Frustrated Student Pilot About to Quit

[Litwin]

I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
This is why:

1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
common disease in GA so I hear.

2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
even have a bottom line in some sectors.

3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.

I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
to have to give it up.

[BTIZ]

I see you have two choices.. maybe 3... or 4

1) move to a warmer climate
2) take a long vacation to a warm climate with a flight school and finish up
(I know a few people who have done that and flown every day and finished in
3-4 weeks)
3) wait until summer
4) quit

Sorry to hear you have CFI problems, that is a major obstacle to get around
in such a small community. Ask the local pilots in the area who they go to
for their 2 year reviews. Maybe there is a hidden CFI somewhere that will
not deal with the FBOs poor equipment.

Tardy CFIs are let go from the local flight school here. If they can't meet
the schedule,See ya. It's one thing if he's with a previous student that
runs over time. It's another to not be at the airport and ready when the
student (CUSTOMER)walks in the door.

BT

"Litwin" > wrote in message
om...
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
> that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
> pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
> This is why:
>
> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.
>
> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
> or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.
>
> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.
>
> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Litwin" > wrote in message
om...

> Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.

That is not my experience and I have not heard that. One to two hours late?
Unbelieveable!

> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start.

This varies from place to place. However, if the only instructor is
frequently 1 to 2 hours late and this is accepted, I can understand why that
aviation company isn't doing very well.

> Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.

There are also many great flying days. We've all been frustrated over
weather at times. But, I also like swimming, and there are a good many
months when that is impossible during the year also, but I'm not about to
quit it.

> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

If you like it, and there is nothing else like it on this space rock, take a
vacation and go somewhere with great weather and get the license. There are
many decent schools down south; think of a location (eg, Florida) and ask
for recommendations, and return home with your PP certificate.

Peter

[G.R. Patterson III]

Litwin wrote:
>
> Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a common disease in GA so I hear.

I have not found that to be the case, but it sounds like your CFI is the only
game in town.

> I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.

This is not universally true, but, again, for you, there's no other choice.

> I am disappointed that this is not more practical.

Well, it's not.

> I am really sorry to have to give it up.

Sounds like that's what you have to do, though. If you move elsewhere later in life,
try again.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Jay Honeck]

> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent.

You should not put up with this. You need to speak with his boss, if he has
one, and explain why you are about to remove your substantial financial
support from his small business. Done in the proper tone, this can have an
AMAZING effect.

If he doesn't have a boss, you need to explain this to HIM.

> 2. GA seems economically distressed.

GA IS economically distressed, for precisely the reasons you outline. We
currently have a very professionally-run FBO on our field, and they are
doing fine, despite intense competition. However, poor service and
slip-shod operations are unfortunately quite common in GA.

Stick around and help us change that.

> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster.

Not a problem. I trained and lived in Wisconsin, and currently reside in
Iowa -- not a whole lot warmer than your neck of the woods. Despite this,
Mary and I fly every few days, year 'round. You just have to pick your days
carefully, and don't think of GA travel like an airline. Be prepared to
scrub your flights, because it WILL happen -- even in summer. Remember,
what we are flying is as different from an airliner as Miata is from a
HumVee -- you're not always going to be able to get there from here.

If you've done any motorcycle touring, weather planning is really quite
similar. In fact, we take frequent GA flying vacations, and we ALWAYS plan
at least two entirely different trips, so that if the weather sucks in one
direction, we are prepared to go the other way. By following this plan, we
have NEVER scrubbed a vacation, in ten years of VFR flying. We just choose
to go another direction!

> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

Personally, I had to wait until I was 35 years old to be able to get my
ticket. And then I had to drive 45 minutes before work in the morning to
take lesson, in the winter, in Wisconsin, and would often find that the
weather was below minimums when I got there, or the airplane was down. And
if the airplane WASN'T down, it still had to be cleared of snow, de-iced,
and pre-heated for half an hour before we could fly.

Learning to fly isn't easy. Between lessons were long nights of study, with
two toddlers underfoot, and a tired wife to help support. Compared to
getting my college degree, learning to fly was MUCH harder for me, simply
because of the many other things going on in my life.

But it was the best thing I ever did, and it has truly changed my life. I
simply can't imagine life without flying, and we're now on our second
airplane. Mary got her ticket in '99, and we literally fly EVERYWHERE with
our kids, ages 10 and 13.

Here's the harsh truth: If you give it up now because of a tardy CFI, you
aren't cut out to be a pilot. Flying is either in your blood, or it's not.
If it is -- and you're given half a chance to get your Private -- you'll
stick with it, no matter what.

Less than 1% of the world gets to be a pilot. With 18 hours invested, you're
half-way there. Keep at it -- you won't regret it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jürgen Exner]

Litwin wrote:
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing.

I would think that is very typical. I just soloed 10 days ago with 20 hours.

> However, I have reached the point
> that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
> pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
> This is why:
>
> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent.

Did you talk to him? Did you mention that being this late is a real problem
for you?
If this doesn't help or if you get a snippy reply then:
Dump that CFI! Not next week, not tomorrow, do it NOW.
You are the paying customer. If he doesn't even listen to you, then the
relationship is just not working.
It is your money, your time, your nerves. Not to mention your blood
pressure.

> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road.

Well, not really. There are many free-lance CFIs around. There are also
flying clubs and other organization, wich are non-commercial. I would try to
find someone in that area before giving up flying because of a bad CFI.

> Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.

Maybe, depends on your definition of "untimely and tardy" and "common
desease".
Personally I cannot confirm your observation for my flying school. People
are very courtiouos, usually punctual (with some leeway of course, you can't
plan every slight by the second), and if there a tardy CFI and any customer
would talk to the Chief Flight Instructor or the FBO owner, then you can be
sure that the CFI would have a very uncomfortable conversation with his
boss.

> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that

That of course is a well-known fact. Has been for decades.

> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start.

Happens. Those are old planes, beaten planes, what can you expect from an
industry that can barely survive.
However, I think the general attitude is more important, from both sides!

If you want a new plane with nice leather seats, the latest avionics, etc.
etc, then my FBO would be very happy to rent it to me for the lessons.
However, the price will be about twice as much as you pay for an old C-152
with torn seats and the paint worn down.

