Your very own suspected terrorist

[Michael]

I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
I never thought I would be first.

I came home from the airport last night to find a business card stuck
in the door of my apartment. It had the embossed gold emblem (which
costs quite a bit extra - I guess, unlike the company I work for, the
federal government isn't exactly watching its pennies) of the FBI, and
a note on the back asking me to call. I did, but of course everyone
had gone home for the day so all I got was voice mail.

In the morning, I left another message - seems nobody was in the
office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with
me personally. At first he didn't want to tell me what it was about,
being vague about having to investigate a complaint, but when I
pressed him he broke down and told me I was under suspicion as a
terrorist! I nearly cracked up.

I suppose that had I actually been an international terrorist, I would
have immediately driven to the airport and taken the next flight out
of the country. Or, given that the Mexican border is only a few hours
drive South, I could have left that way. Then again, I suppose I
would have done that the previous evening, the moment I saw the card.
But since I'm not a terrorist, I simply made an appointment to meet
him at work.

He showed up at the receptionist's desk later that morning. He wore a
suit and tie and carried a briefcase, so he didn't look out of place.
I escorted him to my office, told him to take a seat, and closed the
door. He showed me his ID, and we got down to business.

The agent had NOT done his homework. He didn't know how old I was,
where I was born - anything. Since I am a naturalized citizen, I know
I have a file at the INS - but he didn't, and didn't even bother to
check. After we got through the basics, the story came out.

Seems that someone at my apartment complex had pegged me as
suspicious. I was getting packages and magazines with aviation
markings, and some of them were marked as hazardous materials. Of
course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
preservatives, and adhesives are all considered hazardous materials.
Yup, you guessed it. The stuff I had shipped to do my annual this
year (and it was a big annual) made me a terrorism suspect. A dark
tan (we don't have much of a winter in Houston, and I tan easily) and
a beard sealed the deal.

I told him about my airplane, and the annual I was doing. I even
showed him a picture. Like most people, he was amazed that the plane
was a 1965 model, and noted that they seem to hold up better than
cars. No, they don't - they require lots of care. Thus all the boxes
of parts, primers, paints, lubricants... He examined my pilot and
flight instructor certificates, and seemed confused. He said he
couldn't find an expiration date on my pilot certificate. I had to
explain to him that unlike flight instructor certificates, pilot
certificates don't expire. He carefully noted the numbers on his pad,
but I could see his heart wasn't in it anymore.

A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
nonsense.

Michael
The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist

[Jay Honeck]

> A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
> moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
> returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
> nonsense.

Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a RAIN
FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa (I'm NOT kidding), it's relative peanuts I'm
sure...

Scary, though.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Geoffrey Barnes]

Yeah, well, I have my eye on you mister <g>...

[Michael 182]

Admittedly, the agent should have done more homework before seeing you, but
on the other hand, it doesn't seem that unreasonable - he is not an aviation
specialist - should he proactively research the legalities associated with
each profession he comes in contact with? Should he know the bar
requirements for law before visiting a lawyer, the certification for a
doctor, accountant and engineer before those interviews?

If your work brings you into contact with a broad array of situations, as I
suspect law enforcement does, a lot of knowledge gathering will, by
necessity, be real time.

Michael


"Michael" > wrote in message
m...
> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.
>
> I came home from the airport last night to find a business card stuck
> in the door of my apartment. It had the embossed gold emblem (which
> costs quite a bit extra - I guess, unlike the company I work for, the
> federal government isn't exactly watching its pennies) of the FBI, and
> a note on the back asking me to call. I did, but of course everyone
> had gone home for the day so all I got was voice mail.
>
> In the morning, I left another message - seems nobody was in the
> office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
> special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
> differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with
> me personally. At first he didn't want to tell me what it was about,
> being vague about having to investigate a complaint, but when I
> pressed him he broke down and told me I was under suspicion as a
> terrorist! I nearly cracked up.
>
> I suppose that had I actually been an international terrorist, I would
> have immediately driven to the airport and taken the next flight out
> of the country. Or, given that the Mexican border is only a few hours
> drive South, I could have left that way. Then again, I suppose I
> would have done that the previous evening, the moment I saw the card.
> But since I'm not a terrorist, I simply made an appointment to meet
> him at work.
>
> He showed up at the receptionist's desk later that morning. He wore a
> suit and tie and carried a briefcase, so he didn't look out of place.
> I escorted him to my office, told him to take a seat, and closed the
> door. He showed me his ID, and we got down to business.
>
> The agent had NOT done his homework. He didn't know how old I was,
> where I was born - anything. Since I am a naturalized citizen, I know
> I have a file at the INS - but he didn't, and didn't even bother to
> check. After we got through the basics, the story came out.
>
> Seems that someone at my apartment complex had pegged me as
> suspicious. I was getting packages and magazines with aviation
> markings, and some of them were marked as hazardous materials. Of
> course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
> preservatives, and adhesives are all considered hazardous materials.
> Yup, you guessed it. The stuff I had shipped to do my annual this
> year (and it was a big annual) made me a terrorism suspect. A dark
> tan (we don't have much of a winter in Houston, and I tan easily) and
> a beard sealed the deal.
>
> I told him about my airplane, and the annual I was doing. I even
> showed him a picture. Like most people, he was amazed that the plane
> was a 1965 model, and noted that they seem to hold up better than
> cars. No, they don't - they require lots of care. Thus all the boxes
> of parts, primers, paints, lubricants... He examined my pilot and
> flight instructor certificates, and seemed confused. He said he
> couldn't find an expiration date on my pilot certificate. I had to
> explain to him that unlike flight instructor certificates, pilot
> certificates don't expire. He carefully noted the numbers on his pad,
> but I could see his heart wasn't in it anymore.
>
> A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
> moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
> returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
> nonsense.
>
> Michael
> The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist

[Dan Luke]

"Michael" wrote:
> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.

My first thought was: "That's outrageous!" but then I thought, "...well,
how else are terrorists already in the U. S. going to get caught? People
have to speak up if something makes them suspicious."

That doesn't make it any less of a sad commentary on how great the real
terrorists' influence has grown in this country. My apologies to you as
a fellow citizen.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Gary]

> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.
>

<good story snipped>

It would be interesting to know if from now on you get extra special
treatment as a commercial airline passenger.

[C J Campbell]

Heh, heh, heh. And if you step out of line we will report you AGAIN!

Seriously, instead of doing a big background check and looking up all your
papers, sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you. He
was able to learn a lot more about you and the issues involved that way.
They would have noticed if you had tried to flee.

[Rob Perkins]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a RAIN
>FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa (I'm NOT kidding), it's relative peanuts I'm
>sure...

WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
sense...

Iowa doesn't have the yearly precipitation needed for rainforest
climates, does it?

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> Seriously, instead of doing a big background check and looking up all your
> papers, sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you. He
> was able to learn a lot more about you and the issues involved that way.
> They would have noticed if you had tried to flee.

Right. Had he been a real terrorist, Michael would have evaporated into thin
air when the doofus FBI agent left his card on his door.

Criminy -- this "special agent" acted less covertly than I did when I was
looking for dead-beat dads in the inner city. I sure hope his actions
aren't representative of our national security efforts.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[C J Campbell]

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message
...
| "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
|
| >Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a RAIN
| >FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa (I'm NOT kidding), it's relative peanuts
I'm
| >sure...
|
| WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
| sense...
|
| Iowa doesn't have the yearly precipitation needed for rainforest
| climates, does it?

It was done in retaliation for the Iowa delegation's constant interference
with how western states and Alaska develop their resources. Western and
Alaskan legislators have also proposed creating an Iowa wilderness area,
mandating that all economic development in the state stop immediately and
that the entire state be replanted in trees.

[Rob Perkins]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>Criminy -- this "special agent" acted less covertly than I did when I was
>looking for dead-beat dads in the inner city. I sure hope his actions
>aren't representative of our national security efforts.

Perhaps the agent knew he wasn't going to be interviewing a terrorist
and just did it so the people who tipped him off would see due
diligence on the part of the FBI?

Your tax dollars at work.

Rob

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Michael) said:
>office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
>special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
>differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with

It's like a student in special class versus one in a regular class.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
10 ways to stop users mistaking you for a normal person (4): When booting
a workstation, shout out all console output 1/2 a second before it
appears. Do this with your eyes closed and fists clenched. -- Steve Mitchell

[C J Campbell]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:UBfQb.4483$U%5.26339@attbi_s03...
| > Seriously, instead of doing a big background check and looking up all
your
| > papers, sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you.
He
| > was able to learn a lot more about you and the issues involved that way.
| > They would have noticed if you had tried to flee.
|
| Right. Had he been a real terrorist, Michael would have evaporated into
thin
| air when the doofus FBI agent left his card on his door.
|
| Criminy -- this "special agent" acted less covertly than I did when I was
| looking for dead-beat dads in the inner city. I sure hope his actions
| aren't representative of our national security efforts.
| --

The agent did not seriously believe that Michael was a terrorist and had
reason to believe that we knew enough about him that he was not a terrorist.

He may have told Michael that he had not looked at his INS file and may only
have been pretending to be ignorant of its contents. He might have gotten
more serious if Michael had answered questions contrarily to what the FBI
already knew.

The FBI routinely looks at your checking accounts when they begin an
investigation and would have done this before even contacting Michael. They
would have checked to see whether endorsements on checks deposited in his
account matched other signatures they had of his, for example. They would
also have looked for anomalous disbursements or deposits. This technique has
been so successful at uncovering terrorists that the FBI has not really
changed its methods in 40 years. Originally they started checking bank
accounts at random just to see what would turn up. They found one bank
account that had checks bearing five different signatures all with the same
name. They sent a rookie agent by the name of Jason Moulton out to stake out
the house and he ended up catching Patty Hearst and several other members of
the Symbionese Liberation Army. Not bad for a rookie. He told me that when
he went in through the back door that Patty Hearst was sitting at a kitchen
table, cleaning a disassembled weapon. He was real glad that she was not
armed.

