Good/bad experiences with Tow Vehicle Syndicates?

[son_of_flubber]

I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive to the airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not suitable for towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow the trailer out of a muddy field.

So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something like a Subaru Forester?

Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 10/1/2012 7:22 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive
> to the airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not
> suitable for towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow
> the trailer out of a muddy field.
>
> So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for
> something like a Subaru Forester?
>
> Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

That's an idea. Or maybe buy a suitable but old vehicle for $2000 or so
and keep it at the airport.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[David Reitter]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:22:31 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:

> Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

Similar situation - I drive a small, fuel-efficient car. It's fast, I can see the stars at night and feel the wind during day-time, and it has room for one driver and one passenger. It certainly cannot tow.

I tried borrowing a non-pilot friend's SUV (i.e., giving him the sports car in exchange), but that absolutely didn't work out (he didn't like it). He's no longer my friend, unfortunately. I recommend caution with such dealings. In my UK club, though, we more or less towed each other's gliders and helped out where we could, so it can work out.

I ended up buying a $2k 2000 GMC Safari (same as the Astrovan) that tows great and costs next to nothing in insurance. However, it's taken up a lot of my time and money in repairs. AAA membership pays for itself. I do not recommend leaving it at the airport, at least not parked on a non-sealed surface. The last time I did that, the brakes failed on me a week later due to corrosion of the brake lines.

The Subarus seem great, but they're pricey. With hindsight, I should have bought a newer vehicle, even if it sits there most of the time waiting for something to tow. I like the Mazda CX-7 (sufficient for towing, more efficient due to 4-cylinder), or the Santa Fe.

[Mike the Strike]

Out west here a good four-wheel drive is a good idea and we use the owner's vehicle where possible, but we have some pilots who come to the field by motorcycle, RV or electric vehicle. On land-outs where we can't use an aero-retrieve, we use volunteers and whatever tow vehicle is available. The informal rule is the out-landee gets to buy dinner (and lots of beer) for the volunteer crew. I've been the recipient and donor on both ends of this deal!

Mike

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 7:46:40 AM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 7:22 AM, son_of_flubber wrote: > I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive > to the airport at minimal cost.. But my fuel efficient car is not > suitable for towing a glider trailer.... especially if I have to tow > the trailer out of a muddy field. > > So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for > something like a Subaru Forester? > > Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out? That's an idea. Or maybe buy a suitable but old vehicle for $2000 or so and keep it at the airport. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)

Insurance, in high cost areas like Las Vegas, NV, is a huge factor. I'd just make friends with a glider pilot who has a truck.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 1:44:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:

>> I'd just make friends with a glider pilot who has a truck.

Agree completely. Those of us who have a vehicle that can pull a trailer are usually more than willing to use them to help out a fellow glider pilot in need. Offer to buy some gas in addition to the meal if you borrow crew and vehicle. I doubt you will be turned down. Heck, one of our guys loaned his truck to someone to drive 800 plus miles each way to go pick up a glider he had just bought.

Steve Leonard

[Tony V]

On 10/1/2012 10:22 AM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive to the airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not suitable for towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow the trailer out of a muddy field.
>
> So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something like a Subaru Forester?

Just about any car can tow a glider. What's more important, IMHO, is
what happens when you have to hit the brakes - hard. Most small cars
will do not do well in this situation. I've towed my glider with a 4 cyl
Honda accord and a 6 cyl Toyota Rav 4. I'll take the Rav 4 any day.

Tony LS6-b "6N"

[Craig R.]

As Tony said, small cars have issues when breaking hard. I know a person who pulled his glider with a Jeep Wrangler and the glider trailer (and glider) ended up rolling sideways down the freeway one afternoon. Very sad.
A long wheelbase is your friend. IMO, the longer, the better for safety. My truck is 140 inches compared to a Rav4 at 103ish. I would never consider using a vehicle with that short of a wheelbase. That is an accident waiting to happen.

[Tony V]

On 10/1/2012 10:07 PM, Craig R. wrote:
> As Tony said, small cars have issues when breaking hard. I know a person who pulled his glider with a Jeep Wrangler and the glider trailer (and glider) ended up rolling sideways down the freeway one afternoon.

I have a friend who towed his LS4 behind a Toyota Solara. The LS4 was
repairable.

