Qn: Italy, Ultralight aerotowing

[BergfalkeIV]

Hello,

can one of our Italian friends advise on the situation regarding aerotows behind Ultralights registered in Italy?

-is it permitted, regulated ?
-are there specific documents in addition to certification obtained in country or Origin (for example Slovenia)
-are there set requirements for the tow pilot?

I have seen reports of this having been done, but would like to find out the legal situation.

many thanks

V. Mazis

[cernauta]

The law currently allows only the towing of ultralight gliders, with
ultralight planes.

The experiments were ok even with ballasted Standard class gliders,
but the rule has been revised in the last few years.

Some of us are, in facts, exploring the legal feasibility of towing
gliders in Italy with a German registered microlight. I wouldn't bet
my money on this.

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT), BergfalkeIV >
wrote:

>Hello,
>
>can one of our Italian friends advise on the situation regarding aerotows behind Ultralights registered in Italy?
>
>-is it permitted, regulated ?
>-are there specific documents in addition to certification obtained in country or Origin (for example Slovenia)
>-are there set requirements for the tow pilot?
>
>I have seen reports of this having been done, but would like to find out the legal situation.
>
>many thanks
>
>V. Mazis

[BergfalkeIV]

Thanks, Aldo.

I was expecting an answer from you!
Do you know if the restriction comes from the ultralight legislation or the glider legislation?
Are there specific grounds for which Italy reasons differently to Germany known?

Let me make the question more provocative:

Would it be possible to operate an I-reg ultralight to tow a German glider:
i. In Italy
ii. Outside of Italy, in Germany perhaps.

Would the problem be overcome if there is a "Permit to fly, sometimes used to overcome gross weight issues, with the associated problem of a PPL license required?

http://www.pipistrel.si/news/virus-sw-100-available-as-easa-ptf-600-kg-mtow

thanks again,

Vassilios

[cernauta]

Since about two years, the regulation of "ultralight" activities is
given by the rule " DECRETO DEL PRESIDENTE DELLA REPUBBLICA 9 luglio
2010, n. 133".
At article 10 it says:

ART. 10
(Voli in formazione, traino e precedenze per il volo libero)
1. L’attività VDS in formazione è svolta dai piloti in possesso
dell’abilitazione di cui dall’articolo 11, comma 14.
2. Il pilota in possesso dell’abilitazione di cui all’articolo 11,
comma 14, può svolgere l’attività di traino aereo di apparecchi da
volo libero e di alianti VDS. L’attività di traino è consentita
con i soli apparecchi prodotti in serie ovvero in kit di montaggio,
dichiarati idonei al traino dal costruttore e autorizzati dall’Aero
Club d’Italia con apposita annotazione sul certificato
di identificazione, in conformità alle prescrizioni riportate nel
manuale di volo.

That is: the pilot of an ultralight needs an endorsement to be allowed
to tow other ultralight sailplanes or "free flight" devices (meaning
hang and para -gliders). Only planes built from factory kits or in
series production may be used for towing, if declared approved by the
factory and the approval statement printed in the certificate of the
aircraft.

The rules in Italy about ultralight flying and aircraft are very
different from those of other european countries.
If the aircraft had a Permit-to-fly, then it would be registered with
the ENAC, not the AeCI; it would then be operated under the rules of
General Aviation, so you would need a PPL, not a VDS license. These
are two completely different worlds.
The above "decreto" would not apply. The only advantage would be the
reduced fuel costs for such an aircraft. The legislative burden, and
the costs for getting and renewing a PPL would be those typical of
General Aviation.

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it




On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 02:32:04 -0700 (PDT), BergfalkeIV >
wrote:

>
>Thanks, Aldo.
>
>I was expecting an answer from you!
>Do you know if the restriction comes from the ultralight legislation or the glider legislation?
>Are there specific grounds for which Italy reasons differently to Germany known?
>
>Let me make the question more provocative:
>
>Would it be possible to operate an I-reg ultralight to tow a German glider:
>i. In Italy
>ii. Outside of Italy, in Germany perhaps.
>
>Would the problem be overcome if there is a "Permit to fly, sometimes used to overcome gross weight issues, with the associated problem of a PPL license required?
>
>http://www.pipistrel.si/news/virus-sw-100-available-as-easa-ptf-600-kg-mtow
>
>thanks again,
>
>Vassilios

[BergfalkeIV]

Once again, thanks.

in the translation:

"Only planes built from factory kits or in
series production may be used for towing, if declared approved by the
factory and the approval statement printed in the certificate of the
aircraft".

I am somewhat unclear about whether it applies to the preceding sentence(ultralight gliders) or in general.

The Virus SW 100, for example, is certified for heavy tows by the manufacturer, the LBA and is in series production, could that be used to tow "normal" gliders?

