How do you get passengers over the fear of flying?

[Gerald Sylvester]

I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.

Is this me or is it just the general public?

Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
since passing my checkride.

Gerald

[John T]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression
> the since passing my checkride.

Some people just have an innate fear of getting in a small tin can with
wobbly wings - especially with a newly minted pilot at the controls. :)

In my experience, the only thing you can do is be yourself and don't expect
others to change. Don't push it and try not to belittle them for their
"irrational" fears. Some people may eventually decide to try it after
regularly hearing how excited you are about it and seeing that you actually
come home after every flight. Others will never do so.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Gary Drescher]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.

It's important to realize that your fearful friends may be right.
Recreational flying is more dangerous than any activity that most Americans
engage in (unless we count dietary and exercise habits as an "activity").
According to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation's 2002 Nall Report
(http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/02nall.pdf), personal (non-business)
GA flying has an average rate of one fatality per 56,000 hours of flying.
At that rate, among people who do 100 hours per year of personal flying,
about 1 in 20 are killed within 25 years. To put that in perspective, for
40-year-olds with a life expectancy of 80 years, 6.3 hours of life are lost
for every hour flown. For 10-year-olds with the same life expectancy, 11
hours of life are lost for every hour flown.

Is it worth it? That's a personal decision; it depends in part on how
important flying is to someone. If it's very important, then taking the
risk might make sense. If it's not very important, then it might not make
much sense.

--Gary

[Rick Durden]

Gerald,

Congratulations on passing your flight test and getting your
certificate.

You'll find that a huge percentage of people think little airplanes
are death traps for many reasons. While general aviation's lousy
accident record certainly contributes to it, some folks are frightened
of heights, some of surrendering control to someone else in a
situation where they cannot do anything about what is going on and
some don't trust the pilot. How are you perceived by those people?
What kind of driver are you? Are you known for speeding, weaving in
and out of traffic, hard acceleration, heavy braking and no regard for
your passengers? If so, very few people will get in an airplane with
you. If you are known as one who avoids risks then you may find it
easier to get your friends to fly with you.

There are some good articles on how to give a first ride to people.
By and large the rules are keep it short, do it early in the morning
or in the evening when the air is smooth, describe what you are doing
and keep it smooth with shallow banks and very conservative
maneuvering...no stalls or steep turns. A passenger you scare may be
the voter who casts the deciding vote to close your airport. Take
barf bags, put them in reach and mention factually, and briefly, that
if they feel uncomfortable to use the bag. If a passenger expresses a
feeling of discomfort, terminate the flight. Interestingly enough,
those who have done the research have found that if the flight is
ended prior to the passenger throwing up, his or her tolerance will
increase and the passenger will do better on the next flight. If the
passenger actually throws up, the tolerance decreases and it happens
faster on the next flight.

You'll also find that your circle of friends will change as you tend
to associate with those who like the idea of flying.

All the best,
Rick

Gerald Sylvester > wrote in message et>...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.
>
> Gerald

[FUji]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.
>
> Gerald
>

Scared of airplanes or scared of you?

A lot of people put airline pilots on a pedestal, up there with doctors and
the like. It's not possible for you, a lowly -insert occupation here- to
know how to competently operate something as complex as an airplane.
Especially with other people in it. Not to mention that you are more likely
to survive a crash in an airliner than in a little tin can.

This sound harsh, but many people actually think this way. To go up in a
small airplane would mean changing things they believed as true their whole
lives. Not an easy thing to do. Oh well, it's their loss. Going up with
one person and having them spread the word can be better than you doing it
yourself.

[Gene Seibel]

I've been flying for 28 years. Each time I get into my airplane, I
expect to survive the trip. The general public gets their information
from TV and movies. They have a different expectation. I've given up
changing their minds. Enjoy flying. Enjoy taking up the rare
individuals who still know that TV and movies are not reality. ;)
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


Gerald Sylvester > wrote in message et>...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.
>
> Gerald

[Frederick Wilson]

I have run into quiet a few of these folks, my brother included. When I did
finally get the chance with my brother I took him through the preflight and
tried to relate it to his car. Believe it or not most folks do a preflight
on their car before every drive. They just don't know it. Once you point it
out to folks that they look at the tires on the walk up and how dirty the
windows are they get the point.