As for the attitude of the FBO: during my very limited flying experience I
grounded a plain 4 times because they were not airworthy. That's what a
preflight and runup are for. And once we had to cancel the lesson because
there was no other plane available. But that is your responsibility as a
pilot, nobody else can make that call. Now, the big question is how did the
FBO react? And at least at my place they take the plane out of service
immediately, take it to the shop, and it won't be back in service until the
problem is fixed (which usually was the case the next day). Now, if they
react grumpy, then you got a problem. But personally I never experienced
that, quite the opposite: they applogiced and were sincerely sorry that I
could fly. Or maybe that they couldn't make money that day, but to me it was
the same.

> And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
> or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.

You lost me. I though you were spending your money because you want to learn
how to fly?
Or do intend to spend your money to subsidice the aviation industry?

> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.

In some areas winter is a challanging time. If this is putting you off so
much, then yes, maybe you should reconsider.

> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

If you really like flying then I think you are giving up to early and for
the wrong reasons.
Some ideas:
- wait until summer when the weather will be more favourable
- find a different CFI (but not without talking to him first; maybe he is
simply not aware that timing is critical for you) or different means of
learning (flying club, ...)!!!
- maybe take two weeks off and take some lessons at a nicer location, e.g.
Florida or Hawaii. While I do not recommend those "Get your license in two
weeks" courses, there is no reason why you shouldn't enjoy a different
atmosphere and better flying conditions. For that time frame you could also
look more upscale flying schools with better/newer equipment, but of course
the price tag will be much higher, too.
- however, if your were getting into aviation because you want to make
money: run away as fast as possible as long as you have any left

jue

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this.

Can't say that I blame you. Mine was late on my second lesson, and I
thought I would have to fire him. But he worked out great after that. In
your position, I would probably work out something along the lines of
telling him that if he is more than X minutes late, then he forfeits his fee
that day. If he won't fly with you under those conditions, fire him.


> 2. GA seems economically distressed.

That's only because GA is economically distressed. Aviation, both general
and commercial, is chock-filled with people who have simply no business
being in business. From Stephen Wolf, ex-CEO of any number of distressed
airlines. down to the A&P I know who literally screams at his customers over
the telephone when they are so rude as to call him to schedule their annual,
to the people who you can only figure must be selling drugs on the side
because they have no visible other means of supporting themselves.

Despite all this, aviation continues to (just barely) survive. Provided
that it isn't legistlated or regulated out of existence, my suspicion is
that there will be GA for some time to come. Most of the businesses you see
will fail in the next five years or so, but other idealistic people will
take their place, and will then slowly go bankrupt themselves.

> Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.

It's not practical. That's disappointing, I agree. But lifting nearly a
ton of weight up in the air costs money -- far more money than moving an SUV
5 times heavier along the ground at highway speeds. You cannot expect a PP
rating to be the key to any real utility. It's fun, and it's cool, but you
cannot count on using it to fly to that business meeting across the state
next Tuesday. Too many things can get in the way of any flight. An
instrument rating would go a long way to making more flights do-able, but it
cannot prevent icing or thunderstorms or mechanical problems or any number
of other things that will force you to drive across the state instead and be
late for your big meeting.

GA flying is GA flying, nothing more and nothing less. Sometimes it works
out. Sometimes it is very useful. And other times it is frustrating,
disappointing, and exceedingly unhelpful.

[Cockpit Colin]

> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.

Try booking a time that's 1 to 2 hours ahead of when you want to fly. Either
....

(a) He'll be ready about the same time as you, or ...

(b) He'll get the message!

CC

[Jeff Franks]

>...He is the only CFI at this airport.

Ask around. I was amazed at the number of CFI's in my area that either
worked at other airports (some as far as 100miles away) or that only
instructed on the side (outside the FBO).

You'll be surprised what you might find.


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[Pilot Bob \(I am just a great guy!!\)]

Dude (or dudette),

Your situation stinks, I know. Have you considered travelling somewhere else
for a flight training weekend? Maybe a few days with a different CFI might
just give you the boost that you need to work with this chump a little
longer. You are so close to solo (think about it!!) it would be a real shame
if you quit now.

Good luck. Keep on going. It is worth it.

Pilot Bob

"Litwin" > wrote in message
om...
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
> that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
> pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
> This is why:

[Bela P. Havasreti]

/On 21 Jan 2004 18:10:16 -0800, (Litwin)
wrote:

Giving up on something you truly believe in, or really want to do
is NEVER an option. You make the *other* guy give up..... <grins>
Sorta like the saying that goes the object of war is not to give your
life for your country, but to make the other guy give his life for
his. You're paying the bills for flight training, you get to call
the shots (within reason).

I empathize with your plight (you appear to have run into a
bad-apple), but at the same time, I'll say that I typically try to
avoid letting others dictate the success or failure of that which I
desire to do and/or achieve. There is always more than one way to
skin a cat. Be creative and adaptive. Doing so will improve the
likelyhood of achieving your goal(s).

If you truly desire to become a certificated pilot, you will do so
no matter what obstacles are put in your path (including driving
65 miles).

Anyway, it would appear your options are:

1. Give up on getting your private pilot certificate (not an option
in my book).

2. "Suck it up" and put up with this particular CFI's tardy
habits for the next 20 or so hours of flight instruction until
you get that which you seek (the Pvt. cert.)

3. Fire the old Buick up and drive 65 miles to gain that which
you seek!

As a parting thought, it's been awhile since I've quoted him, but
perhaps it's time to drag it out again. Consider the following
words of wisdom from Johann Wofgang Von Goeth (this has
come true in spades for me with my endeavors in life):

"Until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back,
always ineffectiveness, concerning all acts of initiative (and
creation). There is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills
countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely
commits oneself, then providence moves too. All sorts of things occur
to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream
of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favour all manner
of unforseen incidents and meetings and material assistance which no
man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do or
dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
Begin it now"

Bela P. Havasreti

>I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
>that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
>that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
>pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
>This is why:
>
>1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
>he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
>discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
>2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
>Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
>miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
>spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
>common disease in GA so I hear.
>
>2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
>employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
>planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
>or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
>money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
>even have a bottom line in some sectors.
>
>3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
>with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
>IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
>more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
>faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
>lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
>conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.
>
>I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
>really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
>really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
>private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
>luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
>to have to give it up.

[Peter Duniho]

"Litwin" > wrote in message
om...
> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent.