[C J Campbell]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
| In a previous article, (Michael) said:
| >office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
| >special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
| >differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with
|
| It's like a student in special class versus one in a regular class.
|

A special agent is one that does investigative work. Most of the people that
you meet in US intelligence agencies are special agents. They are the guys
(and gals) on the front lines.

[Jay Honeck]

> They found one bank
> account that had checks bearing five different signatures all with the
same
> name.

Gee, there's a surprise.

It has been my experience, both as a businessman, and as a credit union
board member, that banks will accept ANY signature, even ones with a
different name.

I'll bet you ten bucks right now I could sign "Mickey Mouse" on one of my
checks, and it would be accepted. I've seen it done.

No one looks.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Marco Leon]

Very good point CJ. I bet he knew the answer to everything he asked. Think
about it. If Michael would have said absolutely anything--ANYTHING-- that
didn't match his records he would have become suspect. Of course the agent
didn't act like he knew anything--he wanted Michael to think he was clueless
about it so that he would be more comfortable in making up a story if he was
a terrorist.

The story actually makes me feel a tad better about our anti-terror efforts.

Marco

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> The agent did not seriously believe that Michael was a terrorist and had
> reason to believe that we knew enough about him that he was not a
terrorist.
>
> He may have told Michael that he had not looked at his INS file and may
only
> have been pretending to be ignorant of its contents. He might have gotten
> more serious if Michael had answered questions contrarily to what the FBI
> already knew.
>
> The FBI routinely looks at your checking accounts when they begin an
> investigation and would have done this before even contacting Michael.
They
> would have checked to see whether endorsements on checks deposited in his
> account matched other signatures they had of his, for example. They would
> also have looked for anomalous disbursements or deposits. This technique
has
> been so successful at uncovering terrorists that the FBI has not really
> changed its methods in 40 years. Originally they started checking bank
> accounts at random just to see what would turn up. They found one bank
> account that had checks bearing five different signatures all with the
same
> name. They sent a rookie agent by the name of Jason Moulton out to stake
out
> the house and he ended up catching Patty Hearst and several other members
of
> the Symbionese Liberation Army. Not bad for a rookie. He told me that when
> he went in through the back door that Patty Hearst was sitting at a
kitchen
> table, cleaning a disassembled weapon. He was real glad that she was not
> armed.
>
>



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[Marco Leon]

Again, that's why it works to the FBI's favor. A true terrorist will know
that they don't check all the signatures and sign-away.

I used to work for a major bank and customers would consistenly be surprised
that you can write a straight line and they will take the check.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3YfQb.4665$U%5.27293@attbi_s03...
> > They found one bank
> > account that had checks bearing five different signatures all with the
> same
> > name.
>
> Gee, there's a surprise.
>
> It has been my experience, both as a businessman, and as a credit union
> board member, that banks will accept ANY signature, even ones with a
> different name.
>
> I'll bet you ten bucks right now I could sign "Mickey Mouse" on one of my
> checks, and it would be accepted. I've seen it done.
>
> No one looks.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>



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[Jay Honeck]

> WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
> sense...

No one here knows. This lame-brained idea has been proposed as an
environmental and educational tool by a wealthy businessman from Des Moines.
He's been shopping the idea around for four or five years now, with little
success or interest from local developers.

Somehow he has managed to get Sen. Grassley involved, who apparently had the
clout to ram it into the overall spending bill. (Can you say "Major
Campaign Contribution?")

What the hell our federal government is doing building rain forests in Iowa
is simply beyond me. Even the local newspaper -- as left wing, pork-barrel
project loving as you can imagine -- has publicly ridiculed the idea.

> Iowa doesn't have the yearly precipitation needed for rainforest
> climates, does it?

It's going to be built IN-DOORS, under a roof that would dome over three
football fields!

I'm dumb-founded. Even though it will probably bring more guests to my
hotel, I think it's the dumbest idea I've EVER heard.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyler Laird]

(Michael) writes:

>I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
>would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
>I never thought I would be first.

How do you know you were?
http://anon.moveon.speedera.net/2802_large.mov

>(what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
>differ from a regular agent?)

Just speak a little slower for 'em.

(I figure I'm on the lists already.)

--kyler

[Michael 182]

Maybe they'll use the dirt they move for the rain forest and build a ski
mountain. Might as well have some benefit from the snow you get out there...

Michael

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:N4gQb.132988$xy6.545923@attbi_s02...

> No one here knows. This lame-brained idea has been proposed as an
> environmental and educational tool by a wealthy businessman from Des
Moines.
> He's been shopping the idea around for four or five years now, with little
> success or interest from local developers.

[Jay Honeck]

> Gee, you still use checks over there?

Well, some places still honor them.

And cash is still accepted nearly everywhere, too, although we see less and
less of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[MRQB]

The public school system & media here in the usa is breeding nothing but
rats.





"Michael" > wrote in message
m...
> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.
>
> I came home from the airport last night to find a business card stuck
> in the door of my apartment. It had the embossed gold emblem (which
> costs quite a bit extra - I guess, unlike the company I work for, the
> federal government isn't exactly watching its pennies) of the FBI, and
> a note on the back asking me to call. I did, but of course everyone
> had gone home for the day so all I got was voice mail.
>
> In the morning, I left another message - seems nobody was in the
> office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
> special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
> differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with
> me personally. At first he didn't want to tell me what it was about,
> being vague about having to investigate a complaint, but when I
> pressed him he broke down and told me I was under suspicion as a
> terrorist! I nearly cracked up.
>
> I suppose that had I actually been an international terrorist, I would
> have immediately driven to the airport and taken the next flight out
> of the country. Or, given that the Mexican border is only a few hours
> drive South, I could have left that way. Then again, I suppose I
> would have done that the previous evening, the moment I saw the card.
> But since I'm not a terrorist, I simply made an appointment to meet
> him at work.
>
> He showed up at the receptionist's desk later that morning. He wore a
> suit and tie and carried a briefcase, so he didn't look out of place.
> I escorted him to my office, told him to take a seat, and closed the
> door. He showed me his ID, and we got down to business.
>
> The agent had NOT done his homework. He didn't know how old I was,
> where I was born - anything. Since I am a naturalized citizen, I know
> I have a file at the INS - but he didn't, and didn't even bother to
> check. After we got through the basics, the story came out.
>
> Seems that someone at my apartment complex had pegged me as
> suspicious. I was getting packages and magazines with aviation
> markings, and some of them were marked as hazardous materials. Of
> course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
> preservatives, and adhesives are all considered hazardous materials.
> Yup, you guessed it. The stuff I had shipped to do my annual this
> year (and it was a big annual) made me a terrorism suspect. A dark
> tan (we don't have much of a winter in Houston, and I tan easily) and
> a beard sealed the deal.
>
> I told him about my airplane, and the annual I was doing. I even
> showed him a picture. Like most people, he was amazed that the plane
> was a 1965 model, and noted that they seem to hold up better than
> cars. No, they don't - they require lots of care. Thus all the boxes
> of parts, primers, paints, lubricants... He examined my pilot and
> flight instructor certificates, and seemed confused. He said he
> couldn't find an expiration date on my pilot certificate. I had to
> explain to him that unlike flight instructor certificates, pilot
> certificates don't expire. He carefully noted the numbers on his pad,
> but I could see his heart wasn't in it anymore.
>
> A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
> moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
> returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
> nonsense.
>
> Michael
> The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist

[Casey Wilson]

<<<< deleted>>>>

> A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
> moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
> returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
> nonsense.
>
> Michael
> The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist
^^^^^^^^

Uh huh, right.... Has Jay got your mug shot? Just so we can all be on
the lookout for you.

Seriously, Mike, I'm glad you got the guy straightened out. You might
explore the FOIA (Freedom of Information Act). Unless you already have the
information, I think you are entitled to know who tipped off the FBI. You
might want to give him or her the same information you gave the
investigator.
As a former employee of the US government, I was the subject of
numerous background investigations related to sensitive jobs I worked on. I
had a right to, and did, request and receive a report on those
investigations, the statements made, and the list of people questioned.
The reports consisted of photocopies of the actual forms, notes and
letters pertaining to the investigations. In some cases, the material was
redacted to conceal names of certain people who were not germaine to the
investigation.

[Peter Gottlieb]

The sad thing is that if they spent that same money toward preserving REAL
rainforests it might actually have some real benefit to the world.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:N4gQb.132988$xy6.545923@attbi_s02...
> > WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
> > sense...
>
> No one here knows. This lame-brained idea has been proposed as an
> environmental and educational tool by a wealthy businessman from Des
Moines.
> He's been shopping the idea around for four or five years now, with little
> success or interest from local developers.
>

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3YfQb.4665$U%5.27293@attbi_s03...
> It has been my experience, both as a businessman, and as a credit union
> board member, that banks will accept ANY signature, even ones with a
> different name.

Signatures are not required around here, except on government checks. Your
account number is all they really want there. Everyone simply uses rubber
stamps with their acct # and maybe some boilerplate legalese.

[Jim]

Ok, rant on, Off topic:
Meanwhile, here in the Socialist Republic of Wisconsin, the DNR continues to
buy up any piece of land inhabited by any animal other than a human, all in
the name of protecting the environment and it's resources. At the same
time, deer are so over populated that Darwin is pulling new diseases out of
his hat in a futile attempt to control them, turkeys have become the number
two road hazard (behind deer of course), sand hill cranes now produce more
noise pollution than all the airports combined, more crop damage than
Wisconsin's thunderstorms and tornadoes, and have become so friendly that
pairs of them routinely return to peoples back yards each spring to hatch
their young. They have actually spent money to re-introduce rattlesnakes
into south western Wisconsin, and wolves into northern Wisconsin!! I would
much rather have them attempt to create a rain forest, they've been
wayyyyyyy too successful protecting the environment here.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[John T]

"MRQB" > wrote in message

>
> The public school system & media here in the usa is breeding nothing
> but rats.

