Certificate- Wallet or Bag?

[[email protected]]

Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic
license came in today's mail! I get to write my name right over ole
Wilber n' Orville! (Made my pilgrimage to Kiity Hawk in November)

Question

Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to just
let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to keep
it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the bag
in the car.

I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
Where do you keep yours?


Robert Haigh
LWM 'n BED

[Chuck]

> wrote in message
om...
> Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
> dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic
> license came in today's mail! I get to write my name right over ole
> Wilber n' Orville! (Made my pilgrimage to Kiity Hawk in November)
>
> Question
>
> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to just
> let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
> over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to keep
> it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the bag
> in the car.
>
> I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
> have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
> Where do you keep yours?
>


I'm not a pilot, but I keep my A&P in my wallet.

One thing they drilled into us during FAR's at A&P school is that any law
enforcement officer can ask to see the license.

[Jeff Franks]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Robert, but your about to get flamed.

This group historically looks down on anyone who likes their license/cert to
be something worth showing off. We're supposed to spend $5k on our
hobby/profession, then tuck it in our wallet and never let it out. As
pilots, we're above such petty things...............yea....right.

As for your question, I think its a bit of overthinking. My understanding
of the Fed's rules is that only a representative of the administrator can
require you to show it....but that was pre-9/11. Depending on your state
laws, yes, a cop can ask to see your certificate, but why would he? If you
were at the airport or on the ramp, then I might understand their need...er
desire to prove who you are. But just driving down the road, I can't
imagine a policeman so hardup as to ask for your license based on your AOPA
sticker. Heck, I was a AOPA member for 15 years before I was a AO or a P :)
Just tell them your a wannabe.

jeff



Truth be known, most local police probably don't know that they have the
"right" to ask for it.
> wrote in message
om...
> Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
> dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic
> license came in today's mail! I get to write my name right over ole
> Wilber n' Orville! (Made my pilgrimage to Kiity Hawk in November)
>
> Question
>
> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to just
> let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
> over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to keep
> it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the bag
> in the car.
>
> I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
> have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
> Where do you keep yours?
>
>
> Robert Haigh
> LWM 'n BED


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Robert Moore]

wrote

> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> license (AOPA decal in rear window).

But you are required to have the certificate (it is not a "license")
in your possesion only when exercising the previleges of the certificate.
If you are not acting as a required crewmember under the FAR, it can
just as well be at home in the drawer.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[Jeff Franks]

Thanks Mrs. Ellis. I hope to do better in the fourth grade.


"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> "Jeff Franks" > wrote
>
> > Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Robert,
> > but your about to get flamed.
>
> No, but you are. You're = you are, not your.
>
> Bob Moore


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[Jeff Franks]

The only time I've ever been around anyone rampchecked, the FAA dude (did I
spell that right?) asked to see his "license". we all know the official
term is a certificate, its pointed out anytime anyone calls it anything but.
BTW, does anyone call you Bob?


"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 7...
> wrote
>
> > Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> > stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> > license (AOPA decal in rear window).
>
> But you are required to have the certificate (it is not a "license")
> in your possesion only when exercising the previleges of the certificate.
> If you are not acting as a required crewmember under the FAR, it can
> just as well be at home in the drawer.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Robert Moore]

"Jeff Franks" > wrote

> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Robert,
> but your about to get flamed.

No, but you are. You're = you are, not your.

Bob Moore

[TaxSrv]

> wrote in message
om...
>... I have always read that if
> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to
just
> let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand"
it
> over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to
keep
> it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the
bag
> in the car.

Who dreamt that one up? As clearly worded in state laws, local law
enforcement could only request to see the cert either before clearly
about to operate an aircraft or after observed having done so, or
stopped while taxiing. Or on the runway during takeoff like Walker
Texas Ranger does. Keep it in your wallet, though. If you leave your
flight bag in the FBO and land at a place where FAA is doing ramp
checks, you're going to have a Homer Simpson moment.

Fred F.

[C J Campbell]

If a law enforcement officer asks to see your certificate and you don't
happen to have it with you, what is he going to do about it? Report to the
FAA that you were driving too fast without a pilot's license?

Keep your certificate wherever you can be sure it will be with you when you
are going flying, and stop worrying so much.

[Jürgen Exner]

Chuck wrote:
> > wrote in message
> om...
>> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
>> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
>> license (AOPA decal in rear window).

You need a pilot certificate when driving a car? Which country are you from?
If you are talking about the USA then would you mind posting a pointer to
the relevant FAR paragraph?

