Career Change - Full-time CFI: Average Flight Hours per year?

[Peter Gibbons]

Background: I'm currently 30 years old with my IFR and about 190 hrs
TT. Currently working as a systems administrator/programmer, but
weighing my options are if I were to try to make a career out of
aviation. Yeah - crazy, right? Try sitting in front of a monitor for
8 hours a day in a cubicle in a building with no windows! It makes
mowing lawns sound like a good career move...

Anyway, spending a year or two as a CFI seems like the common thing
most folks do in order to build time. From poking around in the
newsgroups, it seems as though if a new CFI were pulling in around
$20k for full-time instructing, he would be considered a rich man! I
could have survived on $20k about 5 years ago, but with a wife and a
baby on the way, that's just not going to cut it.

If I could build up enough hours to get hired on somewhere making
$25k-$30k, that wouldn't be as unrealistic financially, and I could
pad it a bit with some contract work here-and-there.

So rather than chuck my current job right away, I figured I'd do a
little comparison and see how realistic I was being. How many hours
could I build up per year (and how much that would cost) if I stayed
at my current job and flew on the weekends versus how many hours I
would get (and how much money I would lose) if I instructed full-time.

So, all of that to tell you the origin of what I am asking:
Generally, how many hours can a full-time CFI expect to fly in a year?

[Jim]

Not to divert your question, but it may pay to post it over at
http://www.ilsapproach.com where you'll get some real world answers to some
guys that are starving to death trying to do what you suggest. After you
build the hours then what? What are your goals? Students won't want to
hear that your goal is to build hours. Do you want to shoot for the
airlines? After you get your multi-rating and some multi and (hopefully
some turbine time) you may be looking at the regionals offering you as
little as $16500 per year to play First Officer on prop planes. After a few
years in props you may get into CRJs, where in my area of the country they
are starting out as FO making about $23,000. Don't get me wrong, the
regionals ARE hiring right now, but the pay sucks.

Lots of CFI's aren't even making $20k attempting to instruct full time.
Keep your job, ask for reduced hours so you can study and work on your
flying. It sounds like you have a great background to freelance or consult
while working on your rateings. Don't become a CFI just to build hours.
Work because you have to, fly or teach because you want to. I know several
guys that became CFI's just to build time so they could get on with the
regionals. They all worked their butts off instructing and ended up burned
out from it. They are bitter for working so hard and not getting the dream
job offers that they thought they deserved. Now they don't instruct nor are
they flying for the airlines.

Making money being a CFI comes down to providing great instruction and great
service. If you're lucky you'll discover an area of instruction that your
local customers are lacking and you can specialize in that area. Remember,
most flying occurs on the weekends, it sounds like you're already available
on the weekends.
--
Jim Burns III
Full time farmer, part time CFI, wife, 2 kids, and a dog that would starve
if I tried to CFI full time

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Jim]

http://www.aviationinterviews.com/compare_pay_rates.php

may not be accurate, but someone claims to have researched current regional
pay rates

Mesa FO year #1
$18.15 per hour
70 hours per month guarantee
flying Beech 1900s
$15,246 per year

ouch
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Larry Fransson]

On 2004-01-12 14:49:40 -0800, "Jim" > said:

> may not be accurate, but someone claims to have researched current
regional
> pay rates
>
> Mesa FO year #1
> $18.15 per hour
> 70 hours per month guarantee
> flying Beech 1900s
> $15,246 per year
>
> ouch

That sounds about right. But even those figures don't give you the total
"cost", if you will. Consider what the job and your quality of life is
worth to you. Also consider that commuter pilots aren't moving on as
quickly as they used to. Used to was you could spend no more than about
two or maybe three years doing commuter flying. At least half of that
time, probably more, would be PIC. In the current airline environment,
you're easily looking at five years or more.

I just spent five days at annual recurrent training with a guy who spent
six months working for Mesa. He told me one horror story and said he had a
lot more just like it after only six months of working there. I used to
work with another guy who left Mesa to go back to flight instruction - it
was that bad. Mesa may have improved some in the last few years, but in
the Risley (former CEO, IIRC) days, it sounds like Mesa was an absolute
nightmare. There are other jobs out there, though, that will be just the
same.