What label would we have applied to the neighbors of Muhammed Atta had they
raised the same question on August 11, 2001?

I agree that it's a sad state when we have neighbors spying on each other,
but this sort of thing is *normal* in Smalltown, USA. The difference there
is that everybody knows everybody - and the same concept can be applied to
neighborhoods anywhere. Get to know your neighbors and you'll start to
figure out what's normal and abnormal. Had Michael's neighbor gotten to
know him, he would have known the purpose of all those mysterious
aviation-related mailings and hazardous materials shipments.

That it has become more and more rare for neighbors to actually get to know
each other, in my opinion, is even more sad than your rats.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Bob Noel]

In article <N4gQb.132988$xy6.545923@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

> I'm dumb-founded. Even though it will probably bring more guests to my
> hotel, I think it's the dumbest idea I've EVER heard.

oh heck, we can come up with dumber ideas than that...

--
Bob Noel

[David Reinhart]

So it doesn't matter that the TIPS program was killed, there are enough
people who are either scared, informers at heart, or wannabe special
agents to do all the reporting the government could wish for.

Dave Reinhart


Michael wrote:

> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.
>
> I came home from the airport last night to find a business card stuck
> in the door of my apartment. It had the embossed gold emblem (which
> costs quite a bit extra - I guess, unlike the company I work for, the
> federal government isn't exactly watching its pennies) of the FBI, and
> a note on the back asking me to call. I did, but of course everyone
> had gone home for the day so all I got was voice mail.
>
> In the morning, I left another message - seems nobody was in the
> office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
> special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
> differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with
> me personally. At first he didn't want to tell me what it was about,
> being vague about having to investigate a complaint, but when I
> pressed him he broke down and told me I was under suspicion as a
> terrorist! I nearly cracked up.
>
> I suppose that had I actually been an international terrorist, I would
> have immediately driven to the airport and taken the next flight out
> of the country. Or, given that the Mexican border is only a few hours
> drive South, I could have left that way. Then again, I suppose I
> would have done that the previous evening, the moment I saw the card.
> But since I'm not a terrorist, I simply made an appointment to meet
> him at work.
>
> He showed up at the receptionist's desk later that morning. He wore a
> suit and tie and carried a briefcase, so he didn't look out of place.
> I escorted him to my office, told him to take a seat, and closed the
> door. He showed me his ID, and we got down to business.
>
> The agent had NOT done his homework. He didn't know how old I was,
> where I was born - anything. Since I am a naturalized citizen, I know
> I have a file at the INS - but he didn't, and didn't even bother to
> check. After we got through the basics, the story came out.
>
> Seems that someone at my apartment complex had pegged me as
> suspicious. I was getting packages and magazines with aviation
> markings, and some of them were marked as hazardous materials. Of
> course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
> preservatives, and adhesives are all considered hazardous materials.
> Yup, you guessed it. The stuff I had shipped to do my annual this
> year (and it was a big annual) made me a terrorism suspect. A dark
> tan (we don't have much of a winter in Houston, and I tan easily) and
> a beard sealed the deal.
>
> I told him about my airplane, and the annual I was doing. I even
> showed him a picture. Like most people, he was amazed that the plane
> was a 1965 model, and noted that they seem to hold up better than
> cars. No, they don't - they require lots of care. Thus all the boxes
> of parts, primers, paints, lubricants... He examined my pilot and
> flight instructor certificates, and seemed confused. He said he
> couldn't find an expiration date on my pilot certificate. I had to
> explain to him that unlike flight instructor certificates, pilot
> certificates don't expire. He carefully noted the numbers on his pad,
> but I could see his heart wasn't in it anymore.
>
> A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
> moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
> returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
> nonsense.
>
> Michael
> The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist

[Don Tuite]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:59:09 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article <N4gQb.132988$xy6.545923@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:
>
>> I'm dumb-founded. Even though it will probably bring more guests to my
>> hotel, I think it's the dumbest idea I've EVER heard.
>
>oh heck, we can come up with dumber ideas than that...

You got a public zoo there?

Don

[Mackfly]

>The agent did not seriously believe that Michael was a terrorist and had
>reason to believe that we knew enough about him that he was not a terrorist.
>

and so on---Well if it were me I'd start wearing a towel on my head around the
apartment all the time. Maybe get some 12 inch PVC pipe, some Army green
paint, Cardboard nose cone and tail fins and carry that in and out of the
apartment a few times. "Lets Give Them Something To Talk About" was the title
of a song. I think it would work there as well. Mac

[Pilot Bob \(I am just a great guy!!\)]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:UBfQb.4483$U%5.26339@attbi_s03...

> Criminy -- this "special agent" acted less covertly than I did when I was
> looking for dead-beat dads in the inner city. I sure hope his actions
> aren't representative of our national security efforts.

Nah. I think the agent was smart enough to know that he is not a threat.
But, he still had to do due diligence and that seems to be exactly what he
did. Yes, from a threat elimination point of view it was a waste of time -
but such is the nature of the job - you have to turn over many stones to
find a single scorpion.

Also, I think Michael did the right thing by not behaving like a jerk. This
agent now knows something about general aviation - that is good for us, and
also might give the agent some ideas on how to look for the really bad guys.

Pilot Bob (the best damn pilot in Iowa City, no question about it)

[Pilot Bob \(I am just a great guy!!\)]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> A special agent is one that does investigative work. Most of the people
that
> you meet in US intelligence agencies are special agents. They are the guys
> (and gals) on the front lines.

So, a special agent is not really special because they are all special
agents? But, since their job is to protect us, they are indeed special!

Pilot Bob (conqueror of the air above Iowa City)

[Pilot Bob \(I am just a great guy!!\)]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3YfQb.4665$U%5.27293@attbi_s03...
> It has been my experience, both as a businessman, and as a credit union
> board member, that banks will accept ANY signature, even ones with a
> different name.

That is correct. I do it with checks and also on credit card slips. I
especially have fun at the Home Depot self checkout. I have used various
sigs, including:

H. O. MeDepotSucks
E. Atme.
Haywood Jablome (an oldie, but one of my all time favorites)
Your Service Sucks (scribbled)

.... never had a problem. The trick is to make sure you are using your OWN
credit card and your OWN check book :-)

Pilot Bob ()

[StellaStar]

CJ Campbell sez...

> sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you.

And Michael did the perfect thing -- he cordially received the investigator,
answered his questions, taught him a lot more than he knew before the visit,
and sent him on his way wiser. Engineers make the world a better place :-)

[Peter Gottlieb]

"Michael Nouak" > wrote in message
...
> Now it's time to independently verify what you said. In other words,
you'll
> be under _observation_ for some time to come. What form that observation
is
> taking on is anybody's guess but if you have a hangar they'll probably
> install a little camera to find out whether you really do work on your
> airplane. They might tap your phone lines to see who you're telling about
> your run-in with the FBI. Oh yeah, and they might read your e-mails and
> newsgroup posts.
>

Better get some tin foil and wrap that around your head so their mind
control won't get you.

[BTIZ]

when we changed treasures at our flying club after 3 years.. I called the
bank to arrange new signature cards for the checking account. They could not
even find who's "name" was on the club account, let alone find the signature
cards.

And all "I" had to do was come in to the bank with minutes from the last
meeting showing who was elected treasure.. and they would "update" the
account and create new cards... based on that security.. we just blew it
off..

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3YfQb.4665$U%5.27293@attbi_s03...
> > They found one bank
> > account that had checks bearing five different signatures all with the
> same
> > name.
>
> Gee, there's a surprise.
>
> It has been my experience, both as a businessman, and as a credit union
> board member, that banks will accept ANY signature, even ones with a
> different name.
>
> I'll bet you ten bucks right now I could sign "Mickey Mouse" on one of my
> checks, and it would be accepted. I've seen it done.
>
> No one looks.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Morgans]

"Michael Nouak" > wrote

That's the place where the fear of another
> terrorist attack makes it impossible to take your nail clippers with you
on
> an airplane! Nail clippers, fer crissakes!
> >

Nail clippers are now allowed.
--
Jim in NC

[C J Campbell]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Michael Nouak" > wrote
|
| That's the place where the fear of another
| > terrorist attack makes it impossible to take your nail clippers with you
| on
| > an airplane! Nail clippers, fer crissakes!
| > >
|
| Nail clippers are now allowed.

Not if they have a fingernail file attached to them.

[Cub Driver]

> hazardous materials. Of
>course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
>preservatives, and adhesives

I will warn my daughter. She is a sailor, and she is forever getting
HAZMAT packages from UPS.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

On 23 Jan 2004 11:47:13 -0800, (Michael) wrote:

>I guess my
>moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
>returned to my desk,

Well, keep your fingers crossed the next time you present your
driver's license at an airline counter!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a RAIN
>FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa

It should do wonders for the motel business, Jay.

I mean, who'd want to see a rain forest in Louisiana or even worse
Guatamala? Too hot and sticky.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Seriously, instead of doing a big background check and looking up all your
>papers, sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you. He
>was able to learn a lot more about you and the issues involved that way.

True. He also got to look the bad guy in the eye. I suspect that that
is an important matter in his line of work.

>They would have noticed if you had tried to flee.

One can only hope!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>It has been my experience, both as a businessman, and as a credit union
>board member, that banks will accept ANY signature, even ones with a
>different name.