In side I relate the gauges to a car once again. The difference is that just
like in a car you need to know how fast you are going, in an airplane you
need to know how high you are going too. As an added benefit I have a timer
that tells me how fast I will get to my height (VSI).

I tell them I get to talk on my CB radio(s). Oh yea I have a hi-tech compass
that points to where I am going.

I talked my brother through each phase of the flight telling him what I was
doing before I did it. I explained to pass the checkride that a steep turn
and turns around a point were necessary and went to demonstrate. Although at
about 25-30 degree bank I had exceeded his fun meter so we balanced out and
flew around.

The worse part for him was the wind shift in flight. When I got back I
needed to slip for the crosswind which really un-nerved him. Cleaned it up,
did a go around and departed the area and talked him through what I had to
do.

Needless to say we got back and now he is driving me nuts about going up
again.

Fred
"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.
>
> Gerald
>
>
>
>
>

[C J Campbell]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
| I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
| go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
| of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
| of airplanes."

That is just about typical. The way to deal with this, of course, is to kill
your friends. That way they cannot spread the fear of airplanes to others.
It is the merciful thing to do.

Or you could take up those few friends who are willing and let them talk up
the experience to the cowards.

[C J Campbell]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:WSaNb.49062$sv6.126431@attbi_s52...
| "Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
| ink.net...
| > I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
| > go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
| > of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
| > of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
| > my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
| > shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
| >
| > Is this me or is it just the general public?
| >
| > Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
| > since passing my checkride.
|
| It's important to realize that your fearful friends may be right.
| Recreational flying is more dangerous than any activity that most
Americans
| engage in (unless we count dietary and exercise habits as an "activity").

There are also smoking, logging, and water skiing, too name a few other
activities that are more dangerous than flying. Motorcycle riding is pretty
dangerous, too.

You can make your recreational flying far less dangerous than the norm if
you just avoid some activities, such as low level maneuvering.

[Kevin Hill]

Have you considered that they are not necessarily afraid of flying, but of
flying a private plane with someone who they are not familiar with, or not
totally comfortable with?

As a non pilot - I would NOT get into a private (cessna type, mooney type)
plane with ANYONE I currently know. At least when I fly commercial, I know
that they have at least had some kind of professional training (I hope)!

I know the chances are VERY small for an incident, even in private flight.

Just my non-pilot perspective Gerald. Perhaps your friends are trying to be
diplomatic?


"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
>
> Is this me or is it just the general public?
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.
>
> Gerald
>
>
>
>
>

[Paul Sengupta]

I find that people are very enthusiastic, personally. Unfortunately
though, this can wane somewhat after the 2nd or 3rd wasted trip
to the airport when the weather wasn't good enough to go flying,
or the plane had gone tech or whatever. This hasn't happened to
me since I've owned my own plane though...combination of knowing
(with reasonable certainty) if the plane's serviceable and not having a
booked slot so am able to fly whenever there's a break in the weather.

Some people do ask "is it dangerous?"...I just look bemused, look at
myself and say "I'm still here". That usually makes them smile and
realise the chance of anything happening is extremely slim! If they're
interested I explain what normally causes fatal crashes and how
these factors wouldn't apply to the current day's flying.

Paul

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> of airplanes."

[Gary Drescher]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> news:WSaNb.49062$sv6.126431@attbi_s52...
> | It's important to realize that your fearful friends may be right.
> | Recreational flying is more dangerous than any activity that most
> Americans
> | engage in (unless we count dietary and exercise habits as an
"activity").
>
> There are also smoking, logging, and water skiing, too name a few other
> activities that are more dangerous than flying. Motorcycle riding is
pretty
> dangerous, too.

Sure, but none of those is an activity that most Americans engage in. Most
Americans avoid activities as dangerous as recreational flying.

> You can make your recreational flying far less dangerous than the norm if
> you just avoid some activities, such as low level maneuvering.

Maneuvering accidents account for 22% of GA fatalities, so avoiding
maneuvering does help a little. Takeoff fatalities are the next biggest
category (17% of GA fatalities), and that's a harder activity to avoid if
you're going to fly.

On the other hand, student flying is about four times safer than personal
flying overall, and student flying includes an especially high concentration
of low-level maneuvering, as well as takeoffs and landings. So we're a lot
better off if we fly like students.