Vassilios

at 3Euro/lt for 100LL,
you can understand the motivation

[cernauta]

On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:50:41 -0700 (PDT), BergfalkeIV >
wrote:

>I am somewhat unclear about whether it applies to the preceding sentence(ultralight gliders) or in general.

to the preceding sentence.

>
>The Virus SW 100, for example, is certified for heavy tows by the manufacturer, the LBA and is in series production, could that be used to tow "normal" gliders?

Yes, if it's registered as an aircraft (I-ABCD) and the pilot holds a
PPL with towing endorsment;
No, if as an ultralight (I-1234) under the Rule106 - DPR 133 (VDS,
Volo Diporto Sportivo, usually referred to as "ultralight flying"), no
matter what licence the pilot holds.

I guess some people are still occasionally towing gliders with
ultralights, probably because they have an agreement from an insurance
company. Nevertheless, this is outside the boundaries stated by the
rule, and if an accident happens, things might get very complicated in
the court.

It is also possible if it's registered in another EU country, but then
you might find serious problems when it comes to towing a glider used
for basic training with a pupil on board of the glider.

>
>Vassilios
>
>at 3Euro/lt for 100LL,
>you can understand the motivation

of course.
There are certified conversion kits for Avgas on Robin dr400s, also.
The Aerospool Dynamic is an example of a widely used light towplane.
With the correct propeller and given it's not a difficult day, it can
run the job just as well as a Robin, with much lower costs.

From my point of view, and after my own direct few experiences, all
ultralights need some more power to tow gliders efficiently, reliably
and safely. I think some new engines of about 130 HP output have a
great potential. One of them is built in Italy, the MetalWork B22R
engine. http://www.mwfly.it/index_file/B22RAERO.htm (I have no
connection with them).


aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it

[BergfalkeIV]

Let's hope it may be revised in the future.

thanks,

Vassilios

BTW, the engine sounds like a good project.

[kirk.stant]

Pawnees rule!

Kirk
66

[BergfalkeIV]

Τη Î*Î*μπτη, 18 ΟκτωβÏ�ίου 2012 2:52:48 Ï€.μ. UTC+3, ο χÏ�ήστης kirk.stant Î*γÏ�αψε:
> Pawnees rule!
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66


OK,

lets see how you happy you will be should fuel prices hit 12 $/gallon.

VM

[kirk.stant]

As a tow pilot, I'm really leery of towing with an ultralight, especially heavy glass off grass on a rowdy day. It may cost more but its probably a lot safer - and more comfortable. If cost is the issue use a winch!

And if it doesnt have a tailwheel, forget about it! ;^)

Kirk
66

[Mike the Strike]

I witnessed a tricycle Virus (essentially a short wingspan Lambada) towing at the World's in South Africa over ten years ago - that was at high density altitude, but from a very looong runway. Take-off runs were notably long, but otherwise the tows looked fine. It would be interesting to hear reports from any participants.

My own perspective is that power rules (maybe I've lived in the USA too long!) and that the quicker I can get away from the ground and off tow the better! I have fond memories of my ASW-20 being dragged skyward by an Ag-Cat that, if I remember correctly, had a giant radial engine of more than 450HP..

Mike

[BruceGreeff]

Mike - The AG Cat would have had the R1300 engine. LOTS of power.

HAve towed behind Samba and Lambada here.

Both are fine for 15m single seaters. Actually much nicer to tow behind
with a dry 15m club class glider - very nice and smooth. Hot and high -
at over 5100 feet MSL and 25+ centigrade +2.5kt on the vario.

The excess power is limited, but you don't need huge amounts to climb.
Just 20-30 hp extra, and a tug that climbs well in the speed range you
tow at.

Would be somewhat cautious with a heavy glider because of that slow
initial acceleration. Especially on grass.

However - the available performance is quite remarkable.
Have seen a Janus (now there is a heavy 2 seater if ever there was one)
Launched behind one of these 100hp Lambadas.
5100" MSL (at Magaliesburg)
24 Centigrade
2 "well rounded" pilots on board Janus.
P1 inadvertently released the drag chute during the launch.
There the combination is, maintaining height but heading away from the
field at 50 feet AGL, over the rocks trees and power lines, and clearly
in some trouble.
Tug pilot was obliged to exceed redline on the engine by a couple of
hundred RPM to get a positive climb and turn back.
Tuggie saw the parachute's shadow on the turn back, took the Janus to
over the numbers at 100" and released. Janus pilot was surprised at how
much stick forward was required to maintain approach speed.

No Rotax was damaged in the production of the little drama, the only
damage was to some egos.

Note to self - don't do stupid things on the day there is a national
association meeting happening at your club...