I sometimes think I should have gone the commuter route instead of part
135. I would probably have the airline job I want now. But at the same
time, I've always made pretty decent money and although I have some
stories, none match the horror stories I've heard from some of my
compatriots who did their time with low-budget commuters.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Larry Fransson]

On 2004-01-12 14:05:26 -0800, (Peter Gibbons)
said:

> Generally, how many hours can a full-time CFI expect to fly in a year?

When I was instructing full-time, I was logging around 600 hours a year.
Before that, when I was doing mostly evenings and weekends, it was more
like 150.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[[email protected]]

Peter Gibbons > wrote:

> So, all of that to tell you the origin of what I am asking:
> Generally, how many hours can a full-time CFI expect to fly in a year?

I flew 546 hours last year as a full time flight instructor. It was
my best year ever!... and my first year as a full time flight instructor,
after I retired (at age 50) from Hewlett-Packard. My business is
picking up, and I expect to fly about 750 hours in 2004.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://www.frii.net/~jer
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 197 Young Eagles!

[C J Campbell]

I personally am logging about 400 hours per year, even though Seattle
weather has me grounded most of the time during the winter months.

[\T\ Tung]

If you were a few years younger, you might have considered the
military. However, maximum age for USAF pilot training is 30 years
old at time of entry, and the application process would take about a
year, and they don't give out waivers for cases like yours.

That's also assuming you have a 4-year degree (officers need college
degrees). In fact, to fly for most majors, having a degree is a major
factor (not part of minimum quals, but highly desirable--as in >95% of
new hires at the majors have college degrees),

"T" Tung
USAF, UAL, Boeing

On 12 Jan 2004 14:05:26 -0800, (Peter
Gibbons) wrote:

>Background: I'm currently 30 years old with my IFR and about 190 hrs
>TT. Currently working as a systems administrator/programmer, but
>weighing my options are if I were to try to make a career out of
>aviation. Yeah - crazy, right? Try sitting in front of a monitor for
>8 hours a day in a cubicle in a building with no windows! It makes
>mowing lawns sound like a good career move...
>
>Anyway, spending a year or two as a CFI seems like the common thing
>most folks do in order to build time. From poking around in the
>newsgroups, it seems as though if a new CFI were pulling in around
>$20k for full-time instructing, he would be considered a rich man! I
>could have survived on $20k about 5 years ago, but with a wife and a
>baby on the way, that's just not going to cut it.
>
>If I could build up enough hours to get hired on somewhere making
>$25k-$30k, that wouldn't be as unrealistic financially, and I could
>pad it a bit with some contract work here-and-there.
>
>So rather than chuck my current job right away, I figured I'd do a
>little comparison and see how realistic I was being. How many hours
>could I build up per year (and how much that would cost) if I stayed
>at my current job and flew on the weekends versus how many hours I
>would get (and how much money I would lose) if I instructed full-time.
>
>So, all of that to tell you the origin of what I am asking:
>Generally, how many hours can a full-time CFI expect to fly in a year?

[Robert M. Gary]

As CFIs we tend to fall into one of three categories.

1) FBO CFIs. You will probably easily fly 40 hours a week and make
about $12 and hour.
2) Solo CFI. You will probably make around $40-$50/hr and fly about 10
hours a week.
3) Super CFI. Once you've been a CFI for 30 years or so can usually
get the $40-$50 hr and still work 40 hours a week.



(Peter Gibbons) wrote in message >...
> Background: I'm currently 30 years old with my IFR and about 190 hrs
> TT. Currently working as a systems administrator/programmer, but
> weighing my options are if I were to try to make a career out of
> aviation. Yeah - crazy, right? Try sitting in front of a monitor for
> 8 hours a day in a cubicle in a building with no windows! It makes
> mowing lawns sound like a good career move...
>
> Anyway, spending a year or two as a CFI seems like the common thing
> most folks do in order to build time. From poking around in the
> newsgroups, it seems as though if a new CFI were pulling in around
> $20k for full-time instructing, he would be considered a rich man! I
> could have survived on $20k about 5 years ago, but with a wife and a
> baby on the way, that's just not going to cut it.
>
> If I could build up enough hours to get hired on somewhere making
> $25k-$30k, that wouldn't be as unrealistic financially, and I could
> pad it a bit with some contract work here-and-there.
>
> So rather than chuck my current job right away, I figured I'd do a
> little comparison and see how realistic I was being. How many hours
> could I build up per year (and how much that would cost) if I stayed
> at my current job and flew on the weekends versus how many hours I
> would get (and how much money I would lose) if I instructed full-time.
>
> So, all of that to tell you the origin of what I am asking:
> Generally, how many hours can a full-time CFI expect to fly in a year?