As you've already figured out, this is just plain unacceptable. Even 10 or
20 minutes late, if on a regular basis, would not be reasonable. But being
hours late is downright absurd.

> He is the only CFI at this airport.

Which airport? As others have pointed out, it would be *highly* unusual for
it to be the case that this is the only CFI there, and certainly for him to
be the only one within a reasonable distance. Where are you exactly, that
this lone CFI has the corner on the market?

> [...] Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.

I suppose "not rare" is a fair statement. I wouldn't go so far as to say
"common". There are a large number of CFIs who act professionally,
including being on time.

> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
> or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.

Yup, GA is distressed. But still, most operations have airplanes that work
reliably. The company you're talking about doesn't sound typical to me.
Keeping an airport clear of snow is harder, and that might be an issue where
you are. You'll need to find a different airport if that's truly a
continual problem.

> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.

I can't speak for the weather in your area. I live in the Seattle area,
rumored to be equally rainy and unflyable during the winter, but it turns
out that many more days even during the winter are flyable than one might
imagine. Keep in mind that, especially during the early parts of training,
a good instructor will want to make sure lessons happen in reasonably good
weather. That doesn't mean you'll always be similarly restricted. It just
means that, for now, you need good enough weather than you can focus on the
fundamental tasks at hand, rather than worrying about the weather.

Later in your training, the poorer weather will provide some good experience
that will keep you in good stead in your future as a pilot.

> [...] The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

Sorry, your subject line implied that you hadn't quit yet. But now that I
reach the end of your post, it appears you have already quit.

Many people across the country, and indeed around the world, have learned to
fly under conditions at least as bad as what you're dealing with. You DO
need a new CFI, one who will treat you with more respect, and you DO need to
find a place to rent airplanes that keeps them better maintained. But
otherwise, there's no reason you can't complete your training, not if you
really want to.

Pete

[atis118]

Your situation sounds very frustrating, but rather than give it up I
would wait until the summer when the weather improves, and take that
time to do your own home study ground school and try to find an
independant CFI who will travel to you. In the meantime you will
probably meet some more pilots who can recommend a CFI to you.
Another piece I advice I'd like to offer is to not get too hung up on
how many hours it takes to solo, or how many hours to get your ticket.
The 40 hour benchmark to get your license is an old and outdated one.
It was devised at a time when airplanes were less complex and there
was less airspace to deal with. Some people can do it in 40 or 50,
others can take hundreds, it's all up to where you feel comfortable
with your knowledge and abilities. I didn't solo until about 40 hours,
the airplane I trained in was fully IFR certified complete with a GPS,
all of which I wanted a thorough grasp on if I was going to navigate
around the complex airspace where I live. I fly out of Van Nuys in S.
California and it is the busiest GA airport in America, 1570
operations per day. It is surrounded by every type airspace around and
there is a TON of traffic. So I soloed when I was comfortable that I
could get up and back without busting some type of airspace or bashing
into a 747 on approach to LAX.
Getting your ticket is a very rewarding achievement, so try not to
give up just yet.




(Litwin) wrote in message >...
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
> that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
> pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
> This is why:
>
> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.
>
> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
> or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.
>
> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.
>
> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

[Cub Driver]

If you really want to fly, you ought to think long & hard about
relocating.

As a half-way measure, you might look into a week-long program. I live
in a harsh climate, and I've twice gone off in March to learn
something new. I did five days at Chandler AZ doing stall and
aerobatic training, and last year I spent three days at Andover NJ
doing a bush-flying course. These were wonderful experiences. If you
had five days in a congenial climate doing a lesson in the morning and
another in the afternoon, and al the cable TV you could eat (I don't
have cable at home, so I binge when I'm on the road) you would know by
the end whether you really wanted to fly.

And you almost certainly would have soloed. That's worth a lot!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Gene Seibel]

The question is, 'How important is flying to you?' Only you can answer
that. I once had a job that I didn't really like at first. I finally
had to make a choice to either quit grumbling and do it, or quit.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



(Litwin) wrote in message >...
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
> that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
> pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
> This is why:
>
> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.
>
> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
> or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.
>
> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.
>
> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

[Gary Drescher]

"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
>
> Giving up on something you truly believe in, or really want to do
> is NEVER an option.

Sure it is, unless your goals are not very ambitious or interesting. If
they are, you will want to do much more than is physically possible in a
finite lifetime, and will often need to abandon some things you really want
in order to pursue other things you really want.

> If you truly desire to become a certificated pilot, you will do so
> no matter what obstacles are put in your path (including driving
> 65 miles).

I think you're confusing true desire with infinite desire. It would be
foolish to cling to something you truly desire if the obstacles cost much
more than your goal is worth. Sometimes it makes sense to persevere through
adversity; sometimes it doesn't. We need to make intelligent tradeoffs.

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"Litwin" > wrote in message
om...
> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road.

Can you find an instructor at the other airport who will fly to your local
airport for your lessons? It would add to the cost of your training, but it
would be an alternative to the long commute.

--Gary

[Dennis O'Connor]

Are you quitting or venting?

If you are quitting, what is the point of your post? taaaa taaa, don't let
the door knob, etc...

If you are venting, and/or looking for advice, you certainly got a boat load
of it...

If you want a discussion of alternatives, buzz me off the group...


denny

"Litwin" > wrote in message
om...
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing.

[EDR]

Finding another CFI isn't terribly difficult. As with other things, you
just have to know where to look.
The FAA online database is one. Another would be to call or email the
FSDO for your are and ask them to send you a list.
A third source is the National Association of Flight Instructors. Go to
the EAA website and find the link to NAFI.
Once you obtain some names, you can GOOGLE (or ANYWHO) for telephone
numbers.
Call them directly and explain your situation. Ask if they would be
willing to take you on. Some will probably have their own aircraft that
they would prefer to use.
Be creative and stick with it. You will not regret it.

[Litwin]

Thank you for your comments. Yes, I did check as to freelance CFIs in
this region, one is in Florida 8 months out of the year (gee I wonder
why) and not highly recommended, the other had his med certificate
pulled, and the other is well, on good information, a drunk so to
speak, and wouldnt have access to a plane. I also checked the other
airport 65 miles from here, a few I talked to were disappointed with
their flight instruction there. The next closest ga instruction is 90
miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrafice for
me. I guess it is different in the big city.