On 2012/10/18 10:08 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I witnessed a tricycle Virus (essentially a short wingspan Lambada) towing at the World's in South Africa over ten years ago - that was at high density altitude, but from a very looong runway. Take-off runs were notably long, but otherwise the tows looked fine. It would be interesting to hear reports from any participants.
>
> My own perspective is that power rules (maybe I've lived in the USA too long!) and that the quicker I can get away from the ground and off tow the better! I have fond memories of my ASW-20 being dragged skyward by an Ag-Cat that, if I remember correctly, had a giant radial engine of more than 450HP.
>
> Mike
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:08:17 -0700, Mike the Strike wrote:

> My own perspective is that power rules (maybe I've lived in the USA too
> long!) and that the quicker I can get away from the ground and off tow
> the better! I have fond memories of my ASW-20 being dragged skyward by
> an Ag-Cat that, if I remember correctly, had a giant radial engine of
> more than 450HP.
>
A solo launch behind a Zlin 137T could be short and sweet too. Thats the
towplane that launched 9 Blanik L-13s as a single aero tow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAdIkB5rbgo in case you haven't seen it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[kirk.stant]

On Oct 21, 5:21*am, BruceGreeff > wrote:
> Mike - The AG Cat would have had the R1300 engine. LOTS of power.

The AgCat Mike is referring to had a supercharged Wright R-975,
probably around 500hp. Rare combination, most AgCats had/have P&W
R-985s (450hp) or R-1340s (600hp), and even heard of some with Wright
R-1820s (1200hp!). And of course, many now have P&W PT-6 turboprops.

I asked the owner about the unusual engine, and he said that due to it
being supercharged more than the equivalent Pratt, it was better at
the high Parowan summer density altitudes. Towing behind it was like
being pulled by a helicopter! At low tow, all you saw above was sky
and wings - lots of wings!

My then future wife said she loved attaching the towrope to the AgCat
because of the sound it made - like a bunch of Harleys all idling
together.

That particular AgCat was later destroyed in an accident straight out
of the movie "North by Northwest"...so I hear ;^)

Kirk
66

[BruceGreeff]

Sorry - wrong ag plane - it was the Ayres Thrush fitted with the R-1300.


On 2012/10/21 3:46 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Oct 21, 5:21 am, BruceGreeff > wrote:
>> Mike - The AG Cat would have had the R1300 engine. LOTS of power.
>
> The AgCat Mike is referring to had a supercharged Wright R-975,
> probably around 500hp. Rare combination, most AgCats had/have P&W
> R-985s (450hp) or R-1340s (600hp), and even heard of some with Wright
> R-1820s (1200hp!). And of course, many now have P&W PT-6 turboprops.
>
> I asked the owner about the unusual engine, and he said that due to it
> being supercharged more than the equivalent Pratt, it was better at
> the high Parowan summer density altitudes. Towing behind it was like
> being pulled by a helicopter! At low tow, all you saw above was sky
> and wings - lots of wings!
>
> My then future wife said she loved attaching the towrope to the AgCat
> because of the sound it made - like a bunch of Harleys all idling
> together.
>
> That particular AgCat was later destroyed in an accident straight out
> of the movie "North by Northwest"...so I hear ;^)
>
> Kirk
> 66
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

[kirk.stant]

Interesting. The only other plane I ever heard of using the R-1300 was the original Air Force T-28A. Ive got a few hours in a friends T-28B with the big 1450 hp R-1820 - now that is a nice plane!

Kirk
66

[Mike the Strike]

Bruce:

I am very familiar with the runway at Magaliesburg and have had some anxious moments myself over the kopje and power lines to the north when launching my heavily ballasted Jantar-1 with a weak tug (I seem to remember a 150HP Cub?), especially when the grass was a bit long. It's also possible that I have flown the Janus of which you speak (there aren't many in South Africa). Heavy, yes, but a decent cross-country ship.

I am surprised the Lambada does as well at towing (I have flown an identical 100HP Lambada) and while it does perform well, I wouldn't have expected enough surplus thrust for towing, especially a Janus

Mike

[BruceGreeff]

The Janus is ZS-GSX - tail number SX - original Janus prototype.
Lambada does just fine - regularly tows G103 and Janus in the berg.
I am sure everyone would prefer more excess power - but it does the job.
With a single seater - as I said it is at least as good as the more
battered of the clubs 180hp Super cubs were.

With that one I have been 50 foot over the winch looking up at the
Orient hills ridge with the Kestrel...

Said Cub was recently retired in favour of a Cessna 182 with lots of
power and an insatiable affinity for avgas.

Bruce

On 2012/10/22 3:03 AM, Mike the Strike wrote:
> Bruce:
>
> I am very familiar with the runway at Magaliesburg and have had some anxious moments myself over the kopje and power lines to the north when launching my heavily ballasted Jantar-1 with a weak tug (I seem to remember a 150HP Cub?), especially when the grass was a bit long. It's also possible that I have flown the Janus of which you speak (there aren't many in South Africa). Heavy, yes, but a decent cross-country ship.
>
> I am surprised the Lambada does as well at towing (I have flown an identical 100HP Lambada) and while it does perform well, I wouldn't have expected enough surplus thrust for towing, especially a Janus
>
> Mike
>

--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771