[Robert M. Gary]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> I personally am logging about 400 hours per year, even though Seattle
> weather has me grounded most of the time during the winter months.


I'll bet a lot of that is CFII and MEI work, not straight CFI work.

[C J Campbell]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
| "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>...
| > I personally am logging about 400 hours per year, even though Seattle
| > weather has me grounded most of the time during the winter months.
|
|
| I'll bet a lot of that is CFII and MEI work, not straight CFI work.

I have not done any MEI work at all, unfortunately. We have a multi-engine
plane, but it is available only for training, not rental, and it is priced
out of the market. I will not spend the five hours in it to become qualified
unless I absolutely have to.

About half my instruction is CFII work.

[Larry Fransson]

On 2004-01-14 07:50:57 -0800, (Robert M. Gary) said:

> As CFIs we tend to fall into one of three categories.
>
> 1) FBO CFIs. You will probably easily fly 40 hours a week and make
> about $12 and hour.

Where are you finding CFIs who can actually FLY 40 hours a week? Even the
most popular CFIs I worked with, who had been around for several years,
kept their schedules full, and rated $5 an hour more than the rest of us,
weren't flying more than 60 hours a month.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Larry Fransson]

On 2004-01-14 07:51:48 -0800, (Robert M. Gary) said:

> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
>...
> > I personally am logging about 400 hours per year, even though Seattle
> > weather has me grounded most of the time during the winter months.
>
>
> I'll bet a lot of that is CFII and MEI work, not straight CFI work.

Unless you're working for someone who specialized in multiengine training,
there really isn't a lot of multiengine instruction going on. I don't
think I ever did much more than 25 or 30 hours of multiengine instruction
in two years of full-time instructing.

In my experience, the winter weather tends to be a little crummier in Mr.
Campbell's neck of the woods. Up in the big city, we hardly ever had to
cancel due to weather.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Michael]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
> As CFIs we tend to fall into one of three categories.
>
> 1) FBO CFIs. You will probably easily fly 40 hours a week and make
> about $12 and hour.

I know of no CFI who flies 40 hours a week. Do you realize that this
would be 2000+ hours a year? With the 8 hour daily limitation, it's
difficult even on a good week.

I once knew a guy who flew almost 1200 hours one year. He NEVER took
a day off. He was there every day, and flew as much as he could. He
was also burned out and hated what he was doing. On top of that, 98+%
of those hours were in light singles, and past about 1000 hours, light
single right seat time doesn't really impress the people doing the
hiring.

> 2) Solo CFI. You will probably make around $40-$50/hr and fly about 10
> hours a week.

I don't know where you are, but nobody around here (Houston) charges
rates like that. $30/hr is much closer to the norm.

As for flying 10 hours a week, I did that one year. Didn't really
care for it. That was the year I flew over 300 hours, and I will
probably never do it again. Instead of being fun, it started being a
chore, almost like work, and if I'm going to work, well, I make a lot
more at my day job.

Also, a solo CFI needs either his own plane to rent out or business
from owners. This guy has less than 200 hours. No owner I ever met
wants to fly with a low time CFI building hours.

> 3) Super CFI. Once you've been a CFI for 30 years or so can usually
> get the $40-$50 hr and still work 40 hours a week.

See above about 40 hours a week.

Michael

[john price]

For what it's worth, I did 575 hours of instructing last year...
Full time working for a small school...

