FLARM presentation

[[email protected]]

In your opinion...

Comparing the Butterfly panel mount round or rectangular and the LXNAV Flarmview FLARM displays, which offers largest, clearest, and most visible presentation?

Is the FLARM display on a large screen glide computer (i.e. ClearNav or LX9000) more readable than a dedicated FLARM display?

Or perhaps an off-panel PNA display like XCSoar, SeeYou, or LK8000 is better?

I hope Tim Mara @ Wings and Wheels, Paul Remde @ Cumulus Soaring, and Richard @ CraggyAero will comment.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Oct 15, 9:34*am, wrote:
> In your opinion...
>
> Comparing the Butterfly panel mount round or rectangular and the LXNAV Flarmview FLARM displays, which offers largest, clearest, and most visible presentation?
>
> Is the FLARM display on a large screen glide computer (i.e. ClearNav or LX9000) more readable than a dedicated FLARM display?
>
> Or perhaps an off-panel PNA display like XCSoar, SeeYou, or LK8000 is better?
>
> I hope Tim Mara @ Wings and Wheels, Paul Remde @ Cumulus Soaring, and Richard @ CraggyAero will comment.

Depends what it is you want to see, I think.

I can comment on the 57mm panel mount Butterfly display and ClearNav.

The 57mm display gives an adequate presentation for flarm to flarm
anti-collision provided it is on the top row of instruments in your
panel, you have "normal" hearing, a "normal" sailplane cockpit noise
background and 20/20 vision at whatever distance your panel is. For
everything else (pcas, flarm radar) it's not so hot. One hopes that
this will improve with future firmware releases, but the display area
is pretty damned small.

ClearNav does a split screen presentation with audio for flarm to
flarm anti-collision that is intuitive and attention getting. The
flarm display uses the top half of the CN display and like everything
else ClearNav, it's big, bold, easy and quick to read. This is in
alpha/beta testing now, but it's coming right along. PCAS alerts are
in development, but not yet released. Flarm "Radar" information is
presented as glider silhouettes on the map display, with correct
orientation for direction of travel, correct relative position and
text display of relative altitude and climb/descent rate, easiest to
see when the zoom is set to "2 miles" on the focus box. This is all
working pretty well in latest alpha software.

-Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav

[Andy[_1_]]

Isn't your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
audio alerting?

GY

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

The screen size is (I'm pretty sure) identical on the 3 remote FLARM
displays you mentioned.

The Butterfly rectangular and 57 mm round displays have the exact same
screen and same software.

The speaker on the Butterfly round 57 mm unit is reputed to be much louder
than the one in the rectangular display.

The speaker in the LXNAV FlarmView is extremely loud (in a good way).

The screen brightness is similar. The Butterfly displays is slightly
brighter indoors and the LXNAV FlarmView is slightly brighter outdoors in
bright sunlight.

The LXNAV FlarmView can display climb rate or relative altitude or
competition ID on the moving map near targets - which is nice.

The LXNAV FlarmView can display the screen as black with white markings, or
white with black markings.

The user-interface for all units is very simple - in my opinion.

I have all 3 displays in stock and can show them to you with my web cam over
Skype.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

wrote in message
...

In your opinion...

Comparing the Butterfly panel mount round or rectangular and the LXNAV
Flarmview FLARM displays, which offers largest, clearest, and most visible
presentation?

Is the FLARM display on a large screen glide computer (i.e. ClearNav or
LX9000) more readable than a dedicated FLARM display?

Or perhaps an off-panel PNA display like XCSoar, SeeYou, or LK8000 is
better?

I hope Tim Mara @ Wings and Wheels, Paul Remde @ Cumulus Soaring, and
Richard @ CraggyAero will comment.

[[email protected]]

Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.

On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
> Isn't your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> audio alerting?
>
>
>
> GY

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:04:01 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.
>
>
>
> On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> > Isn't your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> >
>
> > audio alerting?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > GY

If you already have a ClearNav and were going to add a Flarm Brick, do you need a dedicated Flarm display as well on your panel, or does the ClearNav show the needed information just fine by itself? Opinions?

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Oct 15, 4:43*pm, wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:04:01 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> > Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.
>
> > On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> > > Isn't *your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> > > audio alerting?
>
> > > GY
>
> If you already have a ClearNav and were going to add a Flarm Brick, do you need a dedicated Flarm display as well on your panel, or does the ClearNav show the needed information just fine by itself? Opinions?

