Best performing Vario? [Archive]

John Cochrane[_3_]

September 22nd 12, 09:47 PM

On Sep 22, 3:35*pm, wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
> > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. Which unit did it for you?
>
> ClearNav CNv hands down. Work in progress but better than the 302 right now. Low on flashy displays big on the useful bits.
>
> John Seaborn A8

I second the opinion. Fast, smooth, accurate. And the 302 I found to
be slightly better than the (very good) SN10. Legacy cambridge (s nav,
m nav, l nav) were nowhere near as good. Those are from the 1980s and
were great in their time, but that was a while ago.

No mechanical vario should be on this list no matter how good. You
need to look out the window not stare at a vario.

John Cochrane

Tim Taylor

September 22nd 12, 10:01 PM

Of the older varios I loved the Borgelt B50. Borgelt was a great vario for the time. Not sure what happened that they didn't make the transition over the last few years to the modern systems. B50 is still one of the best values for a low cost panel, about $500 to $600 and a PDA/PNA and it will work nearly as we'll as the new systems.

The ClearNav, V7 and Butterfly are all very impressive. The 302 is a good system (vario, altimeter, computer and logger in one) and could be even better with a software update.

Jim[_32_]

September 22nd 12, 10:07 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

My new ClearNav Vario is magic (even in its incomplete version). Still waiting for the software to be completed and integrated with the ClearNav display. ICG approval is also "still coming".

-Jim

Dave Springford

September 22nd 12, 11:10 PM

ILEC SB9 electric vario, (but they don't make them anymore)

Bohli vario - not sure if they are still made, but the last time I looked they were rather pricey.

LX Nav V5 or V7 vario

Wayne Paul

September 22nd 12, 11:36 PM

Tim,

I really liked my B-50; however, it didn't go to Logan with the HP-14. All
the HP-14 instruments went to Moses Lake and will be installed in a Jantar.

Wayne

"Tim Taylor" wrote in message
...

Of the older varios I loved the Borgelt B50. Borgelt was a great vario for
the time. Not sure what happened that they didn't make the transition over
the last few years to the modern systems. B50 is still one of the best
values for a low cost panel, about $500 to $600 and a PDA/PNA and it will
work nearly as we'll as the new systems.

The ClearNav, V7 and Butterfly are all very impressive. The 302 is a good
system (vario, altimeter, computer and logger in one) and could be even
better with a software update.

[email protected]

September 23rd 12, 12:58 AM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. Which unit did it for you?

I loved the LNav and think it hard to beat when tuned right.
I have the new ClearNav vario and it is even better.
UH

[email protected]

September 23rd 12, 12:59 AM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 7:58:22 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. Which unit did it for you?

I loved the LNav and think it hard to beat when tuned right. I have the new ClearNav vario and it is even better. UH

Walt Connelly

September 23rd 12, 01:30 AM

In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.

I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.

Which unit did it for you?

You mean there is a vario that can get me centered in and on the top of a thermal? I'll take two and if it can find the thermal for me in the first place I'll take three.

Walt

Steve Koerner

September 23rd 12, 02:10 AM

ClearNav vario works better than 302 and much better than the V7. It's an excellent product -- I hope they are working hard to finish it.

[email protected]

September 23rd 12, 02:39 AM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:10:55 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> ClearNav vario works better than 302 and much better than the V7. It's an excellent product -- I hope they are working hard to finish it.

My favorite until recently was the Westerboer VW900. Great for digging out
from low. My new favorite is the CNv. Eagerly awaiting the updates for it.

-- Matt

John Sullivan[_2_]

September 23rd 12, 03:28 AM

I love my Zander. How about time constants? The Zander goes
from .5 sec to 5 Seconds, I set mine to 2 seconds. The filter is for
the audio which i set to to 2, in the middle. I wish i could program
the audio to my own sounds though. Don Rickels in sink, Yes, Yes,
Yes in climb...

John Sullivan[_2_]

September 23rd 12, 03:31 AM

waremark

September 23rd 12, 09:37 AM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 4:58:15 PM UTC+1, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

So many of you say the Clearnav vario is fantastic. What is it about that vario that makes it better than any other? How do you recognise that it is better? Say, what is better about it than a V7? (I have an LX 7000, most high end gliders in the UK use the LX series, they are pretty good, and presumably the V7 will be the best yet). I fly a club glider with an LNav, and I love that too. Varios like the LX give you numerous settings, and I suspect that what makes a vario work well for me is the way it has been setup. Sadly I am not clever enough to know how to set it up for best results! When other people out-climb me (hopefully not too often) my first thought is never that it is the fault of the vario!

I only once took off with a non-functioning vario (the LNav, water in plumbing). I thought it was odd that nothing was working, and was about to land out when I realised that the problem was the vario not the conditions! Happily I then found a good enough thermal to climb without a vario, and was able to fly back to the airfield. I understand some people are clever enough to fly cross country without a vario. Not me.

The Butterfly sounds like genuine new tech - using accelerometers as well as pressure change. I can imagine that this must achieve a better result, but I cannot imagine how I would recognise that better result. How would I decide whether to spec my next glider with an LX 9000 or to save money and use a Butterfly plus Oudie?

Peter Purdie[_3_]

September 23rd 12, 04:23 PM

Another vote for the Clearnav vario. In answer to the question below, the
longer you soar, and the more different gliders (and instruments) you fly
with, the easier it is to decide whether the instrument is agreeing with
what you know from feel the glider is doing in the air. When you are
climbing with other people real differences show up. Horizontal gusts can
make a simple TE vario think the rate of climb has increased, when the
glider isn't in fact climbing at that time. The Clearnav is also new tech
withmultiple pressure sensors, 3-axis accelerometers, and good software to
show you what the glider is doing in reality. In my biased opinion, it is
far better than anything else I have flown with.

The user interface is straighforward, and the advanced extra features
(including IGC recorder) are well on the way.

As John Cochran has pointed out, mechanical varios (however good) are
antiques now - good audio for eyes out of cockpit are vital.

>
>So many of you say the Clearnav vario is fantastic. What is it >about that
vario that makes it better than any other? How do
> you recognise that it is better?
>

>
>The Butterfly sounds like genuine new tech - using >accelerometers as well
as pressure change. I can
>imagine that this must achieve a better result,
>but I cannot imagine how I would recognise that better
>result. How would I decide whether to spec my next glider
>with an LX 9000 or to save money and use a Butterfly plus
>Oudie?
>

Craig Funston[_2_]

September 23rd 12, 11:17 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

In particular, I'd be interested to hear comparisons of the V7 and the ClearNav from those that have flown both.

Craig

Morgan[_2_]

September 24th 12, 06:50 AM

Sage actually has an Audio option now, though I've only flown with the mechanical version which is very fast to respond. I believe you can even upgrade an older model to get audio.

The L-Nav has a pretty significant lag that takes some human compensation to optimize for. Especially in a big glider like a Duo.

I'm curious about the rave reviews of the Clearnav vario that also talk about "when it's finished" or other statements along those lines. Is it that it just lacks a feature set to compete with the V7 or Butterfly varios?

The Rico vario is up there for novelty. As a fisherman, the clicking sounds like a fish taking the bait softly.

Morgan

Peter Purdie[_3_]

September 24th 12, 12:57 PM

See the company website

www.clearnav.net

The Club version is shipping, the competition version with IGC recorder,
GPS & wind out, navigation etc. is well on in development and test, and
units are user upgradable via the USB input.

At 05:50 24 September 2012, Morgan wrote:
>I'm curious about the rave reviews of the Clearnav vario that also talk
>about "when it's finished" or other statements along those lines. Is it
>that it just lacks a feature set to compete with the V7 or Butterfly
>varios?
>
>Morgan
>

joesimmers[_2_]

September 25th 12, 02:36 AM

I have flown with the new clearnav vario all season and am extremely happy with it. I used a 302 for many years.

If your looking for bling bling and fancy neon colors this may not be for you, but I am confident that I am making less stops in weak thermals than before as the vario ceratainly helps judge what is worth stopping for.

Tim Mara

September 25th 12, 03:31 PM

Unfortunately, this question will not be fairly answered as to "which vario
is best" in this forum. What you are going to get is a lot of opinions based
only on what variometers the responders have actually used and possibly what
variometer they used that "they" liked better of the few systems they may
have actually had a chance to use. Few is anyone here will have had an
opportunity to realistically flown with or more over tested in any side by
side comparison all of the most common types, also most will have used
variometers in conjunction with other systems connected to or compared with
what was in place at the time they may have flown with that system.
Clearly variometer technology has changed over the years from the first
pellet variometers to modern pressure transducer and GPS coupled systems.
Many manufacturers today can produce good variometers with very common
electronic parts and devices, added features and connectability to extended
devices will normally be the determining factors in what systems the user
chooses along with a proven history of reliability and support.
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Craig R." > wrote in message
...
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used?
> Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the
> thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles"
> add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor.
> Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage
> mechanical.
>
> Which unit did it for you?

[email protected]

September 25th 12, 08:06 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

I recently purchased the LX NAV V7 vario coupled to the Naviter Oudie with See You Mobile.

This setup is like CHEATING it is so easy to center a thermal. The vario is accurate with multiple averagers, and with the Thermal Assist function, it tells you when and where to move your circling to, so you can nail the core of the thermal.

I've used a Cambridge 302, an LNAV, and several others. But this setup is in my opinion in a league of its own.

Here is a picture of the thermal assist:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou/ThermalAssistant.jpg

jfitch

September 26th 12, 12:55 AM

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:06:41 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
>
> > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> I recently purchased the LX NAV V7 vario coupled to the Naviter Oudie with See You Mobile.
>
>
>
> This setup is like CHEATING it is so easy to center a thermal. The vario is accurate with multiple averagers, and with the Thermal Assist function, it tells you when and where to move your circling to, so you can nail the core of the thermal.
>
>
>
> I've used a Cambridge 302, an LNAV, and several others. But this setup is in my opinion in a league of its own.
>
>
>
> Here is a picture of the thermal assist:
>
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou/ThermalAssistant.jpg

I may be wrong, but I think Winpilot had the thermal assistant first (at least, has had it for 10 years or so) and it still works better than the SYM version: clearer presentation, more information, comes and goes when you want it to.

6PK

September 26th 12, 03:09 AM

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 4:55:02 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 12:06:41 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote: > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > I recently purchased the LX NAV V7 vario coupled to the Naviter Oudie with See You Mobile. > > > > This setup is like CHEATING it is so easy to center a thermal. The vario is accurate with multiple averagers, and with the Thermal Assist function, it tells you when and where to move your circling to, so you can nail the core of the thermal. > > > > I've used a Cambridge 302, an LNAV, and several others. But this setup is in my opinion in a league of its own. > > > > Here is a picture of the thermal assist: > > http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou/ThermalAssistant.jpg I may be wrong, but I think Winpilot had the thermal assistant first (at least, has had it for 10 years or so) and it still works better than the SYM version: clearer presentation, more information, comes and goes when you want it to.

6PK

September 26th 12, 03:14 AM

[email protected]

September 26th 12, 04:15 AM

On Sunday, 23 September 2012 07:01:13 UTC+10, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Not sure what happened that they didn't make the transition over the last few years to the modern systems. B50 is still one of the best values for a low cost panel, about $500 to $600 and a PDA/PNA and it will work nearly as we'll as the new systems.

Nothing "happened" Tim. We replaced the B50 with the B500 in late 2005 and the B40 (over 1000 sold) with the B400. The B500 and now the B600 and B800 even incorporate GPS navigation, wind and a glide computer. Otherwise they perform the same vario functions but with some extras like the little green light and subtle audio change to tell you when the climb is better than the 20 second average.

The B500 has recently been replaced by the B600(linear vario scale) and B800 (log scale expanded in the +/- 2 knot range) but otherwise similar except for some new features like the visual and audio comparison of the running average climb rate to the whole of thermal so far average, to tell you when to think about leaving, a real Performance Index to tell you how each glide from the top of the last thermal to current position compares to the clean glider at the same weight(helps with "bugs" setting) and the B800 and B600 have
bi-directional comms with color moving map glide computers like XCSoar which means you can make changes on the glide program and have them go straight to the vario and also the other way round.
A Vertica V2 (basically like new Oudie with new bright screen but HALF the price)plus a B600 or B800 main unit makes a very low cost complete X country vario and moving map glide computer system when running XCsoar.

If you want just a vario(no speed to fly) as a standby(mechanical replacement) or for the club single or two seater have a look at our B300 Club vario, B400 vario with standby battery pack, the B700(like B400 but with log scale and both 20 sec and whole of climb average and comparator), the ultimate standby vario which you'll leave running all the time and soon the B900(B700 with linear scale). We've also bench tested the B200 audio add on for mechanical varios as I know some of you won't let go of your favorite mechanical vario until it is pried out of your cold, dead hands :-)

We're also working on some advanced concepts which will make all existing varios totally obsolete but they will be able to be added to our B600 and B800.

Tim Taylor

September 26th 12, 06:11 AM

I will third that! SeeYou Mobile has really missed out on making a better climb maximizer. WinPilot has the best by 10x. I fly the same with a 302 and the Sage mechanical. The 302 with WinPilot is one of the best in weak conditions for finding and centering scrappy lift or very weak lift.

I hope that the SYM guys will look seriously at improving the thermal maximizer and the controls of how it starts and allowing toggling in flight easily.

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

September 26th 12, 03:24 PM

On 9/25/2012 10:11 PM, Tim Taylor wrote:
> I will third that! SeeYou Mobile has really missed out on making a
> better climb maximizer. WinPilot has the best by 10x. I fly the same
> with a 302 and the Sage mechanical. The 302 with WinPilot is one of
> the best in weak conditions for finding and centering scrappy lift or
> very weak lift.
>
> I hope that the SYM guys will look seriously at improving the thermal
> maximizer and the controls of how it starts and allowing toggling in
> flight easily.