--Gary

[Tune2828]

patience!!

my mom and dad visited soon after i got my cert. it was a hot summer afternoon
and i was desperate to show off my new skills. i knew she had fear of heights
and was hesitant, but i forced her into it. as we were taxiing she was almost
crying, forced me to shut down - and headed back to the FBO.

good thing too - as my dad and i were cruising over denver we were getting mod.
turb, and 3-400 ft up/down drafts. my dad was calmer than i was.

the conditions were so back we aborted our landing at centenniel, headed back
to FNL, and the the rollout a gust of wind almost swerved me off the runway on
rollout.

my mom was sitting happily in the FBO watching the weather channel drinking
coffee.

lesson learned, and thinking back, i'd probably be more than nervous too -
especially being stuck in the back seat

fast forward to a few years and lots of hours later:

when my mom visited last fall she finally agreed to go up with me - and we took
an afternoon trip up to wyoming in a more spacious 182. i informed her of all
flight characteristics - cutting back the engine, banks, etc. she had a great
time for a first time pax, followed and tracked are time with the GPS, and the
only time she clenched the seats were during our turn to base - and even said
"looks like we're too far right" as i overshot slightly.

learn from my mistake - and don't push anyone

[Dan Luke]

"Gerald Sylvester" wrote:
> Is this me or is it just the general public?

There are three common reasons people fear to fly in light aircraft with
private pilots:

1) They are afraid of *any* flying. This is a personal control issue
almost entirely unrelated to the real risks involved.

2) They know the prospective pilot and do not trust him.

3) They understand, somehow, that private flying is far more dangerous
than any activity they normally pursue - unless they ride motorcycles in
city traffic or engage in something similarly risky.

There is nothing you can do about the first problem.
The second is a personality and reputation issue which may or may not be
subject to change.
The third is the tricky one. Do you attempt to allay prospective
passengers' fears by telling them that flying with you is safe? I cannot
do this: if someone wants to fly with me, I'm all for it, but I'm not
going to talk anyone into it.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Kevin Hill]

Let's put it this way.

A pilot flying a commercial jet or airplane is at his job. Not that that is
a guarantee or anything. He's also responsible for all his passengers, and
will loose his job and livelyhood should he do something stupid. As several
pilots have done, who reported for work drunk.

A professional airline usually has many people involved in the operation of
a flight, and any one of those people can pull the plug on the pilot or the
flight should they be doing something stupid, like drinking, or perhaps
trying to take off with a few nuts and bolts loose. The theory being that
the chances that multiple eyeballs will see a problem is higher. And
maintenance crews and staff are dedicated to keeping the planes flying.

A professional pilot also probably has lots more hours under his belt
stepping into the jets cockpit than many private pilots. And, has
experienced his share of issues, problems and perhaps emergencies. That
experience means something.

As to your remarks about who designed these planes. Glad they had
supervising engineers looking over their shoulders, and glad they had
engineers working under them to cover their mistakes when they were too hung
over to do their jobs.

Point being - one person can make a mistake and not recover from it. Many
people can work on a project, and every person gets a chance to catch a
mistake prior to it getting loose. Not that it's perfect. Just better.

Finally - not knocking pilots. Just saying that I'd have a tough time
getting into a plane with them and literally trusting my life to them.
Particularly when their flight experience may be measured in tens our
hundreds of hours. Flying may still have lots of lessons to teach them.




"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Kevin Hill" >
>
> >As a non pilot - I would NOT get into a private (cessna type, mooney
type)
> >plane with ANYONE I currently know. At least when I fly commercial, I
know
> >that they have at least had some kind of professional training (I hope)!
>
> Then I'm sure you'll be thrilled to hear that some of the engineers that
designed those
> airliners, and their engines, were classmates of mine 25 years ago. Some
of whom
> I helped carry back to their dorm while they were puking their guts out
after overindulging
> at the weekend kegger because they were so tripped out on LSD that they
didn't
> know how much they were drinking. Think about that next time you get on an
airliner!
>
> As for the "professional training", do you think we were taught to fly by
amateurs? Or
> just spent enough time with MS Flight Simulator that we decided to get in
a REAL plane?
> BTW, I'm willing to bet that most private pilots could safely handle and
land any airliner that's
> flying today. Should the need arise.
>
>
>
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>

[Gary Drescher]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> The third is the tricky one. Do you attempt to allay prospective
> passengers' fears by telling them that flying with you is safe? I cannot
> do this: if someone wants to fly with me, I'm all for it, but I'm not
> going to talk anyone into it.