ClearNav flarm interface is still in development. The latest publicly
available beta is 2.2.0.25 and this has several known issues with
flarm (most apparent in a really high density flarm environment). I
am flying 2.2.0.31alpha and it's much better and quite stable, but
still does not include pcas alerts or the ability to switch flarm into
stealth mode. I'll see about getting a later version posted to the
website. We're not quite ready to say we can replace the dedicated PF
display.

Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav Instruments

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 15, 2012 5:53:44 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Oct 15, 4:43*pm, wrote:
>
> > On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:04:01 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
>
> > > Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > Isn't *your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> >
>
> > > > audio alerting?
>
> >
>
> > > > GY
>
> >
>
> > If you already have a ClearNav and were going to add a Flarm Brick, do you need a dedicated Flarm display as well on your panel, or does the ClearNav show the needed information just fine by itself? Opinions?
>
>
>
> ClearNav flarm interface is still in development. The latest publicly
>
> available beta is 2.2.0.25 and this has several known issues with
>
> flarm (most apparent in a really high density flarm environment). I
>
> am flying 2.2.0.31alpha and it's much better and quite stable, but
>
> still does not include pcas alerts or the ability to switch flarm into
>
> stealth mode. I'll see about getting a later version posted to the
>
> website. We're not quite ready to say we can replace the dedicated PF
>
> display.
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav Instruments

update: Mode C/S & ADSB almost ready for public release. Inclination is to hold off on next public release until all that works.

Evan Ludeman for CNi

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Monday, October 15, 2012 5:53:44 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Oct 15, 4:43*pm, wrote:
>
> > On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:04:01 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
>
> > > Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > Isn't *your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> >
>
> > > > audio alerting?
>
> >
>
> > > > GY
>
> >
>
> > If you already have a ClearNav and were going to add a Flarm Brick, do you need a dedicated Flarm display as well on your panel, or does the ClearNav show the needed information just fine by itself? Opinions?
>
>
>
> ClearNav flarm interface is still in development. The latest publicly
>
> available beta is 2.2.0.25 and this has several known issues with
>
> flarm (most apparent in a really high density flarm environment). I
>
> am flying 2.2.0.31alpha and it's much better and quite stable, but
>
> still does not include pcas alerts or the ability to switch flarm into
>
> stealth mode. I'll see about getting a later version posted to the
>
> website. We're not quite ready to say we can replace the dedicated PF
>
> display.
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav Instruments

update: Mode C/S & ADSB almost ready for public release. Inclination is to hold off on next release until this is all tested.

Evan Ludeman for CNi

[Richard[_9_]]

On Monday, October 15, 2012 6:34:01 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> In your opinion... Comparing the Butterfly panel mount round or rectangular and the LXNAV Flarmview FLARM displays, which offers largest, clearest, and most visible presentation? Is the FLARM display on a large screen glide computer (i.e. ClearNav or LX9000) more readable than a dedicated FLARM display? Or perhaps an off-panel PNA display like XCSoar, SeeYou, or LK8000 is better? I hope Tim Mara @ Wings and Wheels, Paul Remde @ Cumulus Soaring, and Richard @ CraggyAero will comment.

PowerFlarm dispays very nicley on the Ultimate Le running SeeYou PNA or any device running SeeYou Mobile. I tried this first in Sept of 2011. No Betas on this hardware and software.

Flarm traffic can be displayed in a variety of colors depending on altitude.. Altitude and climb rate are displayed next to the flarm gliders. You can change the size and symbol of the flarm traffic. If you lose a lock on the traffic it can be displayed as a dot for a time that you set. You can fly to this dot and zoom in on the thermal track. Zoom is extremely fast on the Ultimate Le. Traffic is seen consistenly 4 to 6 nuatical miles. ADS-B Much further out.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Flarm Threat traffic is show on a white bank on the top of the screen you get a loud warning and the Voice Lady warns you of traffic. "traffic 5 Oclock 50 feet High"