When I first got Quicken and pre-printed checks, I was so excited that
I forgot to sign the first batch.

I called the IRS to tell them of this terrible problem. They just
laughed. (First time I ever heard a laugh from the IRS.) "Let's wait
until next month and see what happens."

Right! All three checks cleared my bank without any problem.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Gene Seibel]

Exactly.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.





Rob Perkins > wrote in message >...

> WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
> sense...

[Gene Seibel]

So who did you bribe to spend %50 million to bring more guests to your hotel? ;)
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.




"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<yYeQb.132407$xy6.542747@attbi_s02>...
>
> Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a RAIN
> FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa (I'm NOT kidding), it's relative peanuts I'm
> sure...
>
> Scary, though.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Michael > posted:

> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.
>
(rest of story snipped)

Congratulations! Your personal status has just been upgraded to code
orange! ;-)

I feel *sooo* much safer now. 8-^

> Michael
> The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist
>
Not so fast, mister!

Neil

[Dylan Smith]

In article <X4mQb.135255$xy6.571383@attbi_s02>,
Pilot Bob (I am just a great guy!!) wrote:
> Also, I think Michael did the right thing by not behaving like a jerk. This
> agent now knows something about general aviation - that is good for us, and
> also might give the agent some ideas on how to look for the really bad guys.

Speaking of the FBI and airports, when Houston Gulf used to be an
airport and not a housing estate, just after Sept. 11th, the line guy
there saw some suspicious people poking around the plane. Being a small
airport where everyone knows everyone else, he went and asked them who
they were. Well, they were FBI agents taking a look around.

A couple of weeks later when the press discovered that SPX was owned by
a relative of Osama Bin Laden, there was a minor press frenzy (locally
at least). One reporter went to the airport, and Wayne the lineman
explained how SPX had much better security than any of the big airports.
Everyone knows everyone else, he told them. If we see strangers poking
around or looking out of place we'll find out what they are up to. The
reporter asked Wayne whether he'd seen any suspicious characters. He
said "Yes".
The reporter, sensing a good story, wanted to naturally delve deeper so
asked who they were.
"The FBI", Wayne replied.
The reporter was speechless :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Cub Driver > said:
>> hazardous materials. Of
>>course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
>>preservatives, and adhesives
>
>I will warn my daughter. She is a sailor, and she is forever getting
>HAZMAT packages from UPS.

Tell her to start buying locally. Sure, it might cost a few more bucks,
but if it keeps the FBI off her door (and keeps a local business in
business) it might be worth it.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

[Ash Wyllie]

Michael opined

<all snipped>

Two things, a special agent can carry a gun, and I supect that the agent knew
more about you than he let on. It is a nice way to catch someone out.


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Dave S]

Did you invite him along for a ride?

Dave

Michael wrote:

> I have often wondered, with GA under increased scrutiny, how long it
> would be before one of us was investigated as a suspected terrorist.
> I never thought I would be first.
>
> I came home from the airport last night to find a business card stuck
> in the door of my apartment. It had the embossed gold emblem (which
> costs quite a bit extra - I guess, unlike the company I work for, the
> federal government isn't exactly watching its pennies) of the FBI, and
> a note on the back asking me to call. I did, but of course everyone
> had gone home for the day so all I got was voice mail.
>
> In the morning, I left another message - seems nobody was in the
> office at 8:30 AM either - and eventually got a call back. The
> special agaent (what is a special agent, anyway, and how does he
> differ from a regular agent?) informed me that he needed to speak with
> me personally. At first he didn't want to tell me what it was about,
> being vague about having to investigate a complaint, but when I
> pressed him he broke down and told me I was under suspicion as a
> terrorist! I nearly cracked up.
>
> I suppose that had I actually been an international terrorist, I would
> have immediately driven to the airport and taken the next flight out
> of the country. Or, given that the Mexican border is only a few hours
> drive South, I could have left that way. Then again, I suppose I
> would have done that the previous evening, the moment I saw the card.
> But since I'm not a terrorist, I simply made an appointment to meet
> him at work.
>
> He showed up at the receptionist's desk later that morning. He wore a
> suit and tie and carried a briefcase, so he didn't look out of place.
> I escorted him to my office, told him to take a seat, and closed the
> door. He showed me his ID, and we got down to business.
>
> The agent had NOT done his homework. He didn't know how old I was,
> where I was born - anything. Since I am a naturalized citizen, I know
> I have a file at the INS - but he didn't, and didn't even bother to
> check. After we got through the basics, the story came out.
>
> Seems that someone at my apartment complex had pegged me as
> suspicious. I was getting packages and magazines with aviation
> markings, and some of them were marked as hazardous materials. Of
> course for shipping purposes, aviation paints, primers, dopes,
> preservatives, and adhesives are all considered hazardous materials.
> Yup, you guessed it. The stuff I had shipped to do my annual this
> year (and it was a big annual) made me a terrorism suspect. A dark
> tan (we don't have much of a winter in Houston, and I tan easily) and
> a beard sealed the deal.
>
> I told him about my airplane, and the annual I was doing. I even
> showed him a picture. Like most people, he was amazed that the plane
> was a 1965 model, and noted that they seem to hold up better than
> cars. No, they don't - they require lots of care. Thus all the boxes
> of parts, primers, paints, lubricants... He examined my pilot and
> flight instructor certificates, and seemed confused. He said he
> couldn't find an expiration date on my pilot certificate. I had to
> explain to him that unlike flight instructor certificates, pilot
> certificates don't expire. He carefully noted the numbers on his pad,
> but I could see his heart wasn't in it anymore.
>
> A few minutes later, I escorted him out of the building. I guess my
> moment of glory as a suspected international terrorist was over, so I
> returned to my desk, wondering how much tax money was wasted on this
> nonsense.
>
> Michael
> The pilot formerly known as a suspected international terrorist

[Dave S]

Just to update you, Dylan..

Wayne has been transplanted to the line over at Clover.. been there a
while.

And FINALLY.. the club has a complex in it again.. a Cardinal RG..
wonderful plane.

Havent seen many FBI types poking around "Pearland Regional" now, but..
since the Bin Ladin's dont own this one.. <Grin>


Ok, rest of usenet, sorry about the "personal mail"

Dave

Dylan Smith wrote:

> In article <X4mQb.135255$xy6.571383@attbi_s02>,
> Pilot Bob (I am just a great guy!!) wrote:
>
>>Also, I think Michael did the right thing by not behaving like a jerk. This
>>agent now knows something about general aviation - that is good for us, and
>>also might give the agent some ideas on how to look for the really bad guys.
>
>
> Speaking of the FBI and airports, when Houston Gulf used to be an
> airport and not a housing estate, just after Sept. 11th, the line guy
> there saw some suspicious people poking around the plane. Being a small
> airport where everyone knows everyone else, he went and asked them who
> they were. Well, they were FBI agents taking a look around.
>
> A couple of weeks later when the press discovered that SPX was owned by
> a relative of Osama Bin Laden, there was a minor press frenzy (locally
> at least). One reporter went to the airport, and Wayne the lineman
> explained how SPX had much better security than any of the big airports.
> Everyone knows everyone else, he told them. If we see strangers poking
> around or looking out of place we'll find out what they are up to. The
> reporter asked Wayne whether he'd seen any suspicious characters. He
> said "Yes".
> The reporter, sensing a good story, wanted to naturally delve deeper so
> asked who they were.
> "The FBI", Wayne replied.
> The reporter was speechless :-)
>

[Snowbird]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<UBfQb.4483$U%5.26339@attbi_s03>...
> > Seriously, instead of doing a big background check and looking up all your
> > papers, sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you. He
> > was able to learn a lot more about you and the issues involved that way.
> > They would have noticed if you had tried to flee.

> Right. Had he been a real terrorist, Michael would have evaporated into thin
> air when the doofus FBI agent left his card on his door.

FWIW, that could have been something they were watching for. Just
because no one is answering calls at the office, doesn't mean no
one is working.

> Criminy -- this "special agent" acted less covertly than I did

But we don't know that, actually. In fact, we don't know how
much investigation he'd done before contacting Michael; if he
*had* looked in his INS file/bank account/whatever, from an
abstract POV it would seem to be a sound strategy to try to
persuade the interviewee that you have no prior info, so that
you can see how well what you're told matches up with what you
already know.

I'm not trying to suggest that's what actually happened, just
pointing out the appearance shouldn't be taken for the whole.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Michael]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote
> Very good point CJ. I bet he knew the answer to everything he asked.

Yeah, and he was having my apartment watched. And my truck was being
tailed when he called me that morning. Sure. You keep telling
yourself that.

As for me, I call bull****.

Michael

[C J Campbell]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
|
| >Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a RAIN
| >FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa
|
| It should do wonders for the motel business, Jay.
|
| I mean, who'd want to see a rain forest in Louisiana or even worse
| Guatamala? Too hot and sticky.
|

I live near Seattle. My house is within an hour's drive of one of the most
dense rain forests in the world. Not all rain forests are in the tropics.

[Wdtabor]

In article >, Cub Driver
> writes:

>
>When I first got Quicken and pre-printed checks, I was so excited that
>I forgot to sign the first batch.
>
>I called the IRS to tell them of this terrible problem. They just
>laughed. (First time I ever heard a laugh from the IRS.) "Let's wait
>until next month and see what happens."
>

I once accidentally put my mortgage payment in an IRS envelope and the much
smaller check to the IRS in my mortgage company envelope. Both checks cleared
even though clearly typed.

The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the next
day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.

Did I mention www.FairTax.org

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Michael at
wrote on 1/23/04 11:47 AM:

> Seems that someone at my apartment complex had pegged me as
> suspicious.