Same here. When pilots are dismissive of others' safety concerns, it's
disconcertingly reminiscent of stereotypical drug-use peer-pressure in high
school: what's the matter, are you chicken?

But if prospective passengers ask, I'll say that I think it's reasonably
safe. I think the type of flying I do with passengers is going to be at
least as safe as student flying, so I cite 1 in 250,000 as my best estimate
of their chance of getting killed if they go for a one-hour flight with me.
But I don't presume to try to persuade them as to whether that risk is worth
taking.

--Gary

[Mike Rapoport]

"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> As for the "professional training", do you think we were taught to fly by
amateurs?

Yeah, pretty much. Light GA flying has an fatal accident rate about 100X
greater than turbine corporate GA and airline flying. Since the vast
majority of accidents are pilot induced, there is no other conclusion except
that the pilots are poorly trained and exhibit poor judgement compared to
corporate and airline pilots.

Mike
MU-2

[C J Campbell]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:WSaNb.49062$sv6.126431@attbi_s52...
|
| It's important to realize that your fearful friends may be right.
| Recreational flying is more dangerous than any activity that most
Americans
| engage in (unless we count dietary and exercise habits as an "activity").
| According to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation's 2002 Nall Report
| (http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/02nall.pdf), personal (non-business)
| GA flying has an average rate of one fatality per 56,000 hours of flying.
| At that rate, among people who do 100 hours per year of personal flying,
| about 1 in 20 are killed within 25 years. To put that in perspective, for
| 40-year-olds with a life expectancy of 80 years, 6.3 hours of life are
lost
| for every hour flown. For 10-year-olds with the same life expectancy, 11
| hours of life are lost for every hour flown.
|

Wanna check your math, there, Gary? And maybe you could mine the data for a
little more interesting information. You do come up with good stuff.

It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one fatal
accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year. However, most
people fly much less than 100 hours per year. They also do not have long
flying careers. Most people fly for less than 20 years of their adult life.

It would be interesting to know whether accidents cluster around those who
don't fly very often (less than 50 hours per year) or those who fly a lot or
even professionally.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Gerald Sylvester wrote:
>
> Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> since passing my checkride.

Yep. Fly for a few years and don't bend any planes. People will begin to believe
you're a safe pilot after you establish a good track record. They may be wrong in
this belief, but they'll fly with you.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Paul]

base on my personal experience:

Do it short. Max 30 minutes of flight.
Never, never, never exceed 15 degrees of bank

Paul

"Rick Durden" > a écrit dans le message de
m...
> Gerald,
>
> Congratulations on passing your flight test and getting your
> certificate.
>
> You'll find that a huge percentage of people think little airplanes
> are death traps for many reasons. While general aviation's lousy
> accident record certainly contributes to it, some folks are frightened
> of heights, some of surrendering control to someone else in a
> situation where they cannot do anything about what is going on and
> some don't trust the pilot. How are you perceived by those people?
> What kind of driver are you? Are you known for speeding, weaving in
> and out of traffic, hard acceleration, heavy braking and no regard for
> your passengers? If so, very few people will get in an airplane with
> you. If you are known as one who avoids risks then you may find it
> easier to get your friends to fly with you.
>
> There are some good articles on how to give a first ride to people.
> By and large the rules are keep it short, do it early in the morning
> or in the evening when the air is smooth, describe what you are doing
> and keep it smooth with shallow banks and very conservative
> maneuvering...no stalls or steep turns. A passenger you scare may be
> the voter who casts the deciding vote to close your airport. Take
> barf bags, put them in reach and mention factually, and briefly, that
> if they feel uncomfortable to use the bag. If a passenger expresses a
> feeling of discomfort, terminate the flight. Interestingly enough,
> those who have done the research have found that if the flight is
> ended prior to the passenger throwing up, his or her tolerance will
> increase and the passenger will do better on the next flight. If the
> passenger actually throws up, the tolerance decreases and it happens
> faster on the next flight.
>
> You'll also find that your circle of friends will change as you tend
> to associate with those who like the idea of flying.
>
> All the best,
> Rick
>
> Gerald Sylvester > wrote in message
et>...
> > I recently got my PPL and find that most people are scared sh*tless to
> > go up. One friend came along and was just blown away and had a ton
> > of fun. Just about everyone else is "oh my god, I am so scared
> > of airplanes." This weekend I was going to go with my CFI to celebrate
> > my passing my checkride in a brand new SR-20 and people are still
> > shaking in their boots scared to hell and simply will not go.
> >
> > Is this me or is it just the general public?
> >
> > Any ideas? I hope this doesn't sound stupid but just my impression the
> > since passing my checkride.
> >
> > Gerald

[Richard Hertz]

So, Kevin, what are you doing hanging around an aviation group?


