emergency egress, sans 'chute?

[Piet Barber]

I once visited a flying club where all of the pilots routinely used parachutes for all flights. For instruction, personal flying, all flying. I found this to be a great safety initiative.

However, I was horrified to see some of the experienced instructors get out of the gliders by unbelting the aircraft harnesses, then unfastening the parachute, and getting out, leaving the parachute in the glider. (I won't say the name of the club to protect the guilty). I scolded them, "You shouldn't do that, you'll get in the habit, and someday, when the need arises, you'll have to bail out in an emergency. You'll follow that habit and jump out of the aircraft without the parachute."

But then I thought about it: Surely nobody would ever *actually* do that in an emergency! Right?

Earlier today, while reading this blog at soaring cafe,
http://soaringcafe.com/2012/05/the-bailout-decision-are-you-ready/4/
and watching the video here:
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1404862537001

....the master parachute rigger in that video claimed that there were documented cases of pilots bailing out without parachutes; after having fallen back to their habitual procedure of unfastening the aircraft harness, then unfastening the parachute harness, then bailing out sans parachute.

Does anybody actually know about this ever happening?

(I've also e-mailed the guy who did that excellent presentation, asking him to back up the claim).

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 10/24/2012 2:28 PM, Piet Barber wrote:
> However, I was horrified to see some of the experienced instructors
> get out of the gliders by unbelting the aircraft harnesses, then
> unfastening the parachute, and getting out, leaving the parachute in
> the glider. (I won't say the name of the club to protect the
> guilty). I scolded them, "You shouldn't do that, you'll get in the
> habit, and someday, when the need arises, you'll have to bail out in
> an emergency. You'll follow that habit and jump out of the aircraft
> without the parachute."

I've wondered if that ever happened, also. I used to leave the 'chute in
the glider, but now I don't for an entirely different than the one
stated above: I want to make sure I still have the strength and agility
required to lift me and the parachute out of the glider.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 10/24/2012 3:28 PM, Piet Barber wrote:
> <Snip...>
>
> However, I was horrified to see some of the experienced instructors get out
> of the gliders by unbelting the aircraft harnesses, then unfastening the
> parachute, and getting out, leaving the parachute in the glider. (I won't
> say the name of the club to protect the guilty). I scolded them, "You
> shouldn't do that, you'll get in the habit, and someday, when the need
> arises, you'll have to bail out in an emergency. You'll follow that habit
> and jump out of the aircraft without the parachute."
>
> But then I thought about it: Surely nobody would ever *actually* do that in
> an emergency! Right?
>
> Earlier today, while reading this blog at soaring cafe,
> http://soaringcafe.com/2012/05/the-bailout-decision-are-you-ready/4/ and
> watching the video here:
> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1404862537001
>
> ...the master parachute rigger in that video claimed that there were
> documented cases of pilots bailing out without parachutes; after having
> fallen back to their habitual procedure of unfastening the aircraft
> harness, then unfastening the parachute harness, then bailing out sans
> parachute.
>
> Does anybody actually know about this ever happening?
>
> (I've also e-mailed the guy who did that excellent presentation, asking him
> to back up the claim).

A few years ago I had the opportunity - and was happy for it - to attend an
Allen Silver presentation (same topic as on the EAA video). All I knew of him
going in was that he was a Master Rigger.

Color me Seriously Impressed at the end of the presentation.

He was: understated; matter of factly wryly hummorous; seriously qualified at
many levels to make such a presentation; entirely believable based on my
background as a "show me" engineer with a (long, long ago) history of one
bailout from a single-seat sailplane (because it seemed like the thing to do
at the time).

Let us know what he says in reply to your query, because I, too, wondered of
the background to the claim (but lacked the gumption to ask!). That said, I'd
been following his advice for decades before I heard it, because "it seemed
like a good idea." Still does. Habits being powerful things, my nickel is on
his claim having real basis in fact...

In any event, who among us would want to be the first to prove him right, if
he's playing a bit fast and loose with the facts on this particular claim. :-)

Bob W.

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

There has been no such case in the UK in the last 40 plus years, I am
certain. I have not heard of any before that, nor have I ever heard of one
from any other part of the World. I think if there ever had been such an
event it would have been widely reported and we would all know about it.