I drove to the airport this am to submit my "resignation" and I did
give the reasons, while looking at them trying to handprop one of the
training planes. I was such an excellent student, what a
disappointing surprise blah blah blah, they dont get it and never
will. And if I were to get my PP certif., I would be likely flying
out of that place anyway.

I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
enough to fly.

I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
that is pretty cool.

I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late.

The best of luck to the rest of you who have better circumstances and
the opportunity to find it rewarding.

[Jay Honeck]

> The best of luck to the rest of you who have better circumstances and
> the opportunity to find it rewarding.

Another one bites the dust.

Too depressing.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rosspilot]

Wow. What a depressing thread :-(
I never would have thought (with GA businesses scrambling to earn and save
every nickel) that they'd let such a promising student slip away . . . or more
accurately DRIVE a student away.
THAT SAID,
If you *really* want to fly as much as it appears you do, you cannot let
setbacks like yours do more than DELAY your progress. It's on YOU to change
your circumstances.






www.Rosspilot.com

[Jay Honeck]

> If you *really* want to fly as much as it appears you do, you cannot let
> setbacks like yours do more than DELAY your progress. It's on YOU to
change
> your circumstances.

I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
deeper.

Either this guy discovered that flying isn't what he really wants to do with
his money, or he has run up against a quiet inner fear of soloing. I think
we all experienced the latter, to one degree or another, and fought our way
through it to success.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of flight students quit before soloing due
to a fear of being alone at the controls for the first time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rosspilot]

>> If you *really* want to fly as much as it appears you do, you cannot let
>> setbacks like yours do more than DELAY your progress. It's on YOU to
>change
>> your circumstances.
>
>I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
>people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
>deeper.
>
>Either this guy discovered that flying isn't what he really wants to do with
>his money, or he has run up against a quiet inner fear of soloing. I think
>we all experienced the latter, to one degree or another, and fought our way
>through it to success.
>
>I'd be willing to bet that a lot of flight students quit before soloing due
>to a fear of being alone at the controls for the first time.

Having a hard time relating on this one, Jay . . . maybe because I was trained
in the military, I was frothing at the bit to solo in that little TH-55a . . .
those in my flight class were kinda betting on who would be first . . . I was
among the last :-(

I agree that there may be a little more to the story, but the CFI being
perpetually THAT tardy is inexcusable in my judgement. He needs a swift kick
in the ass. <G>


www.Rosspilot.com

[Todd Pattist]

(Rosspilot) wrote:

>I agree that there may be a little more to the story, but the CFI being
>perpetually THAT tardy is inexcusable in my judgement. He needs a swift kick
>in the ass. <G>

I've flown with CFI's who taught for free in a club setting,
and CFI's who were paid peanuts and spent three times what
they earned flying their twin in to the airport before the
lesson, and CFI's who were grandmothers, and CFI's who were
just friends of mine and flew with me when we were both on
the airport and we both had time to spare. The one thing
that the CFI's I've flown with shared was a love of flying
and a desire to share that love. When they were late, it
wasn't because they didn't care or couldn't be bothered to
arrive on time. If that's what was going on, I'd have
ditched the instructor too, but not my desire to fly.

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>and a desire to share that love. When they were late, it
>wasn't because they didn't care or couldn't be bothered to
>arrive on time. If that's what was going on, I'd have
>ditched the instructor too, but not my desire to fly.

My first CFI always arrived *just* late enough that I had finished
taking the wing and cabin covers off, and preheating the engine, and
shovelling the snow in front of the plane. And he usually had a very hot
cup of coffee in his hand (but not one for me). Funny how that worked
out.

The second greatest thrill in flying is taking off without that big load
in the copilot seat. The first biggest thrill is when you fly when he
isn't even at the airport.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"But you've got to hand it to IBM, they know how to design hardware. The
servers all had handles to pick them up and throw them out of the
window...." --Juergen Nieveler in the Monastery

[C J Campbell]

Oops. Replied to wrong post. Let us try it again:

It is neither normal nor acceptable for a CFI to be 1 or 2 hours late. He
may be trying to dump you as a student.

You show exceptional perseverence for someone thinking about quitting.
Hanging around for an extra hour or two for your CFI, continuing to fly in
ratty aircraft, continuing your lessons even though progress has slowed,
etc. Eighteen hours to solo is not unusual, but I would expect you to be
closer now. I would also expect you to have your medical certificate by now.
This shows a either a definite lack of guidance from your instructor, or a
failure on your part to follow that guidance. There is more to being an
instructor than being patient and knowledgeable. The instructor has to be
able to teach, too, and I don't see much teaching going on here.

Learning to fly in winter is a pain. Many of my students also complain about
the frequent cancellations for fog and icing, but there is little we can do
about it short of moving to San Diego. (I might just do that myself.) Still,
look at it this way. When spring rolls around and the weather clears up you
will be all ready to finish off those last cross country flights and enjoy
your certificat all summer.

GA is financially distressed, but that does not mean that we cannot afford
to maintain aircraft. Having your engine fail to start does not indicate to
me that you have a maintenance problem. That is largely a winter thing, a
function of low batteries and improper preflight. It can get cold enough
that the starter will not engage even though there is enough battery power
to turn the starter. A maintenance problem would be if the airplane sits
broken for weeks on end, or if the airplane has something major wrong with
it that never seems to get fixed.

My advice would be to make the sacrifice in time and effort to learn to fly
somewhere else. At least take a vacation and get some instruction someplace
else that has new airplanes and professional staff. Have them evaluate where
you are and find out whether it is worth trying to finish up there.

I have been getting letters from several places that have no flight
instructors asking me if I would be interested in relocating there. I am
happy at PAVCO, but I am beginning to get a real sense that there is a
genuine shortage of qualified and experienced instructors.

[Cecil E. Chapman]

>The next closest ga instruction is 90
> miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
> what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
> me. I guess it is different in the big city.

? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.

Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already, so
I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.

At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were used
there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished my
PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).

I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.

Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it just
a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?

I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise above.
You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is not
what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
what happens to us.

[Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]

Good luck!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
> I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
> headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
> have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
> enough to fly.
>
> I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
> very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
> an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
> that is pretty cool.
>
> I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
> that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
> to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
> CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late

[Marco Leon]

Hear, hear Cecil. Great post.

I had a good instructor who was pretty much on time. My problems we with the
crappy aircraft and no communication as to when an aircraft was down for
maintenance. So I bought my own plane...