Tony

[K]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:22:31 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive to the airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not suitable for towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow the trailer out of a muddy field.
>
>
>
> So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something like a Subaru Forester?
>
>
>
> Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?
When I bought my first glider I bought the wife a new car and her old car (Ford Exploder) became my airport car. A spare car is the way to go. When you fly XC and contests no one in the family has to be without a car and you still get to drive your fun car during the week.
Kirk

[Wallace Berry[_2_]]

In article >,
son_of_flubber > wrote:

> I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive to the
> airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not suitable for
> towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow the trailer out of a
> muddy field.
>
> So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something
> like a Subaru Forester?
>
> Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

No experience with a tow car syndicate. However, I can give a
recommendation for a multipurpose tow vehicle. I have been very happy
towing with a Toyota Sienna minivan. MIne is a 2000 model, V6, automatic
trans (of course). Very pleasant vehicle for daily use. Long enough and
heavy enough, with enough power and brakes, to be safe when towing a
glider trailer. Gets 22-24 mpg at 70 mph when not towing. Mileage drops
to 16-18 when towing my 1700lb trailer at 65 mph. It has 180k miles on
it now and has never been in the shop for repairs. I have not yet had to
replace even the front disc brake pads! I would expect later model
Siennas to be even better. Lots of them around and very reasonable to
buy used (in the US).

My other tow vehicle is 1987 Toyota Pickup based motorhome. It is
spectacularly underpowered, but somehow always gets the job done.

[Brad Alston]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:22:31 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:[color=blue][i]

So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something like a Subaru Forester?



Speaking of wheel base...a Chevy Subdivision or GMC Yukon XL (I've got one of these and can attest they tow about anything comfortably) is close to unbeatable. They also come with sufficient stopping power and outweigh the glider/trailer combo by a comfortable margin. I believe there are plenty of these in the used market.

The real downside to these vehicles are 1.) the gas mileage and 2.) repair costs. If you only land out once in a while then it may be OK. If you find a decent copy that has been maintained then you should be OK there as well. However, with these vehicles, as with most things mechanical and have rubber on the road, there is no guarantee as they get older (meaning lots of miles or conditions of use).

Probably comes down to personal preference and compromise on a few things when it comes to decision time. Lots of variables to consider!

Brad A.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 1:32:31 PM UTC-5, Brad Alston wrote:
> K;825382 Wrote: > On Monday, October 1, 2012 8:22:31 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber > wrote:[color=blue][i] > > So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for > something like a Subaru Forester? > > Speaking of wheel base...a Chevy Subdivision or GMC Yukon XL (I've got one of these and can attest they tow about anything comfortably) is close to unbeatable. They also come with sufficient stopping power and outweigh the glider/trailer combo by a comfortable margin. I believe there are plenty of these in the used market. The real downside to these vehicles are 1.) the gas mileage and 2.) repair costs. If you only land out once in a while then it may be OK. If you find a decent copy that has been maintained then you should be OK there as well. However, with these vehicles, as with most things mechanical and have rubber on the road, there is no guarantee as they get older (meaning lots of miles or conditions of use). Probably comes down to personal preference and compromise on a few things when it comes to decision time. Lots of variables to consider! Brad A. -- Brad Alston

My GMC pickup gets terrible gas mileage but it doesn't really get any worse with a trailer on board. I only paid $500 for it though and it enables a lot of fun so i just throw away the gas receipts.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:50:56 PM UTC-4, Tony V wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 10:07 PM, Craig R. wrote: > As Tony said, small cars have issues when breaking hard. I know a person who pulled his glider with a Jeep Wrangler and the glider trailer (and glider) ended up rolling sideways down the freeway one afternoon. I have a friend who towed his LS4 behind a Toyota Solara. The LS4 was repairable. Tony

Wrangler certainly wasnt made for highway driving... not to mention highway towing. Pulled several trailers including an open trailered Blanik with a 4 cylinder Honda Accord, automatic. Coast to coast. Never felt that the power was insufficient, transmission was never damagged, rear brakes were going out at the pace of about 15K and gas mileage was horrible. VW Golf/jetta tdi is more than sufficient to do the job and to have the great gas mielage of 40 MPG and the DSG transmission was almost made for this type of activity.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 4:43:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> VW Golf/jetta tdi is more than sufficient to do the job and to have the great gas mielage of 40 MPG and the DSG transmission was almost made for this type of activity. <

I actually have a VW TDI with DSG. VW USA says the Golf will only tow 1000 lbs gross weight, (though the same car can tow 3000 lbs in Great Britain!) Glider in trailer is 1800+ lbs..