It's possible that the stories originate from bomber crews in WW II, many
of whom had parachutes stowed in the aircraft, not worn in flight, who
jumped, without 'chute, from a burning aircraft, rather than stay in and
burn.

At 01:24 25 October 2012, Bob Whelan wrote:
>On 10/24/2012 3:28 PM, Piet Barber wrote:
>>
>>
>> However, I was horrified to see some of the experienced instructors get
>out
>> of the gliders by unbelting the aircraft harnesses, then unfastening
the
>> parachute, and getting out, leaving the parachute in the glider. (I
>won't
>> say the name of the club to protect the guilty). I scolded them, "You
>> shouldn't do that, you'll get in the habit, and someday, when the need
>> arises, you'll have to bail out in an emergency. You'll follow that
habit
>> and jump out of the aircraft without the parachute."
>>
>> But then I thought about it: Surely nobody would ever *actually* do
that
>in
>> an emergency! Right?
>>
>> Earlier today, while reading this blog at soaring cafe,
>> http://soaringcafe.com/2012/05/the-bailout-decision-are-you-ready/4/
and
>> watching the video here:
>> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1404862537001
>>
>> ...the master parachute rigger in that video claimed that there were
>> documented cases of pilots bailing out without parachutes; after having
>> fallen back to their habitual procedure of unfastening the aircraft
>> harness, then unfastening the parachute harness, then bailing out sans
>> parachute.
>>
>> Does anybody actually know about this ever happening?
>>
>> (I've also e-mailed the guy who did that excellent presentation, asking
>him
>> to back up the claim).
>
>A few years ago I had the opportunity - and was happy for it - to attend
an
>
>Allen Silver presentation (same topic as on the EAA video). All I knew of
>him
>going in was that he was a Master Rigger.
>
>Color me Seriously Impressed at the end of the presentation.
>
>He was: understated; matter of factly wryly hummorous; seriously
qualified
>at
>many levels to make such a presentation; entirely believable based on my
>background as a "show me" engineer with a (long, long ago) history of one

>bailout from a single-seat sailplane (because it seemed like the thing to
>do
>at the time).
>
>Let us know what he says in reply to your query, because I, too, wondered
>of
>the background to the claim (but lacked the gumption to ask!). That said,
>I'd
>been following his advice for decades before I heard it, because "it
seemed
>
>like a good idea." Still does. Habits being powerful things, my nickel is
>on
>his claim having real basis in fact...
>
>In any event, who among us would want to be the first to prove him right,
>if
>he's playing a bit fast and loose with the facts on this particular
claim.
>:-)
>
>Bob W.
>

[Kevin Neave[_2_]]

I believe there was a case at Nympsfield where an Open Cirrus had elevator
circuit failure and the pilot "almost" got out without taking 'chute. After
sitting back down & doing up 'chute straps a successful bailout was
achieved.

KN

At 06:45 25 October 2012, Chris Rollings wrote:
>There has been no such case in the UK in the last 40 plus years, I am
>certain. I have not heard of any before that, nor have I ever heard of
one
>from any other part of the World. I think if there ever had been such an
>event it would have been widely reported and we would all know about it.
>
>It's possible that the stories originate from bomber crews in WW II, many
>of whom had parachutes stowed in the aircraft, not worn in flight, who
>jumped, without 'chute, from a burning aircraft, rather than stay in and
>burn.
>
>At 01:24 25 October 2012, Bob Whelan wrote:
>>On 10/24/2012 3:28 PM, Piet Barber wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> However, I was horrified to see some of the experienced instructors
get
>>out
>>> of the gliders by unbelting the aircraft harnesses, then unfastening
>the
>>> parachute, and getting out, leaving the parachute in the glider. (I
>>won't
>>> say the name of the club to protect the guilty). I scolded them, "You
>>> shouldn't do that, you'll get in the habit, and someday, when the need
>>> arises, you'll have to bail out in an emergency. You'll follow that
>habit
>>> and jump out of the aircraft without the parachute."
>>>
>>> But then I thought about it: Surely nobody would ever *actually* do
>that
>>in
>>> an emergency! Right?
>>>
>>> Earlier today, while reading this blog at soaring cafe,
>>> http://soaringcafe.com/2012/05/the-bailout-decision-are-you-ready/4/
>and
>>> watching the video here:
>>> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1404862537001
>>>
>>> ...the master parachute rigger in that video claimed that there were
>>> documented cases of pilots bailing out without parachutes; after
having
>>> fallen back to their habitual procedure of unfastening the aircraft
>>> harness, then unfastening the parachute harness, then bailing out sans
>>> parachute.
>>>
>>> Does anybody actually know about this ever happening?
>>>
>>> (I've also e-mailed the guy who did that excellent presentation,
asking
>>him
>>> to back up the claim).
>>
>>A few years ago I had the opportunity - and was happy for it - to attend
>an
>>
>>Allen Silver presentation (same topic as on the EAA video). All I knew
of
>>him
>>going in was that he was a Master Rigger.
>>
>>Color me Seriously Impressed at the end of the presentation.
>>
>>He was: understated; matter of factly wryly hummorous; seriously
>qualified
>>at
>>many levels to make such a presentation; entirely believable based on my