I assigned a PDA button to starting it manually for times it my settings
didn't have it start automatically; tapping the screen would dismiss it,
of course.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

jfitch

September 26th 12, 05:00 PM

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 10:11:57 PM UTC-7, Tim Taylor wrote:
> I will third that! SeeYou Mobile has really missed out on making a better climb maximizer. WinPilot has the best by 10x. I fly the same with a 302 and the Sage mechanical. The 302 with WinPilot is one of the best in weak conditions for finding and centering scrappy lift or very weak lift.
>
>
>
> I hope that the SYM guys will look seriously at improving the thermal maximizer and the controls of how it starts and allowing toggling in flight easily.

To elaborate a little: even the SYM developers know it is crap, and suggest not using it. I quote from their manual:

"We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)"

As Eric has said in another thread, on a motor glider the vario TE is messed up by the prop wash. I find this true on my 26E: there is reported a more or less constant 37 knot headwind, the vario oscillates rapidly and unevenly +/- 6 knots, and centering a thermal requires extreme concentration if you can do it at all. But it can be done, and pretty accurately and quickly, using the Winpilot thermal assistant, even with the crap data! Not a chance with SYM....

The data they collect is identical, but the presentation on SYM is lacking, also the algorithm for starting it and stopping it is bad. On Winpilot, it comes on at about 1/4 circle, and is providing valuable information by 1/2 or 3/4 circle. It dismisses itself within a few seconds of leaving the circle. During the circle you have a graph of climb/time and an indication of MC and average for the day. Very easy to see your trends at a glance. The 3D graph of climb rate is again easy to interpret at a glance, and allows you to judge the quality of the data and make adjustments accordingly. All these are absent on SYM....

Too bad Winpilot is no longer supported. I wish he would make it work on Oudie....:)

[email protected]

September 26th 12, 07:16 PM

On Wednesday, 26 September 2012 17:00:54 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:

>
> To elaborate a little: even the SYM developers know it is crap, and suggest not using it. I quote from their manual:
>
>
>
> "We will be happy if you continue to enjoy soaring and if you never find the need to use the Thermal Assistant at all :-)"

Not sure how you made that conclusion from the quoted statement from the SYM manual. The SeeYou developers are simply saying that the thermal assistant is there to use if you want it and I do sometimes use it and have no problem. I do not have it set to switch on automatically. I press a button to make it appear and I tap the screen to make it go away. Seems pretty easy to me and I am often surprised to find that it improves my centering of an awkward thermal.

John Galloway

Scott Alexander[_2_]

September 26th 12, 08:46 PM

I'm also surprised that your experience with SYM (See You Mobile for
those of you lacking the coded language) you find troubling to exit
the thermal assist function. All you do is tap the screen one time,
that's it!

Last weekend, I found myself at pattern altitude, ready to landout,
and then stumbled into a 0.3 knot thermal which I probably wouldn't
have been able to center if it weren't for having the thermal assist
function in SYM. That saved the day as it brought me up to final
glide, 26 miles from home. I was 10 seconds from dropping the gear
and committing to a land out. One wrong turn out of the thermal and I
was dropping the gear, so this function proved its effectiveness to
me.

Tony[_5_]

September 26th 12, 08:58 PM

I posted about this on the Naviter forums but never got a response from anyone but myself on the subject. For some reason on my Oudie I can not turn on the thermal assistant. I can change the setting from "Never" to any of the other criteria but when I click OK and navigate back to the setup page it is back to "Never". I just took this as a sign that I need to be able to center lift without the oudie's help but it would be nice to give it a try. Any ideas?

jfitch

September 26th 12, 10:39 PM

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:46:59 PM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
> I'm also surprised that your experience with SYM (See You Mobile for
>
> those of you lacking the coded language) you find troubling to exit
>
> the thermal assist function. All you do is tap the screen one time,
>
> that's it!

All you do to exit (or enter) the thermal assistant function in Winpilot is ...nothing at all. It does it automatically, at the right moment, without user intervention. I submit that this is an improvement (added to the other improvements already mentioned above).

I'm not saying the SYM thermal assistant is useless. Just that there are better implementations. SYM in general is very verbose (and a little disorganized) in its user interface, compared to other available products. You are endlessly tapping the screen for this or other functions. For example to add a turnpoint, it is a minimum of 9 screen taps on SYM vs. about 4 on Winpilot, and just one on iGlide. Every screen tap is another second with my eyes on the panel and not outside. SYM has a great feature set, but it certainly is not a good example of man-machine interface.

Tim Mara

September 26th 12, 10:42 PM

some settings may not function unless the unit is restarted after making the
changes to specific settings
make sure after changing any settings that when you shut down you check the
box to "save new profile"
tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Tony" > wrote in message
...
I posted about this on the Naviter forums but never got a response from
anyone but myself on the subject. For some reason on my Oudie I can not turn
on the thermal assistant. I can change the setting from "Never" to any of
the other criteria but when I click OK and navigate back to the setup page
it is back to "Never". I just took this as a sign that I need to be able to
center lift without the oudie's help but it would be nice to give it a try.
Any ideas?

6PK

September 27th 12, 12:01 AM

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 12:46:59 PM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
> I'm also surprised that your experience with SYM (See You Mobile for those of you lacking the coded language) you find troubling to exit the thermal assist function. All you do is tap the screen one time, that's it! Last weekend, I found myself at pattern altitude, ready to landout, and then stumbled into a 0.3 knot thermal which I probably wouldn't have been able to center if it weren't for having the thermal assist function in SYM. That saved the day as it brought me up to final glide, 26 miles from home. I was 10 seconds from dropping the gear and committing to a land out. One wrong turn out of the thermal and I was dropping the gear, so this function proved its effectiveness to me.

Scott. I don't think anyone labels SYM's thermal assist useless it's just WinPilot's is far more advanced. I have used both and now XCSoar and neither is as relyable as WinPilot's climb maximizer.
I
The matter of fact like someone else mentioned earlier SYM seems a bit over cluttered.
So fay I'm most impressed by XCSoar, I wish they just knock off WinPilot's climb maximizer and they will have a tru winner

Tobias Bieniek

September 28th 12, 10:22 AM

we are talking about http://www.winpilot.com/images4/PRO_1.gif right?

actually the xcsoar representation is quite similar, only that the climb values are not drawn in a 3D way, but using a polar diagram. The arrow that WinPilot shows is also available in XCSoar, just not as emphasized and it will get larger once the suggestion to recenter gets stronger. could you elaborate on what exactly you think is better in the WinPilot representation?

6PK

September 28th 12, 04:13 PM

On Friday, September 28, 2012 2:22:46 AM UTC-7, Tobias Bieniek wrote:
> we are talking about http://www.winpilot.com/images4/PRO_1.gif right? actually the xcsoar representation is quite similar, only that the climb values are not drawn in a 3D way, but using a polar diagram. The arrow that WinPilot shows is also available in XCSoar, just not as emphasized and it will get larger once the suggestion to recenter gets stronger. could you elaborate on what exactly you think is better in the WinPilot representation?

It is the arrow that makes it accurate and easy to use- more visual. It simply gets shorter as one gets closer to the core and when it just becomes a dot you are at the core.
I'm very impressed with XCSoar but I'm not aware of the arrow like WinPilot or even SYM ?? XCSoar's Thermal Assist works good but when I use it one has to look -head down-rather than just to "refer" to the arrow at a glance keeping heads out of the cockpit. My 5 C worth. 6PK

Tobias Bieniek

September 28th 12, 05:08 PM

you can see the current implementation of XCSoar at http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2301/552152_459984440688267_251197415_n.jpg

if you look close, you notice a blue line originating from the center of the thermal assistant. the other end of the line marks the point of the proposed thermal core and shows you the direction in which you would need to recenter. from what you've mentioned in the previous posting I understand that this indicator needs to be larger and possibly in an arrow-like form, correct?!

there is also an alternative implementation proposed that looks like this: http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassistant.png
feel free to comment on that one too. we are always open to suggestions and constructive criticism.

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

September 28th 12, 05:35 PM

On 9/28/2012 2:22 AM, Tobias Bieniek wrote:
> we are talking about http://www.winpilot.com/images4/PRO_1.gif
> right?
>
> actually the xcsoar representation is quite similar, only that the
> climb values are not drawn in a 3D way, but using a polar diagram.
> The arrow that WinPilot shows is also available in XCSoar, just not
> as emphasized and it will get larger once the suggestion to recenter
> gets stronger. could you elaborate on what exactly you think is
> better in the WinPilot representation?

SeeYou Mobile uses circles of differing size and color around the
thermal circle to show the thermal strength. It also has an arrow
suggesting the direction to move, and an audio alert when you should
level your wings to move the circle. The circles and arrow can be
assessed in a glance, or the audio alone can be used to avoid even the
need for a glance, all of which seem at least as useful as Winpilot's
depiction.

Mobile doesn't have the chart of lift versus time. How is this useful?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[email protected]

September 28th 12, 06:29 PM

On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:34:11 AM UTC-6, Tim Mara wrote:
> Unfortunately, this question will not be fairly answered as to "which vario
>
> is best" in this forum. What you are going to get is a lot of opinions based
>
> only on what variometers the responders have actually used and possibly what
>
> variometer they used that "they" liked better of the few systems they may
>
> have actually had a chance to use. Few is anyone here will have had an
>
> opportunity to realistically flown with or more over tested in any side by
>
> side comparison all of the most common types, also most will have used
>
> variometers in conjunction with other systems connected to or compared with
>
> what was in place at the time they may have flown with that system.
>
> Clearly variometer technology has changed over the years from the first
>
> pellet variometers to modern pressure transducer and GPS coupled systems.
>
> Many manufacturers today can produce good variometers with very common
>
> electronic parts and devices, added features and connectability to extended
>
> devices will normally be the determining factors in what systems the user
>
> chooses along with a proven history of reliability and support.
>
> tim
>
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>
>
>
>
>
> "Craig R." > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used?
>
> > Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the
>
> > thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> >
>
> > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles"
>
> > add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor.
>
> > Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> >
>
> > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage
>
> > mechanical.
>
> >
>
> > Which unit did it for you?

I have used the V7 this season and have really liked it and love the user interface. I am halfway done installing the Butterfly Vario right next to the V7 so we can all see the differences. I plan on doing a video of the two units in action as soon as I can finish the install. Due to limited time to get out and fly this may take another month or two but it will happen this year.

Thanks,
Bruno - B4

Ron Gleason

September 28th 12, 07:21 PM

On Friday, 28 September 2012 11:29:51 UTC-6, wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 25, 2012 8:34:11 AM UTC-6, Tim Mara wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, this question will not be fairly answered as to "which vario
>
> >
>
> > is best" in this forum. What you are going to get is a lot of opinions based
>
> >
>
> > only on what variometers the responders have actually used and possibly what
>
> >
>
> > variometer they used that "they" liked better of the few systems they may
>
> >
>
> > have actually had a chance to use. Few is anyone here will have had an
>
> >
>
> > opportunity to realistically flown with or more over tested in any side by
>
> >
>
> > side comparison all of the most common types, also most will have used
>
> >
>
> > variometers in conjunction with other systems connected to or compared with
>
> >
>
> > what was in place at the time they may have flown with that system.
>
> >
>
> > Clearly variometer technology has changed over the years from the first
>
> >
>
> > pellet variometers to modern pressure transducer and GPS coupled systems.
>
> >
>
> > Many manufacturers today can produce good variometers with very common
>
> >
>
> > electronic parts and devices, added features and connectability to extended
>
> >
>
> > devices will normally be the determining factors in what systems the user
>
> >
>
> > chooses along with a proven history of reliability and support.
>
> >
>
> > tim
>
> >
>
> > Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > "Craig R." > wrote in message
>
> >
>
> > ...
>
> >
>
> > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used?
>
> >
>
> > > Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the
>
> >
>
> > > thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles"
>
> >
>
> > > add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor.
>
> >
>
> > > Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage
>
> >
>
> > > mechanical.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Which unit did it for you?
>
>
>
> I have used the V7 this season and have really liked it and love the user interface. I am halfway done installing the Butterfly Vario right next to the V7 so we can all see the differences. I plan on doing a video of the two units in action as soon as I can finish the install. Due to limited time to get out and fly this may take another month or two but it will happen this year.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bruno - B4

Priorities are needed; fishing to feed the family or creating videos to feed the RAS'ers? Come on Bruno

Andrzej Kobus

September 28th 12, 11:18 PM

On Sep 28, 12:08*pm, Tobias Bieniek >
wrote:
> you can see the current implementation of XCSoar athttp://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2301/552152_459984440688...
>
> if you look close, you notice a blue line originating from the center of the thermal assistant. the other end of the line marks the point of the proposed thermal core and shows you the direction in which you would need to recenter. from what you've mentioned in the previous posting I understand that this indicator needs to be larger and possibly in an arrow-like form, correct?!
>
> there is also an alternative implementation proposed that looks like this:http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassi...
> feel free to comment on that one too. we are always open to suggestions and constructive criticism.

I think the current solution is better. Just make the arrow like in
WinPilot and the aircraft somewhat bigger or replace with the triangle
like in the proposed solution. The new solution is not as good as the
current one, gives less granular information.

Wheaton

September 29th 12, 02:25 AM

What happened to a good pair of eyes, a sensitive butt and any of the above varios?

6PK

September 29th 12, 02:30 AM

On Friday, September 28, 2012 6:25:17 PM UTC-7, Wheaton wrote:
> What happened to a good pair of eyes, a sensitive butt and any of the above varios?

