Offering the Middle-digit Salute in Response to Brazil

[Larry Dighera]

Proof, that what goes around, comes around:


-------------------------------------------------------------------
AVflash Volume 10, Number 04a -- January 19, 2004
-------------------------------------------------------------------

....AND BIRD-FLIPPING PILOT RILES BRAZILIANS
Capt. Dale Robin Hersh discovered the Brazilian authorities' preferred
level of etiquette after last Wednesday allegedly offering the
middle-digit salute in response to Brazil's new requirement that
American visitors submit to photographs and fingerprinting ... which
is how Brazilians are welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules.
Hersh's alleged gesture (maybe that's how he always holds things)
landed him in a federal courthouse where formal charges awaited, but
"Since this was a minor crime, I proposed that he be fined $12,750,
which will be donated to a home for the elderly," Matheus Baraldi
Magnani told the Associated Press.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/181-full.html#186508

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Proof, that what goes around, comes around:
>

What is it that you believe is coming around?

[Chuck]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Proof, that what goes around, comes around:
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> AVflash Volume 10, Number 04a -- January 19, 2004
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ...AND BIRD-FLIPPING PILOT RILES BRAZILIANS
> Capt. Dale Robin Hersh discovered the Brazilian authorities' preferred
> level of etiquette after last Wednesday allegedly offering the
> middle-digit salute in response to Brazil's new requirement that
> American visitors submit to photographs and fingerprinting ... which
> is how Brazilians are welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules.
> Hersh's alleged gesture (maybe that's how he always holds things)
> landed him in a federal courthouse where formal charges awaited, but
> "Since this was a minor crime, I proposed that he be fined $12,750,
> which will be donated to a home for the elderly," Matheus Baraldi
> Magnani told the Associated Press.
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/181-full.html#186508
>


Larry,

YOU are the one crying and whining about off topic post, yet, 90% of YOUR
post have been off topic.

Maybe YOU need to read and understand the charter...

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:37:51 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in Message-Id:
et>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Proof, that what goes around, comes around:
>>
>
>What is it that you believe is coming around?
>

The article contained this bit of information:

"Brazil's new requirement that American visitors submit to
photographs and fingerprinting ... which is how Brazilians are
welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules."

I would say that the U.S. instituted practice of fingerprinting and
photographing airline passengers entering our country may spark
similar indignities for U.S. passengers entering foreign countries.

Additionally, the unprofessional conduct of Capt. Dale Robin Hersh
earned him the fine he deserved IMO.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> The article contained this bit of information:
>
> "Brazil's new requirement that American visitors submit to
> photographs and fingerprinting ... which is how Brazilians are
> welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules."
>
> I would say that the U.S. instituted practice of fingerprinting and
> photographing airline passengers entering our country may spark
> similar indignities for U.S. passengers entering foreign countries.
>

But why just for US passengers? The US didn't single out Brazil or any
other individual country, the requirement applies to all passengers not
otherwise documented.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:30:57 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in Message-Id:
. net>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> The article contained this bit of information:
>>
>> "Brazil's new requirement that American visitors submit to
>> photographs and fingerprinting ... which is how Brazilians are
>> welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules."
>>
>> I would say that the U.S. instituted practice of fingerprinting and
>> photographing airline passengers entering our country may spark
>> similar indignities for U.S. passengers entering foreign countries.
>>
>
>But why just for US passengers? The US didn't single out Brazil or any
>other individual country, the requirement applies to all passengers not
>otherwise documented.

What does your phrase "not otherwise documented" mean? Other than
what? Aren't all international travelers required to possess a
Passport?

Are you saying that ALL airline passengers entering the US are
currently being fingerprinted and photographed? If so, this is the
first I've heard of that practice being instituted.

Your reply implies that you believe that Brazil has "singled out" US
passengers for fingerprinting and photographing. Are you able to
provide a credible citation substantiating that contention? The
quoted article's lack of explicitly stating that Brazil is requiring
fingerprinting and photographing _solely_ of US passengers is
ambiguous IMO.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> What does your phrase "not otherwise documented" mean? Other than
> what? Aren't all international travelers required to possess a
> Passport?
>

No, not all international travelers entering the US are required to possess
a passport.