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price



"Peter Gibbons" > wrote in message
om...
> Background: I'm currently 30 years old with my IFR and about 190 hrs
> TT. Currently working as a systems administrator/programmer, but
> weighing my options are if I were to try to make a career out of
> aviation. Yeah - crazy, right? Try sitting in front of a monitor for
> 8 hours a day in a cubicle in a building with no windows! It makes
> mowing lawns sound like a good career move...
>
> Anyway, spending a year or two as a CFI seems like the common thing
> most folks do in order to build time. From poking around in the
> newsgroups, it seems as though if a new CFI were pulling in around
> $20k for full-time instructing, he would be considered a rich man! I
> could have survived on $20k about 5 years ago, but with a wife and a
> baby on the way, that's just not going to cut it.
>
> If I could build up enough hours to get hired on somewhere making
> $25k-$30k, that wouldn't be as unrealistic financially, and I could
> pad it a bit with some contract work here-and-there.
>
> So rather than chuck my current job right away, I figured I'd do a
> little comparison and see how realistic I was being. How many hours
> could I build up per year (and how much that would cost) if I stayed
> at my current job and flew on the weekends versus how many hours I
> would get (and how much money I would lose) if I instructed full-time.
>
> So, all of that to tell you the origin of what I am asking:
> Generally, how many hours can a full-time CFI expect to fly in a year?

[Peter Gibbons]

"\"T\" Tung" > wrote in message >...
> If you were a few years younger, you might have considered the
> military. However, maximum age for USAF pilot training is 30 years
> old at time of entry, and the application process would take about a
> year, and they don't give out waivers for cases like yours.
>
> That's also assuming you have a 4-year degree (officers need college
> degrees). In fact, to fly for most majors, having a degree is a major
> factor (not part of minimum quals, but highly desirable--as in >95% of
> new hires at the majors have college degrees),
>
> "T" Tung
> USAF, UAL, Boeing
>

Funny you mention that, "T". I did try the Air Force... been trying
for the past 4 years in fact. Good scores, work experience, strong
letters, passed FC1 - just never got selected.

My IFR instructor, about a year younger than me, with similar scores,
got picked up in 2002 and is now training in T-38's, but he was one of
the lucky ones.

The number of guys they're picking up these days is pathetic. Last
year's selection average was roughly 15-20% (averaging probably 100
applicants per board) every six weeks. But this fiscal year, they've
cut back to I believe only 2 or 3 Rated boards per year.

Moral of the story - if you want a shot at a pilot position in the Air
Force, go to the Academy or ROTC. OTS gets the leftovers, and these
days, there isn't much left to go around...

[C J Campbell]

My goodness -- forty hours a week? Even with ground school, etc., a CFI is
not going to give forty hours/week instruction under any circumstances.

You would have to be at the office 24/7 to get anywhere near that amount of
time.

Personally, I find the amount I instruct to be just about right. Enough to
keep me busy, but plenty of time to devote to business and other activities.
Instruction is only a retirement job for me, after all.

[G.R. Patterson III]

john price wrote:
>
> For what it's worth, I did 575 hours of instructing last year...
> Full time working for a small school...

I thought you only taught on weekends. When did that change?

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Robert M. Gary]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> (Robert M. Gary) wrote
> > As CFIs we tend to fall into one of three categories.
> >
> > 1) FBO CFIs. You will probably easily fly 40 hours a week and make
> > about $12 and hour.
>
> I know of no CFI who flies 40 hours a week. Do you realize that this
> would be 2000+ hours a year? With the 8 hour daily limitation, it's
> difficult even on a good week.

Your right. I should have said "bills around 40 hours a week". We have
a couple serious flight schools in the area and they do keep their
CFIs busy. Of course about 10 hours a week of that is ground so
your're flying closer to 30 hours. Most of the CFIs work 6 day weeks
too and unusual hours. The downside is that the FBO takes most of the
money.


> I once knew a guy who flew almost 1200 hours one year. He NEVER took
> a day off. He was there every day, and flew as much as he could. He
> was also burned out and hated what he was doing. On top of that, 98+%
> of those hours were in light singles, and past about 1000 hours, light
> single right seat time doesn't really impress the people doing the
> hiring.

I know a guy who has a total of 35,000 hours. Most all of it is
CFI'ing in singles.

> > 2) Solo CFI. You will probably make around $40-$50/hr and fly about 10
> > hours a week.
> > Also, a solo CFI needs either his own plane to rent out or business
> from owners. This guy has less than 200 hours. No owner I ever met
> wants to fly with a low time CFI building hours.