Marco

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
. com...
> >The next closest ga instruction is 90
> > miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
> > what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
> > me. I guess it is different in the big city.
>
> ? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
> would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.
>
> Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already,
so
> I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.
>
> At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
> Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
> better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
> on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were
used
> there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
> flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished
my
> PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
> there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).
>
> I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
> prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.
>
> Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
> sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
> blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
> for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it
just
> a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?
>
> I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
> really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
> you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise
above.
> You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is
not
> what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
> life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
> what happens to us.
>
> [Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil
> PP-ASEL
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text
at:
> www.bayareapilot.com
>
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
>
> "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
> this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> - Cecil Day Lewis -
> > I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
> > headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
> > have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
> > enough to fly.
> >
> > I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
> > very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
> > an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
> > that is pretty cool.
> >
> > I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
> > that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
> > to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
> > CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late
>
>



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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----------------------------------------------------------
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[Litwin]

No, sorry, you are wrong, have had much less fear and axiety about
flying than I thought I would.. It is more of a feeling of being
driven away, as the other gentleman pointed out in his post, and of
investing so much more time and money in such a screwed up business in
something that when it works is an enjoyable challenege, but lacks so
much practicality in this part of the world for much of the year. I
truly wish it were different, and i have now put my frustration to an
end, but believe what you want.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<pKRPb.123597$xy6.429769@attbi_s02>...
> > If you *really* want to fly as much as it appears you do, you cannot let
> > setbacks like yours do more than DELAY your progress. It's on YOU to
> change
> > your circumstances.
>
> I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
> people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
> deeper.
>
> Either this guy discovered that flying isn't what he really wants to do with
> his money, or he has run up against a quiet inner fear of soloing. I think
> we all experienced the latter, to one degree or another, and fought our way
> through it to success.
>
> I'd be willing to bet that a lot of flight students quit before soloing due
> to a fear of being alone at the controls for the first time.

[Blanche]

Check out AvWeb databases. I know they have a list of A&Ps,
and all certificated pilots. It's really just a copy of the
FAA's list, so take your choice.

www.avweb.com/databases/airmen.html

Search for your state and find a list of CFIs. Ask them
to visit you at the airport and talk about using them as a
CFI instead of whatever you've got now.

Some CFIs teach using their own aircraft, so that may be
an option, also.

Remember, yes, you are a student. You're also the customer.

[Litwin]

Cecil-

I wish I were young at 40. And yes, I enjoy flying and want to fly.
And no there isnt more to the story, but one of the posts about poor
maintenance is too eerily familiar. It is something called way too
many obstacles (and not the 50' ones). But I also have a life to
lead, and not spending endless hours on the road, you have to draw a
reasonable line and balance somewhere.. I cant change the behavior of
an otherwise decent CFI who has serious punctuality problems, in a
situation of near monopoly, and a pathetic FBO that is the only game
in town. People like myself, despite having the money, the interest,
and desire are not a big priority in GA, and I have reconciled to that
in my decision. (E.g. only one AOPA "mentor" for my entire state). The
weather kind of tipped the scale for me. Watching those poor slobs
trying to handprop that junky tomahawk out in the snow today just
reinforced things for me. I really feel like i am missing out, but
the ecomomic health of GA really says a lot to people like me.



"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message >...
> >The next closest ga instruction is 90
> > miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
> > what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
> > me. I guess it is different in the big city.
>
> ? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
> would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.
>
> Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already, so
> I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.
>
> At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
> Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
> better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
> on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were used
> there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
> flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished my
> PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
> there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).
>
> I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
> prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.
>
> Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
> sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
> blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
> for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it just
> a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?
>
> I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
> really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
> you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise above.
> You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is not
> what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
> life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
> what happens to us.
>
> [Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil
> PP-ASEL
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
> www.bayareapilot.com
>
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
>
> "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
> this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> - Cecil Day Lewis -
> > I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
> > headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
> > have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
> > enough to fly.
> >
> > I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
> > very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
> > an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
> > that is pretty cool.
> >
> > I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
> > that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
> > to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
> > CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:pKRPb.123597$xy6.429769@attbi_s02...
> > If you *really* want to fly as much as it appears you do, you cannot let
> > setbacks like yours do more than DELAY your progress. It's on YOU to
> change
> > your circumstances.
>
> I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
> people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
> deeper.
>
> Either this guy discovered that flying isn't what he really wants to do
with
> his money, or he has run up against a quiet inner fear of soloing. I
think
> we all experienced the latter, to one degree or another, and fought our
way
> through it to success.
>
> I'd be willing to bet that a lot of flight students quit before soloing
due
> to a fear of being alone at the controls for the first time.


Interesting you said this, because the same thing occurred to me. The big
clue was that he is quitting right after being told he is ready to solo.

[Bob Fry]

"BTIZ" > writes:

> I see you have two choices.. maybe 3... or 4
>
> 1) move to a warmer climate
> 2) take a long vacation to a warm climate with a flight school and finish up
> (I know a few people who have done that and flown every day and finished in
> 3-4 weeks)
> 3) wait until summer
> 4) quit

and

5) hang in there, achieve solo, then you'll be able to practice a lot
without the flakey instructor. True, you'll still need some dual with
him, but not every flight. If after getting your PP-ASEL you still
want to fly, you can consider getting your own airplane and avoid the
junk stuff your club or FBO offers.

You might also consider getting the somewhat easier recreation
license, or wait a bit for the even easier sport license to be
finalized.

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:40:31 GMT, "Gary Drescher"
> wrote:

>"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Giving up on something you truly believe in, or really want to do
>> is NEVER an option.
>
>Sure it is, unless your goals are not very ambitious or interesting. If
>they are, you will want to do much more than is physically possible in a
>finite lifetime, and will often need to abandon some things you really want
>in order to pursue other things you really want.

>> If you truly desire to become a certificated pilot, you will do so
>> no matter what obstacles are put in your path (including driving
>> 65 miles).
>
>I think you're confusing true desire with infinite desire. It would be
>foolish to cling to something you truly desire if the obstacles cost much
>more than your goal is worth. Sometimes it makes sense to persevere through
>adversity; sometimes it doesn't. We need to make intelligent tradeoffs.
>
>--Gary

I'm not confusing anything with anything Gary.

The person in question appeared to need a "pep-talk" and some
re-assurance that the temporary set-backs and difficulties will be
worth the reward in the end.