"Kevin Hill" > wrote in message
news:f_hNb.17218$XD5.15970@fed1read06...
> Let's put it this way.
>
> A pilot flying a commercial jet or airplane is at his job. Not that that
is
> a guarantee or anything. He's also responsible for all his passengers,
and
> will loose his job and livelyhood should he do something stupid. As
several
> pilots have done, who reported for work drunk.
>
> A professional airline usually has many people involved in the operation
of
> a flight, and any one of those people can pull the plug on the pilot or
the
> flight should they be doing something stupid, like drinking, or perhaps
> trying to take off with a few nuts and bolts loose. The theory being that
> the chances that multiple eyeballs will see a problem is higher. And
> maintenance crews and staff are dedicated to keeping the planes flying.
>
> A professional pilot also probably has lots more hours under his belt
> stepping into the jets cockpit than many private pilots. And, has
> experienced his share of issues, problems and perhaps emergencies. That
> experience means something.
>
> As to your remarks about who designed these planes. Glad they had
> supervising engineers looking over their shoulders, and glad they had
> engineers working under them to cover their mistakes when they were too
hung
> over to do their jobs.
>
> Point being - one person can make a mistake and not recover from it. Many
> people can work on a project, and every person gets a chance to catch a
> mistake prior to it getting loose. Not that it's perfect. Just better.
>
> Finally - not knocking pilots. Just saying that I'd have a tough time
> getting into a plane with them and literally trusting my life to them.
> Particularly when their flight experience may be measured in tens our
> hundreds of hours. Flying may still have lots of lessons to teach them.
>
>
>
>
> "Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in
message
> ...
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> > From: "Kevin Hill" >
> >
> > >As a non pilot - I would NOT get into a private (cessna type, mooney
> type)
> > >plane with ANYONE I currently know. At least when I fly commercial, I
> know
> > >that they have at least had some kind of professional training (I
hope)!
> >
> > Then I'm sure you'll be thrilled to hear that some of the engineers that
> designed those
> > airliners, and their engines, were classmates of mine 25 years ago. Some
> of whom
> > I helped carry back to their dorm while they were puking their guts out
> after overindulging
> > at the weekend kegger because they were so tripped out on LSD that they
> didn't
> > know how much they were drinking. Think about that next time you get on
an
> airliner!
> >
> > As for the "professional training", do you think we were taught to fly
by
> amateurs? Or
> > just spent enough time with MS Flight Simulator that we decided to get
in
> a REAL plane?
> > BTW, I'm willing to bet that most private pilots could safely handle and
> land any airliner that's
> > flying today. Should the need arise.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > Version: 2.6.2
> >
> > iQCVAwUBQAWuZpMoscYxZNI5AQFchgP+IeBl8ovaD9tSuiF8+9 fq3YsksJbgX+TI
> > nhtmYcC9YqIwJRZIhn1aPG4K3ldsltPF34vf9++iCwp92Xr3gf 7yM8zhlbBdtbEH
> > PTp9ieFklGl6oqHcNP0WAyUBqZxOT16IyCEHkePOWRwqn4mY9n zwSPqQIDf8TJz4
> > /gnke18Bsu0=
> > =27vL
> > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Ron Lee]

"C J Campbell" > wrote:
>
>It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
>opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one fatal
>accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year. However, most
>people fly much less than 100 hours per year. They also do not have long
>flying careers. Most people fly for less than 20 years of their adult life.

And if you eliminate the obvious Darwinism fatalities it is even
safer. Just like automobile accidents. Don't do the things that kill
most people and it is safer than raw stats would suggest.

Ron Lee

[John T]

"Frederick Wilson" > wrote in message
news:5leNb.51713$nt4.83737@attbi_s51
>
> Believe it or not most
> folks do a preflight on their car before every drive. They just don't
> know it. Once you point it out to folks that they look at the tires
> on the walk up and how dirty the windows are...

Hi, Frederick. I'd like to introduce my wife... :)

The only "preflight" done on her vehicle before she turns the key is the one
performed by the onboard computer.