They are still needed. But what is wrong with progress?!

jfitch

September 29th 12, 02:40 AM

On Friday, September 28, 2012 9:36:01 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 9/28/2012 2:22 AM, Tobias Bieniek wrote:
>
> > we are talking about http://www.winpilot.com/images4/PRO_1.gif
>
> > right?
>
> >
>
> > actually the xcsoar representation is quite similar, only that the
>
> > climb values are not drawn in a 3D way, but using a polar diagram.
>
> > The arrow that WinPilot shows is also available in XCSoar, just not
>
> > as emphasized and it will get larger once the suggestion to recenter
>
> > gets stronger. could you elaborate on what exactly you think is
>
> > better in the WinPilot representation?
>
>
>
> SeeYou Mobile uses circles of differing size and color around the
>
> thermal circle to show the thermal strength. It also has an arrow
>
> suggesting the direction to move, and an audio alert when you should
>
> level your wings to move the circle. The circles and arrow can be
>
> assessed in a glance, or the audio alone can be used to avoid even the
>
> need for a glance, all of which seem at least as useful as Winpilot's
>
> depiction.
>
>
>
> Mobile doesn't have the chart of lift versus time. How is this useful?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> email me)

The circles used by SYM are very coarse and do not convey much information, nor are they as easily interpreted at a glance. The arrow on SYM does not change length in any meaningful way. In contrast, the Winplot arrow will go from a dot (centered) to a huge thing all across the screen (you are WAY off!), conveying much more instantly. The graph of thermal strength is not useful for centering the thermal, but is useful in deciding when to leave.

On XCSoar, I think the current polar chart is much better than the proposed solutions. The polar chart gives about the same info as the Winpilot cylinder graph, though perhaps not quite as intuitive (up should after all be up, not out....). The arrow though is key, the computer is much fairer at integrating the climb around the circle than your butt or your eyes on a needle. Especially true of a whacky thermal or when your TE is messed up from prop wash. Just make sure the arrow changes length very obviously with lift asymmetry.

Tony[_5_]

September 29th 12, 02:46 AM

On Wednesday, September 26, 2012 4:48:33 PM UTC-5, Tim Mara wrote:
> some settings may not function unless the unit is restarted after making the
>
> changes to specific settings
>
> make sure after changing any settings that when you shut down you check the
>
> box to "save new profile"
>
> tim
>

i always have the save profile box selected when i close see you mobile. this change won't "stick" when i leave the thermal assistant setup box.

Tim Taylor

September 29th 12, 02:51 AM

Eric,

I have flown with with both SYM and WinPilot. The 3D graphic, auto start and sound are much better in WP than SYM. I wish SYM would offer a near duplicate of WP climb maximizer. Right now SYM takes two turns to start where WP starts after about 90 degrees. WP's graphic is much better in weak conditions. I have tried both of SYM option, both work OK, but why make so so software when there is better examples out there?

The history graph is extremely helpful. It provides a quick glance at the history to tell if the thermal is maintaining strength or slowly getting weaker. In thermals that are hard to really core you get a sinusoidal curve that helps to decide if you can adjust to find the core or leave the thermal. Again, SYM should add this as an option.

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

September 29th 12, 04:25 AM

On 9/28/2012 6:25 PM, Wheaton wrote:
> What happened to a good pair of eyes, a sensitive butt and any of the above varios?

One good reason is fiberglass construction, modern airfoils, and heavy
gliders. Fly slowly at 1-26 or K-6 speeds, and even a pellet vario can
work well. Blast through the thermal at 90-100 knots, full of water ...

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

AGL

September 29th 12, 05:28 PM

> One good reason is fiberglass construction, modern airfoils, and heavy
> gliders. Fly slowly at 1-26 or K-6 speeds, and even a pellet vario can
> work well. Blast through the thermal at 90-100 knots, full of water ...
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
>
So, the question becomes, what software is best for what conditions? This post assumes that the varios input to the software shows true lift without gusts etc.

The PC SeeYou stats showed that on 200 km of distance yesterday, with overdeveloped cloudbases as low as 2500 ft AGL, average climbs were as low as 1 knot or zero, getting blown home on wind. Most "circles" showed lift and 4 knot gusts at opposite sides of the circle, and sink everywhere else. Moving to one direction to the other resulted in the same thing with a different set of short term lift bubbles. That's trying both slow 45 degree banks, or back and forth sniffing in the bubbly area that had more lift than sink. When you're that low you have to do what you have to do.

Other people's flights on the OLC that day showed pretty mush the same conditions/results, but I didn't see anyone doing the "sniff around" method.

Sometimes you just have to fly around a bubbly area that has more lift than sink, and a 1 minute average lift option on a very weak bubble day would help. That's about the size of a "sniff around" area, which isn't a thermal at all even if there is more lift than sink. "Last thermal" stats on software I've used/seen so far stops working as soon as you go straight for any length of time.

So, what I'm saying is that the software development and discussion seems to be optimized for classic Texas lift silos on nice days, not for overdeveloped low weak days when you'r relying on the circulation from latent heat of liquidization just under cloudbase.

The suggested XCSOAR thermal assistant screen http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-attachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassistant.png would work well for these conditions if it would show a one mile sniffing area with bubble clusters, even if you're flying back and forth rather than circling. The outer ring would still work for the classic thermal situation.

So, I would suggest that Tobias' proposal works for more situations than Andrzej's objection, since not all of us can assume classic thermal silos of lift on non-classic lift days.

Steve Koerner

September 29th 12, 09:08 PM

I sure hope that the ClearNav folks are gathering input here about the benefit of a good climb maximizer feature. I am in agreement with the posters here who think that only WinPilot has gotten it right so far. I do wish that the ClearNav software would include an emulation of the WinPilot climb maximizer so that I can finally ditch the damn PDA from my panel. The zoom-in feature that the ClearNav offers now is nowhere nears as good. As Tim has noted, the maximizer should come on automatically and quickly, then quickly go off when you leave the thermal. The WinPilot continuous graph is way more effective than lift dots.

One characteristic that is also important and not yet mentioned here is the matter of time delay. WinPilot has no discernable delay; whereas other systems, including ClearNav, have a time delay in the display that makes it very difficult to interpret what's really going on when trying to reposition in a thermal.

Evan Ludeman[_4_]

September 29th 12, 09:21 PM

On Saturday, September 29, 2012 4:08:26 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> I sure hope that the ClearNav folks are gathering input here about the benefit of a good climb maximizer feature.

Noted.

T8 for ClearNav

Michael Clarke

September 29th 12, 09:31 PM

At 16:28 29 September 2012, AGL wrote:
>
>> One good reason is fiberglass construction, modern airfoils, and
heavy=20
>> gliders. Fly slowly at 1-26 or K-6 speeds, and even a pellet vario
can=20
>> work well. Blast through the thermal at 90-100 knots, full of water ...
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to=20
>>=20
>>
>So, the question becomes, what software is best for what conditions?
This
>=
>post assumes that the varios input to the software shows true lift
without
>=
>gusts etc.
>
>The PC SeeYou stats showed that on 200 km of distance yesterday, with
>overd=
>eveloped cloudbases as low as 2500 ft AGL, average climbs were as low as
1
>=
>knot or zero, getting blown home on wind. Most "circles" showed lift and
>4=
> knot gusts at opposite sides of the circle, and sink everywhere else.
>Mov=
>ing to one direction to the other resulted in the same thing with a
>differe=
>nt set of short term lift bubbles. That's trying both slow 45 degree
>banks=
>, or back and forth sniffing in the bubbly area that had more lift than
>sin=
>k. When you're that low you have to do what you have to do.
>
>Other people's flights on the OLC that day showed pretty mush the same
>cond=
>itions/results, but I didn't see anyone doing the "sniff around" method.
>
>Sometimes you just have to fly around a bubbly area that has more lift
>than=
> sink, and a 1 minute average lift option on a very weak bubble day would
>h=
>elp. That's about the size of a "sniff around" area, which isn't a
>thermal=
> at all even if there is more lift than sink. "Last thermal" stats on
>soft=
>ware I've used/seen so far stops working as soon as you go straight for
>any=
> length of time.
>
>So, what I'm saying is that the software development and discussion seems
>t=
>o be optimized for classic Texas lift silos on nice days, not for
>overdevel=
>oped low weak days when you'r relying on the circulation from latent heat
>o=
>f liquidization just under cloudbase.
>
>The suggested XCSOAR thermal assistant screen
>http://bugs.xcsoar.org/raw-at=
>tachment/ticket/2148/modifiedthermalassistant.png would work well for
>these=
> conditions if it would show a one mile sniffing area with bubble
>clusters,=
> even if you're flying back and forth rather than circling. The outer
>ring=
> would still work for the classic thermal situation.
>
>So, I would suggest that Tobias' proposal works for more situations than
>An=
>drzej's objection, since not all of us can assume classic thermal silos
of
>=
>lift on non-classic lift days.
>
>
Try an LX8000 with track set to display vario (colour coding). Great for
sniffing around as you describe, and thermals that shift as you climb.

Mike

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

September 29th 12, 10:12 PM

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:31:15 +0000, Michael Clarke wrote:

> Try an LX8000 with track set to display vario (colour coding). Great for
> sniffing around as you describe, and thermals that shift as you climb.
>
Agreed about the colour coded track. LK8000 uses the same colour coding
scheme for its track display. I find this is more useful for sniffing
round a thermal than the thermal finder, which I've turned off. As my
normal thermalling technique uses the vario audio to re-center every
circle I don't bother looking at LK8000 once I've found the thermal,
though I may occasionally glance at its thermalling history bar.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Tobias Bieniek

September 29th 12, 11:43 PM

not sure what color profile the LX8000 is using, but XCSoar also shows the track color coded to the amount of lift. you can choose between two different color sets (including the Naviter/SeeYou color profile) and a third one that color codes the altitude instead of the lift.

basically that means that there are two types of thermal assistants in XCSoar. the traditional method with the color coded track on the map and the additional thermal assistant gauge that obviously works best for perfect round thermals and a good vario connected to it.

I personally have used the gauge for about two years now with my XCSoar device connected to a Flarm, that only outputs the barometric altitude and no direct vario signal, and I have to say that even with this small setup I am still impressed on how well the assistant already works. I can't even imagine how perfect it would work when connected to the "best performing vario" that this thread was originally about.

KiloKilo[_2_]

September 30th 12, 03:24 AM

I have been flying with the CNv for a season and can say it is the best vario I have ever had in my panel. I installed the unit at the field on the practice day of the 15m nats - and was immediately comfortable and confident with the CNv - I found it to be accurate, smooth and fast - especially on windy/choppy days or when low in rough small thermals. I don't look at my vario much when flying - I usually just take an occasional look at the averager to understand lift quality - and use the vario audio as primary guidance to find/center the best lift. Although the ClearNav team is developing an extended set of features for the CNv, these are much less important to me personally - I really just want a vario to provide excellent air/lift information - especially when low and in a jam. Based on one season of flying, for me, the CNv delivers.

Ken Kochanski - KK
ClearNav Website Support

Jim[_32_]

September 30th 12, 10:47 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:39:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 9:10:55 PM UTC-4, Steve Koerner wrote:
> My favorite until recently was the Westerboer VW900. Great for digging out
> from low. My new favorite is the CNv. Eagerly awaiting the updates for it.
>
> -- Matt

Me too. Did exactly the same thing and think the VW910 was almost as good as my CNv (for vario/netto function). My old stuff is now on sale on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/130775771120

-Jim

Andrzej Kobus

October 1st 12, 02:16 AM

Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
software available (assuming no switch installed)?

[email protected]

October 1st 12, 03:36 PM

On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>
> software available (assuming no switch installed)?

In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.

The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).

This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a circling
detector at some point.

-- Matt

Evan Ludeman[_4_]

October 1st 12, 03:47 PM

On Oct 1, 10:36*am, wrote:

> This does seem to be a work in progress however. *I'm hoping for a circling
> detector at some point.

Yes, and it's coming, respectively. Probably GPS track based (like
302, which works great).

T8 for ClearNav

John Cochrane[_3_]

October 1st 12, 04:23 PM

On Sep 29, 3:08*pm, Steve Koerner > wrote:
> I sure hope that the ClearNav folks are gathering input here about the benefit of a good climb maximizer feature. *I am in agreement with the posters here who think that only WinPilot has gotten it right so far. * I do wish that the ClearNav software would include an emulation of the WinPilot climb maximizer so that I can finally ditch the damn PDA from my panel. *The zoom-in feature that the ClearNav offers now is nowhere nears as good. *As Tim has noted, the maximizer should come on automatically and quickly, then quickly go off when you leave the thermal. *The WinPilot continuous graph is way more effective than lift dots.
>
> One characteristic that is also important and not yet mentioned here is the matter of time delay. *WinPilot has no discernable delay; whereas other systems, including ClearNav, have a time delay in the display that makes it very difficult to interpret what's really going on when trying to reposition in a thermal.

Simple suggestions for CN maximizer improvement:
1) Automatic on as you start thermaling!
2) Drift the dots with the wind.
3) include a N arrow to help deal with screen refresh delay
4) anticipate the screen refresh time -- paint the screen rotated in
the direction of turn so that by the time the screen is refreshed it's
pointing where you want to go.
5) blank dots more than 10 circles old -- or keep them as track only
but not dots (useful to find old thermals, but the dots all merge to a
green mess otherwise)

Even in its current form the CN display is very useful. I was out
thrashing around in broken up blue thermals all weekend; when you try
some big maneuver that doesn't work out it's very easy to lose track
of where that last good gust was. Even in wind, I got back to several
cores that I had lost with CN.
I also find it useful when you find a big tight core and you're full
of water. The big zoomie and turn leaves you several diameters away
from the original core. Keeping track of the effect of speed on
thermaling moves is hard.
But... don't forget to look outside for birds, corn stalks, other
gliders, etc. ... still better than any maximizer!

John Cochane

Dan Marotta

October 1st 12, 05:02 PM

Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
LS-6. Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". Easy
and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
mode.