I am a solo CFI. I'm on the books with 3 FBOs. When I have my own
students I pick which ever FBOs works best. Since I find the students
myself, I don't have to give any of my fee to the FBOs. BTW: The first
student I ever had after getting my CFI was a private applicant in her
own plane. If you have the right personality, word gets around that
you are enjoyable and easy going in the cockpit.


> > 3) Super CFI. Once you've been a CFI for 30 years or so can usually
> > get the $40-$50 hr and still work 40 hours a week.
>
> See above about 40 hours a week.

I know of 3 CFIs off the top of my head and would be working 60 hours
a week if they weren't turning down students. All have well over
10,000 hours of instruction given though. One raised his rates as high
as the airplanes and he was still turning down pilots. There are
people out there with money and will only deal with the best.

[\T\ Tung]

Another option which I'm not sure you may have been aware of is to
apply directly to the AF Reserve or Air Guard. It is more competitive
in some ways, but sometimes even thatcan be deceiving. In my Reserve
unit (flying KC-135s), we don't really get that many applicants, and
the selection rate is therefore a bit higher...(maybe 30%).
The age limit is still the same though.

"T" Tung

[Peter Gibbons]

"\"T\" Tung" > wrote in message >...
> Another option which I'm not sure you may have been aware of is to
> apply directly to the AF Reserve or Air Guard. It is more competitive
> in some ways, but sometimes even thatcan be deceiving. In my Reserve
> unit (flying KC-135s), we don't really get that many applicants, and
> the selection rate is therefore a bit higher...(maybe 30%).
> The age limit is still the same though.
>
> "T" Tung

I briefly checked into the Guard, but since they are usually
recruiting for a UPT slot as far as 2-3 years in the future, usually
they won't take anyone past 27-28 years old. And even then,
preference is usually given to folks already members of the unit.

[Paul Sengupta]

When I learned, our instructors did about 100 hours a month.

It was 7 days a week, 8am to sunset Monday to Saturday, late
start at 10am on Sunday. Usually flying with 2 students, 2 lessons
each a day, 1.5-3 hours each depending on whether it was exercises
or cross-country...though it wouldn't turn out to be 4x3, more like
4x1.5, or 3x1.5 and 1x3 or something like that. Days off weren't
a problem usually if an instructor wanted it at any time as long as
his students were ok with it.

Ground school was whenever they had some free time, between
lessons or evenings, though there wasn't much ground school, mostly
just explaining and debriefing lessons. Other stuff was self-taught
mostly (read the books, watch some videos).

Paul

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> My goodness -- forty hours a week? Even with ground school, etc., a CFI is
> not going to give forty hours/week instruction under any circumstances.
>
> You would have to be at the office 24/7 to get anywhere near that amount
of
> time.

[RobertsCFI]

I spent seven years as a part-time CFI and three years as a full-timer,
starting at $8 an hour and "topping out" at $25 an hour.

As a part-time CFI, I usually worked with no more than five or six students at
a time, most of whom were flying twice a week. I generally averaged 300 - 500
hours of flight time per year. During the winter months, I'd be lucky to fly 20
hours a month. Summer was all the flying you could stand, and then some. (This
was in addition to my full-time job as a computer programmer, so I spent all of
my time either at work or at the airport.)

In 1997 I quit my full-time job and began instructing full time, working at a
couple of schools in Florida. During my "best" year, I flew 1170 hours and
signed off 42 students for checkrides. My gross pay that year came to about
$16,700. It was pretty common for me to spend 90-100 hours a week at the
airport. A day off was a rare luxury.

Personally, I found the part-time work to be more enjoyable. My computer job
paid the bills, so there wasn't any pressure to fly in marginal weather or to
try to see how many students I could cram into my schedule. Most of my students
at that time also worked full-time, so our schedules were compatible - we
simply flew after work or on weekends.

From a financial standpoint, the best places to work for are flying clubs and
the smaller FBO's. These generally pay the best, and you will probably have
more control over your schedule. Avoid the big "academy-style" schools.

Another thing to keep in mind is that most CFI jobs do NOT provide any type of
benefits, such as medical insurance. This can be a major consideration if you
have a family.

E. Roberts, CFI