Don't know about you, but when I give a pep talk, I don't use phrases
like "make intelligent tradeoffs" or tell folks they may be foolish
for chasing their dreams. Not to mention the fact that becoming a
private pilot (in the US at least) needn't be categorized as an
un-attainable goal, only available to the superhuman and/or filthy
rich.

Another poster stated it much more eloquently than I ever could.....
Flying is an addiction. Once you have tasted flight, forever will
your eyes look skyward, and all that jazz. I think most folks who
take up flying strictly for business purposes still end up getting
"hooked" the same way we all have.

If someone doesn't understand that after 18 hours of dual instruction,
they deserve a little encouragement. If they still don't understand,
they need yet more encouragement <grins>.

Life is short, and then you die. Those on their death beds rarely
ponder over what they've done over the course of their lives, but tend
to ponder over that which they didn't do, or could have done.

Bela P. Havasreti

[RK]

On 22 Jan 2004 06:26:06 -0800, (Litwin) wrote:

>Thank you for your comments. Yes, I did check as to freelance CFIs in
>this region, one is in Florida 8 months out of the year (gee I wonder
>why) and not highly recommended, the other had his med certificate
>pulled, and the other is well, on good information, a drunk so to
>speak, and wouldnt have access to a plane. I also checked the other
>airport 65 miles from here, a few I talked to were disappointed with
>their flight instruction there. The next closest ga instruction is 90
>miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
>what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrafice for
>me. I guess it is different in the big city.
>
>I drove to the airport this am to submit my "resignation" and I did
>give the reasons, while looking at them trying to handprop one of the
>training planes. I was such an excellent student, what a
>disappointing surprise blah blah blah, they dont get it and never
>will. And if I were to get my PP certif., I would be likely flying
>out of that place anyway.
>
>I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
>headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
>have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
>enough to fly.
>
>I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
>very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
>an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
>that is pretty cool.
>
> I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
>that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
>to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
>CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late.
>
>The best of luck to the rest of you who have better circumstances and
>the opportunity to find it rewarding.


Sorry to hear you're stopping your flying lessons, but given the conditions...
weather, condition of aircraft, condition of instructors, so few days of good
VFR weather, I can't say that I blame you. No matter how much we want to do
something, if it isn't enjoyable most of the time, we aren't going to continue.
I can't imagine flying under the conditions you describe. I've flown some old
aircraft and I've flown some new aircraft and in both cases the aircraft were
mechanically sound, the instructors were on time, professional and went out of
their way to make the learning experience enjoyable and as exciting as flying
itself.

Based on what you have experienced, it seems the logical solution would be to
move to a more accommodating climate, in a larger city with more options and
more students. I also realize that might not be at all practical for you, but
if you get the chance... go for it.

All GA is not like your experience. For instance, the FBO I fly from now has
all new Cessna 172's, 182's, one 206 and a Trinidad. The oldest Cessna on line
is a 2000 model year, the newest a 2003. There are three full time flight
instructors on call and the chief pilot and one instructor are there at all
times. I've had BFR's with two of the instructors and they were both very
professional and supportive. Take heart... there is still hope for GA.

Ron

[Cub Driver]

>The best of luck to the rest of you who have better circumstances and
>the opportunity to find it rewarding.

Well, I don't know about better circumstances. Last winter I nearly
went off currency (more than 90 days without a flight) because I
couldn't get a plane off the ground. It was too cold (we aren't
allowed to fly the Cubs below 20 degrees), the runway wasn't plowed,
the runway was sheet ice, the runway was deep in mud, the wind was
blowing 30 mph, I had a cold, I had a business appointment, etc.

Meanwhile the airport owner had spent so much money on plowing,
without corresponding rental income, that this year he decided not to
plow at all. There is four inches of chopped up snow on the runway,
with cold and wind most every day. I flew last Saturday and made the
shortest landing "roll" of my life. I swear the Cub stopped in 50
feet, between the wind and the snow cover.

To be sure, I'm only 20 miles from the airport, and I can within
reason fly any day I want. I fly 40-50 hours a year; I wish it were
more.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>>I'd be willing to bet that a lot of flight students quit before soloing due
>>to a fear of being alone at the controls for the first time.
>
>Having a hard time relating on this one, Jay . . . maybe because I was trained
>in the military, I was frothing at the bit to solo in that little TH-55a . . .
>those in my flight class were kinda betting on who would be first . . . I was
>among the last :-(

I just couldn't wait to get that guy out of the front seat. I dreamed
about it at night. I pretended he wasn't there (pretty difficult
flying from the back seat of a J-3). I went to the airport each time
*knowing* he would solo me that day.

All I remember from the experience was the glorious feeling of being
able to see without a sheepskin flying jacket in the front seat.

Now, the *next* day, my first day going down and renting a plane and
taking off alone -- *that* was a terrifying experience. For one thing,
there was six inches of snow on the ground.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Dylan Smith]

In article <pKRPb.123597$xy6.429769@attbi_s02>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> I smell something not quite right in this whole story. In my experience,
> people who quit when they are this far along have run up against something
> deeper.

Not necessarily, and in fact, because many in GA feel this, I think many
of us are living in denial about what GA is really like. Because we have
such a strong passion about it, we often can't see the wood for the
trees.

Why is GA continually economically distressed, when other (expensive)
past-times, sports, ways-of-life etc. are not?

There are several factors.

1. The root cause:
The typical pilot is INCREDIBLY price sensitive. Not necessarily
'mean', or 'tight' (many *are* extremely generous to their friends, and
do things like take people flying and not even ask for a contribution).
I think an airport restaurant owner spotted this: pilots would generally
buy the cheapest meals possible, and it was the non-pilots who would be
willing to spend the money - and this is over spending $5 instead of $7,
not $70 instead of $50.

This is reflected in the rental fleet and quality of instructors. The
fleet is old and knackered generally because the 'Pilot Personality' is
only willing to pay bottom dollar. (There are exceptions - but they are
just that -- exceptions).

I know I am guilty of this myself. Most of my pilot friends are similar.
One of my friends down at the airport here is almost certainly a
multimillionaire. He's very generous to friends, but when it comes to
buying stuff for his business he is INCREDIBLY tight, and bottom dollar
is almost all that matters (and in areas he doesn't fully understand,
such as computers, it's extremely difficult to stop him from making
false economies because of the overriding instinct to choose on bottom
dollar only)

2. The bottom dollar attitude then feeds back into people who run GA
businesses. Since they are only willing to pay bottom dollar to be able
to offer bottom dollar to the student, quality inevitably suffers.