>
> Are you saying that ALL airline passengers entering the US are
> currently being fingerprinted and photographed? If so, this is the
> first I've heard of that practice being instituted.
>

No, I'm not saying that ALL airline passengers entering the US are currently
being fingerprinted and photographed. Many nations are exempt, but Brazil
isn't one of them. There are several requirements to be exempt. The nation
must issue passports that can be scanned by machine, they must also
''demonstrate that adequate safeguards against fraudulent use of their
passports are in place.'' Forged documents are apparently easy to come by
in Brazil.


>
> Your reply implies that you believe that Brazil has "singled out" US
> passengers for fingerprinting and photographing. Are you able to
> provide a credible citation substantiating that contention?
>

"Brazil began on Jan. 1 to fingerprint and photograph all American citizens
arriving here in response to Washington's new policy, which went into effect
on Jan. 5. A judge in a remote state said the action was necessary because
U.S. policy was ''xenophobic and worthy of the worst horrors of the Nazis,''
and the Foreign Ministry endorsed his order, arguing that ''reciprocity is a
basic element of foreign relations.''


http://www.iht.com/articles/124703.html

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>
> reciprocal.
>

I think that would be valid if Brazil took the same steps for the same
reasons, but it appears they're taking them just because they're ****ed off.

[Ron Natalie]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message link.net...
>
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > reciprocal.
> >
>
> I think that would be valid if Brazil took the same steps for the same
> reasons, but it appears they're taking them just because they're ****ed off.

That's diplomacy for you. We do the same thing on other issues (tariffs etc...).

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:45:35 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in Message-Id:
et>:

>Forged documents are apparently easy to come by
>in Brazil.

The NYT article to which you kindly provided the URL below states:

"American officials said that Brazil is second only to Mexico in
what are known as "expedited removals" because of false
documentation or misrepresentation at U.S. ports of entry"

False documentation seems a good criterion to apply to requiring
fingerprinting and photographing of international visitors.

It would seem that Brazil's emotional response to the change in US
policy may negatively impact Brazil's Carnival revenues. Talk about,
"out of the frying pan ...."

Brazil may want to rethink their strategy, and consider instituting
anti passport forgery measures and scannable passports. A progressive
country would proffer reasonable solutions not direct confrontation,
IMO.

It is an unfortunate coincidence that our neighbors and allies in the
western hemisphere are going to be most affected by the new US policy
just when we need their support in international affairs. It would be
a magnanimously conciliatory gesture for the US to provide some
expertise to our neighbors in overcoming the technical issues, and it
might help mitigate the international perception of xenophobia. But
that would take a President who valued the support of his allies...

--

"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
- George W. Bush

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
- George W Bush

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
- Governor George W. Bush

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have
a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
- Governor George W. Bush

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
- Governor George W. Bush

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the
impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
- Governor George W. Bush

"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."
- Governor George W. Bush

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not
need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing
about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me
why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an
explanation. "
~ George Bush Jr. as reported in the Washington Post

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> The NYT article to which you kindly provided the URL below states:
>

It was the International Herald Tribune.

[Gig Giacona]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:30:57 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > wrote in Message-Id:
> . net>:
>
> >
> >"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> The article contained this bit of information:
> >>
> >> "Brazil's new requirement that American visitors submit to
> >> photographs and fingerprinting ... which is how Brazilians are
> >> welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules."
> >>
> >> I would say that the U.S. instituted practice of fingerprinting and
> >> photographing airline passengers entering our country may spark
> >> similar indignities for U.S. passengers entering foreign countries.
> >>
> >
> >But why just for US passengers? The US didn't single out Brazil or any
> >other individual country, the requirement applies to all passengers not
> >otherwise documented.
>
> What does your phrase "not otherwise documented" mean? Other than
> what? Aren't all international travelers required to possess a
> Passport?
>
> Are you saying that ALL airline passengers entering the US are
> currently being fingerprinted and photographed? If so, this is the
> first I've heard of that practice being instituted.
>
> Your reply implies that you believe that Brazil has "singled out" US
> passengers for fingerprinting and photographing. Are you able to
> provide a credible citation substantiating that contention? The
> quoted article's lack of explicitly stating that Brazil is requiring
> fingerprinting and photographing _solely_ of US passengers is
> ambiguous IMO.
>
>


First, the US is photographing and fingerprinting all foreign nationals that
are required to have a Visa to enter the USA. Brazil is included in that
group. Brazil is ONLY photographing & fingerprinting US citizens.