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 15, 2012 8:37:04 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2012 5:53:44 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > On Oct 15, 4:43*pm, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:04:01 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > > Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > Isn't *your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > audio alerting?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > GY
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > If you already have a ClearNav and were going to add a Flarm Brick, do you need a dedicated Flarm display as well on your panel, or does the ClearNav show the needed information just fine by itself? Opinions?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ClearNav flarm interface is still in development. The latest publicly
>
> >
>
> > available beta is 2.2.0.25 and this has several known issues with
>
> >
>
> > flarm (most apparent in a really high density flarm environment). I
>
> >
>
> > am flying 2.2.0.31alpha and it's much better and quite stable, but
>
> >
>
> > still does not include pcas alerts or the ability to switch flarm into
>
> >
>
> > stealth mode. I'll see about getting a later version posted to the
>
> >
>
> > website. We're not quite ready to say we can replace the dedicated PF
>
> >
>
> > display.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav Instruments
>
>
>
> update: Mode C/S & ADSB almost ready for public release. Inclination is to hold off on next release until this is all tested.
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman for CNi

Evan:

Just to clarify: the intent of the CN development is that CN will be able to completely substitute for a dedicated flarm display. Is this correct?

Like many others, I'm staring at this pile of flarm stuff in a box, with all its (ha ha) well thought out installation options... and if I could just dispense with the display that would be fantastic. Knowing where the CN development process is going helps a lot. Nothing has to work until spring.

John Cochrane

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I don't think SeeYou Mobile can display Mode C/S traffic yet. Please
correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure it will be able to in the future, but
until then, an external display is highly recommended.

Paul Remde

"Richard" wrote in message
...

On Monday, October 15, 2012 6:34:01 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
> In your opinion... Comparing the Butterfly panel mount round or
> rectangular and the LXNAV Flarmview FLARM displays, which offers largest,
> clearest, and most visible presentation? Is the FLARM display on a large
> screen glide computer (i.e. ClearNav or LX9000) more readable than a
> dedicated FLARM display? Or perhaps an off-panel PNA display like XCSoar,
> SeeYou, or LK8000 is better? I hope Tim Mara @ Wings and Wheels, Paul
> Remde @ Cumulus Soaring, and Richard @ CraggyAero will comment.

PowerFlarm dispays very nicley on the Ultimate Le running SeeYou PNA or any
device running SeeYou Mobile. I tried this first in Sept of 2011. No Betas
on this hardware and software.

Flarm traffic can be displayed in a variety of colors depending on altitude.
Altitude and climb rate are displayed next to the flarm gliders. You can
change the size and symbol of the flarm traffic. If you lose a lock on the
traffic it can be displayed as a dot for a time that you set. You can fly
to this dot and zoom in on the thermal track. Zoom is extremely fast on the
Ultimate Le. Traffic is seen consistenly 4 to 6 nuatical miles. ADS-B
Much further out.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Flarm Threat traffic is show on a white bank on the top of the screen you
get a loud warning and the Voice Lady warns you of traffic. "traffic 5
Oclock 50 feet High"

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Oct 16, 9:58*am, wrote:
> On Monday, October 15, 2012 8:37:04 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> > On Monday, October 15, 2012 5:53:44 PM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 15, 4:43*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 1:04:01 PM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
>
> > > > > Andy you are correct and thank you for correcting the question. Being able to hear an alert before you "eyes on" an alert is most important.
>
> > > > > On Monday, October 15, 2012 10:33:41 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> > > > > > Isn't *your question is incomplete without asking for a comparison of
>
> > > > > > audio alerting?
>
> > > > > > GY
>
> > > > If you already have a ClearNav and were going to add a Flarm Brick, do you need a dedicated Flarm display as well on your panel, or does the ClearNav show the needed information just fine by itself? Opinions?
>
> > > ClearNav flarm interface is still in development. *The latest publicly
>
> > > available beta is 2.2.0.25 and this has several known issues with
>
> > > flarm (most apparent in a really high density flarm environment). *I
>
> > > am flying 2.2.0.31alpha and it's much better and quite stable, but
>
> > > still does not include pcas alerts or the ability to switch flarm into
>
> > > stealth mode. *I'll see about getting a later version posted to the
>
> > > website. *We're not quite ready to say we can replace the dedicated PF
>
> > > display.
>
> > > Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav Instruments
>
> > update: *Mode C/S & ADSB almost ready for public release. *Inclination is to hold off on next release until this is all tested.
>
> > Evan Ludeman for CNi
>
> Evan:
>
> Just to clarify: the intent of the CN development is that CN will be able to *completely substitute for a dedicated flarm display. Is this correct?
>
> Like many others, I'm staring at this pile of flarm stuff in a box, with all its *(ha ha) well thought out installation options... and if I could just dispense with the display that would be fantastic. Knowing where the CN development process is going helps a lot. Nothing has to work until spring.
>
> John Cochrane

Yes. CN will display all of the information and alerts provided by
powerflarm, with audio, and you can bet that we'll do a better job of
it than these tiny little displays from flarm and butterfly. This is
all nearly finished.