> wrote in message
...
> On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
>> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>>
>> software available (assuming no switch installed)?
>
> In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
> software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
> switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
> now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The
> change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.
>
> The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
> it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
> a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
> down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).
>
> This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a
> circling
> detector at some point.
>
> -- Matt

Andrzej Kobus

October 1st 12, 07:33 PM

On Oct 1, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
> LS-6. *Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". *Easy
> and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
> mode.
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> >> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>
> >> software available (assuming no switch installed)?
>
> > In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. *A
> > software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
> > switching at 65kts. *Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
> > now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. *The
> > change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.
>
> > The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
> > it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
> > a thermal. *65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
> > down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).
>
> > This does seem to be a work in progress however. *I'm hoping for a
> > circling
> > detector at some point.
>
> > -- Matt

It is the 21st century why would I need switches? CAI 302 does great
switching by itself and it was not designed yesterday. As a consumer I
would expect ClearNav to be at least as good as CAI 302. I hope it
happens. It would be nice to have a release schedule at least with
things like electronic compensation and climb/run switching. I would
consider these to be basic features of a modern variometer. I hope
this happens soon.

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

October 1st 12, 08:49 PM

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 07:47:31 -0700, Evan Ludeman wrote:

> On Oct 1, 10:36Â*am, wrote:
>
>> This does seem to be a work in progress however. Â*I'm hoping for a
>> circling detector at some point.
>
> Yes, and it's coming, respectively. Probably GPS track based (like 302,
> which works great).
>
I have an SDI C4 which offers the choice of circling detection (off the
GPS) and speed switching. Circling detection isn't tweakable - it
switched after 90 or 270 degrees depending on (amongst other things) how
tight you turn. Speed switching is highly customisable: you have separate
settings for the speed to switch from cruise->climb and climb->cruise,
which is great as I prefer the climb->cruise to be set a bit higher than
the cruise->climb transition. I prefer speed switching to circle
detection because it allows me to stay in climb mode along a weak street.

The SDI C3 also has a three position switch (up=climb, centre=auto,
down=cruise) which overrides automatic mode selection but this was
deleted from the C4 (actually, the C4 offers a choice of manual, circle
or speed switching but these are all mutually exclusive: it has no
equivalent of the C3's manual override). IMO the C3 setup was better, but
with tuning the C4's speed switching is very good: the vario is in the
appropriate mode 95% of the time.

IME a good move would be to consider using the C3 type setup for the CN:
the ability to adjust the two switching speeds to suit the glider type
and your flying style is an essential feature.

The C3/C4 also operates as a standard TE vario in climb mode and as a
super-netto type in cruise. This also works well for me.

> T8 for ClearNav

HTH

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Craig Funston[_2_]

October 1st 12, 10:00 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s?

Thanks,
Craig

Jim[_32_]

October 2nd 12, 12:56 AM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
>
> > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Which unit did it for you?
>
>
>
> For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Craig

There's wind data? I haven't found it on mine yet. I thought that was one of the as-yet un-implemented features!

Jim

Craig Funston[_2_]

October 2nd 12, 01:39 AM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, Jim wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Which unit did it for you?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Thanks,
>
> >
>
> > Craig
>
>
>
> There's wind data? I haven't found it on mine yet. I thought that was one of the as-yet un-implemented features!
>
>
>
> Jim

It's a bit hard to tell from the ClearNav website and from Cumulus Soaring. Sounds like it might not have been implemented yet...

Craig

Craig Funston[_2_]

October 2nd 12, 01:41 AM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:39:01 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, Jim wrote:
>
> > On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Which unit did it for you?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Thanks,
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Craig
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > There's wind data? I haven't found it on mine yet. I thought that was one of the as-yet un-implemented features!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Jim
>
>
>
> It's a bit hard to tell from the ClearNav website and from Cumulus Soaring. Sounds like it might not have been implemented yet...
>
>
>
> Craig

I'd rather see the team work on winds aloft before thermal centering.

Craig

[email protected]

October 2nd 12, 02:31 AM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:41:18 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:39:01 PM UTC-7, Craig Funston wrote: > On Monday, October 1, 2012 4:56:54 PM UTC-7, Jim wrote: > > > On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:00:03 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote: > > > > > > > On Saturday, September 22, 2012 8:58:15 AM UTC-7, Craig R. wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor.. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which unit did it for you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For those of you that are flying the ClearNav varios. How do you find the wind data on the vario (not SeeYou, LK8000, etc.) compares with your buddies flying with SN10s? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > > > > > > > There's wind data? I haven't found it on mine yet. I thought that was one of the as-yet un-implemented features! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > It's a bit hard to tell from the ClearNav website and from Cumulus Soaring. Sounds like it might not have been implemented yet... > > > > Craig I'd rather see the team work on winds aloft before thermal centering. Craig

All are depending upon GPS funtionality which is still to come. Look forward to faster progress now that the team has evolved.
UH

[email protected][_1_]

October 2nd 12, 06:43 AM

Hey John:

How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair?

The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling.

I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it.

Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified.

The solution? FLARM, of course!

Addictions come in many flavors.

6PK

October 2nd 12, 03:13 PM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:43:12 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> Hey John: How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair? The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling. I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it. Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified. The solution? FLARM, of course! Addictions come in many flavors.

Unknowen. You are certainly not wrong here but not correct either.
Looking, glancing and referring to a "climb maximizer" is NO DIFFERENT than looking, glancing and referring to a vario. I read statements previously in this thread that one should only fly by the sound of an audio and the seat of the pants but I would very much doubt if anyone actually consistently does this. After all I can't remember the last time, if ever I seen a sailplane without a visual vario. The matter affect why would anyone spend in some cases thousands of dollars on a vario if not to use it?! I for one would glance at the vario OR climb maximizer once or twice in a turn and I'm sure this takes away very little from my situational awareness.
6PK

Evan Ludeman[_4_]

October 2nd 12, 03:44 PM

On Oct 2, 1:43*am, wrote:
> Hey John:
>
> How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair?
>
> The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling..
>
> I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it.
>
> Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? *I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified.
>
> The solution? *FLARM, of course!
>
> Addictions come in many flavors.

I am sympathetic to Mark's worry. It gets worse (for me) when I
consider how many of YOU want real time wx in the cockpit, flarm radar
with glide slope to the best gaggle and goodness know what else. I
think many instrument makers are breeding very nearsighted video ga...
er, "pilots".

The WP optimizer is worthy of a comment because it was reasonably well
designed for minimum pilot fuss. It told you when to roll wings level
to center the thermal and as these things go, didn't require much
attention. I did feel like I needed to go shower after using it, but
as I've said elsewhere, my problem was actually a buggy vario.

The XCSoar optimizer I thought was a joke. What XCSoar did that I
thought really handy was calculate the center of lift and display this
on the map, drifted for calculated wind. This saved my ass a couple
of times when trying to dig out at the end of the day. You know the
scenario: planning your landing, oops here's a thermal, three turns
going up, start to relax a little and whoa!, where'd the little
stinker go? If it hadn't dissipated, XCSoar generally knew where the
center was. Obviously, one had to be zoomed in, real close, for this
to be effective.

The track function in CN sort of works for optimizing when zoomed all
the way in, though it becomes much less useful in direct proportion to
wind because it simply reports lift vs your (2d) gps location
history. I hope people are not over using this. To the extent that
we need a thermal centering tool in CN, I hope we can come up with
something better (it's not the top priority). Imo the current
presentation isn't "efficient" enough. The whole strength of CN is
hitting you with all the info you need at any given instant, at a
glance. We want your eyeballs pointed outside the cockpit.

T8

Steve Koerner

October 2nd 12, 08:51 PM

Mr Unknown and other concerned parties may not be aware that the Winpilot optimizer provides a beep tone when it thinks you should open up your circle to recenter your thermal. It does a pretty good job of helping out if your attention drifts and you are no longer doing your thermalling work just right. In crowded circumstancs the WP optimizer can be used without looking down at all.

This audio tone feature is part of the WP Optimizer functionality that CN should be emulating. I'm happy to hear that the CN code is being actively improved but please don't relegate this to low priority.

kirk.stant

October 2nd 12, 10:56 PM

With all this discussion of various thermal centering devices, one should also mention Themi. No pretty pictures, just two bright LEDs and some sophisticated software that helps you find and stay in the center of drifting thermals. Takes a bit to get used to it, but I find that I either make a decision to move just before my Themi tells me to, or when I'm clueless in a shifty core, I just follow the bright lights and they lead me back to the lift. The nice part of the Themi system is that it takes almost no heads down time - you catch the LEDs out of the corner of your eye and adjust pretty automatically.

Combined with SYMs lift dots on your trace, makes it pretty easy (most of the time...)

Plus it's an IGC logger and GPS source. A bit awkward to download, but makes for a good backup logger.

Kirk
66

Sean F (F2)

October 4th 12, 04:48 PM

I find the LX V7 Vario to be very intuitive and solid. Price to performance is very hard to argue with.

I considered the ClearNav vario at first but it seemed to take a very long time to develop...which made me wonder. After years of waiting, the CN vario was STILL was not ready at the SSA convention (RENO) last winter where I bought a V7 at a nice price. I knew ClearNav changed software developers mid stream which can never be a good sign.

In terms of performance, all the modern variometers use multiple accelerometers and custom algorithms to maximize the accuracy, smoothness etc of the instrument. They all should be a step ahead of the older generation units. So the folks claiming it is smooth, etc vs. their 302's are not really saying much in comparison to all modern vario's currently available. They are all better, smoother, more advanced than the older vario's. The question is who has used them all and made any quantitative analysis of what one performs better. Answer: nobody has. Subjective at best here.

Also, the ClearNav vario is a bit boring and "plain Jane." Basically a 302 look. No color, no modern UI. The V7 shows me 4 key pieces of vario information (electronic needles in addition to a mechanical needle) at once via symbols as well as numeric information. The ClearNav vario is a upgraded 302 with the same single mechanical needle and a couple numeric readouts. Not a ground up new vario in my opinion. No UI advancements.

It is clear to me that the Butterfly vario is the most powerful vario instrument available, and also the latest to be developed although all of the manufactures are constantly refining their firmware (improving or fixing errors). From what I have heard it is really nice. But at $3500 it is very expensive. An entire LX 8000 or 8080 flight computer (including essentially a V7 vario...V5 in this case) is $5000. I was close to buying the Butterfly.

For what it's worth I chose a V7 and for $1500 bucks it has been excellent. I run it with a Colibri II (GPS) and a Dell Streak 5 running XC Soar. This combination is a exceptional set-up in a racing glider. And also VERY affordable.

Sean
F2

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

jfitch

October 5th 12, 01:56 PM

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:43:12 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> Hey John:
>
>
>
> How about we all look outside for things we would prefer not to midair?
>
>
>
> The nature and volume of discussion regarding "climb maximizer" screens suggests that many pilots are seriously focused "head-down" while thermaling..
>
>
>
> I know everyone will soundly proclaim that this is absolutely not the case and that they are maintaining an appropriate traffic scan and situational awareness while simultaneously checking the maximizer screen but I do not believe it.
>
>
>
> Are glider pilots becoming the airborne equivalent of the modern teen-ager who walks into the shopping mall fountain, head-down while staring at their electronic devices? I tend to believe this is true which leaves me horrified.
>
>
>
> The solution? FLARM, of course!
>
>
>
> Addictions come in many flavors.

This is why presentation is so important. All of these climb maximizers are working with the same data. WP is doing a much better job of presenting it.. On SYMs version, you will be studying the screen trying to interpret it - on WP a 1/2 second glance (quite literally) is all that is required.

This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

kirk.stant

October 5th 12, 04:04 PM

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

> This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.

Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.

Kirk

Dan Marotta

October 5th 12, 04:34 PM

I don't like the switching in my CAI302. It seems I have to turn greater
than 180 degrees before it switches and, if I roll out for a couple of
seconds to shift my thermal, it will switch back to cruise mode, requiring
another 180+ degrees before switching back to circling mode. ... Or maybe
that's my XCSoar program. I'll have to give it a close look today if the
winds aren't howling.

"Andrzej Kobus" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 1, 12:02 pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
> LS-6. Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". Easy
> and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
> mode.
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> >> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>
> >> software available (assuming no switch installed)?
>
> > In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
> > software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
> > switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
> > now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The
> > change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.
>
> > The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
> > it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
> > a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
> > down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).
>
> > This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a
> > circling
> > detector at some point.
>
> > -- Matt

It is the 21st century why would I need switches? CAI 302 does great
switching by itself and it was not designed yesterday. As a consumer I
would expect ClearNav to be at least as good as CAI 302. I hope it
happens. It would be nice to have a release schedule at least with
things like electronic compensation and climb/run switching. I would
consider these to be basic features of a modern variometer. I hope
this happens soon.

Andrzej Kobus

October 5th 12, 04:50 PM

Dan, CAI 302 switches after 7s from the time it detects change in
direction (if the change continues). Since when you start turning it
takes a couple of sec to get to the 40-45 deg turn so it is more
likely the switch will happen in less than 90 deg but no more than 120
deg and if your turn is shallow than even in fewer degrees. If you run
your vario in relative netto there is nothing you need to wait for
anyway since the needle already shows you the right value provided you
are flying with speed close to what you need to to climb.

My experience with CAI 302 is very good. As others said it is a very
good variometer.