I believe that "tow ratings" are a game of "chicken" played by the auto marketing departments. Some companies like VW choose not to play. There was no common standard for tow ratings until SAE came up with J2807. Here is a good article on J2807. Toyota is the only company that has implemented the standard.

Here's an interesting article on JS807:
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0912_sae_tow_ratings_finally_pass_sniff_test/viewall.html

I don't want to exceed the tow rating for the VW because I think that would make it very easy for my insurance company to welch out of paying a claim should I ever have an accident (also 'lawsuit').

I'm leaning towards getting a decent but fully depreciated "safe tow vehicle". The insurance cost of adding a second vehicle with liability insurance will only cost me $20 a year. Having a "beater" to tow gliders is not a bad way to keep your total costs down in the long run.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 10/2/2012 8:14 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> The insurance cost of adding a second vehicle with liability
> insurance will only cost me $20 a year.

Wow! Having my 1989 Caravan minivan on my insurance is $200/year, only
$50/year cheaper than our 2002 Camry, both for liability only. What
company are you with? Are you the only person on the policy?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 20:14:11 -0700 (PDT), son_of_flubber
> wrote:


>I actually have a VW TDI with DSG. VW USA says the Golf will only tow 1000 lbs gross weight, (though the same car can tow 3000 lbs in Great Britain!)
> Glider in trailer is 1800+ lbs..

Hmmmm.... I had a Golf IV Variant in Germany, and it also had that
1.000 lbs limitation - but only if the trailer did not have brakes.

The limit for a trailer with brakes was the mentioned 3.000 lbs limit.


Could you check again if you are reading your car's manual correctly,
please? I find it hard to believe that VW is limiting its cars in such
a drastic way.

On the other hand:
Reading the criteria that seem to make a good tow vehicle in the US
(heavy and a biiiiiiiig engine) I wouldn't be surprised if the 1.000
lbs limitation only is VW's way to get out oif the way of some
over-enthusiastic US lawyers...


Cheers from Germany
Andreas

whose current VW Passat Diesel tows a loaded Duo Discus trailer with
43 mpg at 55 mph, unfortunately for the price of $5.70 per gallon...

[Papa3[_2_]]

Absolutely. The US towing limits for identical cars are invariably lower for no good technical reason. I have a Sportwagen TDI that's good for 3,000 lbs in Germany and 1,000 lbs in the US (if you can actually get VW to put it in writing - it's in a "supplemental" manual that I had to request seperately).


On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 20:14:11 -0700 (PDT), son_of_flubber
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >I actually have a VW TDI with DSG. VW USA says the Golf will only tow 1000 lbs gross weight, (though the same car can tow 3000 lbs in Great Britain!)
>
> > Glider in trailer is 1800+ lbs..
>
>
>
> Hmmmm.... I had a Golf IV Variant in Germany, and it also had that
>
> 1.000 lbs limitation - but only if the trailer did not have brakes.
>
>
>
> The limit for a trailer with brakes was the mentioned 3.000 lbs limit.
>
>
>
>
>
> Could you check again if you are reading your car's manual correctly,
>
> please? I find it hard to believe that VW is limiting its cars in such
>
> a drastic way.
>
>
>
> On the other hand:
>
> Reading the criteria that seem to make a good tow vehicle in the US
>
> (heavy and a biiiiiiiig engine) I wouldn't be surprised if the 1.000
>
> lbs limitation only is VW's way to get out oif the way of some
>
> over-enthusiastic US lawyers...
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers from Germany
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> whose current VW Passat Diesel tows a loaded Duo Discus trailer with
>
> 43 mpg at 55 mph, unfortunately for the price of $5.70 per gallon...

[bumper[_4_]]

Get a friend who owns a Toyota FJ Cruiser!

We used mine to drag a 2-32 across a bog-like field to get it near enough to the trailer to load up. We needed all of the FJ's compound low and knarly tires to do the job!