Evan Ludeman on behalf of ClearNav Instruments

[Andy[_1_]]

On Oct 16, 10:02*am, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
>
> Yes. *CN will display all of the information and alerts provided by
> powerflarm, with audio, and you can bet that we'll do a better job of
> it than these tiny little displays from flarm and butterfly. *This is
> all nearly finished.
>

Don't have CN but curious to know if the volume of the alerting will
be automatically adjusted based on ambient noise level or (less
preferably) airspeed.

In my opinion the 302 would have been much improved by automatic
volume control.

Andy

[guy]

This is a very good point. Volume of audio warning and alerts.
The 302 has a fatal flaw with regards to the gear warning system. The
volume of the gear warning is tied to the general audio control.
Some people (I am one) turn all the audio system off except the radio
when entering the pattern for a landing. The less distractions the
better. Guess what? That means the gear warning system won't help me
if I need it.
Now I have an independent system who's volume can't be changed by me
when flying.
Guy

[Richard[_9_]]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 9:34:27 AM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi, I don't think SeeYou Mobile can display Mode C/S traffic yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure it will be able to in the future, but until then, an external display is highly recommended. Paul Remde "Richard" wrote in message news On Monday, October 15, 2012 6:34:01 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote: > In your opinion... Comparing the Butterfly panel mount round or > rectangular and the LXNAV Flarmview FLARM displays, which offers largest, > clearest, and most visible presentation? Is the FLARM display on a large > screen glide computer (i.e. ClearNav or LX9000) more readable than a > dedicated FLARM display? Or perhaps an off-panel PNA display like XCSoar, > SeeYou, or LK8000 is better? I hope Tim Mara @ Wings and Wheels, Paul > Remde @ Cumulus Soaring, and Richard @ CraggyAero will comment. PowerFlarm dispays very nicley on the Ultimate Le running SeeYou PNA or any device running SeeYou Mobile. I tried this first in Sept of 2011. No Betas on this hardware and software. Flarm traffic can be displayed in a variety of colors depending on altitude. Altitude and climb rate are displayed next to the flarm gliders. You can change the size and symbol of the flarm traffic. If you lose a lock on the traffic it can be displayed as a dot for a time that you set. You can fly to this dot and zoom in on the thermal track. Zoom is extremely fast on the Ultimate Le. Traffic is seen consistenly 4 to 6 nuatical miles. ADS-B Much further out. Richard www.craggyaero.com Flarm Threat traffic is show on a white bank on the top of the screen you get a loud warning and the Voice Lady warns you of traffic. "traffic 5 Oclock 50 feet High"

Paul,

SeeYou Mobile will not show Mode C/S. I don't believe I said it would.

The Butterfly will show only the closest Mode C/S that is interrogate. Keys words are closest and interrogated.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dave Springford]

The Powerflarm target display on the LX 9000/8000 is good enough that another display is not required.

The flarm targets and ADS-B targets are currently displayed and I am working with LX Nav to see the Mode C/S targets. The biggest problem is the soaring season is now over up north here and I don't know if I will get a chance to fly again before the spring to check it the fix they sent to me.

On the 9000 main display, flarm and ADS-B targets are shown with glider or jet symbols moving in the direction of the target and beside each target are the difference in altitude from your altitude and the climb rate. You also have the ability to colour code the targets so that gliders above, below and near your altitude show as different colours on the screen. I found this helps, by knowing when to look up for a gaggle or down.

When a collision alert is received from the Powerflarm, the top inch of the 9000 screen displays the standard flarm clock display as well as text showing the distance, altitude difference and clock position.

The information can also be reported by the LX voice module as "Warning, traffic 11 O'clock, Warning ..."

The LCD screen of the V5 vario can be set to also show the flarm clock when a collision alert is received from the flarm. The clock on the V5 is much bigger than on the main screen and also shows the above/below symbol and distance to the target in ft (m).