On Oct 5, 11:39*am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> I don't like the switching in my CAI302. *It seems I have to turn greater
> than 180 degrees before it switches and, if I roll out for a couple of
> seconds to shift my thermal, it will switch back to cruise mode, requiring
> another 180+ degrees before switching back to circling mode. *... Or maybe
> that's my XCSoar program. *I'll have to give it a close look today if the
> winds aren't howling.
>
> "Andrzej Kobus" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Oct 1, 12:02 pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Years back, I installed a simple toggle switch on top of the stick in my
> > LS-6. Switch forward meant "Go Fast", switch back meant "Thermal". Easy
> > and intuitive, no reaching to the panel to switch between cruise and climb
> > mode.
>
> > > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:16:24 PM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
> > >> Can anyone tell me how CN switches from Cruise to Climb with the
>
> > >> software available (assuming no switch installed)?
>
> > > In the case of my vario, it showed up with a switch already wired in. A
> > > software update came along about the same time that enabled automatic
> > > switching at 65kts. Unfortunately you can only do one or the other right
> > > now; I couldn't find a config screen in the vario to change that. The
> > > change has to be done using their profile generator program on a PC.
>
> > > The switch was easy to install in the panel, but
> > > it's a pain to have to fiddle with it whenever you want to start working
> > > a thermal. 65kts is just too fast in my plane for searching for lift
> > > down low (it's about MC 1.5kts for me).
>
> > > This does seem to be a work in progress however. I'm hoping for a
> > > circling
> > > detector at some point.
>
> > > -- Matt
>
> It is the 21st century why would I need switches? CAI 302 does great
> switching by itself and it was not designed yesterday. As a consumer I
> would expect ClearNav to be at least as good as CAI 302. I hope it
> happens. It would be nice to have a release schedule at least with
> things like electronic compensation and climb/run switching. I would
> consider these to be basic features of a modern variometer. I hope
> this happens soon.

Eric Greenwell[_4_]

October 5th 12, 07:17 PM

On 10/5/2012 5:56 AM, jfitch wrote:
> This is why presentation is so important. All of these climb
> maximizers are working with the same data. WP is doing a much better
> job of presenting it. On SYMs version, you will be studying the
> screen trying to interpret it - on WP a 1/2 second glance (quite
> literally) is all that is required.

When I was using SYM and it's "thermal assistant", a half second was all
it took to interpret the screen: basically, "Where are the big red
bubbles"? I don't recall ever studying the screen; often, the audio
alert to level the wings was enough - no glance needed. In fact, I found
it most useful when I was distracted doing other things and had little
time to pay attention to the screen or even the vario. By "Things", I
mean stopping the propeller and stowing the engine, keeping track of
another glider or two in the thermal, taking pictures, desperately
looking around for lift indications while attempting a low save - stuff
like that.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

jfitch

October 5th 12, 07:23 PM

On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>
>
>
> > This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.
>
>
>
> Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.
>
>
>
> Kirk

I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>....>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.

I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

kirk.stant

October 5th 12, 07:46 PM

On Friday, October 5, 2012 1:23:14 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

> I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...).. Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.
> I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

Agree that some of the buttons are a bit small - but getting better. Hopefully, competition from XCSoar and LK8000 will bring some changes. But as far as changing tasks inflight - that isn't done in Europe (and really shouldn't be done in the US, IMHO), so wasn't probably a priority. Easy enough to program several tasks and just choose the one you need.

To add to a task: Task - Tools - Map - touch the desired tp - Yes to append point - OK. 6 taps.

To delete from a task: Task - select tp to delete - tools - Delete Point - YES - OK, 6 taps.

Not great (I used to use WP and do remember that it's task selection procedure was better) but OK.

How can iGlide use one tap to add or delete a point?

Kirk
66

waremark

October 6th 12, 12:09 AM

On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:23:14 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> > On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point.. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Kirk
>
>
>
> I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...).. Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.
>
>
>
> I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!

I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good.

Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight.

Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK.

One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned.

Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task).

How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?).

waremark

October 6th 12, 12:33 AM

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:09:48 AM UTC+1, waremark wrote:
> On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:23:14 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>
> > On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Kirk
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (....). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!
>
>
>
> I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good.
>
>
>
> Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight.
>
>
>
> Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK.
>
>
>
> One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned.
>
>
>
> Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task).
>
>
>
> How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?).

PS Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO.

PS again - if you really want to insert an additional waypoint in the Task page, touch Task (on the Navbox to which you have assigned this action)/Tools/Insert/Ok to insert a blank waypoint, touch that waypoint in the task list and then Keyb to change the blank waypoint to one you want.

I really don't find a material change between WP and SYM (I fly with both).

6PK

October 6th 12, 01:03 AM

On Friday, October 5, 2012 4:33:37 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
> On Saturday, October 6, 2012 12:09:48 AM UTC+1, waremark wrote: > On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:23:14 PM UTC+1, jfitch wrote: > > > On Friday, October 5, 2012 8:04:55 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote: > > > > > > > On Friday, October 5, 2012 7:56:22 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is also why I am concerned about it taking 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. In terms of eyes-in-the-cockpit, that is a much more serious situation, requiring maybe 30 seconds of concentrated effort - vs. 3 seconds or so for the better products. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please explain how it takes you 9+ button pushes to change a turn point. Are you talking about making a task change inflight? That takes 8 total from map to map, to change or add a tp in a task. Or are you talking about selecting a new tp to steer to? That takes 3 actions. SYM is not the best, but it's not bad either. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > > > > > > > I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (...). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one! > > > > I agree that the ease of doing these things is vital. SYM and WP are both very good. > > > > Sounds like you should read the manual. It seems a very bad idea to scroll a list in flight. > > > > Assign Menu/Task to one of your navboxes, that way it is one touch to get to the Task page. Touch the waypoint you want to change, then touch KEYB. Enter the first three letters of the new waypoint using the big keyboard, OK, OK. > > > > One more keystroke than WP so far as I am concerned. > > > > Or do it on the map page. Touch the map near the desired waypoint (pan if necessary) - brings up a waypoint list with the nearest at the top. Touch Goto. You are going to it (OK, that has not inserted it to the task). > > > > How can iGlide do it in a single touch? (I lost interest in iGlide because I only knew it ran on iPhone/iPad, one too big, the other too small, and neither bright enough - what do you run it on?). PS Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO. PS again - if you really want to insert an additional waypoint in the Task page, touch Task (on the Navbox to which you have assigned this action)/Tools/Insert/Ok to insert a blank waypoint, touch that waypoint in the task list and then Keyb to change the blank waypoint to one you want. I really don't find a material change between WP and SYM (I fly with both).

Waremark wrote above: "Further way of doing it in SYM - drag your finger on the map in the desired direction (not on the glider symbol which moves the map), brings up a list of waypoints in that direction, touch one you want and touch GOTO. "
WP does the same thing.The ones you can make are highlighted in green, the ones you might make if slowed down highlighted in yellow.It is fast, easy and again takes the least amount of time looking at the thing. I suggeted this idea to the good folks at XCSoar and they (one at least) thought I lost my mine. Human nature I guess- if it was not your idea it can not possibly be any good.(But they are still doing a great job for peanuts- much appriciated). 6PK

jfitch

October 6th 12, 01:44 AM

On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:46:15 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, October 5, 2012 1:23:14 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
>
>
>
> > I am talking about an in-flight addition or replacement of turnpoint in a task. When I do it in SYM it takes 9 plus however much scrolling is involved in finding the turn point. Maybe there is an easier way than the ones I have figured out? Menu>Task>(select where or what you want to change>Insert>...>(scroll to turnpoint>higlight>Select>Ok>Ok - 9+, isn't it? This is the worst of the programs I have actually tried in flight. A few of the buttons are small and hard to hit in turbulence, for example the ellipsis (....). Even just deleting a point is 7 buttons.
>
> > I don't think I have counted them up on XCSoar. WP is 4+ and less fiddly buttons too. iGlide is one!
>
>
>
> Agree that some of the buttons are a bit small - but getting better. Hopefully, competition from XCSoar and LK8000 will bring some changes. But as far as changing tasks inflight - that isn't done in Europe (and really shouldn't be done in the US, IMHO), so wasn't probably a priority. Easy enough to program several tasks and just choose the one you need.
>
>
>
> To add to a task: Task - Tools - Map - touch the desired tp - Yes to append point - OK. 6 taps.
>
>
>
> To delete from a task: Task - select tp to delete - tools - Delete Point - YES - OK, 6 taps.
>
>
>
> Not great (I used to use WP and do remember that it's task selection procedure was better) but OK.
>
>
>
> How can iGlide use one tap to add or delete a point?
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

I don't fly contests, but fly each day as a sort of POST task. I add turnpoints as I decide where to go. This is how many recreational pilots I know fly as well.

The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by Menu>Task>Tools>Map>select zoom>(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t>(click and drag turnpoint to new location)>OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.

On iGlide, you simply tap and drag the turnpoint you want to move. To add another, tap and drag the task segment you want to add it to - a new turnpoint is created and rubber bands the task to fit. To delete a turnpoint, tap and drag it onto the next or previous one. In any case, only one tap and drag. I have run iGlide on an iPhone 4S. Even though the screen is smaller, it is more legible than most PDAs, certainly better than SYM or WP on an iPaq. I haven't flown with an Oudie. iGlide is not yet feature complete, but the user interface is decades ahead of anything else.

J. Murray

October 6th 12, 08:15 PM

Here's another vote for V7 + Oudie + Nano. It's been working great for me this summer. I like that it's easy to configure, affordable-ish, and mostly foolproof. It's also a super-cool looking display and a compact installation.

Jim

waremark

October 6th 12, 10:29 PM

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>
> The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by Menu>Task>Tools>Map>select zoom>(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t>(click and drag turnpoint to new location)>OK.. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.
>

Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.

jfitch

October 7th 12, 12:40 AM

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 2:29:22 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
> On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by Menu>Task>Tools>Map>select zoom>(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t>(click and drag turnpoint to new location)>OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.
>
> >
>
>
>
> Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.

I suppose it does depend. I fly over a large area (roughly 50,000 sq miles), current turnpoint database has something like 140 turnpoints. I have no idea what some of them even are, how they were entered, how spelled, etc. - all a prerequisite to typing them in!

waremark

October 7th 12, 11:25 PM

On Sunday, October 7, 2012 12:40:48 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, October 6, 2012 2:29:22 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:44:17 AM UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > The method you describe only appends a turnpoint to the end . I did find I could change a turnpoint by Menu>Task>Tools>Map>select zoom>(guess what zoom you need and click on i)t>(click and drag turnpoint to new location)>OK. That's only 8 clicks, certainly better than adding the new and deleting the old from the list which takes around 15 clicks minimum. Typing in the name of the waypoint is *really* a poor way of doing it.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Strange how people differ. I would not contemplate using that technique which would seem far too fiddly to do in the air. For me typing the three letter description on top of the replaced turnpoint is easy and not fiddly. The same system works for replacing or adding. The screen keyboard is large - so long as you have a 5 inch screen. The ways to do it in WP and SYM are almost the same. Touching the screen near where you want to go to and touching GOTO also sounds like a very easy way to navigate somewhere, as you can do in SYM pan mode.
>
>
>
> I suppose it does depend. I fly over a large area (roughly 50,000 sq miles), >current turnpoint database has something like 140 turnpoints. I have no idea >what some of them even are, how they were entered, how spelled, etc.. - all a >prerequisite to typing them in!

I fly in the UK; I have the full British Gliding Association turnpoint list of 1,200 turnpoints loaded. I have them formatted to use the BGA three letter code as the first three characters of the name, and I show those first three characters on the map - and I would input those characters when I want to change/insert/goto a different turnpoint.

Henryturner

December 10th 12, 11:25 AM

In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.

I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge peimar led lights (http://www.niceledlights.com) and some say the Sage mechanical.

Which unit did it for you?

I will go with Cambridge Units I love them most

February 5th 13, 06:11 PM

On Saturday, 22 September 2012 16:58:15 UTC+1, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.

I've had a B400 for a couple of years now and it's a wonderful vario - fast and accurate as well as simple to install. It's not got all the fancy guff that everybody seems to like playing around with but it has got me into plenty of thermals and more importantly helped me get the best climb the whole way up. It also tells you all you need to know audibly without you needing to look at the display constantly and provides a battery pack for backup

I haven't tried the posher models with speed to fly as I go with the Spreckley school of speeds which doesn't require a slavish following of a needle but a good view at the lovely scenery :)

Flown with Zander 940, Cambridge, B50s and a few others but the B400 and the 'improving' tones are the best.

waremark

February 5th 13, 11:56 PM

Hi 7C. I shall hope to get you to try the LX9000 this year and see what you think. In the very brief experience I have had so far the thermal centering aid seemed particularly good.

I fear it is the quality of the backside which separates better pilots from the mediocre like me, not the quality of the vario.

[email protected]

February 6th 13, 11:07 AM

On Tue, 5 Feb 2013 10:11:29 -0800 (PST), 7C >
wrote:

>On Saturday, 22 September 2012 16:58:15 UTC+1, Craig R. wrote:
>> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>I've had a B400 for a couple of years now and it's a wonderful vario - fast and accurate as well as simple to install. It's not got all the fancy guff that everybody seems to like playing around with but it has got me into plenty of thermals and more importantly helped me get the best climb the whole way up. It also tells you all you need to know audibly without you needing to look at the display constantly and provides a battery pack for backup
>
>I haven't tried the posher models with speed to fly as I go with the Spreckley school of speeds which doesn't require a slavish following of a needle but a good view at the lovely scenery :)
>
>Flown with Zander 940, Cambridge, B50s and a few others but the B400 and the 'improving' tones are the best.

For pneumatic varios the Sage carefully set up with just the right
restrictor can't be beaten.

son_of_flubber

February 7th 13, 06:07 PM

Why don't PNA developers emulate the Themi interface? Brighter screens should make that possible nowadays. Being able to get centering help via peripheral vision seems huge... especially if you're not the only one flying in a thermal.

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/themi.htm

February 7th 13, 07:38 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

Hi
The Butterfly vario look great on paper. Any actual user with an opinion on it's performance
in this group.
S6

Richard[_9_]

February 7th 13, 09:26 PM

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 11:38:48 AM UTC-8, s6 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > Which unit did it for you? Hi The Butterfly vario look great on paper. Any actual user with an opinion on it's performance in this group. S6

S6

I have about 30 hours on the Butterfly vario. It is as nice as it looks.