Unfortunately, I don't like beer or booze, already had dinner, so had to settle for several "atta-boys".

bumper

[2G]

On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 6:33:29 PM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> Absolutely. The US towing limits for identical cars are invariably lower for no good technical reason. I have a Sportwagen TDI that's good for 3,000 lbs in Germany and 1,000 lbs in the US (if you can actually get VW to put it in writing - it's in a "supplemental" manual that I had to request seperately).
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 20:14:11 -0700 (PDT), son_of_flubber
>
> >
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >I actually have a VW TDI with DSG. VW USA says the Golf will only tow 1000 lbs gross weight, (though the same car can tow 3000 lbs in Great Britain!)
>
> >
>
> > > Glider in trailer is 1800+ lbs..
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Hmmmm.... I had a Golf IV Variant in Germany, and it also had that
>
> >
>
> > 1.000 lbs limitation - but only if the trailer did not have brakes.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The limit for a trailer with brakes was the mentioned 3.000 lbs limit.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Could you check again if you are reading your car's manual correctly,
>
> >
>
> > please? I find it hard to believe that VW is limiting its cars in such
>
> >
>
> > a drastic way.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On the other hand:
>
> >
>
> > Reading the criteria that seem to make a good tow vehicle in the US
>
> >
>
> > (heavy and a biiiiiiiig engine) I wouldn't be surprised if the 1.000
>
> >
>
> > lbs limitation only is VW's way to get out oif the way of some
>
> >
>
> > over-enthusiastic US lawyers...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Cheers from Germany
>
> >
>
> > Andreas
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > whose current VW Passat Diesel tows a loaded Duo Discus trailer with
>
> >
>
> > 43 mpg at 55 mph, unfortunately for the price of $5.70 per gallon...

Would you have the same disregard for your gliders POH? I would certainly hope not! Tow ratings are set for some VERY good reasons - don't ignore them! Furthermore, they are set with MUCH shorter trailers in mind than glider trailers. I suggest that you Google "trailer towing accidents" before you decide to disregard these limitations.

[BruceGreeff]

On the contrary - well maintained modern small cars with sophisticated
suspension make excellent towing vehicles.
For some reason (presumably liability and driving style) manufacturers
lower the tow rating of their vehicles in the USA. The POH where the OP
lives specifies that the vehicle is good for the weight. There is a
relatively low speed limit for these trailers. Not sure which one
applies here - but either 0km/h or 110km/h are the european open road
towing limits. Under these conditions the combination is safe,
convenient, economical and normal practice. It is also a lot less work
to drive.

The massive - un aerodynamic trailer for my 19m single piece wing
Kestrel is a beast. I definitely want to be towing it with my all wheel
drive looong wheelbase Volvo with an "authoritative" 2tons on the
wheels. This has more to do with lousy trailer dynamics than general
towing. This combination has the mass, power and stability to tow the
said trailer at 140km/h if I were insane enough to do so - our freeway
limit is 120km/h and I generally stick to 100-110 - it keeps the
excitement level down.

Towing a decent European trailer with my 15m inside things were much
better with a much smaller car. Easier to drive, more controlled ride,
better aerodynamics on the tow vehicle.

The big heavy car is comparatively clumsy and has its own dynamics that
make it a little less controlled in the suspension area. The absolutely
worst towing experience I ever had was retrieving the 15m with a Jeep
Cherokee. Same combo that was stable and safe at 110km/h behind a
1200kg, 1600cc hatchback became unruly and twitchy. Why? High roll
centre, short wheelbase, off road tyres with lots of lateral distortion
- coupled with a lot of mass = unruly tow vehicle that was yanking the
trailer all over the place.

Never been able to understand the obsession with bigger is better.
Lots of folk tow long distances, very happily and safely with something
like a DSG Jetta - try it - it might be a revelation.

(and yes - I have driven a fair amount in the USA - East coast ,
Colorado mountains, California...)
--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

My (European) knowledge of cars and towing limits is a bit rusty, but for what it’s worth:

The auto company I worked for had a European tow limitation that required pulling up a 12 percent (IIRC) hill. I think it was a company standard rather than a legal requirement.

I had no direct experience of USA practice re towing limits, but in other contexts (engine performance when not towing) there was mention of American vehicles having to perform on Pikes Peak, a well known USA mountain? It may be that sort of expectation that led to lower towing limits in the USA for European vehicles – or as suggested above, it may just be caution re legal liabilities.

Another thing – not only is wheelbase a significant factor, so is rear overhang. A short wheelbase car with a long overhanging boot (Europe)/trunk (USA) is a bad combination, and leads to a low maximum stable speed above which anti-snaking has to be used – either the driver’s skill, or an anti-snake device. The latter are commonly available in Europe.

I leave to others to recommend what is best for towing in the USA, but I suspect that what we can get away with in Europe is not suitable for at least mountainous areas of the USA.

Chris N.