Probably the same asshole that flagged the flight simulator purchase at
Staples, or Office Depot, or wherever it was. As Dennis Miller once said,
"When did we all turn into Gladys Kravitz from 'Bewitched'?"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> |
> | >Well, compared to the $50 million Congress just approved to build a
RAIN
> | >FOREST here in Iowa City, Iowa
> |
> | It should do wonders for the motel business, Jay.
> |
> | I mean, who'd want to see a rain forest in Louisiana or even worse
> | Guatamala? Too hot and sticky.
> |
>
> I live near Seattle. My house is within an hour's drive of one of the most

IIUC, the one in Washington state is the ONLY true rain forest in the world
(by some strict definition of "rain forest" as opposed to "jungle", which is
something else entirely.

[Cub Driver]

>| I mean, who'd want to see a rain forest in Louisiana or even worse
>| Guatamala? Too hot and sticky.
>|
>
>I live near Seattle. My house is within an hour's drive of one of the most
>dense rain forests in the world. Not all rain forests are in the tropics.

Well, who wants to see a rain forest in Washington State? Too rainy!

The ideal would be a rain forest in Arizona. Then we could go to see
it in the winter.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Jay Honeck]

> The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
next
> day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.

Well, Don, I can top that. As some of you know, as an employer, I must pay
employee withholding (Medicare/Medicaid and Federal) tax, known as "941
Tax."

The form you use to pay this monthly tax is the identical form you use to
pay FUTA (Federal Unemployment) tax, also known as "940 Tax.".

Both types of tax are paid at your bank -- NOT to the IRS -- using the same
form.

When I was pretty new to this whole charade, in my first business (back in
the late '80s), I accidentally checked the "940" box instead of the "941"
box. No one said anything at the bank, and I, of course, didn't notice....

....until I got a very stern warning letter from the IRS, stating that they
were going to repossess everything in my universe if I didn't pay the
employee's withholding tax, pronto!

Needless to say, I was dumb-founded, as I *knew* I had paid the tax. It
was only after checking the IRS's records that we discovered a HUGE "credit"
in our unemployment tax account, and an identical "shortfall" in our
"employee withholding" account. Duh.

Now, mind you, this is the same IRS, no matter how you slice the pie. All
they had to do to fix the problem was make a note of the error, and move
"Dollar A" from "Account 1" to "Account 2." Simple, right? Any first year
accounting student could fix this, right?

NOT. It took six MONTHS to get corrected... :-(

I finally had to speak with "Mabel," an elderly black woman in Kansas City
(probably the ONLY person in the IRS who knows how to actually do anything),
who was able to fix the problem in the blink of an eye. (I suspect our
entire government is run this way -- there's probably one or two old black
women in an office somewhere, patiently fixing all the stupid bureaucratic
errors that everyone racks up...)

And don't even get me STARTED on Iowa's famously mis-named "Workforce
Development" unemployment agency... :-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[AES/newspost]

In article >,
(Wdtabor) wrote:

>
> I once accidentally put my mortgage payment in an IRS envelope and the much
> smaller check to the IRS in my mortgage company envelope. Both checks cleared
> even though clearly typed.
>

Shortly after my wife and I married I mailed in the monthly payments for
our still separate XXX brand credit card accounts in a single envelope
-- a small check carefully clipped to the small bill for one of us, a
very big check carefully clipped to the very big bill for the other of
us, both checks for the exact amounts due..

Naturally the bank applied the big check to the small bill, thus getting
a sizable loan or float from us, and the small check to the big bill,
thus enabling them to sock us with a big interest charge the following
month.

I didn't bother trying to fight with them over their screwup.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

>> Seriously, instead of doing a big background check and looking up all your
>> papers, sounds like the agent did the smart thing -- he just asked you. He
>> was able to learn a lot more about you and the issues involved that way.
>> They would have noticed if you had tried to flee.
>
> Right. Had he been a real terrorist, Michael would have evaporated into thin
> air when the doofus FBI agent left his card on his door.
>
> Criminy -- this "special agent" acted less covertly than I did when I was
> looking for dead-beat dads in the inner city. I sure hope his actions
> aren't representative of our national security efforts.

I think it's really *extremely* unlikely -- but they *could* have had
the place under surveillance, and been ready to grab him if he ran
when he got the card. I don't see how we could know they *didn't*.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
| > |
| > | It should do wonders for the motel business, Jay.
| > |
| > | I mean, who'd want to see a rain forest in Louisiana or even worse
| > | Guatamala? Too hot and sticky.
| > |
| >
| > I live near Seattle. My house is within an hour's drive of one of the
most
|
| IIUC, the one in Washington state is the ONLY true rain forest in the
world
| (by some strict definition of "rain forest" as opposed to "jungle", which
is
| something else entirely.

There are temperate rain forests in Chile and Siberia.

[VideoGuy]

"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
>
> I once accidentally put my mortgage payment in an IRS envelope and the
much
> smaller check to the IRS in my mortgage company envelope. Both checks
cleared
> even though clearly typed.
>
> The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
next
> day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.
>
> Did I mention www.FairTax.org
>
LAST year's (2002) taxes were filed. Overpayment was refunded instead of
being credited to my 2003 estimated taxes. (NO, I didn't check the box
asking for a refund. The check was issued in error.) When the refund check
arrived, I called IRS asking what should be done. I was instructed to write
VOID on the check and return it with a letter asking the amount be credited
back to my estimated account as of the date on my return. Followed
directions exactly.

IIRC, this was sometime in late August or September 2003. Within a few
weeks of sending the check back, I received an acknowledgement from IRS
stating they had received the check, and an investigation would be initiated
to substantiate my claim. (What claim? I don't know) Anyway, 'round about
Christmas time, I received a second letter advising me that they were still
'investigating" and I should be advised that I can not yet consider this
money to be credited to my estimated account. So if I file my taxes, I'll
need to pay a big bill 'cause there's thousands of $$$ floating around in
limbo. Bet they'll also gig me penalties and interest for not making timely
estimated payments.

Oh, I see now. Gotta get more money into the government one way or the
other.

Gary (expecting the men w/ handcuffs any day now) Kasten

[Dylan Smith]

In article <DcDQb.144901$na.231057@attbi_s04>, Jay Honeck wrote:
> NOT. It took six MONTHS to get corrected... :-(

I was quite impressed with our government after inadvertently overpaying
my tax. They sent me a refund within a week, and I didn't even have to
ask.

On the other hand, there's only about 50K taxpayers here as opposed to
however many hundred million you have.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Paul Folbrecht]

Yes, we should build one their too.

> The ideal would be a rain forest in Arizona. Then we could go to see
> it in the winter.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Paul Folbrecht]

I meant "there too". Double drat!!


Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> Yes, we should build one their too.
>
>> The ideal would be a rain forest in Arizona. Then we could go to see
>> it in the winter.
>>
>> all the best -- Dan Ford email:
>> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
>
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

Sounds like terrorist-talk to me.


;-)

> Yeah, and he was having my apartment watched. And my truck was being
> tailed when he called me that morning. Sure. You keep telling
> yourself that.
>
> As for me, I call bull****.
>
> Michael

[Wdtabor]

In article <DcDQb.144901$na.231057@attbi_s04>, "Jay Honeck"
> writes:

>
>> The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
>next
>> day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.
>
>Well, Don, I can top that. As some of you know, as an employer, I must pay
>employee withholding (Medicare/Medicaid and Federal) tax, known as "941
>Tax."
>

Ever wonder why we have all this silliness of 940's & 941's & W2's and
Rainforests in Iowa? It really shouldn't be a surprise, any system of taxation
and spending based on a complex deception should be expected to have goofy
results and applications.

Anyone smart enough to fill out a flight plan has already figured out that
taxes on corporations are really taxes on the consumers of whatever that
corporation sells. But the same thing is really true of payroll taxes on
individuals as well.

See http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editorial/Tabor/20040106.htm

But, this thread gives me the opportunity to invite you and our flying friends
to a rally we will be hosting here in Virginia for the FairTax (
www.fairtax.org ) on the morning of Saturday, May 1st, in hopes of changing
that.

No one would be in favor of the federal government building a rainforest in
Iowa unless they believed someone else was paying for it. But more than half
the voters in the country are under the illusion that anything that comes from
the government is "free" to them because they pay little, if any income tax.
The reality is that we all pay for these silly expenditures. On average, 22% of
the price of everything you buy, from bread to brain surgery, is really someone
else's Federal income and FICA taxes, concealed in the cost of those goods and
services. Depending on where you live, state and local taxation bring that
share of costs of goods and services to between 40% and 48%, all in an
invisible sales tax that hardly anyone is aware they are paying. The FairTax
would change all that, eliminating all payroll taxes, the IRS, the 16th
Amendment and replacing them with an honest, visible retail sales tax.

This would be cost and revenue neutral, as prices would fall and paychecks
(since no income or FICA taxes would be withheld) would rise just enough to
cover the sales tax. So, why do it? The answer is CLARITY. Everyone would know
what government really costs them. It would be printed on every invoice,
receipt and sales slip. For the first time in our lifetimes, everyone, rich and
poor alike, would know how the burden of taxation falls on all of us. Imagine
trying to sell the idea of an Iowa rainforest to a working mother when she
learns that SHE is paying for it(and has been paying for dumb stuff like that
all along), and not just some rich guy or evil corporation.

This measure could indeed change everything, but it faces an uphill battle. The
major politcal parties have no interest in it. The Democrat Party exists to
soak the rich. The Republican Party exists to protect the successful from the
Democrats. Both Democrats and Republicans are in no hurry to have the people
learn that all these years, they have really been soaking everybody, and their
battles have been nothing more than a farce, fought over an illusion. So, if
this is to happen, it will have to be demanded by the grass roots, and that
means those who lead in their community and in business. And, many of those
folks are right here.