Is this fair? Sure it is. Brazil is a sovereign nation and can control their
borders any way they choose. Is it being done because we are doing it to
them and not for security reasons? Sure it is, but again it is their country
and they can do what they want to do at its' borders.

If anyone as an American citizen doesn't like it don't go to Brazil.

Gig Giacona
www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

[Dennis O'Connor]

Yo Gig...
On keeping my american dollars at home, you got it!

Lessee, the American Virgin Islands ought to be nice and warm right now...
denny

"Gig Giacona" > > If anyone as an American citizen
doesn't like it don't go to Brazil.
>
> Gig Giacona
> www.peoamerica.net/N601WR
>
>

[Casey Wilson]

>
> Additionally, the unprofessional conduct of Capt. Dale Robin Hersh
> earned him the fine he deserved IMO.
>

I agree.
It appears to me the Brazilian authorities were taking purile punitive
retaliation, but it does not excuse "ugly American" actions such as this.

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:07:15 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in Message-Id:
. net>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> The NYT article to which you kindly provided the URL below states:
>>
>
>It was the International Herald Tribune.
>

You'll note that the story carries the byline: "Larry Rohter NYT"

[C J Campbell]

"Gig Giacona" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| First, the US is photographing and fingerprinting all foreign nationals
that
| are required to have a Visa to enter the USA. Brazil is included in that
| group. Brazil is ONLY photographing & fingerprinting US citizens.
|
| Is this fair? Sure it is. Brazil is a sovereign nation and can control
their
| borders any way they choose. Is it being done because we are doing it to
| them and not for security reasons? Sure it is, but again it is their
country
| and they can do what they want to do at its' borders.
|
| If anyone as an American citizen doesn't like it don't go to Brazil.

I am reminded of a policy some states used to have that charged Californians
more to use their state parks. Of course, the policy was entirely in
retaliation for California charging out of state visitors more. I would not
let Brazil's policy keep me from visiting that country. Come to think of it,
I kind of like their feisty attitude.

[Jürgen Exner]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The article contained this bit of information:
>>
>> "Brazil's new requirement that American visitors submit to
>> photographs and fingerprinting ... which is how Brazilians are
>> welcomed to the U.S. under new security rules."
>>
>> I would say that the U.S. instituted practice of fingerprinting and
>> photographing airline passengers entering our country may spark
>> similar indignities for U.S. passengers entering foreign countries.
>>
>
> But why just for US passengers? The US didn't single out Brazil or
> any other individual country, the requirement applies to all
> passengers not otherwise documented.

Simple: it is called reciprocal.
If you let my citizen into your country without a visa, then I will let your
citizen into my country without a visa.
If you are charging my citizien 200$ processing fee, them I will charge your
citizen 200$ processing fee.
If you don't require my citizen to present a passport (just an ID is good
enough), then I don't require your citizen do present a passport.
If you are fingerprinting my citizen, then I will fingerprint your citizen.

I am glad that Brazil had the guts to stand up against arrogance.

jue

[Jürgen Exner]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> reciprocal.
>> USA demands fingerprinting from Brazilians (and others; but this is not
Brazil's
>> ticket)
>> Brazil demands fingerprints from US-citizens in return.
>>
>
> I think that would be valid if Brazil took the same steps for the same
> reasons, but it appears they're taking them just because they're
> ****ed off.