I, on the other hand, know exactly where you're coming from. :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Kevin Hill]

Enjoying the talk and listening to you guys swap stories. Good stuff!

Honestly - I do quite a bit of "sim" flying - and seeing how things go in
the real world is kinda sobering. And - I didn't say that I wouldn't fly
myself somewhere, or take passengers myself if I was a private pilot. Just
that I don't know anyone right now that i'd fly with.

Kevin


"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message
et...
> So, Kevin, what are you doing hanging around an aviation group?
>
>
> "Kevin Hill" > wrote in message
> news:f_hNb.17218$XD5.15970@fed1read06...
> > Let's put it this way.
> >
> > A pilot flying a commercial jet or airplane is at his job. Not that
that
> is
> > a guarantee or anything. He's also responsible for all his passengers,
> and
> > will loose his job and livelyhood should he do something stupid. As
> several
> > pilots have done, who reported for work drunk.
> >
> > A professional airline usually has many people involved in the operation
> of
> > a flight, and any one of those people can pull the plug on the pilot or
> the
> > flight should they be doing something stupid, like drinking, or perhaps
> > trying to take off with a few nuts and bolts loose. The theory being
that
> > the chances that multiple eyeballs will see a problem is higher. And
> > maintenance crews and staff are dedicated to keeping the planes flying.
> >
> > A professional pilot also probably has lots more hours under his belt
> > stepping into the jets cockpit than many private pilots. And, has
> > experienced his share of issues, problems and perhaps emergencies. That
> > experience means something.
> >
> > As to your remarks about who designed these planes. Glad they had
> > supervising engineers looking over their shoulders, and glad they had
> > engineers working under them to cover their mistakes when they were too
> hung
> > over to do their jobs.
> >
> > Point being - one person can make a mistake and not recover from it.
Many
> > people can work on a project, and every person gets a chance to catch a
> > mistake prior to it getting loose. Not that it's perfect. Just better.
> >
> > Finally - not knocking pilots. Just saying that I'd have a tough time
> > getting into a plane with them and literally trusting my life to them.
> > Particularly when their flight experience may be measured in tens our
> > hundreds of hours. Flying may still have lots of lessons to teach them.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in
> message
> > ...
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > >
> > > From: "Kevin Hill" >
> > >
> > > >As a non pilot - I would NOT get into a private (cessna type, mooney
> > type)
> > > >plane with ANYONE I currently know. At least when I fly commercial,
I
> > know
> > > >that they have at least had some kind of professional training (I
> hope)!
> > >
> > > Then I'm sure you'll be thrilled to hear that some of the engineers
that
> > designed those
> > > airliners, and their engines, were classmates of mine 25 years ago.
Some
> > of whom
> > > I helped carry back to their dorm while they were puking their guts
out
> > after overindulging
> > > at the weekend kegger because they were so tripped out on LSD that
they
> > didn't
> > > know how much they were drinking. Think about that next time you get
on
> an
> > airliner!
> > >
> > > As for the "professional training", do you think we were taught to fly
> by
> > amateurs? Or
> > > just spent enough time with MS Flight Simulator that we decided to get
> in
> > a REAL plane?
> > > BTW, I'm willing to bet that most private pilots could safely handle
and
> > land any airliner that's
> > > flying today. Should the need arise.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > > Version: 2.6.2
> > >
> > > iQCVAwUBQAWuZpMoscYxZNI5AQFchgP+IeBl8ovaD9tSuiF8+9 fq3YsksJbgX+TI
> > > nhtmYcC9YqIwJRZIhn1aPG4K3ldsltPF34vf9++iCwp92Xr3gf 7yM8zhlbBdtbEH
> > > PTp9ieFklGl6oqHcNP0WAyUBqZxOT16IyCEHkePOWRwqn4mY9n zwSPqQIDf8TJz4
> > > /gnke18Bsu0=
> > > =27vL
> > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Gary Drescher]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> news:WSaNb.49062$sv6.126431@attbi_s52...
> |
> | It's important to realize that your fearful friends may be right.
> | Recreational flying is more dangerous than any activity that most
> Americans
> | engage in (unless we count dietary and exercise habits as an
"activity").
> | According to AOPA's Air Safety Foundation's 2002 Nall Report
> | (http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/02nall.pdf), personal
(non-business)
> | GA flying has an average rate of one fatality per 56,000 hours of
flying.
> | At that rate, among people who do 100 hours per year of personal flying,
> | about 1 in 20 are killed within 25 years. To put that in perspective,
for
> | 40-year-olds with a life expectancy of 80 years, 6.3 hours of life are
> lost
> | for every hour flown. For 10-year-olds with the same life expectancy,
11
> | hours of life are lost for every hour flown.
> |
>
> Wanna check your math, there, Gary? And maybe you could mine the data for
a
> little more interesting information. You do come up with good stuff.
>
> It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
> opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one fatal
> accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year.