All in all, I am very happy with the brick/9000 combination in my glider. I was able to see targets on the map out to about 10 miles and I found it particularly useful during the start period in Uvalde to keep track of the locations of the various start gaggles across the 10 km start line.

Dave Springford
www.foxonecorp.com

[Morteza Ansari]

Thanks for the info Dave. Just to confirm, in your setup you don't have any of the dedicated screens and all configuration/display is done via the 9000? Sounds like a simple and very nice setup. My biggest problem with the external display so far has been the "wrong" polarization which makes it impractical to install it horizontally and was blocking me from adding that to my panel. But if the flight computer can act as the sole interface, it would solve the problem.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 5:15:46 PM UTC-7, Dave Springford wrote:
> The Powerflarm target display on the LX 9000/8000 is good enough that another display is not required. The flarm targets and ADS-B targets are currently displayed and I am working with LX Nav to see the Mode C/S targets. The biggest problem is the soaring season is now over up north here and I don't know if I will get a chance to fly again before the spring to check it the fix they sent to me. On the 9000 main display, flarm and ADS-B targets are shown with glider or jet symbols moving in the direction of the target and beside each target are the difference in altitude from your altitude and the climb rate. You also have the ability to colour code the targets so that gliders above, below and near your altitude show as different colours on the screen. I found this helps, by knowing when to look up for a gaggle or down. When a collision alert is received from the Powerflarm, the top inch of the 9000 screen displays the standard flarm clock display as well as text showing the distance, altitude difference and clock position. The information can also be reported by the LX voice module as "Warning, traffic 11 O'clock, Warning ..." The LCD screen of the V5 vario can be set to also show the flarm clock when a collision alert is received from the flarm. The clock on the V5 is much bigger than on the main screen and also shows the above/below symbol and distance to the target in ft (m). All in all, I am very happy with the brick/9000 combination in my glider. I was able to see targets on the map out to about 10 miles and I found it particularly useful during the start period in Uvalde to keep track of the locations of the various start gaggles across the 10 km start line. Dave Springford www.foxonecorp.com

Dave,

I beleive the flarm displayed on the LX9000/8000/8080 is similar to that displayed on all SeeYou Mobile devices including the Ultimate Le and Oudie. I have communicated with Naviter about the Mode C/S target display.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Dave Springford]

Hi Morteza,

That is correct, no other display is attached to the powerflarm. All information is displayed on either the map screen or the V5 vario screen. The LX also provides the power directly to the PF, so you don't need to install a separate circuit, just plug it into the LX and it goes. (Of course you need the correct LX-flarm cable)

For Richard, Good to hear that the Mode C/S is being worked on from other angles too. It would seem to me that it will all be resolved by next season..

Dave Springford
www.foxonecorp.com

[Ramy]

This is a bit off topic but the comment that the 302 gear alarm is volume controlled is incorrect, at least in my installation. The gear alarm is very loud regardless of the volume control. And it already paid for itself...

Ramy

[bumper[_4_]]

On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:45:12 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> This is a bit off topic but the comment that the 302 gear alarm is volume controlled is incorrect, at least in my installation. The gear alarm is very loud regardless of the volume control. And it already paid for itself...
>
>
>
> Ramy

Correct. I remember from the installation manual that alarms automatically have increased volume. I've tested it many times, though never in anger . . .

There are two paint dots on the cockpit side near the gear handle, green and red, to remind my hypoxic, dehydrated mind which way the handle should be.


bumper

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 10/21/2012 9:43 PM, bumper wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 17, 2012 10:45:12 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>> This is a bit off topic but the comment that the 302 gear alarm is
>> volume controlled is incorrect, at least in my installation. The
>> gear alarm is very loud regardless of the volume control. And it
>> already paid for itself...
>>
>>
>>
>> Ramy
>
> Correct. I remember from the installation manual that alarms
> automatically have increased volume. I've tested it many times,
> though never in anger . . .
>
> There are two paint dots on the cockpit side near the gear handle,
> green and red, to remind my hypoxic, dehydrated mind which way the
> handle should be.

Here's my best simulation of my hypoxic mind: "Green means GO, so that
must be GEAR IS UP"; "Red means DANGER, so that must be GEAR IS UP".

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)