renter/lease insurance question

[Frederick Wilson]

As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter insurance?

What are the pro's and con's?

Where would one get such coverage?

Thanks,
Fred

[Peter R.]

Frederick Wilson wrote:

> As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter insurance?

Yes. The FBO's insurance policy protect them, not you. It is possible
that the insurance company, after paying the claim, will come after you
for money they spent repairing any damage.

Furthermore, there is also the issue of liability. Who is going to be
on your side when a property owner or other ground-based recipient of
your aircraft comes knocking on your door with a lawsuit. Not the FBO's
insurance company.

> What are the pro's and con's?

I can't think of any cons. Like any policy, the pros are that you will
sleep better and fly with less distractions. :)

> Where would one get such coverage?

When I rented, I purchased a good policy from Avemco. I believe I paid
about $350 for the year. Prices will be different depending on the
varying values of liability and hull value of the aircraft.

http://www.avemco.com

--
Peter










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[Cub Driver]

>As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter insurance?

Yes. Your airport may not require insurance (mine does) but always
remember that the airport or FBO is insuring itself and doesn't care a
hoot about you.

It might come after you for the deductible (probably not a big
matter). Someone you injure might decide to sue you, as well as the
airport. Etc.

I pay a bit less than $600 a year for a million-dollar liability
policy, $25,000 hull insurance. You can ask the FBO for leads.

AOPA has an insurance broker. I buy mine from a private insurance
agency that represents AIG.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Frederick Wilson]

Almost makes me scared to fly.

How does flight time factor into this. Where I guess I am most concerned is
that I am over 1200hrs in helicopters but only around 200 in fixed wing.

Or look at it this way, Comm IA in rotorcraft and PP-ASEL.

I know I know! I should get my IA and Comm in airplane but I have not seen
the justification yet. Although it is a small dream to be a CFI one day but
that does not fit the schedule right now.

Fred


"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Frederick Wilson wrote:
>
> > As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter
insurance?
>
> Yes. The FBO's insurance policy protect them, not you. It is possible
> that the insurance company, after paying the claim, will come after you
> for money they spent repairing any damage.
>
> Furthermore, there is also the issue of liability. Who is going to be
> on your side when a property owner or other ground-based recipient of
> your aircraft comes knocking on your door with a lawsuit. Not the FBO's
> insurance company.
>
> > What are the pro's and con's?
>
> I can't think of any cons. Like any policy, the pros are that you will
> sleep better and fly with less distractions. :)
>
> > Where would one get such coverage?
>
> When I rented, I purchased a good policy from Avemco. I believe I paid
> about $350 for the year. Prices will be different depending on the
> varying values of liability and hull value of the aircraft.
>
> http://www.avemco.com
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Frederick Wilson]

So what happens after a Million Dollars.

You know folks can be mighty greedy.

Fred


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter
insurance?
>
> Yes. Your airport may not require insurance (mine does) but always
> remember that the airport or FBO is insuring itself and doesn't care a
> hoot about you.
>
> It might come after you for the deductible (probably not a big
> matter). Someone you injure might decide to sue you, as well as the
> airport. Etc.
>
> I pay a bit less than $600 a year for a million-dollar liability
> policy, $25,000 hull insurance. You can ask the FBO for leads.
>
> AOPA has an insurance broker. I buy mine from a private insurance
> agency that represents AIG.
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Robert M. Gary]

Peter R. > wrote in message >...
> Frederick Wilson wrote:
>
> > As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter insurance?
>
> Yes. The FBO's insurance policy protect them, not you. It is possible
> that the insurance company, after paying the claim, will come after you
> for money they spent repairing any damage.

Although is about as likely as being hit by lightening. My broker has
been insuring FBOs for 30 years and has never had this happen with any
of his clients.

> > What are the pro's and con's?
>
> I can't think of any cons. Like any policy, the pros are that you will
> sleep better and fly with less distractions. :)

Just like any decision you must do a cost/benefit analysis. Certainly,
it is not worth the premium for some students. If your FBO has full
hull and you have limited assets, what are you trying to protect with
a renter's policy???


> > Where would one get such coverage?
>
> When I rented, I purchased a good policy from Avemco. I believe I paid
> about $350 for the year. Prices will be different depending on the
> varying values of liability and hull value of the aircraft.

It is a very rare case where you will need to insure the hull value of
the aircraft. You are usually looking at what the insurance does not
cover. Things like deductable, lose of use, etc. Check the FBOs policy
to see what part of the hull they do not cover. If the FBO is stupid
enough to not buy hull and mistaken enough to think that having
renters buy renters insurance to replace the airplane, they will
eventuall lose their shirts anyway.

[Frederick Wilson]

Trust me I am not worth much monetarily. I would like to think I am worth a
lot the wife and kids. This of course is from a person who finds most
enjoyment from flying around to see the leaves change color in the fall or
the occasional fly ins.