Oh, and what about when you are selling the car to a non-pilot? Are you/is
he legally required to remove the AOPA sticker?

> I'm not a pilot, but I keep my A&P in my wallet.
>
> One thing they drilled into us during FAR's at A&P school is that any
> law enforcement officer can ask to see the license.

That's right. _When_your_are_executing_the_privileges_of_this_li cense then
any law enforcement officer may request to see your license.
But since when do you need a A&P or a pilot certificate for driving a car?
Well, maybe for the car in "The Man with the Golden Gun", but otherwise?

jue

[Chuck]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
...
> Chuck wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > om...
> >> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> >> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> >> license (AOPA decal in rear window).
>
> You need a pilot certificate when driving a car? Which country are you
from?
> If you are talking about the USA then would you mind posting a pointer to
> the relevant FAR paragraph?
>
> Oh, and what about when you are selling the car to a non-pilot? Are you/is
> he legally required to remove the AOPA sticker?
>
> > I'm not a pilot, but I keep my A&P in my wallet.
> >
> > One thing they drilled into us during FAR's at A&P school is that any
> > law enforcement officer can ask to see the license.
>
> That's right. _When_your_are_executing_the_privileges_of_this_li cense then
> any law enforcement officer may request to see your license.
> But since when do you need a A&P or a pilot certificate for driving a car?
> Well, maybe for the car in "The Man with the Golden Gun", but otherwise?
>
> jue
>
>


First off, learn to properly snip.

2nd, I said that we were told in school that ANY law enforcement officer can
ask to see it. I never said when, I said ANY.
I can't speak for the pilot's certificate because I don't have one, but as
far as the mechanics certificate goes the FAR §65.105 states "Each person
who holds a repairman certificate shall keep it within the immediate area
where he normally exercises the privileges of the certificate and shall
present it for inspection upon the request of the Administrator or an
authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board, or of
any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer".

I didn't say you had to have an A&P or pilot certificate to drive a car, did
I? Get real!

[BTIZ]

> If a law enforcement officer asks to see your certificate and you don't
> happen to have it with you, what is he going to do about it? Report to the
> FAA that you were driving too fast without a pilot's license?
>
> Keep your certificate wherever you can be sure it will be with you when
you
> are going flying, and stop worrying so much.
>

would that be "flying low"? or "Low flying"

BT

[David Kazdan]

It's not quite analagous, but my father was asked by a policeman for his
amateur radio license. Dad, my wife, and I are all licensed and have state of
Ohio issued callplate license plates; it's a specific automobile license plate
category in Ohio and has "amateur radio" embossed below the license plate
number, which is the amateur radio station callsign. I'll guess that it was
intended to permit police to know which cars are likely to have emergency
communication equipment, but it's mostly taken as a cheap vanity plate by the
ham community. Apparently the police request is legal and must be honored; I
don't know if there's actually a penalty for not having the license, and I've
never seen an Ohio law saying that the certificate has to be on the driver's
person. Federal law (FCC regs) do say that the license has to be immediately
available when the licensee is exercising the priveleges of his radio
transmitting license. Dad was incensed, I looked into it a little bit, found
that it happens occasionally, reportedly more in Michigan than in Ohio.

On the other hand, the license plate is a governmental identification. I can't
imagine police having any right to do anything on the basis of an American Radio
Relay League sticker on your car.


David (PP-instr.)
Amateur Radio Station AD8Y

Jeff Franks wrote:
>
> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Robert, but your about to get flamed.
>
> This group historically looks down on anyone who likes their license/cert to
> be something worth showing off. We're supposed to spend $5k on our
> hobby/profession, then tuck it in our wallet and never let it out. As
> pilots, we're above such petty things...............yea....right.
>
> As for your question, I think its a bit of overthinking. My understanding
> of the Fed's rules is that only a representative of the administrator can
> require you to show it....but that was pre-9/11. Depending on your state
> laws, yes, a cop can ask to see your certificate, but why would he? If you
> were at the airport or on the ramp, then I might understand their need...er
> desire to prove who you are. But just driving down the road, I can't
> imagine a policeman so hardup as to ask for your license based on your AOPA
> sticker. Heck, I was a AOPA member for 15 years before I was a AO or a P :)
> Just tell them your a wannabe.
>
> jeff
>
> Truth be known, most local police probably don't know that they have the
> "right" to ask for it.
> > wrote in message
> om...
> > Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
> > dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic
> > license came in today's mail! I get to write my name right over ole
> > Wilber n' Orville! (Made my pilgrimage to Kiity Hawk in November)
> >
> > Question
> >
> > Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> > stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> > license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to just
> > let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
> > over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to keep
> > it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the bag
> > in the car.
> >
> > I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
> > have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
> > Where do you keep yours?
> >
> >
> > Robert Haigh
> > LWM 'n BED
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.564 / Virus Database: 356 - Release Date: 1/19/04

[John Gaquin]

> wrote in message
>
> Where do you keep your certificate?