Please see the YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0IVkHUnWU

They have recently add the ability to read a SeeYou .cup file for the goto, it should also be IGC approved soon and the speed to fly SC mode has a compensation setting that can be customized.

http://www.craggyaero.com/butterfly.htm

Richard,
Craggy Aero LLC

Richard[_9_]

February 7th 13, 09:31 PM

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 11:38:48 AM UTC-8, s6 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > Which unit did it for you? Hi The Butterfly vario look great on paper. Any actual user with an opinion on it's performance in this group. S6

I have about 30 hours on the Butterfly Vario. It is as nice as it looks on page.

It is the only instrument I have seen that looks as good in direct sun as my Ultimate Le flight computer.

They have recently added the ability to use SeeYou .cup files for the goto function, it is in the approval process for the ICG approval for the flight recorder and a compensation menu for the SC speed to fly has been added.

See the YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0IVkHUnWU

Richard
http://www.craggyaero.com/butterfly.htm

February 7th 13, 11:13 PM

On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
> In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
>
>
> Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
>
>
> I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
>
>
> Which unit did it for you?

Richard
What about the performance of the vario to show lift-sink with the new technology
Does it deliver?
S6

Richard[_9_]

February 8th 13, 12:24 AM

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 3:13:05 PM UTC-8, s6 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote: > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time. > > > > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria. > > > > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical. > > > > Which unit did it for you? Richard What about the performance of the vario to show lift-sink with the new technology Does it deliver? S6

I don't know. The Butterfly Vario performs as well as a LX1606 or LXNAV V7 with more features.
I have heard that the pressure sensors on the new varios can read 1 cm of altitude a 100 times per second. I guess the question is can inertial sensors add much to this?

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Tobias Bieniek

February 8th 13, 12:40 AM

they might not add much to the vario functionality, but don't underestimate the advantage of having the wind measured 20 times per second too. the butterfly vario measures all environmental influences on the aircraft like lift/sink and horizontal wind, and in theory should be able to filter horizontal gusts better than a traditional vario.

Andrzej Kobus

February 8th 13, 01:39 AM

On Feb 7, 7:40*pm, Tobias Bieniek >
wrote:
> they might not add much to the vario functionality, but don't underestimate the advantage of having the wind measured 20 times per second too. the butterfly vario measures all environmental influences on the aircraft like lift/sink and horizontal wind, and in theory should be able to filter horizontal gusts better than a traditional vario.

Having hardware the right hardware is just a prerequisite knowing how
to process data from all these sensors to filter out gusts is the real
difficult part. It will probably take years before really good
solutions appear. These algorithms will become closely guarded secrets.

[email protected]

February 8th 13, 08:16 AM

Best performing vario I've used? Peschges VP-4E Nav. Not that it's an amazing vario, just that I haven't had a chance to spend much time with anything much more modern!

As is is I've been following this thread and others with interest as, if the pilots in my club decide to install PowerFLARM in all our gliders I'm pretty much going to have to update my vario to one which has the ability to display Flarm data (limited panel space and the desire to keep my mechanical vario and still have space for a transponder). So far the LX7007C basic combined with a PowerFLARM brick seems like the most likely option though I'm also considering many of the other setups talked about here. I despise using touch screens though so that kind of limits my options.

I'm trying not to think about the fact that by the time all this equipment is installed, wired and signed off I'll have just spent on my avionics a sum roughly equivalent to one quarter the likely market value of my glider!

kirk.stant

February 8th 13, 08:57 AM

On Thursday, February 7, 2013 7:07:12 PM UTC+1, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Why don't PNA developers emulate the Themi interface? Brighter screens should make that possible nowadays. Being able to get centering help via peripheral vision seems huge... especially if you're not the only one flying in a thermal.

SeeYouMobile has a similar function using a "beep" that you can set to tell you when you are approaching the heading to the strongest part of the thermal. Not sure if SYM includes the drift calculation that a Themi does, but in theory it should be a useful aid to shifting your circle - set it to beep when you should roll out momentarily.

But since I use a Themi, I rarely use my SYM thermal page - I find it takes too much heads down time for the value added. I prefer a climb map page zoomed in to show the climb track with dots, and some dedicated vario navboxes.

YMMV.

Kirk
66

February 8th 13, 01:21 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:13:05 AM UTC+2, s6 wrote:
> On Saturday, September 22, 2012 11:58:15 AM UTC-4, Craig R. wrote:
>
> > In your opinion, what was the best performing vario you have ever used? Specifically, the one that got you centered in and to the top of the thermal in the least amount of time.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Let's ignore products because they have the latest "bells and whistles" add ons, latest technology, sexy appearances, or best computer processor. Basic performance is the only criteria.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've heard some say the legacy Cambridge units and some say the Sage mechanical.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Which unit did it for you?
>
>
>
> Richard
>
> What about the performance of the vario to show lift-sink with the new technology
>
> Does it deliver?
>
> S6

After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.

kirk.stant

February 8th 13, 02:24 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:
> After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.

So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?

Kirk
66
Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century....

waremark

February 8th 13, 04:53 PM

How important is the setup? The electronic varios all offer numerous configuration options. How about sharing thoughts on how best to set them up? For example who uses smart filtering on an LX vario, what setting and why? (Except of course that smart filtering does different things on different versions of LX).

The best vario for you may be the one you know best with the setup you know best.

February 8th 13, 06:59 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:
>
> > After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.
>
>
>
> So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66
>
> Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century....

I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.

So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.

February 8th 13, 07:15 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:59:25 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Kirk
>
> >
>
> > 66
>
> >
>
> > Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century...
>
>
>
> I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.
>
>
>
> So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.

Hi
That's an opinion not a fact.
What makes the SR 940 the best?
S6

vontresc

February 8th 13, 08:15 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:15:06 PM UTC-6, s6 wrote:
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:59:25 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Kirk
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > 66
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> That's an opinion not a fact.
>
> What makes the SR 940 the best?
>
> S6

This thread reminds me of one of Jim Foreman's best stories...

http://www.jimforeman.com/Stories/varios.htm

Maybe I need to ditch that fancy Tasman and find me a pellet vario for the Ka-6.

Any recommendations for a good audio pellet vario out there? :-)

Pete

February 8th 13, 08:35 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 9:15:06 PM UTC+2, s6 wrote:
> On Friday, February 8, 2013 1:59:25 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 8, 2013 4:24:00 PM UTC+2, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Friday, February 8, 2013 2:21:45 PM UTC+1, rk wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > After reading this thread one can conclude that quality of variometer signal is of secondary importance to most glider pilots. There doesn't seem to be many posters who really can comment on variometer quality. Colour displays, flashing lights and dozens of useless features rule... It's a shame really.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > So, what is your definition of a quality variometer? A pellet vario will give you raw data, is that what you want? Come on, fess up, what gets you up best?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Kirk
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > 66
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Ilec SN10B, Westerboer VW910, Themi. Mechanicals are just so 20th century...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've flown Cambridge S-&L-NAV, WV910/920/921, VP-3,4 and 6, Zander SR-940&ZS-1, SDI C3, LX5000, LX7000, LX8000, LX160 (dozens-hundreds hours each) plus probably dozen other variometers for short flights.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> That's an opinion not a fact.
>
> What makes the SR 940 the best?
>
> S6

Yes of course it is my opinion. And dozens of other european top pilots'. Go to worlds and look at their cockpits.

SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze trough thermal at 200kph. Others are usually all around place.

I'm not into old technology, I just wan't to point out that new technology isn't always better, as it should. I hope that Butterfly and Clearnav get the vario part right. Probably they need to mature few more years as nowadays nothing seems to work as advertised right out of the product line.

son_of_flubber

February 8th 13, 09:51 PM

On Friday, February 8, 2013 3:35:32 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:

> SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze trough thermal at 200kph.

I have nothing to dispute. I just want to learn something.

I see that the ability to get an accurate reading at high horizontal velocity is a feature that distinguishes the best varios from the lesser varios. At what speed do lesser varios start to degrade? Is the degradation abrupt or gradual? Specific examples would be helpful.

Is there any other criteria where one modern vario is clearly better than another?

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

February 9th 13, 01:41 AM

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:51:52 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

> On Friday, February 8, 2013 3:35:32 PM UTC-5, rk wrote:
>
>> SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze
>> trough thermal at 200kph.
>
> I have nothing to dispute. I just want to learn something.
>
> I see that the ability to get an accurate reading at high horizontal
> velocity is a feature that distinguishes the best varios from the lesser
> varios. At what speed do lesser varios start to degrade? Is the
> degradation abrupt or gradual? Specific examples would be helpful.
>
> Is there any other criteria where one modern vario is clearly better
> than another?

Pass: confession time. I use relatively old varios and am happy with them.

I have an SDI C4 (running V4.06 firmware), a Borgelt B.40 and LK8000.

The C4 really needs a connection to a GPS that knows at least the next TP
or it loses its final glide and wind calculation abilities. Unfortunately
mine doesn't have a GPS connection at present, but I really like the
noises it makes when climbing and running between thermals and its
configuration is a good match on my glider's polar. Medium term plan is
to add a GPS feed (its wind and final glide calculations are good) but in
the interim LK8000 is handling these details well. I used to use a Garmin
GPS II+ which, when it had a waypoint selected, sent the C4 what it
needed to know to do a really good job on FG and wind. Now I run LK8000
for airspace awareness but the PNA it runs on has no connectivity for
outputting the NMEA sentences the C4 needs so I'm looking at LK8000 for FG
and wind. The C4 has a monochrome LCD display that's always easy to read
and has enough area and configuration options to show all the info you
need when you need it with little or no need to manually change the
display.

The B.40 is the fastest vario I've flown with and I love it! Its my
preferred instrument for locating a thermal but, once established I use
the C4 noises to keep centered. The B.40 is really my backup vario
because it has a 9v battery strapped to its back and so is a good get-me-
home device if/when the 12v batteries fail. Readability is not an issue
since it has a conventional needle and dial.

Other devices I like:

- the Tasman V1000. Several of our club gliders have this fitted.
It works well, makes nice noises and seems to be both fast and
accurate. It has a monochrome LCD display using blocks that move
round the edge to show instant climb rate and a digital average
climb rate displayed in the centre.

- the LX16 as a basic instrument. Has a fast, shockproof monochrome
display and makes very fast responding and informative noises.
Some of out club gliders have them fitted.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

February 9th 13, 01:49 AM

On Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:53:54 -0800, waremark wrote:

> How important is the setup? The electronic varios all offer numerous
> configuration options. How about sharing thoughts on how best to set
> them up? For example who uses smart filtering on an LX vario, what
> setting and why? (Except of course that smart filtering does different
> things on different versions of LX).
>
> The best vario for you may be the one you know best with the setup you
> know best.

Agreed. As I said above, I use an SDI C4. It allows you to set both the
info you need to see in each stage of the flight (cruise, climb, after
leaving the thermal) and how it should switch between cruise and climb
mode (choice of manual, speed and GPS-detected thermal turn). I use
speed. It has different speeds for cruise->climb and climb->cruise and,
after tuning it to my glider and flying style, I find its usually in the
mode I want, i.e. I don't need to touch it or change airspeed to put it
in the mode I want.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Ian[_2_]

February 9th 13, 07:30 AM

On 08/02/2013 22:35, rk wrote:

>>> So far the best electrical variometer has been good old Zander SR940 (yes better than ZS1), which I've used in 3 different gliders for over 500 hrs. Every other system is a league below SR, including all the new LX varios (both facctories), which is worrying since I believe they have majority of new computer market these days.

>> What makes the SR 940 the best?

> SR is only variometer that can show what is happening when you blaze trough thermal at 200kph. Others are usually all around place.

My answer to this question is Zander SR800. I have about 800 hours in
two gliders with that vario.

My motivation is the same as yours. When the pointer read 2.5m/s flying
through a thermal, you could stop, centre and expect to achieve 2.5m/s
on the averager.

(Zander's meters were bigger than than those used by other instrument
makers. When I had 2.5m/s on the averager, the Cambridge pilots reported
3m/s, climbing at the same speed in the same thermal).

I am not sure if this had anything to do with the electronics but more
to do with the plumbing. The SR800 uses a capacity flask not direct
pressure readings. I think all of the modern devices use direct pressure
measurement and need fancy digital filtering to get the same needle
movement as a capacity system.

My last SR800 has long since died. I now have a B500 and XCSoar etc. The
B500 is a touch disappointing compared to the SR800, but once again I
think the plumbing is to blame as it is a pressure device sharing the
compensation probe with a Winter mechanical (flask) device.

Now I listen to the B500, I look at the winter mechanical if I want to
see a needle and I use the bug trail on XCSoar for thermal centering
intelligence and wind speed/direction into.

But I think I get the best thermalling performance by looking out of the
window and flying the glider. The airframe communicates as well at the
electronics and audio provides reassurance. It is the most fun too!

Ian

February 9th 13, 12:20 PM

perjantai, 8. helmikuuta 2013 23.51.52 UTC+2 son_of_flubber kirjoitti:
>
> Is there any other criteria where one modern vario is clearly better than another?

Yes, I think there is several actually.

- accuracy of variometer reading. When you turn in steady thermal and your vario average is same as whole thermal average from other source, you know that systematic error is pretty much zero. Many variometers are very optimistic.

- accuracy and sensitivity in high total energy situations. Going through 2m/s thermal at 200kph and variometer says "2 m/s" (relative netto) is surprisingly hard thing to achieve. I think this is the part where modern acceleration/gyro sensors could improve things.

- fast response speed combined with good gust filtering. If you thermal 1 m/s and suddenly hit 3 m/s, your variometer should give fast reading of 1 -> 3m/s. Usually it is too slow reaction, or it is very fast reading of 1 -> 5 -> 4 -> 3 m/s. Other problematic spot is hitting a bad spot while thermalling. Variometers tend to be better at telling you climb rate is improving than vice versa. This is true for mechanical variometers also, so there might be a mechanical reason for it. Often your feeling is that you are out of the core, but variometers are still showing good climb rate.