[cernauta]

>Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

I really never needed that.
I tow my 1300kg ArcusM Cobra trailer with a Ford C-max 1.6L TDI
diesel. That's also the max. legal towed mass for that car.
Excellent economy, excellent stabilty (surely much better than with my
partner's much heavier VW Tiguan).
Sure, we don't have many mountain passes at very hig density
altitudes, but still the turbocharged engine should cope with that. I
cross the Alps many times a year, though.

My trailer has single axle, surge brakes, and the stabilizing hitch
(it has friction pads surrounding the tow ball). The latter made quite
a difference compared to my previous set-up, which I used for years
anyway.

Speed limits in most of Europe are at 80kmh. By accepting the risk of
a moderate sanction, I usually drive at 99kmh GPS speed. At these
speeds, I hardly notice having a heavy trailer behind me.

In some countries, the limit is unchanged with car trailers, so I can
drive at up to 130kmh with no problem even when overtaking trucks.

Of course, you need to adapt your driving style to the heavy trailer.
No abrupt movements of the steering wheel, slower cruising downhill,
keep safe distance from preceding vehicles.

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 4 Oct 2012 21:34:46 -0700 (PDT), 2G >
wrote:


>Would you have the same disregard for your gliders POH? I would certainly hope not! Tow ratings are set for some VERY good reasons - don't ignore them! Furthermore, they are set with MUCH shorter trailers in mind than glider trailers. I suggest that you Google "trailer towing accidents" before you decide to disregard these limitations.


Sorry?
As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
1.500/3.000 lbs.
No need to disregard any limitation.

And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
trailer.


Andreas

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 11:34:24 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/2/2012 8:14 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > The insurance cost of adding a second vehicle with liability
>
> > insurance will only cost me $20 a year.
>
>
>
> Wow! Having my 1989 Caravan minivan on my insurance is $200/year, only
>
> $50/year cheaper than our 2002 Camry, both for liability only. What
>
> company are you with? Are you the only person on the policy?

Yes. I'm the only person on the policy and in the household. That's the reason it is so low. The logic works thus... I can only drive one car at once. The insurance company benefits when I'm paying for collision insurance on the new car while it sits in the garage and I'm off driving the old tow car that has only liability insurance.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 8:41:31 PM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>
> Hmmmm.... I had a Golf IV Variant in Germany, and it also had that
>
> 1.000 lbs limitation - but only if the trailer did not have brakes.
>
>
>
> The limit for a trailer with brakes was the mentioned 3.000 lbs limit.
>
>
>
>
>
> Could you check again if you are reading your car's manual correctly,
>
> please? I find it hard to believe that VW is limiting its cars in such
>
> a drastic way.

The USA tow limit is 1000 lbs with/without brakes. I confirmed this with VW USA.

I speculate the following reasons:

There is no common across all manufacturers standard method to rate towing capacity in the USA. Some companies set the tow limit high and some set it low.

Marketing - the Golf is marketed as a sporty car, not a workhorse. VW would prefer to sell the more profitable SUVs to people who tow trailers.

US Drivers - VW (correctly) does not trust US drivers to drive the recommended speed. US drivers do understand how kinetic energy increases as a function of speed.

US Topography - There are of course mountains in Europe, but the USA has mountains in the desert and relatively long towing distances in the desert.

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:12:15 AM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> Sorry?
> As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
> 1.500/3.000 lbs.
> No need to disregard any limitation.
> And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
> trailer.
>
> Andreas

Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...

[Andrew[_14_]]

On Monday, October 1, 2012 10:22:31 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I own a very fuel efficient car (40+ mpg) that handles the long drive to the airport at minimal cost. But my fuel efficient car is not suitable for towing a glider trailer... especially if I have to tow the trailer out of a muddy field.
>
>
>
> So if I buy a glider, do I need to trade in my very small car for something like a Subaru Forester?
>
>
>
> Do people ever form Tow Vehicle Syndicates? How does that work out?

I can confirm a 1999 2.5L Subaru Outback did very well stability and braking wise when towing our Pfeiffer trailer where as a 6cyl 1992 Camry didn't do so well. Probably due to the fatter tires, better suspension, and 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS. We could easily hit 75mph with the Subaru without any swaying.

Although, I did miss having the 6cyl engine with an extra 0.5L of displacement on the long steep grades... (Daydreaming about an H6-3.0 Outback now)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 10/6/2012 5:15 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:12:15 AM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>> Sorry?
>> As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
>> 1.500/3.000 lbs.
>> No need to disregard any limitation.
>> And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
>> trailer.
>>
>> Andreas
>
> Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...