According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in 20
within 25 years.

You're right though that I was conflating fatal accidents with fatalities.
So the probability in question is the risk that *someone* will die in the
plane you're piloting--not necessarily you.

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"Ron Lee" > wrote in message
...
> "C J Campbell" > wrote:
> >
> >It would be more accurate to say that there is one fatal accident (as
> >opposed to fatality) every 76,000 hours of flying. That would be one
fatal
> >accident every 760 years for people flying 100 hours per year. However,
most
> >people fly much less than 100 hours per year. They also do not have long
> >flying careers. Most people fly for less than 20 years of their adult
life.
>
> And if you eliminate the obvious Darwinism fatalities it is even
> safer. Just like automobile accidents. Don't do the things that kill
> most people and it is safer than raw stats would suggest.

Not necessarily. You're right that the statistics reflect an unknown number
of dumb decisions that you and I might never make. But they also reflect an
unknown number of instances where a pilot escaped harm by exercising better
skill or judgment than you or I possess. We don't know which factor
predominates, so we don't know if our personal risk is greater or less than
what the raw stats show.

--Gary

>
> Ron Lee
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:pLvNb.57987$Rc4.212328@attbi_s54...
> personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.

Oops, that should say "but 70.8% of GA fatal accidents".

[C J Campbell]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:pLvNb.57987$Rc4.212328@attbi_s54...

| According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
| 100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
| personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
| That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
| That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
| pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in
20
| within 25 years.
|

Twenty years ago personal flying was roughly twice as dangerous as it is
now. Seems a lot of the stupid ones killed themselves. Makes you wonder if
we are going to get a an upsurge in accidents now that so many people are
learning to fly again.

Nall is not the only source on aviation safety. Other reports have broken
the accident rate down by type of aircraft. The Cessna 152 and 172 have much
lower accident rates than average, for example. Some models approach the
safety record of airliners, but they tend to be flown only by professional
pilots.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> It would be interesting to know whether accidents cluster around those who
> don't fly very often (less than 50 hours per year) or those who fly a lot
or
> even professionally.

I notice many fatal accidents in the NTSB database note that the pilot was
not current...perhaps more than half (sorry...I've not run empirical
analysis). OTOH, there seems to be a lot of pilots with thousands of hours.
Overconfidence of experience?

[Gerald Sylvester]

Wow, I asked a short question and this thread has blown into dozens
of postings. I'm glad I'm not the only who was interested
in talking about this.

Also I would like to thank everyone for your thoughts.
I guess most of my friends will never go flying but that
is their choice.


Gary wrote:
> According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
> 100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
> personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
> That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
> That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
> pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in 20
> within 25 years.

Is it me or do others
find all these stats just completely useless after a while since it
appears that if you add all the percentages up it comes out to
14,284% (Gary I'm not pointing this next comment you *at all*)
I'm starting to believe the old saying, "Statistics don't
lie. The people who use statistics lie." Gary's example is
pretty clear cut but most of these reports are quite
comfusing. (NOTE: I took 9 semesters of math above Calculus I
so my math is not exactly lacking)

Gerald

[Gerald Sylvester]

Wow, I asked a short question and this thread has blown into dozens
of postings. I'm glad I'm not the only who was interested
in talking about this.

Also I would like to thank everyone for your thoughts.
I guess most of my friends will never go flying but that
is their choice.


Gary wrote:
> According to p. 1 of the Nall Report, there are 1.22 fatal accidents per
> 100,000 GA hours. That's one every 82,000 hours. According to p. 5,
> personal flying accounts for 48.1% of GA hours, but 70.8% of GA flying.
> That comes to one fatal accident per 56,000 hours of personal flying.
> That's every 560 years at 100 hours per year, or every 28 years among 20
> pilots who fly 100 hours per year each. So as I said, it's roughly 1 in 20
> within 25 years.