>>background as a "show me" engineer with a (long, long ago) history of
one
>
>>bailout from a single-seat sailplane (because it seemed like the thing
to
>>do
>>at the time).
>>
>>Let us know what he says in reply to your query, because I, too,
wondered
>>of
>>the background to the claim (but lacked the gumption to ask!). That
said,
>>I'd
>>been following his advice for decades before I heard it, because "it
>seemed
>>
>>like a good idea." Still does. Habits being powerful things, my nickel
is
>>on
>>his claim having real basis in fact...
>>
>>In any event, who among us would want to be the first to prove him
right,
>>if
>>he's playing a bit fast and loose with the facts on this particular
>claim.
>>:-)
>>
>>Bob W.
>>
>
>

[JohnDeRosa]

Allen Silver is highly recommended as a speaker on the topic of
parachutes. It was his speech at an SSA convention that convinced me
to always exit the glider as if I was about to bail out to reinforce
the "habits" I will need in a real emergency; 1) Go through the
actions of releasing the canopy (without activating of course), 2)
exit the glider with the parachute still on and 3) look down at the
parachute handle and mimic pulling it straight out with both hands.
Hope I never need it but...

Allen also makes some nice emergency packs to hang on the parachute
straps.

http://www.silverparachutes.com/smak-pak-survival-kits/

- John

[[email protected]]

I am certainly not afraid that I would undo the parachute straps in an emergency bailout.
However, I mostly step out of the glider with the parachute on the back - because it makes a difference! Seatbelt lock get messed up with the parachute, weight is significant, mobility reduced. These are all things I'd like to be used to should I really need to act under shock one day.

[Max Kirschner[_2_]]

At 14:57 25 October 2012, wrote:
>I am certainly not afraid that I would undo the parachute straps in an
>emer=
>gency bailout.
>However, I mostly step out of the glider with the parachute on the back -
>b=
>ecause it makes a difference! Seatbelt lock get messed up with the
>parachut=
>e, weight is significant, mobility reduced. These are all things I'd like
>t=
>o be used to should I really need to act under shock one day.
>

There was a case in the UK of an RAF Pilot jumping out of a Bulldog, he
fell out of his unfastened harness.

[gb]

early 90's Pitts came apart is one where this is suspected.

[Andrew[_13_]]

Was that Open Cirrus comp number 272? Before this accident
flown at the SGU? Later rebuilt and flown at Talgarth? Does
anyone know?


