>
>
> > 2 - Is it possible in next release to remove volume limit for Powerflarm bricks?
>
> No, this is a hardware thing.
>
>
>
> > 3 - Can the manual be updated to explain the various elements in the display for all possible alerts? I am still not clear how ADS-B traffic is displayed.
>
> Yes, we further improve the manual. Basically all traffic (with available 3D position) is displayed in one way (which is small arrows if a target flies straight or a blue circle if a target circles and climbs). The latest version manual already points that out.
>
>
>
> > 4 - There seem to be a bug which result in the latest call sign received continuously showing on subsequent alerts including Mode C alerts, long after the flarm target is gone
>
> This is not a bug. The display always keeps the last selected aircraft selected, even if the target comes out of range.
>
> The reason: E.g. you select a teampartner and he gets out of range. Every time he gets back into range you don't want to have to re-select him.
>
>
>
> > 6 - The polarization is such that the display can only be read in vertical mode when using polarized glasses. Any plans to provide a horizontal polarized version?
>
> Unfortunately this it is not possible for us to change display polarization.
>
> Most polarized glasses filter horizontal light, in this case you will have to use the display vertically to read it. Some glasses also have different polarization angles, therefore also some require "landscape" use of the display.
>
>
>
> > 7 - Instead of the long chirp for nearby PCAS alert (added in latest butterfly version I believe), is it possible to change it to a series of short chirps, similar to the MRX? Even with the low volume, I find the continuous long chirp while thermaling with another transponder equipped glider a bit distracting.
>
> Sure this is possible, I'll add this to our wishlist for the next release..
>
>
>
> > 8 - Does butterfly implement some kind of filtering which prevents targets from disappearing momentarily due to loss of signal? This seem the case when comparing to the flarm radar in XCSoar for example.
>
> Yes, we keep a target active for some seconds ( eight seconds) after losing reception (ADS-B and FLARM only).
>
>
>
> Hope this helps, best regards
>
> Marc

Thanks Marc, this was very helpful. Regarding 4, does that mean that in selection mode, once you selected a target, no other target will be selected automatically even if the one you selected already left or landed? In other words, you always need to actively select a new target in selection mode? My assumption was that the nearest target is selected by default when no other target is selected, or the selected target is no longer in range. I can see the benefit when team flying, but not when randomly selecting someone.

Ramy

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 4:49:06 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:

> > Sure this is possible, I'll add this to our wishlist for the next release.

Marc, we appreciate your responses. Looking forward to the maturation of the software.

If I may, here are a couple more items for your wishlist:

1. Add ability to change the time display from UTC to UTC+/-n, where n allows the pilot to adjust for the local time. A really nice touch would be the ability to specify 12 or 24 hour display, and to make the clock font about 3 times bigger (yeah, the cute butterfly would have to be smaller...

2. The font for the PCAS altitude needs to be bigger. And it would be nice if the closest PCAS target range would be shown in digits, centered on the right side/bottom of the display. If PCAS targets/info were always shown in color - blue above, red +/- 500', green below, it would be easy to associate the range with the PCAS target, when there was also FLARM or ADS-B target info displayed (in black).

3. The PCAS range ring needs to be 2x thicker, and in color.

4. The option to have one short beep anytime a new threat is displayed, regardless of type.

In the US, PCAS threats are a significant concern, ergo the emphasis on their display characteristics.

Thanks,

Kirk
66

[Brian[_1_]]

One more wish list for the PCAS display but may require an upgrade from the Powerflarm as I don't know if it sends the Transponder code.
Would be nice on the PCAS Target it showed distance (as already requested) but would also be nice if it showed the the Transponder code. would be nice to know if the transponder is transmitting 1200, 1202, or an ATC assigned code.

Brian

[Marc - Butterfly Avionics]

>does that mean that in selection mode, once you selected a target, no other target will be selected automatically even if the one you selected already left or landed?
Yes. This is prett crucial for team-flying. In dangerous situations the warn screen automatically appears so this does not produce safety issues. Most importantly it helps reducing workload as the pilot does not have to select that much to keep his teampartner in focus. In europe only very few pilots seriously fly competitions without team partners.

Thanks for all the other wishes, we will add quite some functionality in the future and make sure to integrate your wishes as good as possible.