Is it me or do others
find all these stats just completely useless after a while since it
appears that if you add all the percentages up it comes out to
14,284% (Gary I'm not pointing this next comment you *at all*)
I'm starting to believe the old saying, "Statistics don't
lie. The people who use statistics lie." Gary's example is
pretty clear cut but most of these reports are quite
comfusing. (NOTE: I took 9 semesters of math above Calculus I
so my math is not exactly lacking)

Gerald

[Cub Driver]

The general rule of insurance is that you insure against the unlikely
event that would ruin you, not against the ordinary calamity that
might be expected to come along once in a lifetime.

Thus it is probably silly for me to carry hull insurance on a Piper
Cub. I really don't know why I do it, except that I don't know how I'd
explain to my wife if I had to scrape up $25,000 if I trashed the poor
thing.

But the million-dollar liability policy--that's what's important. I
often regret that I can plump it up even higher.

Similarly, I have thousand-dollar deductibles on my cars and house,
and would go to five thousand if it were offered.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Paul Sengupta]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:_LvNb.59755$5V2.69373@attbi_s53...
> Not necessarily. You're right that the statistics reflect an unknown
number
> of dumb decisions that you and I might never make. But they also reflect
an
> unknown number of instances where a pilot escaped harm by exercising
better
> skill or judgment than you or I possess. We don't know which factor
> predominates, so we don't know if our personal risk is greater or less
than
> what the raw stats show.

At the CAA safety evenings in the UK, they open up the discussion
with the lecturer explaining saying hello, and that just by turning up,
even if they didn't stay for the lecture, they're 20 (or was it 15, can't
remember) times less likely to suffer a fatality than average. Nothing
magical about turning up, just that people who are interested in safety
in flying are those who aren't likely to have the accidents...they know
what causes fatal accidents and avoid such situations.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> At the CAA safety evenings in the UK, they open up the discussion
> with the lecturer explaining saying hello, and that just by turning up,
> even if they didn't stay for the lecture, they're 20 (or was it 15, can't

Sorry, I wasn't concentrating when I wrote that!

Let's try again:

The lecturer opens the discussion by saying hello and explaining that
just by turning up...

Paul

[Gary Drescher]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> At the CAA safety evenings in the UK, they open up the discussion
> with the lecturer explaining saying hello, and that just by turning up,
> even if they didn't stay for the lecture, they're 20 (or was it 15, can't
> remember) times less likely to suffer a fatality than average.

That would be an astonishing correlation, if true. Does the lecturer cite
any data to support the notion that it's true? (Even if these pilots have
ZERO chance of ever making a mistake of any kind, that would still make them
only 3 or 4 times less likely than average to suffer a fatality.)

--Gary

[kilomii]

All this talk about stats ( and the stats them selves don't amount to a
hill of beans) I drove 5k to 6k miles a month that's 60k to 72k a year. At
the average for most people of 15k a year that made me 480% more likely to
be in an serious accident. Number of accidents I was involved in "0".
Keep your head, know your limits and that of the aircraft and respect the
weather and your can reduce your risk.

What I do when they finally agree to come flying is I make sure they know
why we preflight and what to expect even when only taxiing. Most
important gentle turns and maneuvers. Remember these are people who are used
to seeing the bulk head separating them from first class, and not all the
visual input from a light plane.

You might also arrange with your FBO to taxi an airplane to the fuel pump
and have one of your friends come along , sort of an introduction to a GA
aircraft. worked for me in the past.

[Gary Drescher]

"kilomii" > wrote in message
m...
> All this talk about stats ( and the stats them selves don't amount to a
> hill of beans)

Not true. Carefully interpreted, statistics tell us a great deal about the
world.

> I drove 5k to 6k miles a month that's 60k to 72k a year. At
> the average for most people of 15k a year that made me 480% more likely to
> be in an serious accident. Number of accidents I was involved in "0".

I'm not sure what conclusion you're trying to draw from this example.
Statistically speaking, the number of serious car accidents you'd most
likely be involved in--even at 5 times the average risk--is still closer to
zero than to one, so the statistical prediction was borne out in this case.

> Keep your head, know your limits and that of the aircraft and respect the
> weather and your can reduce your risk.

Yes, if you do those things, you reduce your risk below what it would be if
you didn't do those things. But you don't necessarily thereby reduce your
risk below the average risk among GA pilots.

--Gary