It is 2004, there's a war going on, there's a presidential election getting
started, and there's always the endless necessity of taking care of daily
business.

Please tell me you have something more important to worry about than which
pocket you keep your certificate in!

Good God!

[Larry Fransson]

On 2004-01-25 06:29:47 -0800, said:

> Where do you keep yours?

Now that my CFI certificate is three times as thick as it used to be, I
keep it on my desk. Can't say I'm looking forward to the day that I have
to replace my pilot certificate. The "plain old" paper certificates are a
lot easier to carry around in one's wallet because they don't take a lot of
room.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[G.R. Patterson III]

Chuck wrote:
>
> One thing they drilled into us during FAR's at A&P school is that any law
> enforcement officer can ask to see the license.

Well, they can ask, but there's no reg that says that I have to show it to them
if I don't have it with me, and there's no reg that says I have to have it with
me if I'm not flying.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Jürgen Exner]

Chuck wrote:
> First off, learn to properly snip.

Says someone who does a full-quote. Oh, well, never mind....

> 2nd, I said that we were told in school that ANY law enforcement
> officer can ask to see it. I never said when, I said ANY.

Well, yes, that's true, fair enough.
However the discussion was about if you are required to present your license
(pilot license in this case, but it really doesn't matter much if it's an
A&P) to a police officer when driving a car. Therefore it I think it is a
valid assumption that you were answering this particular question when you
replied that you need to present it to any police officer.

> I didn't say you had to have an A&P or pilot certificate to drive a
> car, did I? Get real!

From the original article (literal quote):
>>> I have always read that if stopped by the police on the
>>> road they have the right to "see" your license

To this you replied (literal quote):
>> One thing they drilled into us during FAR's at A&P school is that
>> any law enforcement officer can ask to see the license.

Now, please draw your own conclusions how a reader will interpret your reply
to this question.

jue

[John Harper]

It had never occurred to me that a random pokice officer could
ask me for my pilot's licence because of the AOPA sticker on my car,
so that's not why I keep it in my wallet (although as a foreigner
I do worry more and more about being whisked off to jail for
no good reason and kept there indefinitely - civil liberties don't
seem to be a high priority in the land of the free these days).

I keep my certificate, and my medical, in my wallet so I can go
flying on impulse without having my flight bag with me. I also
keep a couple of headsets in the plane, and carry the plane key
around in my pocket along with all the others. I've only ever actually
done that a couple of times, but it's nice to know I can.

John

> wrote in message
om...
> Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
> dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic
> license came in today's mail! I get to write my name right over ole
> Wilber n' Orville! (Made my pilgrimage to Kiity Hawk in November)
>
> Question
>
> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to just
> let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
> over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to keep
> it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the bag
> in the car.
>
> I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
> have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
> Where do you keep yours?
>
>
> Robert Haigh
> LWM 'n BED

[EDR]

In article >, TaxSrv
> wrote:

> If you leave your
> flight bag in the FBO and land at a place where FAA is doing ramp
> checks, you're going to have a Homer Simpson moment.

You are not required to submit to a ramp check.

[Chuck]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote in message
...

> Chuck wrote:
> > First off, learn to properly snip.
>
> Says someone who does a full-quote. Oh, well, never mind....
>

Yes, I quoted the full text of the message so you might see what I was
talking about, but apparntley not. You made it look like I wrote the whole
message. I didn't. Also, <snip> sure makes it alot easier to read replies
that have been snipped.


> > 2nd, I said that we were told in school that ANY law enforcement
> > officer can ask to see it. I never said when, I said ANY.
>
> Well, yes, that's true, fair enough.
> However the discussion was about if you are required to present your
license
> (pilot license in this case, but it really doesn't matter much if it's an
> A&P) to a police officer when driving a car. Therefore it I think it is a
> valid assumption that you were answering this particular question when you
> replied that you need to present it to any police officer.
>

You are correct. I did misread the post and I apoligize for my mistake.