So, I am inviting you to attend the May 1st rally here in Chesapeake, VA, which
will be the kickoff of the national campaign to move HR 25, the FairTax bill
forward in Congress. We will provide transportation from CPK and ORF to low
cost hotels near the Chesapeake Conference Center on the Friday before the
rally and back to the airports afterward. I hope many of you here will attend
and become part of this movement to fix what is wrong in this country.

If you are interested in participating, Email me at for more
information and updates as the event gets closer.

Don







--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[EDR]

In article <N4gQb.132988$xy6.545923@attbi_s02>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> > WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
> > sense...

$50 million would buy a lot of airline tickets to El Junque, Puerto
Rico, the only rain forest in the US Park Service.

[Rob Perkins]

EDR > wrote:

>$50 million would buy a lot of airline tickets to El Junque, Puerto
>Rico, the only rain forest in the US Park Service.

What? Olympic National Forest doesn't count?

Rob

[Richard Russell]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:10:05 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> WHY has Congress approved a rain forest for Iowa? It doesn't make any
>> sense...
>
>No one here knows. This lame-brained idea has been proposed as an
>environmental and educational tool by a wealthy businessman from Des Moines.
>He's been shopping the idea around for four or five years now, with little
>success or interest from local developers.
>
>Somehow he has managed to get Sen. Grassley involved, who apparently had the
>clout to ram it into the overall spending bill. (Can you say "Major
>Campaign Contribution?")
>
>What the hell our federal government is doing building rain forests in Iowa
>is simply beyond me. Even the local newspaper -- as left wing, pork-barrel
>project loving as you can imagine -- has publicly ridiculed the idea.
>
>> Iowa doesn't have the yearly precipitation needed for rainforest
>> climates, does it?
>
>It's going to be built IN-DOORS, under a roof that would dome over three
>football fields!
>
>I'm dumb-founded. Even though it will probably bring more guests to my
>hotel, I think it's the dumbest idea I've EVER heard.


It's pork, pure and simple. Pork was never required to make sense.
The only requirement is that it brings money into the state. No need
to try to rationalize it beyond that.
Rich Russell

[Dennis O'Connor]

I have long advocated that house and senate rules require that any
amendments to a bill have to be directly related to that bill, no
non-related riders, period...
The chances of the public getting their elected representatives to make such
a rule and actually earn their keep by openly voting on every piece of pork
as a separate bill in it's own right, range between zero and minus
infinity...
I suspect that whoever will write the book, The Rise, Decline, and Fall, of
The United States of America, roughly a thousand years from now, will cite
that specific issue as being directly responsible for the final economic
collapse of our country due to every dollar of the GNP becoming someones,
"entitlement"...
denny

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message > It's pork,
pure and simple. Pork was never required to make sense.
> The only requirement is that it brings money into the state. No need
> to try to rationalize it beyond that.
> Rich Russell

[Marco Leon]

"Michael" > wrote in message:
> Yeah, and he was having my apartment watched. And my truck was being
> tailed when he called me that morning. Sure. You keep telling
> yourself that.
>
> As for me, I call bull****.

You can call it anything you want. What you describe would have happened
AFTER you screwed up one of your answers.

Marco



Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
** SPEED ** RETENTION ** COMPLETION ** ANONYMITY **
----------------------------------------------------------
http://www.usenet.com

[EDR]

In article >, Rob Perkins
> wrote:

> EDR > wrote:
> >$50 million would buy a lot of airline tickets to El Junque, Puerto
> >Rico, the only rain forest in the US Park Service.
>
> What? Olympic National Forest doesn't count?

El Junque is a tropical rain forest.
What kind of rain forest is Olympic?

[EDR]

In article >, Richard
Russell > wrote:

> It's pork, pure and simple. Pork was never required to make sense.
> The only requirement is that it brings money into the state. No need
> to try to rationalize it beyond that.

Of course it's pork! It is Iowa, after all.

[Tony Cox]

"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
>
> I've had two friends in Florida discover a mysterious "black box"
installed in their
> planes. One was found during an annual, the other when the ****ty wiring
> job shorted out his radio.

No log book entry either eh?
Sounds interesting. Care to say more??


--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

[Michael]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote
> > Yeah, and he was having my apartment watched. And my truck was being
> > tailed when he called me that morning. Sure. You keep telling
> > yourself that.
> >
> > As for me, I call bull****.
>
> You can call it anything you want. What you describe would have happened
> AFTER you screwed up one of your answers.

You are completely missing the point. Had I been an actual terrorist,
the meeting at which I answered his questions would never have taken
place. When I saw the card on the door I would have bolted. Unless
my apartment was being watched, I would have made my getaway.

Even if I were a particularly bold terrorist who was dumb enough to
think the card was there for other reasons, once the FBI agent told me
I was under suspicion for terrorism I would have bolted. I would have
made my apppintment for lunchtime, just as I did then, and kept on
driving. When he showed up three hours later, I would have been long
gone.

And therein lies the point. If I were a real terrorist, I would be
long gone unless I was a total moron. What the FBI agent did could
not possibly be of any use in catching a real terrorist who is not a
total moron - all it's good for is hassling regular law-abiding
citizens. Which is all the anti-terrorist measures implemented after
9/11 ever succeed in doing.

Michael

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
>
> Never underestimate how far the fed's will go, Michael. That card in the
door could
> have been intended to spook you so they could see where you went, and who
you
> called, after finding it. Don't rule out a tracking device in your car,
either.
> I've had two friends in Florida discover a mysterious "black box"
installed in their
> planes. One was found during an annual, the other when the ****ty wiring
> job shorted out his radio.
> Remember the old saying " Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean
they're
> NOT after you".

Or..."No matter how cynical you are, it's not enough".


--
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

[John Galban]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
>
> The ideal would be a rain forest in Arizona. Then we could go to see
> it in the winter.

We already have one! It's a fairly popular tourist attraction.

See http://www.bio2.com/index.html

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[John Galban]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message >...
> "Michael" > wrote in message:
> > Yeah, and he was having my apartment watched. And my truck was being
> > tailed when he called me that morning. Sure. You keep telling
> > yourself that.
> >
> > As for me, I call bull****.
>
> You can call it anything you want. What you describe would have happened
> AFTER you screwed up one of your answers.
>

Think about it Marco. If Michael had been a real terrorist, he
would have disappeared the moment he saw an FBI agent's card on his
door. If the FBI had thought he was a real terrorist, they would not
have left the card on his door. This was just another case of a law
enforcement agency doing "cover your ass" paperwork. Much like the
police that visited the lady in MA who inquired about flight sim
software for her 10 yr. old son.

The downside to this is that this kind of paperwork often leaves a
paper trail in the bureaucracy that can be misinterpreted at a later
date (been there, done that). If I were Michael, I wouldn't plan any
trips out of the country for the next decade or so.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Neil Gould]

Hi,

Recently, Michael > posted:
>
> And therein lies the point. If I were a real terrorist, I would be
> long gone unless I was a total moron. What the FBI agent did could
> not possibly be of any use in catching a real terrorist who is not a
> total moron - all it's good for is hassling regular law-abiding
> citizens. Which is all the anti-terrorist measures implemented after
> 9/11 ever succeed in doing.
>
Excellent points. I think our biggest weakness is how we think everyone
else in the world is more stupid than we are. There is no policy or
practice that will thwart a determined effort by a half-smart terrorist,
given that even the half-assed and downright crazy ones get over
successfully. I am *so* tired of our governments' extravagant and
pointless efforts to placate the public.

Neil

[G.R. Patterson III]

EDR wrote:
>
> What kind of rain forest is Olympic?

They call that a temperate weather rain forest. There's at least one in Washington
State and another larger one in Canada.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> What the hell our federal government is doing building rain forests in Iowa
> is simply beyond me. Even the local newspaper -- as left wing, pork-barrel
> project loving as you can imagine -- has publicly ridiculed the idea.

I take it that the lunch counter there will specialize in barbeque.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Michael wrote:
>
> You are completely missing the point. Had I been an actual terrorist,
> the meeting at which I answered his questions would never have taken
> place. When I saw the card on the door I would have bolted.

In which case, the FBI would have accomplished their objective and have foiled
whatever plot the terrorist had in mind.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

John Galban wrote:
>
> Much like the
> police that visited the lady in MA who inquired about flight sim
> software for her 10 yr. old son.

Actually, the police in MA didn't "visit"; they went prowling around the property
shining flashlights in the windows. Too chicken-**** to ring the doorbell.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[John Ousterhout]

On 23 Jan 2004 11:47:13 -0800, (Michael) wrote:

> A dark tan (we don't have much of a winter in Houston, and I tan easily) and
>a beard sealed the deal.

Gee Michael, just look in a mirror. Any good 'mericun would believe
you were a terrorist. :-)

Don't bring the feds with you to Pinckneyville. Don't even tell them
about Pinckneyville. Check your plane for a secret transponder before
you fly.

See you in May.

- John Ousterhout -

[Thomas Borchert]

Michael,

the reactions to your original post are truly scary.

--
Thomas

[Ash Wyllie]

Wdtabor opined

>In article <DcDQb.144901$na.231057@attbi_s04>, "Jay Honeck"
> writes:

>>
>>> The bank sent me a past due notice for the difference, which I paid the
>>next
>>> day. It took 8 months to get the excess back from the IRS.
>>
>>Well, Don, I can top that. As some of you know, as an employer, I must pay
>>employee withholding (Medicare/Medicaid and Federal) tax, known as "941
>>Tax."
>>

>Ever wonder why we have all this silliness of 940's & 941's & W2's and
>Rainforests in Iowa? It really shouldn't be a surprise, any system of
>taxation and spending based on a complex deception should be expected to have
>goofy results and applications.

