Engine "on demand" regulation??

[Frode Berg]

Hi!

Just spoke to my mechanic, and he told me that there will be a new
regulation here in Norway for private aircraft that takes away the mandatory
engine replacement after approx 2000 hours.
Instead, an engine is allowed to run indefinately as long as the regular
maintenance is carried out at a sertified shop.
He said this is the way it works in the US. Can someone verify this, and
tell me, does anyone ever replace their engine if this is the regulations
apart from when having a total failure (fire and such..)

Also, what are the safety issues?
Does a new engine actually perform better?
He told me about a C177 that came to his shop from the US for overhaul
(change of a couple of sylinders +) and it had over 9000 hours on it's
engine...

I thought it was mandatory everywere to replace an engine after 2000 hours
(or whatever time on individual engines).
If this gets approved, it certainly is good news for us private operators.
Maybe a GNS430 is not so far reach anyway....(our engine is just over 2000
hours now...)

Thanks,

Frode Berg

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Frode Berg" > wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Just spoke to my mechanic, and he told me that there will be a new
> regulation here in Norway for private aircraft that takes away the mandatory
> engine replacement after approx 2000 hours.
> Instead, an engine is allowed to run indefinately as long as the regular
> maintenance is carried out at a sertified shop.
> He said this is the way it works in the US. Can someone verify this, and
> tell me, does anyone ever replace their engine if this is the regulations
> apart from when having a total failure (fire and such..)

That regulation applies only if the plane is used for commercial
operations. Privately-used planes can fly until the engine fails to pass
compression or oil consumption specs, or start making metal.




> Also, what are the safety issues?
> Does a new engine actually perform better?
> He told me about a C177 that came to his shop from the US for overhaul
> (change of a couple of sylinders +) and it had over 9000 hours on it's
> engine...

I doubt seriously that the C177 had 9000 hrs between overhauls. It
probably had at least four overhauls, but used the same cylinders and
crank. Most other parts, including the cam, valves, lifters and
followers were probably replaced at overhaul.




> I thought it was mandatory everywere to replace an engine after 2000 hours
> (or whatever time on individual engines).

Not in the US!

Such regulations are the product of non-GA types writing the rules.

> If this gets approved, it certainly is good news for us private operators.
> Maybe a GNS430 is not so far reach anyway....(our engine is just over 2000
> hours now...)

[John Galban]

"Frode Berg" > wrote in message >...
> He said this is the way it works in the US. Can someone verify this, and
> tell me, does anyone ever replace their engine if this is the regulations
> apart from when having a total failure (fire and such..)

Yes, that's the rule in the U.S. You can run your engine beyond TBO
if you're not for-hire. Usually, we don't wait for a total failure
before overhauling. I'm just about to run past TBO on my engine. My
AI and I have agreed on a regular program of oil analysis and careful
monitoring of temps and pressures for signs that the engine is
wearing. Of course, the first time that the engine needs any costly
work (like a new cylinder), that will immediately become overhaul
time. This engine has been rock-solid for the last 1300 hrs. that
I've owned it, so I expect to get a few hundred more before replacing
it. It puts off the $15K expense of an overhaul for maybe a year or
two, but not indefinitely.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Frode Berg wrote:
>
> He said this is the way it works in the US.

That's the way it works for many aircraft. There are certain types of businesses
that have to have the engine overhauled at the service time specified by the
engine manufacturer, but others don't have to do so. Note that the engine is
usually overhauled. Few people replace an engine with a brand new one, and the
regulations don't require replacement with new. Many individuals who own aircraft
will continue to operate the plane until the engine starts to give signs of
wearing out. These signs would be things like using too much oil, oil fouling
the plugs, poor compression, and so on.

> Also, what are the safety issues?

Older engines are more prone to failure. I've read, for example, that this is a
big problem with the Douglas DC-3 as new original engines can't be bought anymore.

> Does a new engine actually perform better?

An overhauled engine should perform as well as a new one, and some shops produce
engines which they claim are better than new.

> He told me about a C177 that came to his shop from the US for overhaul
> (change of a couple of sylinders +) and it had over 9000 hours on it's
> engine...

It's possible for an engine to last that long if it were overhauled several times
during that 9,000 hours. It's highly unlikely that one would live that long without
an overhaul.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Frode Berg]

Hi!

Thanks for all replies.

When you say "overhaul", what does this imply?
Is it an engine change, or just a major visit to the shop going through
everything and changing whatever is needed?

Here, a major overhaul means dismounting the engine, sending it to Lycoming
(or continental) and putting a factory overhauled one back in.
This costs approx $20.000 + shipping (over $1200) + additional parts and of
course labour...