- very good centering aid. This works really well in SR940&ZS1, and is fully configurable. Great thing to have if you are scraping in that last bubble after 7 hrs fligth. Once you get used to it, you wouldn't live without it.

[email protected]

February 9th 13, 12:40 PM

My thoughts on the Tasman V1000. Three years ago I was new to soaring and updating an original condition Cirrus. I purchased the Tasman because it was modern and in my price range. I like the vario and the sounds it makes. I like the battery voltage feature. I like the averager. What I don't like is the rate of climb depiction via LCD segments. I find the needle on my mechanical Winter is easier to see at a glance. I can honestly say I have not used the Tasman "instantaneous rate" depiction since I installed it. It goes back to the analog versus digital argument among car manufacturers.. The digital dashboard didn't last very long.

For this reason and a few others I am awaiting my new LXNav V7.

The Borgelt B40's in two of our club gliders seem to be excellent varios despite their age.

I do like varios that have a dead band in the center. Those long final glides sure are nice in a quite cockpit.

Lane

Tony[_5_]

February 9th 13, 01:43 PM

On Saturday, February 9, 2013 6:40:35 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> My thoughts on the Tasman V1000. Three years ago I was new to soaring and updating an original condition Cirrus. I purchased the Tasman because it was modern and in my price range. I like the vario and the sounds it makes. I like the battery voltage feature. I like the averager. What I don't like is the rate of climb depiction via LCD segments. I find the needle on my mechanical Winter is easier to see at a glance. I can honestly say I have not used the Tasman "instantaneous rate" depiction since I installed it. It goes back to the analog versus digital argument among car manufacturers. The digital dashboard didn't last very long.
>
>
>
> For this reason and a few others I am awaiting my new LXNav V7.
>
>
>
> The Borgelt B40's in two of our club gliders seem to be excellent varios despite their age.
>
>
>
> I do like varios that have a dead band in the center. Those long final glides sure are nice in a quite cockpit.
>
>
>
> Lane

Lane I put an LX16 in the Cherokee a few years ago and have found that i don't really look at it that much either, probably for the same reason and that my trusty old Winter is top center on the panel. I do like the audio though and the average display.

In general my favorite vario at any given time is whatever one is showing up. the more up the better :)

This year i started flying with a few B40's and like them.

pete maybe we need to install a whistle or reed or something in the line from the flask to the pellet vario :)

Alexander Swagemakers[_2_]

February 9th 13, 10:45 PM

So far I have enjoyed the best results with a Zander ZS1 and Peschges VP4. I would not recommend LX5000 and LX7000 from my experience. LX8000 is better than its predecessors but earns its merits more from the fancy stuff than the vario.

The quality of the vario depends mainly on the quality of your TE probe, static port and tubing. Most people like and get the best results from a vario they are used to. On this basis its hard to find a best performing vario.

February 10th 13, 03:49 PM

On Sunday, February 10, 2013 12:45:37 AM UTC+2, Alexander Swagemakers wrote:
> So far I have enjoyed the best results with a Zander ZS1 and Peschges VP4.. I would not recommend LX5000 and LX7000 from my experience. LX8000 is better than its predecessors but earns its merits more from the fancy stuff than the vario.
>
>
>
> The quality of the vario depends mainly on the quality of your TE probe, static port and tubing. Most people like and get the best results from a vario they are used to. On this basis its hard to find a best performing vario.

That's true, especially for older gliders with sometimes shabby TE compensation systems. Modern generation, say gliders less than 20 years old, have quite good static systems that deliver consistent performance. I flew Zander SR in LS8, Discus-2, Ventus-2 and DuoDiscus, all of them with excellent results. VP4 in LS8 was ok but nothing special, IMHO.

Peter F[_2_]

February 11th 13, 10:13 AM

The advice given by a UK former multiple world champion was to have a
simple vario with well sorted TE. Then to spend the balance on Aerotows.

Speed to fly is simple, for an unballasted Discus either fly at 80kts or
55kts.

PF

At 15:49 10 February 2013, rk wrote:
>On Sunday, February 10, 2013 12:45:37 AM UTC+2, Alexander Swagemakers
>wrote=
>:
>> So far I have enjoyed the best results with a Zander ZS1 and Peschges
>VP4=
>.. I would not recommend LX5000 and LX7000 from my experience. LX8000 is
>bet=
>ter than its predecessors but earns its merits more from the fancy stuff
>th=
>an the vario.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The quality of the vario depends mainly on the quality of your TE
probe,
>=
>static port and tubing. Most people like and get the best results from a
>va=
>rio they are used to. On this basis its hard to find a best performing
>vari=
>o.
>
>
>That's true, especially for older gliders with sometimes shabby TE
>compensa=
>tion systems. Modern generation, say gliders less than 20 years old, have
>q=
>uite good static systems that deliver consistent performance. I flew
>Zander=
> SR in LS8, Discus-2, Ventus-2 and DuoDiscus, all of them with excellent
>re=
>sults. VP4 in LS8 was ok but nothing special, IMHO.
>

waremark

February 11th 13, 12:22 PM

A pilot with the skills to be a world champion does not need much help from a vario. Some of us do,sadly! Having said that, I appreciate that what matters is that the vario produces good basic info rather than having more bells and whistles. At the moment from this thread there does not seem to be agreement about whether or not the latest devices which have the best bells and whistles also give the best basic info.

Tobias Bieniek

February 11th 13, 11:01 PM

I think the problem is simply that these characteristics of the varios can not (or at least are not) measured that easily and all you will hear from the pilots are subjective views. In theory an inertially compensated vario like from Butterfly should be best, but I guess it really depends on the pilot and his familiarity with the vario. Just like when you fly a new glider you will also need a bit of time to get used to a new vario.

waremark

February 13th 13, 12:36 AM

"In theory an inertially compensated vario like from Butterfly should be best,"

It all depends on the software. I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed software to take full advantage of the sophisticated sensors to provide better information to the pilot. I have been told that the LX varios V5/V7 have similar sensors to the Butterfly but that the current firmware does not take advantage of them.

February 13th 13, 06:11 AM

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:36:45 AM UTC+2, waremark wrote:
> "In theory an inertially compensated vario like from Butterfly should be best,"
>
>
>
> It all depends on the software. I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed software to take full advantage of the sophisticated sensors to provide better information to the pilot. I have been told that the LX varios V5/V7 have similar sensors to the Butterfly but that the current firmware does not take advantage of them.

I highly doubt that V5/V7 have magnetometer sensor or rate gyros, probably only acceleration sensors. Why would they sell rate gyro box as optional unit for LX8000/9000 if it is already built inside V5? LX Nav has been having so much problems with V7 firmware over couple of years that I'm not surprised at all if they can't use any of the fancy sensors.

Tobias Bieniek

February 13th 13, 09:44 AM

> I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed software to take full advantage of the sophisticated sensors to provide better information to the pilot.

Then you should have a closer look at the Butterfly vario. Some friends of mine fly with that device and once it is fitted in and calibrated properly it seems to work quite well. Without having a software that takes advantage of these sensors it wouldn't be possible to measure the current wind 20 times per second...

The ClearNav vario has the same sensor, but from what I have been told it is indeed not using them yet. The LX devices only have acceleration sensors AFAIK.

pcool

February 13th 13, 01:29 PM

There are not many comments or reviews about this futuristic and advanced
Butterfly vario "the golden vario" (given the price..).
Do you have any more details? In theory it should combine using vertical
acceleration with baro to feel lifts like we do with out sophisticated and
trained bottoms.

the wind measured 20 times a second does not impress me. In the end it
should be averaged to 5-10 seconds to be of any use, otherwise you just read
out gusts.
Accuracy , i think, will be great.. but for that price!!
But that's the future I think.

"Tobias Bieniek" wrote in message
...

> I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed software to take full
> advantage of the sophisticated sensors to provide better information to
> the pilot.

Then you should have a closer look at the Butterfly vario. Some friends of
mine fly with that device and once it is fitted in and calibrated properly
it seems to work quite well. Without having a software that takes advantage
of these sensors it wouldn't be possible to measure the current wind 20
times per second...

The ClearNav vario has the same sensor, but from what I have been told it is
indeed not using them yet. The LX devices only have acceleration sensors
AFAIK.

Dan Marotta

February 13th 13, 04:04 PM

This reminds me of the old adage I learned in the Air Force: "Measure with
a micrometer, mark with a grease pencil, cut with an axe."

Seriously - 20 samples per second? Engineers put men on the moon with slide
rules. You just don't need the kind of accuracy being touted these days.

"pcool" > wrote in message
...
> There are not many comments or reviews about this futuristic and advanced
> Butterfly vario "the golden vario" (given the price..).
> Do you have any more details? In theory it should combine using vertical
> acceleration with baro to feel lifts like we do with out sophisticated and
> trained bottoms.
>
> the wind measured 20 times a second does not impress me. In the end it
> should be averaged to 5-10 seconds to be of any use, otherwise you just
> read out gusts.
> Accuracy , i think, will be great.. but for that price!!
> But that's the future I think.
>
> "Tobias Bieniek" wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I am not convinced that anyone has yet developed software to take full
>> advantage of the sophisticated sensors to provide better information to
>> the pilot.
>
> Then you should have a closer look at the Butterfly vario. Some friends of
> mine fly with that device and once it is fitted in and calibrated properly
> it seems to work quite well. Without having a software that takes
> advantage of these sensors it wouldn't be possible to measure the current
> wind 20 times per second...
>
> The ClearNav vario has the same sensor, but from what I have been told it
> is indeed not using them yet. The LX devices only have acceleration
> sensors AFAIK.

son_of_flubber

February 13th 13, 05:03 PM

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:04:18 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

> Seriously - 20 samples per second?

Seems like it would be pretty hard to get a good digital discrete measurement in turbulence.

Maybe you need a large number of samples to get a statistical valid measurement? Take 100 samples, throw out the outliers, munge the rest. Run calculation on a high confidence number.

Tobias Bieniek

February 13th 13, 05:08 PM

well since I did my master thesis for Butterfly I have a bit of insight, did it on another topic/product though ;)

the hardware consists of a few pressure sensors (static, total, TE), 3D acceleration, 3D angular rate (gyro) and 3D magnetic sensors and a GPS chip. all that data is measured at a high rate and precision and is then filtered by an advanced algorithm which I guess is some form of Kalman filter.

this filter is able to filter out horizontal gusts because it knows about the exact position, orientation and velocity of your aircraft in space. a side product from that is the artificial horizon feature and the option to measure the wind effect on your aircraft at a high rate. as far as I know it shows you a tactile wind, that is averaged over a few minutes, and a direct wind, which is the actual current wind.

yes, the vario is pretty expensive. it has been in development for quite some time and from what I have heard the creator of the SR940 and Zander ZS1 was also involved in the development process.

on thing to mention is that the vario needs to be mounted very carefully. with such a high precision hardware you want to avoid having the radio speaker with it's magnetic influences right next to the sensor box for example. there were some initial complains about the vario not working right, but from what I have heard most of that was due to bad installation. the same would also apply for the ClearNav vario once they start to actually use these kinds of sensors.

for more information you should probably contact Butterfly directly

Roel Baardman

February 13th 13, 05:11 PM

> on thing to mention is that the vario needs to be mounted very carefully. w
> ith such a high precision hardware you want to avoid having the radio speak
> er with it's magnetic influences right next to the sensor box for example.
> there were some initial complains about the vario not working right, but fr
> om what I have heard most of that was due to bad installation. the same wou
> ld also apply for the ClearNav vario once they start to actually use these
> kinds of sensors.

I say: time for avionics compartments (re-use the motor-closures for this if there's nothing in?).
One could mount sensors, RF equipment (radio, transponder) in here properly and have proper access.

Roel Baardman

February 13th 13, 05:16 PM

> Seriously - 20 samples per second? Engineers put men on the moon with slide rules. You just don't need the kind of accuracy being touted these days.

The sensors used are not that well-behaved. Not very linear, noisy, etc. So you might actually need that 20Hz to produce a proper value at 1Hz. Many noisy measurements average
out as one pretty good measurement. This has even been proven, by letting 1000 people guess the number of balls in a fish bowl. The average was spot-on.

Also, fast sampling allows one to do all kinds of filtering in software which required analogue filters in the past.

waremark

February 13th 13, 05:34 PM

What I have read on this forum has led me to think that the Butterfly is currently a decent vario in operation but nothing special. Can anyone with practical experience say different?

I surmise that the software engineers have not yet discovered what to do with all the data available to them.

Since my LX 9000 has the optional giro box what data would it not have that would potentially make the Butterfly better?

John Galloway[_1_]

February 13th 13, 09:33 PM

At 17:34 13 February 2013, waremark wrote:
>What I have read on this forum has led me to think that the
Butterfly is
>currently a decent vario in operation but nothing special. Can
anyone with
>practical experience say different?
>
>I surmise that the software engineers have not yet discovered
what to do
>with all the data available to them.
>
>Since my LX 9000 has the optional giro box what data would it
not have that
>would potentially make the Butterfly better?

The very alluring Butterfly vario is using the sensor data but the
concern that has stopped me choosing it so far is the
importance for its performance of getting an accurate reading
from the magnetometer. It is inside the main sensor box which
has all the electrical and pneumatic connections and that makes
it awkward to mount in a way that meets the installation
manual's specifications for distance from electromagnetic field
interference - especially in a retractable motor glider. Two
friends have returned them because theye were unable to
achieve this.

I have the same worry about getting the similarly configured CN
vario for the same reason - although it doesn't matter at
present while the magnetometer is not used (AFAIK).

The LX 9000 AHRS unit has "3 axis Gyros with MEMS technology
and 3 axis digital +-6g accelerometer" according to the
website. If the separate LX 9000 compass module is 3-axis(??)
then including that along with the GPS in the 9000 and the
pneumatic sensors from the V5 vario would appear to make it
match the sensor mix of the Butterfly. Whether they could all
be integrated to work as a full intertial sensor unit I have no
idea - nor whether LX Nav have any plan to try to make it do
so. The fact that the magnetometer is a separate box should
make it easier to locate away from interference.