At 09:00 25 October 2012, Kevin Neave wrote:
>I believe there was a case at Nympsfield where an Open Cirrus
had elevator
>circuit failure and the pilot "almost" got out without taking 'chute.
After
>sitting back down & doing up 'chute straps a successful bailout
was
>achieved.
>
>KN
>
>At 06:45 25 October 2012, Chris Rollings wrote:
>>There has been no such case in the UK in the last 40 plus
years, I am
>>certain. I have not heard of any before that, nor have I ever
heard of
>one
>>from any other part of the World. I think if there ever had
been such an
>>event it would have been widely reported and we would all
know about it.
>>
>>It's possible that the stories originate from bomber crews in
WW II, many
>>of whom had parachutes stowed in the aircraft, not worn in
flight, who
>>jumped, without 'chute, from a burning aircraft, rather than
stay in and
>>burn.
>>
>>At 01:24 25 October 2012, Bob Whelan wrote:
>>>On 10/24/2012 3:28 PM, Piet Barber wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, I was horrified to see some of the experienced
instructors
>get
>>>out
>>>> of the gliders by unbelting the aircraft harnesses, then
unfastening
>>the
>>>> parachute, and getting out, leaving the parachute in the
glider. (I
>>>won't
>>>> say the name of the club to protect the guilty). I scolded
them, "You
>>>> shouldn't do that, you'll get in the habit, and someday,
when the need
>>>> arises, you'll have to bail out in an emergency. You'll follow
that
>>habit
>>>> and jump out of the aircraft without the parachute."
>>>>
>>>> But then I thought about it: Surely nobody would ever
*actually* do
>>that
>>>in
>>>> an emergency! Right?
>>>>
>>>> Earlier today, while reading this blog at soaring cafe,
>>>> http://soaringcafe.com/2012/05/the-bailout-decision-are-
you-ready/4/
>>and
>>>> watching the video here:
>>>> http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1404862537001
>>>>
>>>> ...the master parachute rigger in that video claimed that
there were
>>>> documented cases of pilots bailing out without parachutes;
after
>having
>>>> fallen back to their habitual procedure of unfastening the
aircraft
>>>> harness, then unfastening the parachute harness, then
bailing out sans
>>>> parachute.
>>>>
>>>> Does anybody actually know about this ever happening?
>>>>
>>>> (I've also e-mailed the guy who did that excellent
presentation,
>asking
>>>him
>>>> to back up the claim).
>>>
>>>A few years ago I had the opportunity - and was happy for it
- to attend
>>an
>>>
>>>Allen Silver presentation (same topic as on the EAA video).
All I knew
>of
>>>him
>>>going in was that he was a Master Rigger.
>>>
>>>Color me Seriously Impressed at the end of the presentation.
>>>
>>>He was: understated; matter of factly wryly hummorous;
seriously
>>qualified
>>>at
>>>many levels to make such a presentation; entirely believable
based on my
>
>>>background as a "show me" engineer with a (long, long ago)
history of
>one
>>
>>>bailout from a single-seat sailplane (because it seemed like
the thing
>to
>>>do
>>>at the time).
>>>
>>>Let us know what he says in reply to your query, because I,
too,
>wondered
>>>of
>>>the background to the claim (but lacked the gumption to
ask!). That
>said,
>>>I'd
>>>been following his advice for decades before I heard it,
because "it
>>seemed
>>>
>>>like a good idea." Still does. Habits being powerful things, my
nickel
>is
>>>on
>>>his claim having real basis in fact...
>>>
>>>In any event, who among us would want to be the first to
prove him
>right,
>>>if
>>>he's playing a bit fast and loose with the facts on this
particular
>>claim.
>>>:-)
>>>
>>>Bob W.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[[email protected]]

In the same line of tought, I read about a parachutist-cameraman who jumped to his death, having completely forgotten to put on his parachute, in the excitement of filming an interesting jump.

[[email protected]]

I wouldn't rush to call them "guilty" w/o evidence that it's wrong. I exit my glider w/o the chute every flight. I can rotate the seat belt release in 1/2 a second. Releasing the chute takes almost a minute with gymnastic maneuvers, so I know there is zero chance of struggling to unfasten the chute before a bailout.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, October 26, 2012 5:05:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> I wouldn't rush to call them "guilty" w/o evidence that it's wrong. I exit my glider w/o the chute every flight. I can rotate the seat belt release in 1/2 a second. Releasing the chute takes almost a minute with gymnastic maneuvers, so I know there is zero chance of struggling to unfasten the chute before a bailout.

Thank you Bruce, just my sentiment. I was reluctant to state what you did fearing I'd be labeled an irresponsible bleepin' idiot by the righteous on this site for not being concerned about unfastening my chute before the jump. Since I don't have quick disconnects,it's a real fumble to open the harnesses. I do that while waiting for the golf cart and exit the glider without chute.