You may want to check the definition of "reciprocal".

jue

[Brian Burger]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Larry Dighera wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:07:15 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> > wrote in Message-Id:
> . net>:
>
> >
> >"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> The NYT article to which you kindly provided the URL below states:
> >>
> >
> >It was the International Herald Tribune.
> >
>
> You'll note that the story carries the byline: "Larry Rohter NYT"

I'm pretty sure that the Int'l Herald-Tribune is a joint project of the
NYT & one of the Washington,DC papers (the Post?).

So you could both be right, in a way...

Brian.

[StellaStar]

>> The NYT article to which you kindly provided the URL below states:
>>
>
>It was the International Herald Tribune.
>

The online news services often scout out other papers and sources (even TV
stations) that offer the same story without having to register. They all pick
them up from the same AP or other newswire sources, but YahooNews and others
try to find a publisher who spares you from having to register your personal
data every time you click a link to read a story.

[John T]

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message

>
> It appears to me the Brazilian authorities were taking purile
> punitive retaliation, but it does not excuse "ugly American" actions
> such as this.

Maybe, but would American officials put a foreign national on trial for
flipping off the airport camera? I doubt it based on that alone.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> You'll note that the story carries the byline: "Larry Rohter NYT"
>

You'll note the URL does not lead to the New York Times site.

[G.R. Patterson III]

John T wrote:
>
> Maybe, but would American officials put a foreign national on trial for
> flipping off the airport camera? I doubt it based on that alone.

Having had unfortunately close encounters with the authorities in Tennessee and
Atlanta in my younger days, I am quite certain that doing so there would result
in some jail time.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[John T]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message

>
> you might want to read this:
> http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=9007&TagID=2

They weren't put on trial nor were they fined. Nor, for that matter, did
they give the middle finger salute, so how is this at all relevant to this
thread?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Big John]

Larry

In paper a few years ago a afro-can woman was hauled into court for
giving a Policeman the 'bird'.

Her defense was that this was a normal way of greeting for 'cans' and
the Judge let her off.

Looks like we got a double standard here. If your a 'can' you get off.
If your white, it cost you $12,750 USD :o(

OR. We've got some stupid Judges here like they have in Brazil.

Big John
Pilot ROCAF

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:54:42 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

----clip----

>Additionally, the unprofessional conduct of Capt. Dale Robin Hersh
>earned him the fine he deserved IMO.

[Big John]

Jue

If you are talking about the rest of the world, it means we give and
they take.

Big John
Pilot ROCAF

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:53:32 GMT, "Jürgen Exner"
> wrote:

----clip----

>You may want to check the definition of "reciprocal".

>jue
>

[C J Campbell]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
| Larry
|
| In paper a few years ago a afro-can woman was hauled into court for
| giving a Policeman the 'bird'.
|
| Her defense was that this was a normal way of greeting for 'cans' and
| the Judge let her off.
|
| Looks like we got a double standard here. If your a 'can' you get off.
| If your white, it cost you $12,750 USD :o(
|
| OR. We've got some stupid Judges here like they have in Brazil.
|

I would not touch that with a ten foot Pole. Or even a Czech or Rumanian.

[Dave Buckles]

Larry Dighera wrote:
<snip>

Your .sig:

"The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country."
- George W. Bush

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."
- George W Bush

"I stand by all the misstatements that I've made."
- Governor George W. Bush

"We have a firm commitment to NATO, we are a part of NATO. We have
a firm commitment to Europe. We are a part of Europe."
- Governor George W. Bush

"We are ready for any unforeseen event that may or may not occur."
- Governor George W. Bush

"It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the
impurities in our air and water that are doing it."
- Governor George W. Bush

"It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."
- Governor George W. Bush

"I'm the commander -- see, I don't need to explain -- I do not
need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing
about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me
why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an
explanation. "
~ George Bush Jr. as reported in the Washington Post

I'm not fond of some of the things the current administration has done
(I decline to state my overall opinion, either way), but I've seen all
of these quotes before. It was about 1999 (I was still living in
Dayton), and they were all attributed to Al Gore. They all belong on
snopes.com. There are some good ones out there, though, if you want to
spark conversation. I don't like getting involved in political
discussion (unless it's topical), but I really hate seeing bad facts, on
any side of the debate.

--Dave