3. Since it's so incredibly price sensitive, which makes being
profitable so damned hard, the only people who run GA businesses (in the
GENERAL case) are enthusiasts and those passionate about GA. They are
almost never good businessmen. This is because the people who ARE good
businessmen (and maybe even passionate about GA) can quite plainly see
there is no money to be made because everything has to be bottom dollar
- including profits. The businessmen who are passionate about GA will do
something else that's profitable to fund their GA habit.
So the people who end up running GA businesses are clueless about
business, or not people-persons or both. This is why you get this
unhelpful attitude in many FBOs. A common fault amongst the general
'Pilot Personality' is 'does-not-suffer-fools-gladly' and hence a
newbie's questioning is often answered with the equivalent of 'Bugger
off and RTFM' (maybe not directly, but that's how it always feels).
Newbie therefore doesn't feel welcome and goes off and learns to sail or
play golf instead.

4. A corollary to this is many people in GA are *too* nice. Best example
is the mechanic we had in Houston for our plane - an EXCELLENT mechanic,
but vastly oversubscribed and forever skint because he was too nice to
raise his rates to more reflect market demand. Therefore, although his
rates were excellent and his work was fabulous, it would always take
forever to get an annual signed off. That of course lead to frustration.
It's quite possible that he's found that his business has a 'kinked'
demand curve thanks to bottom dollar. If he keeps his rates at present,
he'll be oversubscribed - but if he raises his rates $10/hr, so many
'bottom-dollar' seeking pilots will flee he won't be able to make any
money at it.

5. The base prices are very high to start with (about $800 for just one
new Millennium cylinder for our C-85 engine), leaving those in the
middle (the FBOs, the mechanics, the instructors) very little room to
charge what their time or experience is worth anyway to a very price
sensitive customer base.

Until this bottom-dollar mentality goes away (which it won't) GA will be
financially distressed.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Jay Honeck]

> Until this bottom-dollar mentality goes away (which it won't) GA will be
> financially distressed.

I agree with much of what you have said, but I think you may be over-stating
this aspect a bit.

EVERY businessman is "bottom-line oriented" -- or he won't be around long.
And every consumer should be looking for the best deal. That's what makes
our economy work.

With GA, there is more to it than that.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dylan Smith]

In article <k1aQb.129498$I06.1119980@attbi_s01>, Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Until this bottom-dollar mentality goes away (which it won't) GA will be
>> financially distressed.
>
> I agree with much of what you have said, but I think you may be over-stating
> this aspect a bit.
>
> EVERY businessman is "bottom-line oriented" -- or he won't be around long.
> And every consumer should be looking for the best deal. That's what makes
> our economy work.

But not to the detrement of quality. There is a tradeoff (bottom dollar
vs quality) so you can't be purely bottom dollar oriented. GA is, in the
general case, purely bottom dollar oriented - trading off too much
quality to get 'cheap' (which isn't even attainable in GA due to the
high base prices to start off with).

I don't know the history of the US automotive industry well enough, but
the British motor industry was decimated by being cheap over quality
(and making many false economies in the process). The customers voted
with their feet. That's why there is only one British car manufacturer
left, but many Japanese and German manufacturers.

I did read the case over Continental Airlines. They tried to cut
expenses and concentrate too much on the bottom line, and it almost
caused them to go bankrupt instead of saving the business. Once they had
new management who realised that you need to have some quality too they
recovered, despite their higher expenses (and fares).

Since the motor industry is well studied, it was quite easy to see the
quantity of people voting with their feet and deciding to buy German
cars and Japanese cars instead of British ones. But how many people are
voting with their feet against GA, and taking up sailing instead?

Since you run a hotel instead of a GA business, I'm sure you've already
made the assessment that you can better pay for your GA habit by running
a hotel instead of an FBO :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Robert M. Gary]

As a CFI myself I consider #1 to be unacceptable. He is demonstrating
that your time is not important to him. I would hardly say he is the
norm. There are many of us that treat this as a profession (even
though we have "real" jobs too). As a profession you must be
professional.


(Litwin) wrote in message >...
> I am a student pilot with 18 hours of flight time, and have been told
> that I am very close to soloing. However, I have reached the point
> that I am about to give it up, and not because, I cannot fly the
> pattern, do landings, steep turns, etc., or even costs or medical.
> This is why:
>
> 1. I have a competent, patient, and otherwise very good CFI. However,
> he can never be on time, and as a busy professional, and despite many
> discussions, I cannot live with this. Not 10 or 20 min late, but 1 to
> 2 hours late, and frequent. He is the only CFI at this airport.
> Unfortunately, the next closest airport with flight instruction is 65
> miles from here, so my choices are non-existent, unless I want to
> spend many hours on the road. Besides, untimely and tardy CFIs are a
> common disease in GA so I hear.
>
> 2. GA seems economically distressed. The aviation company that
> employs him has junk equipment, 2 days in a row now two different
> planes would not start. And never mind the lack of money to plow snow
> or remove compacted ice on the runway. I just don't want to spend my
> money in what looks to me to be a distressed industry that may not
> even have a bottom line in some sectors.
>
> 3. Living in the Great Lakes area, just how practical is all of this,
> with 5 to 6 months of crappy weather being typical. It is perpetual
> IFR, lots of icing, and when the plane will start, crosswind 2x or
> more the POH limitations, and headwinds that leave driving a car
> faster. Even scheduling 2 to 3 times a week, maybe only 50% of my
> lessons could go forward, and even those sometimes were marginal
> conditions. I am disappointed that this is not more practical.
>
> I learned many things, made better progress than I had envisioned, and
> really enjoyed the few timely, good days that were available, and
> really enjoyed the reading and learning. I had wanted to get my
> private pilot certif. For business and pleasure purposes. The best of
> luck to those of you who have better circumstances, I am really sorry
> to have to give it up.