However, if "overhaul" means replacing a cylinder or two, inspecting
cranckshaft, changing magnetos adn plugs, and generally going through
everything, this is a complete different matter, and probably much cheaper,
no?

Thanks,

Frode
"G.R. Patterson III" > skrev i melding
...
>
>
> Frode Berg wrote:
> >
> > He said this is the way it works in the US.
>
> That's the way it works for many aircraft. There are certain types of
businesses
> that have to have the engine overhauled at the service time specified by
the
> engine manufacturer, but others don't have to do so. Note that the engine
is
> usually overhauled. Few people replace an engine with a brand new one, and
the
> regulations don't require replacement with new. Many individuals who own
aircraft
> will continue to operate the plane until the engine starts to give signs
of
> wearing out. These signs would be things like using too much oil, oil
fouling
> the plugs, poor compression, and so on.
>
> > Also, what are the safety issues?
>
> Older engines are more prone to failure. I've read, for example, that this
is a
> big problem with the Douglas DC-3 as new original engines can't be bought
anymore.
>
> > Does a new engine actually perform better?
>
> An overhauled engine should perform as well as a new one, and some shops
produce
> engines which they claim are better than new.
>
> > He told me about a C177 that came to his shop from the US for overhaul
> > (change of a couple of sylinders +) and it had over 9000 hours on it's
> > engine...
>
> It's possible for an engine to last that long if it were overhauled
several times
> during that 9,000 hours. It's highly unlikely that one would live that
long without
> an overhaul.
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Frode Berg"
> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Thanks for all replies.
>
> When you say "overhaul", what does this imply?
> Is it an engine change, or just a major visit to the shop going through
> everything and changing whatever is needed?

note: I'm not an A&P, so I might get some of the terms wrong.

At a minimum, "Overhaul" means disassembly, checking that
each part is within service limits, and reassembly. I think
there are also some parts that must be replaced whenever the engine
is disassembled.

Most people I know want an overhaul to new limits, where each
part is checked to make sure that it has the same dimensions
as a new part. Also, some overhaul shops replace some additional
parts with new because their experience is that doing so will
reduce problems down the road.

When I had my engine overhauled, I didn't do an engine swap.
The engine only had ~2300 hours TT, so I had it overhaul to
new limits (and opted for new cylinders). A friend saved
time by doing ae engine swap.

--
Bob Noel

[G.R. Patterson III]

Frode Berg wrote:
>
> When you say "overhaul", what does this imply?
> Is it an engine change, or just a major visit to the shop going through
> everything and changing whatever is needed?

As Bob Noel says, they take the engine apart and make sure that every part meets
the specifications for reinstallation (the "service limits"). Some people prefer
to make sure that all parts meet the specifications for new parts. The key is
that this can be done by any competent mechanic; the engine does not have to go
back to Lycoming or Continental.

Shop policies also differ. When Lycoming overhauls an engine, they replace all
the cylinders and pistons with new ones. A local shop may recondition the old
cylinders and reuse them. A cylinder on something like an O-320 can typically
last 5,000 hours or so before it becomes risky to use it.

The bottom line is that getting an overhaul done by one of the major shops can
save you several thousand dollars over getting one done by Lycoming, and having
one done locally (called a "field overhaul") can save you even more. I've even
known some people to overhaul the engine themselves. This requires that a
certified mechanic oversee the work.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:

> Frode Berg wrote:
> >
> > When you say "overhaul", what does this imply?
> > Is it an engine change, or just a major visit to the shop going through
> > everything and changing whatever is needed?
>
> As Bob Noel says, they take the engine apart and make sure that every part
> meets
> the specifications for reinstallation (the "service limits"). Some people
> prefer
> to make sure that all parts meet the specifications for new parts. The key is
> that this can be done by any competent mechanic; the engine does not have to
> go
> back to Lycoming or Continental.
>
> Shop policies also differ. When Lycoming overhauls an engine, they replace
> all
> the cylinders and pistons with new ones. A local shop may recondition the old
> cylinders and reuse them. A cylinder on something like an O-320 can typically
> last 5,000 hours or so before it becomes risky to use it.
>
> The bottom line is that getting an overhaul done by one of the major shops
> can
> save you several thousand dollars over getting one done by Lycoming, and
> having
> one done locally (called a "field overhaul") can save you even more. I've
> even
> known some people to overhaul the engine themselves. This requires that a
> certified mechanic oversee the work.

That's the way i did my last overhaul. I had the cylinders ground .010"
oversize, installed all new bearings, valves, valve seats, pistons,
rings, lifters and followers, seals, etc. It is NOT rocket science! All
it really requires is the ability to use a torque wrench, common sense,
a source of parts.