Fred


"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Frederick Wilson" >
>
> >So what happens after a Million Dollars.
> >
> >You know folks can be mighty greedy.
> >
> >Fred
>
> Have the plaintiff killed. Only costs about a grand to get some inner city
punk to
> take care of the problem. <g>
>
> But seriously...... you're screwed. If you're worth... say ...a house and
a $50k salary,
> an attorney will probably settle for the million. But if you're worth a
few million....well....
> get a good lawyer 'cause you're a target with $$ as the bullseye. Or refer
back to my
> first suggestion.
>
>
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
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>

[Peter R.]

Frederick Wilson ) wrote:

> Almost makes me scared to fly.

Ah, these days there is liability from the moment we step outside of
our houses. More and more people are looking for the quick, free money
and an opportunity to sue someone is the golden ring. Flying is but one
of many activities where we place our neck on the chopping block of
litigation.

That's why we carry home owners, auto, umbrella, and business policies, or
so the insurance company would like to have us believe! :)

Use your fear to remain proficient!

> How does flight time factor into this. Where I guess I am most concerned is
> that I am over 1200hrs in helicopters but only around 200 in fixed wing.

I don't think it does. I was able to get a renter's policy from Avemco
with a mere 80 hours and a freshly printed private pilot certificate.

--
Peter












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[Peter R.]

Robert M. Gary ) wrote:

> If your FBO has full hull and you have limited assets, what are
> you trying to protect with a renter's policy???

Future earnings?

--
Peter












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[MRQB]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Robert M. Gary ) wrote:
>
> > If your FBO has full hull and you have limited assets, what are
> > you trying to protect with a renter's policy???
>
> Future earnings?

Yea for the next 7 to 10 years!


>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[MRQB]

"Frederick Wilson" > wrote in message
news:OoaNb.50172$nt4.83107@attbi_s51...
> So what happens after a Million Dollars.
>
> You know folks can be mighty greedy.
>
> Fred


Bankruptcy Happens believe it is chapter 7


>
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > >As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter
> insurance?
> >
> > Yes. Your airport may not require insurance (mine does) but always
> > remember that the airport or FBO is insuring itself and doesn't care a
> > hoot about you.
> >
> > It might come after you for the deductible (probably not a big
> > matter). Someone you injure might decide to sue you, as well as the
> > airport. Etc.
> >
> > I pay a bit less than $600 a year for a million-dollar liability
> > policy, $25,000 hull insurance. You can ask the FBO for leads.
> >
> > AOPA has an insurance broker. I buy mine from a private insurance
> > agency that represents AIG.
> >
> >
> > all the best -- Dan Ford
> > email:
> >
> > see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> > and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
>
>

[gross_arrow]

"Frederick Wilson" > wrote in message news:<OoaNb.50172$nt4.83107@attbi_s51>...
> So what happens after a Million Dollars.
>
> You know folks can be mighty greedy.
>
> Fred
>


sort of depends on what your assets are, and how much of a gambler
the person suing is. as i understand it (and i'm sure corrections will
be forthcoming if i am mistaken), the insurance company tries to
negotiate a settlement somewhat less than the million, and that the
settlement is conditional on being accepted as "payment in full" --
iow, by accepting the settlement the suer waives any further right
to compensation.

so, the suer is offered, say, half-a-mil. your assets are two mil.
take the sure bet or gamble on losing (or being awarded a lesser
amount) in court? hmmmm....

of course if your assets are < 1 mil you have nothing to worry about.
conversely, if your assets are >10 mil, they might be willing to gamble,
so you should pay a higher premium for more coverage. buy the
protection you need to protect your assets.

mho,

g_a

[Robert M. Gary]

Peter R. > wrote in message >...
> Robert M. Gary ) wrote:
>
> > If your FBO has full hull and you have limited assets, what are
> > you trying to protect with a renter's policy???
>
> Future earnings?

In accounting we call those "assets".

[Michael]

"Frederick Wilson" > wrote
> As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter insurance?

Maybe. A lot depends on whether you are worth suing. As a general
rule, if you were worth suing you could afford to buy your own
airplane.

> What are the pro's and con's?

The pros are that the insurance company will pay if you are sued. The
cons are the premium and significantly increased likelihood of being
sued.

I'm not an expert on this, so I will simply relay what I was told by
an expert. The instructor who signed me off for my private glider
ride practiced for two decades as an aviation attorney, working
exclusively in GA. Of all the instructors in the club, he was the
least concerned about liability. When I asked him why, he told me the
best kept secret of the profession.

You just can't get a lawyer excited about suing someone who is
uninsured on a contingency basis. Neither he nor anyone he knew in
the business (and he knew lots of people in the business) ever
accepted such a case. He said it would take someone with a net worth
of millions to make him try it.