[Jay Honeck]

> Since you run a hotel instead of a GA business, I'm sure you've already
> made the assessment that you can better pay for your GA habit by running
> a hotel instead of an FBO :-)

Well, neither one is going to anyone rich... ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:0BXQb.145933$I06.1466967@attbi_s01...
> > Since you run a hotel instead of a GA business, I'm sure you've already
> > made the assessment that you can better pay for your GA habit by running
> > a hotel instead of an FBO :-)
>
> Well, neither one is going to anyone rich... ;-)

I notice Bill Marriott picked hotels rather than the FBO route.

[Jay Honeck]

> I notice Bill Marriott picked hotels rather than the FBO route.

Yep, the real money is in franchising.

That's not what we're about, however. (Although we have talked about
opening another aviation-theme hotel in Florida, and running that one in the
winters, once the kids are grown...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article <3d8Rb.156890$na.264685@attbi_s04>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> > I notice Bill Marriott picked hotels rather than the FBO route.
>
> Yep, the real money is in franchising.
>
> That's not what we're about, however. (Although we have talked about
> opening another aviation-theme hotel in Florida, and running that one in the
> winters, once the kids are grown...)

Someplace like Lakeland, maybe?
Jay has this "fly-for-free" thing figured out.
Expand the business, or even the research for expanding the business,
and all his flying is tax deductable.

[Jay Honeck]

> Someplace like Lakeland, maybe?

That would be about right! ;-)

> Jay has this "fly-for-free" thing figured out.
> Expand the business, or even the research for expanding the business,
> and all his flying is tax deductable.

Every flight ends at an FBO -- and FBOs are critical in our marketing plan.
What better way to spread the word to pilots than through their trusted FBO?

And since the owners must be met with repeatedly, given promotional material
for display, schmoozed, etc., flying to FBOs is a very real part of our
business.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Sarangan]

I understand your frustration. When I started I got discouraged by
everyone including family and friends, and even the first CFI put a
wet blanket on the whole idea. I stopped for a few months, but I
started again, at a different FBO. Now I am a CFII, I teach aviation
at a community college and fly regularly. You have to want to do
something badly that you will not let anything get in the way. Since
there are no other FBO's in your area, you could consider taking a few
weeks off to go somewhere sunny and get your certificate.
Alternatively, do the hour long drive to the next airport until you
solo, then buy an airplane and fly yourself there for each lesson.
There are ways around every obstacle.



(Litwin) wrote in message >...
> Cecil-
>
> I wish I were young at 40. And yes, I enjoy flying and want to fly.
> And no there isnt more to the story, but one of the posts about poor
> maintenance is too eerily familiar. It is something called way too
> many obstacles (and not the 50' ones). But I also have a life to
> lead, and not spending endless hours on the road, you have to draw a
> reasonable line and balance somewhere.. I cant change the behavior of
> an otherwise decent CFI who has serious punctuality problems, in a
> situation of near monopoly, and a pathetic FBO that is the only game
> in town. People like myself, despite having the money, the interest,
> and desire are not a big priority in GA, and I have reconciled to that
> in my decision. (E.g. only one AOPA "mentor" for my entire state). The
> weather kind of tipped the scale for me. Watching those poor slobs
> trying to handprop that junky tomahawk out in the snow today just
> reinforced things for me. I really feel like i am missing out, but
> the ecomomic health of GA really says a lot to people like me.
>
>
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message >...
> > >The next closest ga instruction is 90
> > > miles. College and post grad were closer, and yes I want to fly, but
> > > what preposterous conditions, its just not a reasonable sacrifice for
> > > me. I guess it is different in the big city.
> >
> > ? I drive 60 miles to my flight training and like the school so much I
> > would easily drive another 30 miles to get there.
> >
> > Sounds like you already bought in to the 'oh I give up', mindset already, so
> > I might be more than a little too late... but here it goes.
> >
> > At my first flight school (which I fondly refer to as the Nightmare On
> > Skyway) I went through four or five instructors (they kept leaving for
> > better FBOs) while trying to work for my PPL and don't even get me started
> > on the 'interesting' flight time & flight accounting methods that were used
> > there. Anyway, at some point I said enough was enough and found a
> > flightschool that was a little over an hour away from my home. Finished my
> > PPL there, rent from the FBO, and am now finishing up my Instrument rating
> > there (to be followed by more ratings immediately thereafter).
> >
> > I did this and persevered because I wanted to fly,,,, nothing was going to
> > prevent me from becoming a private pilot. NOTHING.
> >
> > Geez, man,,,,, ya got to WANT to fly! Just conjecture here, but are you
> > sure that there wasn't something that spooked you along the way and that
> > blaming that sad excuse for an FBO for your wanting to quit isn't a cover
> > for something else? Did you REALLY REALLY LOVE IT (flying)? Or was it just
> > a bit better than renting a good video, for ya?
> >
> > I'll bet you're young, so I'll share a 'life secret' you probably haven't
> > really took to heart, yet - Life will throw obstacles in your path, which
> > you either succumb to (playing the victim) or actively choose to rise above.
> > You will learn, eventually that the real measure of a man (or woman) is not
> > what happens to them but how they handle those things that stand in their
> > life-path. Experience is not what happens to us, but what we THINK about
> > what happens to us.
> >
> > [Cecil,,, hops off the tree stump]
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > --
> > --
> > =-----
> > Good Flights!
> >
> > Cecil
> > PP-ASEL
> >
> > Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
> > www.bayareapilot.com
> >
> > "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> > - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
> >
> > "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
> > this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> > - Cecil Day Lewis -
> > > I am giving my flight bag with the books, videos, kneeboard and
> > > headset to my nephew down south, if he wants them, perhaps he will
> > > have more enjoyable circumstances than i encountered when he is old
> > > enough to fly.
> > >
> > > I learned a lot and progressed better than I imagined, and enjoyed the
> > > very few good days. I never thought I could learn to control and land
> > > an airplane unassisted, but I did. The fact that i could at least do
> > > that is pretty cool.
> > >
> > > I drove out after my "resignation" in a developing whiteout, knowing
> > > that the coming 3 or 4 days of low IFR left me confident that learning
> > > to fly is not practical in these parts, as the headlights of my former
> > > CFI were turning into the airport, 45 minutes late

[CVBreard]

>Alternatively, do the hour long drive to the next airport...>>

When I started flying as a student pilot, it took literally all afternoon to
ride the buses (3 different city busses - one of which ran only every hour) to
the airport and 3 busses back (no car as a college student) to get an hour of
flight instruction.

If you want to fly bad enough, you do what you have to.

Soapbox mode OFF.