Cheers
Marc

[Jim[_32_]]

On Friday, September 14, 2012 2:41:38 AM UTC-4, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
> >does that mean that in selection mode, once you selected a target, no other target will be selected automatically even if the one you selected already left or landed?
>
> Yes. This is prett crucial for team-flying. In dangerous situations the warn screen automatically appears so this does not produce safety issues. Most importantly it helps reducing workload as the pilot does not have to select that much to keep his teampartner in focus. In europe only very few pilots seriously fly competitions without team partners.
>
>
>
> Thanks for all the other wishes, we will add quite some functionality in the future and make sure to integrate your wishes as good as possible.
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc

All the suggestions here so far are very important to me as well (especially making fonts bigger and making audio/visual PCAS alerts more obvious). If we do get more attention-getting audio as requested though we may want to also add the option for a "mute" function as well (perhaps by a simple press of the single knob). With all the transponder traffic near me the PF may never be quiet!

-Jim

[Ramy]

On Thursday, September 13, 2012 6:46:51 PM UTC-7, Brian wrote:
> One more wish list for the PCAS display but may require an upgrade from the Powerflarm as I don't know if it sends the Transponder code.
>
> Would be nice on the PCAS Target it showed distance (as already requested) but would also be nice if it showed the the Transponder code. would be nice to know if the transponder is transmitting 1200, 1202, or an ATC assigned code.
>
>
>
> Brian

One more suggestion if I may:
It appears that the butterfly displays instantaneous rate of climb (as it fluctuates considerably). It will be much more useful if it would display average rate of climb. When glimpsing momentarily at the display to decide if/which thermal to join, it is hard to determine based on momentarily rate of climb.

Thanks,

Ramy

[Marc - Butterfly Avionics]

RAMY: We already do significant filtering of the displayed climb rate-values. This filter needs to get some data to produce exact results, this is why at the beginning it fluctuates but ofter some seconds it gives you a very accurate value.

[Ramy]

Great, thanks Marc. This makes sense as the targets I observed were new. So better wait some time before deciding which aircraft climbs better.

Ramy

[bumper[_4_]]

I've flown with my brick and butterfly rectangular display 3 times now. Sort of grudgingly getting used to seeing the red butterfly when there's nothing going on, but as configured it seems semi-useless. However:

If it were programed to flash to a blank screen and back a couple of times quickly as the PF detects traffic, it could help compensate for the feeble alert volume as the quick flash should attract attention in one's peripheral vision.

Thoughts?

bumper

[Ramy]

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 11:24:38 AM UTC-7, bumper wrote:
> I've flown with my brick and butterfly rectangular display 3 times now. Sort of grudgingly getting used to seeing the red butterfly when there's nothing going on, but as configured it seems semi-useless. However:
>
>
>
> If it were programed to flash to a blank screen and back a couple of times quickly as the PF detects traffic, it could help compensate for the feeble alert volume as the quick flash should attract attention in one's peripheral vision.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> bumper

This may work if the display is in your peripheral vision when it blinks, but not if you were scanning elsewhere or thermaling. Problem is that there is currently no audio alert when the screen switches from no traffic to traffic. There is only alert when there is collision risk. It will be much better if it will be programmed to provide an audio alert, even if faint, whenever the display switches to the radar display. I was surprised the first time I found out this wasn't the case.

Ramy

[bumper[_4_]]

Ramy,

That seems a logical improvement, and would probably be a fairly easy software fix.

On the portable PF, I've added a bright LED using the audio out, and that works very well in my Husky - - no need to interface with headset audio and the light is all but impossible to ignore. Shame they didn't give us an audio out on the brick, as that would have solved the problem for us half-deaf old timers nicely (without having to get rid of us prematurely).

bumper
Minden

[Ramy]

I believe the reason why the brick does not have an audio jack is that it only produces NMEA sentences which are processed by the display which produces the audio alerts.

Ramy

[bumper[_4_]]

On Sunday, October 14, 2012 11:54:47 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> I believe the reason why the brick does not have an audio jack is that it only produces NMEA sentences which are processed by the display which produces the audio alerts.
> >
>
>
> Ramy

Understood.

But they "could" add the additional circuitry and audio jack to the brick, as they "could" have built in a bright alert LED on the portable (to make it more viable in tow planes etc, without having to wire it into the headset audio).

Neither change is likely as I doubt there's enough demand and they are working on other improvements. I also suggested to them that they provide a lower intensity back light on the portable for night flying (power plane). Lowest it goes now is 10%, which sounds just fine until you try flying with it at night! Lowest setting is still so bright it interfers with night vision.. If they don't fix that in a software revision I'll use some dark static cling plastic over the screen I guess.

bumper