>Anyone smart enough to fill out a flight plan has already figured out that
>taxes on corporations are really taxes on the consumers of whatever that
>corporation sells. But the same thing is really true of payroll taxes on
>individuals as well.

Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are employees,
customers or owners. But it is not corporations.

>See http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editorial/Tabor/20040106.htm


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
> Wdtabor opined

> Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
employees,
> customers or owners. But it is not corporations.
>
Actually, it's quite clear:

Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
pay for goods and services.

As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
FICA.

--
"He that would make his own liberty secure,
must guard even his enemy from oppression;
for if he violates this duty, he establishes
a precedent that will reach to himself." -- Thomas Paine

[Paul Sengupta]

Oh, like one of these!

http://www.edenproject.com/

Paul

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:N4gQb.132988$xy6.545923@attbi_s02...
> It's going to be built IN-DOORS, under a roof that would dome over three
> football fields!

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> writes:

>
>> Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
>employees,
>> customers or owners. But it is not corporations.
>>
>Actually, it's quite clear:
>
>Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
>pay for goods and services.
>
>As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
>FICA.

Didn't read the link I sent, did you?

http://lpva.com/main/Archives/Editorial/Tabor/20040106.htm


In effect, as individiuals, we act as corporations selling our labor, and our
taxes are also passed on to our employers, as a cost of doing business, and
then to the customers. The burden of ALL taxation falls ultimately on the
consumer.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[C J Campbell]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| EDR wrote:
| >
| > What kind of rain forest is Olympic?
|
| They call that a temperate weather rain forest. There's at least one in
Washington
| State and another larger one in Canada.
|

Even the one in Washington is considerably larger than El Junque.

[C J Campbell]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
| In article >, Rob Perkins
| > wrote:
|
| > EDR > wrote:
| > >$50 million would buy a lot of airline tickets to El Junque, Puerto
| > >Rico, the only rain forest in the US Park Service.
| >
| > What? Olympic National Forest doesn't count?
|
| El Junque is a tropical rain forest.
| What kind of rain forest is Olympic?

Even if you want to limit it to tropical rain forests there are tropical
rain forests in Volcanoes National Park in Hawaii.

[C J Campbell]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
| In article >, Rob Perkins
| > wrote:
|
| > EDR > wrote:
| > >$50 million would buy a lot of airline tickets to El Junque, Puerto
| > >Rico, the only rain forest in the US Park Service.
| >
| > What? Olympic National Forest doesn't count?
|
| El Junque is a tropical rain forest.
| What kind of rain forest is Olympic?

There is also the National Park of American Samoa, which contains rain
forest.

IOW, don't believe all the hype you hear from the cruise lines. El Junque is
not the only rain forest in the National Park system. Nor is it the only
tropical rain forest. It may be a very nice rain forest for all that, but
claiming that El Junque is the only one is a little like Brazil claiming
that the Wright Brothers did not really fly and therefore Santos-Dumont was
first.

[Ash Wyllie]

Tom Sixkiller opined

>"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
>> Wdtabor opined

>> Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
>>employees,
>> customers or owners. But it is not corporations.
>>

I forgot suppliers.

>Actually, it's quite clear:

>Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
>pay for goods and services.

Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
difficult.

>As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
>FICA.

Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains. But
if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions can
put pressure on non-union suppliers.

If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.



-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Ash Wyllie" > writes:

>
>>Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price they
>>pay for goods and services.
>
>Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
>current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
>difficult.
>

That is a misconception about the relationship between supply and demand. We
all understand the demand side in the control of prices, but cost provides a
floor for supply. If it costs a manufacturer $12K to build a car, other than
for very grief periods, the supply of $11K cars will be zero. Making cars to
selll for less than cost, absent a government subsidy, is pointless. In fact,
making a car for less than cost PLUS a real profit less than available from
other investments is pretty much pointless. So, low demand, in the long run,
cannot drive the price down below a floor of cost plus a reasonable profit.

If something happens to raise cost for one manufacturer only, like a class
action suit or major recall, then that manufacturer suffers a competitive
disadvantage since he cannot pass that along to customers beyond the limits of
brand loyalty. But if something happens that raises the cost equally for ALL
manufacturers, like a rise in the cost of steel or a tax increase, that raises
the cost floor, and prices, regardless of demand.

All manufacturers are subject to the cost of corporate taxes, and the taxes
paid by their employees, and the taxes of their suppliers. All these taxes
contribute to the floor cost of producing goods and services below which low
demand cannot drive the price.

This is just as true for personal taxes. If the government were to impose a 20%
surtax on dentists incomes whose last names were in the first half of the
alphabet, I (Tabor) would be able to live well doing fillings at a price below
that which those dentists could get by on. But if you applied that surtax to
the incomes of all dentists, you're going to pay more for fillings, as we would
all raise prices to maintian our standard of living, otherwise why be a dentist
instead of a CFI?

Now apply that principle to everyone else who is not a dentist, but who sells
their labor to someone else, either directly or through an employer. Raise
income taxes on anyone, and all prices, for everything they contribute to
providing, go up. It is unavoidable. Income based taxes, either corporate or
personal, inevitably result in higher prices as they are passed on to the
consumer. Owners of businesses may serve as temporary buffers for tax
increases, but only briefly, or business comes to a halt. In the end, ALL
income based taxes actually impact our lives as a hidden sales tax paid by end
consumers, and those who appear to pay the income taxes are really only tax
collectors of this totally regressive, hidden sales tax.

Once the general public realizes that, class warfare over taxation becomes
pointless. Raising taxes on the baker effects everyone who eats bread. That is
the point of the FairTax (www.FairTax.org) effort, to bring that clarity to the
political process.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Sixkiller opined
>
> >"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Wdtabor opined
>
> >> Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
> >>employees,
> >> customers or owners. But it is not corporations.
> >>
>
> I forgot suppliers.

Same thing.

>
> >Actually, it's quite clear:
>
> >Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
they
> >pay for goods and services.
>
> Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
> current list price for its cars.

That's a dealer issue, GM is still making a tidy sum on each vehicle
(regardless of what BS they post in the ads).


>Getting people to pay more would be
> difficult.

Hasn't stopped them in the past. Look at how much they spend for any form of
entertainment. People said they wouldn't go to the movies when the price hit
$4, $5, $8...but each year they set reconds as the price is not $8 and even
$10-12.


>
> >As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
> >FICA.
>
> Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains.
But
> if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions
can
> put pressure on non-union suppliers.

And thus depress wages further.

>
> If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

What product would that be? IAC, customers ALWAYS pay the tax; the money a
company has doesn't materialize out of thin air.

>
> In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
> which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

It's either customers in the form of higer prices, or employees in the for
of employers portion of FICA.


> So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.

Outside employment taxes, it's always the customer. No one else can pay the
taxes because no one else provides revenue for the company.

[Ash Wyllie]

Wdtabor opined

>In article >, "Ash Wyllie" >
>writes:

>>
>>>Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
>>>they pay for goods and services.
>>
>>Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
>>current list price for its cars. Getting people to pay more would be
>>difficult.
>>

>That is a misconception about the relationship between supply and demand. We
>all understand the demand side in the control of prices, but cost provides a
>floor for supply. If it costs a manufacturer $12K to build a car, other than
>for very grief periods, the supply of $11K cars will be zero. Making cars to
>selll for less than cost, absent a government subsidy, is pointless. In fact,
>making a car for less than cost PLUS a real profit less than available from
>other investments is pretty much pointless. So, low demand, in the long run,
>cannot drive the price down below a floor of cost plus a reasonable profit.

I don't disagree with you, except for one thing: Japanese, Korean and European
manufacturers are not subject to all the taxes that US manufacturers are. So
it is not always possible to pass additional taxes along to car buyers. So
employees and owners pay the tax.

>If something happens to raise cost for one manufacturer only, like a class
>action suit or major recall, then that manufacturer suffers a competitive
>disadvantage since he cannot pass that along to customers beyond the limits
>of brand loyalty. But if something happens that raises the cost equally for
>ALL manufacturers, like a rise in the cost of steel or a tax increase, that
>raises the cost floor, and prices, regardless of demand.

>All manufacturers are subject to the cost of corporate taxes, and the taxes
>paid by their employees, and the taxes of their suppliers. All these taxes
>contribute to the floor cost of producing goods and services below which low
>demand cannot drive the price.

>This is just as true for personal taxes. If the government were to impose a
>20% surtax on dentists incomes whose last names were in the first half of the
>alphabet, I (Tabor) would be able to live well doing fillings at a price
>below that which those dentists could get by on. But if you applied that
>surtax to the incomes of all dentists, you're going to pay more for fillings,
>as we would all raise prices to maintian our standard of living, otherwise
>why be a dentist instead of a CFI?

>Now apply that principle to everyone else who is not a dentist, but who sells
>their labor to someone else, either directly or through an employer. Raise
>income taxes on anyone, and all prices, for everything they contribute to
>providing, go up. It is unavoidable. Income based taxes, either corporate or
>personal, inevitably result in higher prices as they are passed on to the
>consumer. Owners of businesses may serve as temporary buffers for tax
>increases, but only briefly, or business comes to a halt. In the end, ALL
>income based taxes actually impact our lives as a hidden sales tax paid by
>end consumers, and those who appear to pay the income taxes are really only
>tax collectors of this totally regressive, hidden sales tax.

>Once the general public realizes that, class warfare over taxation becomes
>pointless. Raising taxes on the baker effects everyone who eats bread. That
>is the point of the FairTax (www.FairTax.org) effort, to bring that clarity
>to the political process.
>
>Don

>--
>Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
>PP-ASEL
>Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG


-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Ash Wyllie]

Tom Sixkiller opined

>"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
...
>> Tom Sixkiller opined
>>
>> >"Ash Wyllie" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Wdtabor opined
>>
>> >> Actually, it is not clear who pays corporate taxes. The choices are
>> >>employees,
>> >> customers or owners. But it is not corporations.
>> >>
>>
>> I forgot suppliers.