There are all kinds of reasons for this. Insurance companies tend to
be reasonable and will settle if their legal staff says the case is a
loser. Individuals tend to ignore the legal advice, and will expend
their liquid assets defending the suit just so the plaintiff won't get
it, even if it costs them more. Most people have most of their net
worth in their cars, houses, and retirement accounts - things you
can't get in a lawsuit. Attaching wages is rarely worthwhile, and
bankruptcy is no longer the unthinkable act it used to be. Basically,
you can't get blood from a stone.

> Where would one get such coverage?

Most insurance companies (AOPA, AIG, etc) offer it. It will be
several hundred dollars a year. But realistically, if the cost of the
insurance gives you a bit of sticker shock, you probably don't need
it.

Michael

[Rick Durden]

Fred,

Just renewed my renter's insurance through AOPA, slightly cheaper than
Avemco with the same coverage and it was only $50 to add my employer
as a named insured as opposed to $300 with Avemco.

For $80,000 hull coverage and $1 mil liability with $100,000 sublimits
per person (which I despise, but smooth insurance for renters is NOT
available), I'm paying just over $1,000. I was amazed to find that
ratings and flying time do NOT matter on the price. I take recurrent
training every six months, yet that didn't affect the rate at all.
For owned aircraft insurance ratings and recurrent training do affect
the price of the insurance.

Do NOT get insurance that just covers the FBO's deductible, that does
not protect you if the FBO's carrier chooses to subrogate against you
for the loss.

The problem is that there is only $100,000 available for injury or
death per person, which you can burn through in a big hurry. However,
the policy does provide you a defense, which is very valuable. An
aggressive defense and $100,000 may help cut down the risk to your
personal assets.

The only alternative is to not fly or buy an airplane and buy a smooth
policy to cover yourself when flying it.

All the best,
Rick

"Frederick Wilson" > wrote in message news:<Jw2Nb.51945$8H.102633@attbi_s03>...
> As a renter of the local FBO 172, should I obtain personal renter insurance?
>
> What are the pro's and con's?
>
> Where would one get such coverage?
>
> Thanks,
> Fred

[BTIZ]

that is the truth... renters insurance for a given hull value is about the
same as owners insurance for the same hull value... imagine that..

BT

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Rick Durden wrote:
> >
> > For $80,000 hull coverage and $1 mil liability with $100,000 sublimits
> > per person (which I despise, but smooth insurance for renters is NOT
> > available), I'm paying just over $1,000.
>
> Wow! That's nearly what I'm paying for insurance on my Maule!
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rick Durden wrote:
>
> For $80,000 hull coverage and $1 mil liability with $100,000 sublimits
> per person (which I despise, but smooth insurance for renters is NOT
> available), I'm paying just over $1,000.

Wow! That's nearly what I'm paying for insurance on my Maule!

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Peter R.]

Robert M. Gary ) wrote:

> Peter R. > wrote in message
> > Robert M. Gary ) wrote:
> >
> > > If your FBO has full hull and you have limited assets, what are
> > > you trying to protect with a renter's policy???
> >
> > Future earnings?
>
> In accounting we call those "assets".

I believe they call them assets in legal circles, too!

--
Peter












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[Ron Natalie]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Rick Durden wrote:
> >
> > For $80,000 hull coverage and $1 mil liability with $100,000 sublimits
> > per person (which I despise, but smooth insurance for renters is NOT
> > available), I'm paying just over $1,000.
>
> Wow! That's nearly what I'm paying for insurance on my Maule!
>
Why should that surprise you? The risk is actually about the same (maybe
worse for the renter). My owner coverage includes coverage on non-owned
aircraft to the same limits. Pretty cool eh?

[Rick Durden]

George,

Do you only have a $100,000 sublimit policy?

If so, you might want to reconsider and get a smooth policy if you
have any assets worth protecting.

All the best,
Rick

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> Rick Durden wrote:
> >
> > For $80,000 hull coverage and $1 mil liability with $100,000 sublimits
> > per person (which I despise, but smooth insurance for renters is NOT
> > available), I'm paying just over $1,000.
>
> Wow! That's nearly what I'm paying for insurance on my Maule!
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rick Durden wrote:
>
> Do you only have a $100,000 sublimit policy?
>
> If so, you might want to reconsider and get a smooth policy if you
> have any assets worth protecting.

Yeah, I've been tempted to do that. Thanks for the advice.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Robert M. Gary]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> Rick Durden wrote:
> >
> > Do you only have a $100,000 sublimit policy?
> >
> > If so, you might want to reconsider and get a smooth policy if you
> > have any assets worth protecting.
>
> Yeah, I've been tempted to do that. Thanks for the advice.

Wait until you see the premium difference!