John Galloway

February 13th 13, 10:04 PM

On Wednesday, February 13, 2013 11:33:57 PM UTC+2, John Galloway wrote:
> At 17:34 13 February 2013, waremark wrote:
>
> >What I have read on this forum has led me to think that the
>
> Butterfly is
>
> >currently a decent vario in operation but nothing special. Can
>
> anyone with
>
> >practical experience say different?
>
> >
>
> >I surmise that the software engineers have not yet discovered
>
> what to do
>
> >with all the data available to them.
>
> >
>
> >Since my LX 9000 has the optional giro box what data would it
>
> not have that
>
> >would potentially make the Butterfly better?
>
>
>
> The very alluring Butterfly vario is using the sensor data but the
>
> concern that has stopped me choosing it so far is the
>
> importance for its performance of getting an accurate reading
>
> from the magnetometer. It is inside the main sensor box which
>
> has all the electrical and pneumatic connections and that makes
>
> it awkward to mount in a way that meets the installation
>
> manual's specifications for distance from electromagnetic field
>
> interference - especially in a retractable motor glider. Two
>
> friends have returned them because theye were unable to
>
> achieve this.
>
>
>
> I have the same worry about getting the similarly configured CN
>
> vario for the same reason - although it doesn't matter at
>
> present while the magnetometer is not used (AFAIK).
>
>
>
> The LX 9000 AHRS unit has "3 axis Gyros with MEMS technology
>
> and 3 axis digital +-6g accelerometer" according to the
>
> website. If the separate LX 9000 compass module is 3-axis(??)
>
> then including that along with the GPS in the 9000 and the
>
> pneumatic sensors from the V5 vario would appear to make it
>
> match the sensor mix of the Butterfly. Whether they could all
>
> be integrated to work as a full intertial sensor unit I have no
>
> idea - nor whether LX Nav have any plan to try to make it do
>
> so. The fact that the magnetometer is a separate box should
>
> make it easier to locate away from interference.
>
>
>
> John Galloway

I thought exactly same about placement of Butterfly IMU. Separate magnetometer would be more convenient, as you have to route GPS antenna, three pneumatic tubes and CAN-bus to the box. AFAIK succesful installation requires quite a distance from *everything*. BTW common radio speakers don't have any magnetic shielding around speaker magnet, for some reason. Strong magnets can disturb compass as far as 1,5 metres away...

[email protected]

February 13th 13, 10:58 PM

If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did read out 3 d wind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not only could you detect lift long before F = MA gets the glider moving upward, you could tell upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts. Dynamic soaring might even become possible, or at least better energy extraction from gusts. Even the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that we're all waiting on the software development.

John Cochrane

February 14th 13, 06:32 AM

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 12:58:13 AM UTC+2, wrote:
> If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did read out 3 d wind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not only could you detect lift long before F = MA gets the glider moving upward, you could tell upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts. Dynamic soaring might even become possible, or at least better energy extraction from gusts. Even the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that we're all waiting on the software development.
>
>
>
> John Cochrane

I believe the inertial system needs to sort out the F=MA part before solving 3D-wind. Gyros and acceleration sensors don't measure vertical wind, they measure glider vertical movement.

John Galloway[_1_]

February 14th 13, 09:49 PM

At 22:58 13 February 2013, wrote:
>If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did read
out 3 d
>w=
>ind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not
only could you
>de=
>tect lift long before F =3D MA gets the glider moving upward,
you could
>tel=
>l upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts.
Dynamic soaring
>might=
> even become possible, or at least better energy extraction
from gusts.
>Eve=
>n the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that
we're all
>waitin=
>g on the software development.=20
>
>John Cochrane

Regarding gusts, the Butterfly website (in FAQ) already claims:

"A conventional variometer uses changes in air pressure (TE-
pressure, static- and total-pressure) to determine energy
changes the aircraft experiences. Butterfly Vario does the same.
Additionally it uses an inertial sensing platform that allows for
real-time determination of airmass-movement and realtime
determination of wind. With this technology a pilot can judge
the difference between gust induced energy changes and
thermal induced energy changes."

John Galloway

Andrzej Kobus

February 14th 13, 10:15 PM

On Feb 14, 4:49*pm, John Galloway > wrote:
> At 22:58 13 February 2013, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did read
> out 3 d
> >w=
> >ind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not
> only could you
> >de=
> >tect lift long before F =3D MA gets the glider moving upward,
> you could
> >tel=
> >l upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts.
> Dynamic soaring
> >might=
> > even become possible, or at least better energy extraction
> from gusts.
> >Eve=
> >n the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that
> we're all
> >waitin=
> >g on the software development.=20
>
> >John Cochrane
>
> Regarding gusts, the Butterfly website (in FAQ) *already claims:
>
> "A conventional variometer uses changes in air pressure (TE-
> pressure, static- and total-pressure) to determine energy
> changes the aircraft experiences. Butterfly Vario does the same.
> Additionally it uses an inertial sensing platform that allows for
> real-time determination of airmass-movement and realtime
> determination of wind. With this technology a pilot can judge
> the difference between gust induced energy changes and
> thermal induced energy changes."
>
> John Galloway

The Butterfly vario does not filter out gusts. The other sensors are
used only to drive the blue ball that shows air mass movement. The
pilot responsibility is to put the two together and decide what is a
gust and what is lift based on the two sources of information. It is
not a bad solution as one can learn the vario behavior. If algorithms
are used to filter out gusts a pilot might have a difficult time to
learn the vario behavior or understand what it is showing as an
algorithm may have many paths covering many different scenarios
behaving differently in different situations. Of course if algorithm
is perfect that would not be a problem, but this is not an easy
problem to solve. I assume it will be years before this happen mainly
to extensive testing/feedback process that is required to develop and
test these kinds of algorithms what works in theory might not be good
in practice. So for the near future approach that Butterfly took is a
good one, we need to see in practice how workable it will be.

Kimmo Hytoenen

February 14th 13, 10:19 PM

After Argentina some competition pilots were quite disappointed
with the new variometers using acceleration to calculate lift. I
have not tested myself, just telling their opinion.

At 21:49 14 February 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>At 22:58 13 February 2013, wrote:
>>If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did
read
>out 3 d
>>w=
>>ind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not
>only could you
>>de=
>>tect lift long before F =3D MA gets the glider moving upward,
>you could
>>tel=
>>l upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts.
>Dynamic soaring
>>might=
>> even become possible, or at least better energy extraction
>from gusts.
>>Eve=
>>n the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that
>we're all
>>waitin=
>>g on the software development.=20
>>
>>John Cochrane
>
>Regarding gusts, the Butterfly website (in FAQ) already claims:
>
>"A conventional variometer uses changes in air pressure (TE-
>pressure, static- and total-pressure) to determine energy
>changes the aircraft experiences. Butterfly Vario does the
same.
>Additionally it uses an inertial sensing platform that allows for
>real-time determination of airmass-movement and realtime
>determination of wind. With this technology a pilot can judge
>the difference between gust induced energy changes and
>thermal induced energy changes."
>
>John Galloway
>
>

Bill D

February 15th 13, 12:24 AM

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:19:21 PM UTC-7, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
> After Argentina some competition pilots were quite disappointed
>
> with the new variometers using acceleration to calculate lift. I
>
> have not tested myself, just telling their opinion.
>
>
>
> At 21:49 14 February 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>
>
> >>If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did
>
> read
>
> >out 3 d
>
> >>w=
>
> >>ind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not
>
> >only could you
>
> >>de=
>
> >>tect lift long before F =3D MA gets the glider moving upward,
>
> >you could
>
> >>tel=
>
> >>l upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts.
>
> >Dynamic soaring
>
> >>might=
>
> >> even become possible, or at least better energy extraction
>
> >from gusts.
>
> >>Eve=
>
> >>n the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that
>
> >we're all
>
> >>waitin=
>
> >>g on the software development.=20
>
> >>
>
> >>John Cochrane
>
> >
>
> >Regarding gusts, the Butterfly website (in FAQ) already claims:
>
> >
>
> >"A conventional variometer uses changes in air pressure (TE-
>
> >pressure, static- and total-pressure) to determine energy
>
> >changes the aircraft experiences. Butterfly Vario does the
>
> same.
>
> >Additionally it uses an inertial sensing platform that allows for
>
> >real-time determination of airmass-movement and realtime
>
> >determination of wind. With this technology a pilot can judge
>
> >the difference between gust induced energy changes and
>
> >thermal induced energy changes."
>
> >
>
> >John Galloway
>
> >
>
> >

Not sure, but I suspect they are mixing frames of reference. In theory, the way to do this is solve the TE equations in the inertial and air-data domains separately then compare them. A gust will show up strongly in the air-data but less so in the inertial data so a computer - or a pilot - can tell the difference.

A purely inertial vario will require a full IMU with GPS updating. These things are probably still too expensive for sailplanes but only just.

SoaringXCellence

February 21st 13, 01:03 AM

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 4:24:54 PM UTC-8, Bill D wrote:
> On Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:19:21 PM UTC-7, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
>
> > After Argentina some competition pilots were quite disappointed
>
> >
>
> > with the new variometers using acceleration to calculate lift. I
>
> >
>
> > have not tested myself, just telling their opinion.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > At 21:49 14 February 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >>If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did
>
> >
>
> > read
>
> >
>
> > >out 3 d
>
> >
>
> > >>w=
>
> >
>
> > >>ind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not
>
> >
>
> > >only could you
>
> >
>
> > >>de=
>
> >
>
> > >>tect lift long before F =3D MA gets the glider moving upward,
>
> >
>
> > >you could
>
> >
>
> > >>tel=
>
> >
>
> > >>l upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts.
>
> >
>
> > >Dynamic soaring
>
> >
>
> > >>might=
>
> >
>
> > >> even become possible, or at least better energy extraction
>
> >
>
> > >from gusts.
>
> >
>
> > >>Eve=
>
> >
>
> > >>n the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that
>
> >
>
> > >we're all
>
> >
>
> > >>waitin=
>
> >
>
> > >>g on the software development.=20
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>John Cochrane
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >Regarding gusts, the Butterfly website (in FAQ) already claims:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >"A conventional variometer uses changes in air pressure (TE-
>
> >
>
> > >pressure, static- and total-pressure) to determine energy
>
> >
>
> > >changes the aircraft experiences. Butterfly Vario does the
>
> >
>
> > same.
>
> >
>
> > >Additionally it uses an inertial sensing platform that allows for
>
> >
>
> > >real-time determination of airmass-movement and realtime
>
> >
>
> > >determination of wind. With this technology a pilot can judge
>
> >
>
> > >the difference between gust induced energy changes and
>
> >
>
> > >thermal induced energy changes."
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >John Galloway
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
>
>
> Not sure, but I suspect they are mixing frames of reference. In theory, the way to do this is solve the TE equations in the inertial and air-data domains separately then compare them. A gust will show up strongly in the air-data but less so in the inertial data so a computer - or a pilot - can tell the difference.
>
>
>
> A purely inertial vario will require a full IMU with GPS updating. These things are probably still too expensive for sailplanes but only just.

If we have some EE guys here, SparkFun electronics offers several IMU sensor system under $150: https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/160

SoaringXCellence

February 21st 13, 01:04 AM

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 4:24:54 PM UTC-8, Bill D wrote:
> On Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:19:21 PM UTC-7, Kimmo Hytoenen wrote:
>
> > After Argentina some competition pilots were quite disappointed
>
> >
>
> > with the new variometers using acceleration to calculate lift. I
>
> >
>
> > have not tested myself, just telling their opinion.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > At 21:49 14 February 2013, John Galloway wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >>If the butterfly -- or clearnav, with future software -- did
>
> >
>
> > read
>
> >
>
> > >out 3 d
>
> >
>
> > >>w=
>
> >
>
> > >>ind 20 times a second, this would be a big advantage. Not
>
> >
>
> > >only could you
>
> >
>
> > >>de=
>
> >
>
> > >>tect lift long before F =3D MA gets the glider moving upward,
>
> >
>
> > >you could
>
> >
>
> > >>tel=
>
> >
>
> > >>l upward gusts from forward gusts and sideways gusts.
>
> >
>
> > >Dynamic soaring
>
> >
>
> > >>might=
>
> >
>
> > >> even become possible, or at least better energy extraction
>
> >
>
> > >from gusts.
>
> >
>
> > >>Eve=
>
> >
>
> > >>n the 302 has the necessary sensors, my impression is that
>
> >
>
> > >we're all
>
> >
>
> > >>waitin=
>
> >
>
> > >>g on the software development.=20
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>John Cochrane
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >Regarding gusts, the Butterfly website (in FAQ) already claims:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >"A conventional variometer uses changes in air pressure (TE-
>
> >
>
> > >pressure, static- and total-pressure) to determine energy
>
> >
>
> > >changes the aircraft experiences. Butterfly Vario does the
>
> >
>
> > same.
>
> >
>
> > >Additionally it uses an inertial sensing platform that allows for
>
> >
>
> > >real-time determination of airmass-movement and realtime
>
> >
>
> > >determination of wind. With this technology a pilot can judge
>
> >
>
> > >the difference between gust induced energy changes and
>
> >
>
> > >thermal induced energy changes."
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >John Galloway
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
>
>
> Not sure, but I suspect they are mixing frames of reference. In theory, the way to do this is solve the TE equations in the inertial and air-data domains separately then compare them. A gust will show up strongly in the air-data but less so in the inertial data so a computer - or a pilot - can tell the difference.
>
>
>
> A purely inertial vario will require a full IMU with GPS updating. These things are probably still too expensive for sailplanes but only just.

Sparkfun has several IMU systems under $150: https://www.sparkfun.com/categories/160