>Same thing.

>>
>> >Actually, it's quite clear:
>>
>> >Owners through pass through taxes, and customers as a part of the price
>they
>> >pay for goods and services.
>>
>> Only if management can pass on the taxes. GM has enough trouble getting
>> current list price for its cars.

>That's a dealer issue, GM is still making a tidy sum on each vehicle
>(regardless of what BS they post in the ads).


>>Getting people to pay more would be
>> difficult.

>Hasn't stopped them in the past. Look at how much they spend for any form of
>entertainment. People said they wouldn't go to the movies when the price hit
>$4, $5, $8...but each year they set reconds as the price is not $8 and even
>$10-12.

If one movie chain is taxed at a higher rate than the others, will it be
able to pass the tax onto movie goers? If it can't it will pass the tax onto
someone else. Or it will go out of business,

>>
>> >As for employees, well, to the extent of payroll and employers portion of
>> >FICA.
>>
>> Taxes are usually paid by the owners in lower dividends or capital gains.
>But
>> if the employment market is weak it is paid by employees. Strong unions
>can
>> put pressure on non-union suppliers.

>And thus depress wages further.

Which means that that set of employees is paying the tax.

>>
>> If there is no competition for the product customers pay the tax.

>What product would that be? IAC, customers ALWAYS pay the tax; the money a
>company has doesn't materialize out of thin air.

Microsoft WIndows. Viagra is under patent these days. A book under
copyright.There are a large number of products with government enforced
monopolies.

>>
>> In all cases though, it is individuals who pay the tax, not companies. But
>> which set of individuals varies from company to company and time to time.

>It's either customers in the form of higer prices, or employees in the for
>of employers portion of FICA.


>> So it is not clear who pays corporate taxes.

>Outside employment taxes, it's always the customer. No one else can pay the
>taxes because no one else provides revenue for the company.

Only if the customer has no other option. Then it is usually the owners.



-ash
for assistance dial MYCROFTXXX

[Marco Leon]

Good points. Where would you have run-off to? You can bet that if you did do
that, it would have stepped up the investigation. This accomplishes the same
thing as the questioning itself. Would they have to chase you? Yes. But they
know what you look like, know the car you drive, know your credit card
numbers, etc. As George posted, they would have accomplished part of their
mission to foil your plan and you can be sure they would have started the
process to get your name out in their network.

You're assuming that the agent intended to arrest you on the spot if you
were a terrorist. Believe me, if that was the case, you would have had a
much more exciting tale to tell. Listen, I understand that I may be wrong
and I won't bet my life that I'm right but from conversations with good
friends in that field and others who work for the Dept of Homeland Security,
I personally would not underestimate their procedures. Especially after they
went through a major overhaul of these procedures post 9/11.

Bottom line is that this is a weeding-out process that worked. You had a
minimal "hassle" and they redirected their efforts. I say "minimal" because
I compare your discussion with other countries' versions of "discussions."

Marco

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote
> > > Yeah, and he was having my apartment watched. And my truck was being
> > > tailed when he called me that morning. Sure. You keep telling
> > > yourself that.
> > >
> > > As for me, I call bull****.
> >
> > You can call it anything you want. What you describe would have happened
> > AFTER you screwed up one of your answers.
>
> You are completely missing the point. Had I been an actual terrorist,
> the meeting at which I answered his questions would never have taken
> place. When I saw the card on the door I would have bolted. Unless
> my apartment was being watched, I would have made my getaway.
>
> Even if I were a particularly bold terrorist who was dumb enough to
> think the card was there for other reasons, once the FBI agent told me
> I was under suspicion for terrorism I would have bolted. I would have
> made my apppintment for lunchtime, just as I did then, and kept on
> driving. When he showed up three hours later, I would have been long
> gone.
>
> And therein lies the point. If I were a real terrorist, I would be
> long gone unless I was a total moron. What the FBI agent did could
> not possibly be of any use in catching a real terrorist who is not a
> total moron - all it's good for is hassling regular law-abiding
> citizens. Which is all the anti-terrorist measures implemented after
> 9/11 ever succeed in doing.
>
> Michael



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[Michael]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote
> Good points. Where would you have run-off to?

Anywhere. After all, I was under an assumed name, right?

> You can bet that if you did do
> that, it would have stepped up the investigation.

I'm sure it would have. But I would be gone (maybe back to my home
country) while the others left behind carried on the plot.

> This accomplishes the same
> thing as the questioning itself.

Nope. Unless they catch me, it loses their only lead. I KNOW it's
their only lead, because there is no network, no cell that I am a
member of. But THEY don't know that. As far as they know, I'm their
only lead to a local cell.

> Would they have to chase you? Yes. But they
> know what you look like

Yeah - a bald dark skinned man with a beard and glasses. How long
does it take to shave and put on a toupee, and buy contacts?

> know the car you drive

Which would be traded in a heartbeat.

> know your credit card numbers, etc.

Again - if I'm a terrorist, I've stolen an identity. If I'm who I
claim to be, then it's obvious I'm not a terrorist.

> Listen, I understand that I may be wrong
> and I won't bet my life that I'm right

You are betting your life that you're right. These are the people who
are supposedly defending you from terror.

> but from conversations with good
> friends in that field and others who work for the Dept of Homeland Security,
> I personally would not underestimate their procedures.

I think that would be difficult to do.

> Especially after they
> went through a major overhaul of these procedures post 9/11.

The changes after 9/11 are all window dressing. Nothing substantive
happened. That's the point. We're no safer now than we were then,
but we're a lot less free.

> Bottom line is that this is a weeding-out process that worked.

No, the bottom line is that this is a process that could ONLY work if
I were not a terrorist. If I were, the process was guaranteed to
fail. It's not a process designed to actually improve security, but
to give the illusion of it.

> You had a
> minimal "hassle" and they redirected their efforts. I say "minimal" because
> I compare your discussion with other countries' versions of "discussions."

Do you actually know anything about those other countries? Have you
ever lived in one? Do you remember when everyone was looking for
communists rather than terrorists? I lived in the Soviet Union then.
It really wasn't a lot different from what the US has become. It's
not that the KGB was all-powerful and massive. It wasn't really all
that different from our own FBI and CIA. But what the KGB did have
was an army of unpaid volunteer snitches - something free countries
don't have. We have them now.

Michael

[Marco Leon]

Well, then we have fundamentally different views. Obviously from different
points of reference too. Yes, I have lived in one of "those" countries and I
can assure you that the questioning you went through was a minor hassle.
This topic has gone a little too far off-topic for my taste.

Over.

Marco

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote
> > Good points. Where would you have run-off to?
>
> Anywhere. After all, I was under an assumed name, right?
>
> > You can bet that if you did do
> > that, it would have stepped up the investigation.
>
> I'm sure it would have. But I would be gone (maybe back to my home
> country) while the others left behind carried on the plot.
>
> > This accomplishes the same
> > thing as the questioning itself.
>
> Nope. Unless they catch me, it loses their only lead. I KNOW it's
> their only lead, because there is no network, no cell that I am a
> member of. But THEY don't know that. As far as they know, I'm their
> only lead to a local cell.
>
> > Would they have to chase you? Yes. But they
> > know what you look like
>
> Yeah - a bald dark skinned man with a beard and glasses. How long
> does it take to shave and put on a toupee, and buy contacts?
>
> > know the car you drive
>
> Which would be traded in a heartbeat.
>
> > know your credit card numbers, etc.
>
> Again - if I'm a terrorist, I've stolen an identity. If I'm who I
> claim to be, then it's obvious I'm not a terrorist.
>
> > Listen, I understand that I may be wrong
> > and I won't bet my life that I'm right
>
> You are betting your life that you're right. These are the people who
> are supposedly defending you from terror.
>
> > but from conversations with good
> > friends in that field and others who work for the Dept of Homeland
Security,
> > I personally would not underestimate their procedures.
>
> I think that would be difficult to do.
>
> > Especially after they
> > went through a major overhaul of these procedures post 9/11.
>
> The changes after 9/11 are all window dressing. Nothing substantive
> happened. That's the point. We're no safer now than we were then,
> but we're a lot less free.
>
> > Bottom line is that this is a weeding-out process that worked.
>
> No, the bottom line is that this is a process that could ONLY work if
> I were not a terrorist. If I were, the process was guaranteed to
> fail. It's not a process designed to actually improve security, but
> to give the illusion of it.
>
> > You had a
> > minimal "hassle" and they redirected their efforts. I say "minimal"
because
> > I compare your discussion with other countries' versions of
"discussions."
>
> Do you actually know anything about those other countries? Have you
> ever lived in one? Do you remember when everyone was looking for
> communists rather than terrorists? I lived in the Soviet Union then.
> It really wasn't a lot different from what the US has become. It's
> not that the KGB was all-powerful and massive. It wasn't really all
> that different from our own FBI and CIA. But what the KGB did have
> was an army of unpaid volunteer snitches - something free countries
> don't have. We have them now.
>
> Michael



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[Kyler Laird]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

>I'm dumb-founded. Even though it will probably bring more guests to my
>hotel, I think it's the dumbest idea I've EVER heard.

I like Reason's take on it.
http://www.reason.com/hod/rr020304.shtml

The indoor rain forest gets a whopping $50 million. This faux
paradise for parrots will be built in Coralville, Iowa, a town
with a population of 17,246 according to the latest Census
Bureau survey, or about 5,000 households. The $50 million, in
other words, averages out to $10,000 per household, not bad for
a place that doesn't even have an airport.

The implication, of course, is that towns should invest in airports before
crazy stuff like this. (IOW is under 4nm away though, so I'm not sure why
it's significant.)

--kyler