Not so amazing - they did use a period instead of the comma. That's like
a King's X.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Tony V]

On 10/6/2012 10:19 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 10/6/2012 5:15 PM, Dave Nadler wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 6, 2012 1:12:15 AM UTC-4, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>> Sorry?
>>> As I mentioned in my posting, the limitations *in Germany* are
>>> 1.500/3.000 lbs.
>>> No need to disregard any limitation.
>>> And, no, there a re no further limitations on the length of the
>>> trailer.
>>>
>>> Andreas
>>
>> Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...
>
> Not so amazing - they did use a period instead of the comma.

As do many other countries.

Tony 6N

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sat, 6 Oct 2012 17:15:27 -0700 (PDT), Dave Nadler >
wrote:


>Amazing, the Germans are switching to lbs rather than kg now...

Sometimes one feels the need to use some kind of pidgin English to
communicate with the uneducated rest of the world. ;)

Andreas

[[email protected]]

I've been towing for many years trailer between 1 and 1.5 tons across the Alps with max 2 liter engines. Currently, my car (Saab 9-3 1.9l twin turbo diesel automatic drive) gives me 44 mpg with a 1 ton trailer and develops about 400 Nm torque - plenty enough for any situation. It is rated for 1.6 tons. With my 1 ton trailer, I don't exceed 120 kph because I don't trust the trailor tires above that speed. It's got decent brakes, too :-)
BTW, one of the criterions for trailor mass ratings is that the car must be able to start from a full stop on a 12% slope.

Having driven a lot in the US, the main difference between US and Europe cars are how the suspensions are set. A typical US-built mid-size car would be rated "crap" in Europe, and I would never think of attaching my favorite toy to it. In such a situation, I do understand the thinking of US drivers to go for big mass and big engines - what else can you do if there is no engineering?

[BruceGreeff]

Not entirely true - I have driven a hire car 1600 Mazda hatch on the
Peak to Peak route in Colorado.
It was underpowered at those kinds of altitude, and I would rather have
had a small turbo diesel. But it did the trip without any problems, in
the early spring with temperatures at -10c and over a metre of snow.

The disbelief from all the behemoth drivers was worth it.

SO - you can find European specification cars, they just appear to be
unpopular. (I had to ask very nicely before they would give me the
"little car")

Bruce

On 2012/10/08 12:31 PM, wrote:
> I've been towing for many years trailer between 1 and 1.5 tons across the Alps with max 2 liter engines. Currently, my car (Saab 9-3 1.9l twin turbo diesel automatic drive) gives me 44 mpg with a 1 ton trailer and develops about 400 Nm torque - plenty enough for any situation. It is rated for 1.6 tons. With my 1 ton trailer, I don't exceed 120 kph because I don't trust the trailor tires above that speed. It's got decent brakes, too :-)
> BTW, one of the criterions for trailor mass ratings is that the car must be able to start from a full stop on a 12% slope.
>
> Having driven a lot in the US, the main difference between US and Europe cars are how the suspensions are set. A typical US-built mid-size car would be rated "crap" in Europe, and I would never think of attaching my favorite toy to it. In such a situation, I do understand the thinking of US drivers to go for big mass and big engines - what else can you do if there is no engineering?
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[kirk.stant]

> Having driven a lot in the US, the main difference between US and Europe cars are how the suspensions are set. A typical US-built mid-size car would be rated "crap" in Europe, and I would never think of attaching my favorite toy to it. In such a situation, I do understand the thinking of US drivers to go for big mass and big engines - what else can you do if there is no engineering?

No, the main difference is that US cars have always been bigger and relatively less expensive (read - cheaper). So a lot less sophisticated.

Our driving conditions are probably somewhat different - I would guess that the average American drives a lot more distance than the average European. Our geography is responsible for that.

Also, our roads, frankly, suck. Long boring straight stretches, bad pavement, low speed limits: "you might as well have a comfortable car, cuz you can't have fun with a sporty one" seems to be the mindset.

I remember when most European cars were nasty little things - and American cars were highly desirable. Yours got better. Ours didn't, until recently, and are now starting to catch up.

Kirk
Jeep, Scion, Lexus, Mini in the family fleet. The Jeep (old Cherokee) is my favorite - and properly setup, is a decent tow vehicle that can also pull a loaded glider trailer out of a plowed field...