I wasn't thinking when the OP said that if you were driving down the road...

<snip>

[BTIZ]

> It had never occurred to me that a random pokice officer could
> ask me for my pilot's licence because of the AOPA sticker on my car,

Some how I don't believe that he could.. unless he is investigating why you
landed on his road. and not the runway... but then that would not be
"random" would it.

BT

[Rick Durden]

EDR,


> You are not required to submit to a ramp check.

In fact, you are. The Federal Aviation Act, which created the FAA,
gives the FAA authority to monitor aviation activity. If you are
asked by a person who identifies him or herself as an FAA inspector,
you are obligated to show your pilot certificate if you have it with
you.

I'm curious as to the basis for your statement above.

All the best,
Rick

[Rick Durden]

Robert,

We've also been cautioned to just
> let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
> over.

Someone's been feeding you old wive's tales. Don't believe the crap
about not flying oversquare and that downwind turns increase the
airplane's stall speed either.

There's nothing wrong with handing your certificate to a law
enforcement officer or FAA inspector, just as you would your driver's
license during a traffic stop. Years ago someone started the urban
myth that if you handed your certificate to an FAA inspector that he
or she could consider it a surrender and keep it and you'd play heck
getting it back. It's not so. The FARs specifically define what you
have to do to surrender your certificate...to start with, you must do
so in writing for the surrender to be effective.

If an FAA inspector tried to hang on to your certificate during a ramp
check the amount of fun you would be able to have at the guy's expense
is impressive. If he were lucky, his next job assignment would be in
Nome. FAA attorneys are aware of this old wive's tale. There have
been some rather strong comments by FAA attorneys about what would
happen to an FAA employee who tried to keep a pilot's certificate
during a ramp check.

All the best,
Rick

[Andrew Sarangan]

I like the paper certificates because I can staple them all together
(pilot, CFI and medical). If all three of them turn out to be plastic,
it will be a lot more bulkier.



Larry Fransson > wrote in message news:<2004012509125016807%newsgroups@larryandjennynet>...
> On 2004-01-25 06:29:47 -0800, said:
>
> > Where do you keep yours?
>
> Now that my CFI certificate is three times as thick as it used to be, I
> keep it on my desk. Can't say I'm looking forward to the day that I have
> to replace my pilot certificate. The "plain old" paper certificates are a
> lot easier to carry around in one's wallet because they don't take a lot of
> room.

[EDR]

In article >, Rick Durden
> wrote:

> EDR,
>
>
> > You are not required to submit to a ramp check.
>
> In fact, you are. The Federal Aviation Act, which created the FAA,
> gives the FAA authority to monitor aviation activity. If you are
> asked by a person who identifies him or herself as an FAA inspector,
> you are obligated to show your pilot certificate if you have it with
> you.
>
> I'm curious as to the basis for your statement above.

Statement made by a FSDO Inspector.

[Bob Fry]

I glue a small envelope to the back cover of my log book...certificate,
radio license and medical go in there.

[Bob Fry]

(Rick Durden) writes:

> There's nothing wrong with handing your certificate to a law
> enforcement officer or FAA inspector, just as you would your driver's
> license during a traffic stop.

OK, but what about your medical certificate? Should you physically
release that for "inspection"? What about the infamous Bob Hoover
case, where the rumor says because he naively released physical
possesion of his med certficate, which the inspectors then kept, he
did indeed lose his medical.

[C J Campbell]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
|
| > wrote in message
| >
| > Where do you keep your certificate?
|
| It is 2004, there's a war going on, there's a presidential election
getting
| started, and there's always the endless necessity of taking care of daily
| business.
|
| Please tell me you have something more important to worry about than which
| pocket you keep your certificate in!
|
| Good God!
|
|

Indeed. Another one starting out by saying "It is 2004."

I propose that since it is 2004, we stop saying "It is 2004." Granted,
people might have to think up something intelligent to say instead, or they
might have to shut up, but either one would be fine by me.

[C J Campbell]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
| (Rick Durden) writes:
|
| > There's nothing wrong with handing your certificate to a law
| > enforcement officer or FAA inspector, just as you would your driver's
| > license during a traffic stop.
|
| OK, but what about your medical certificate? Should you physically
| release that for "inspection"? What about the infamous Bob Hoover
| case, where the rumor says because he naively released physical
| possesion of his med certficate, which the inspectors then kept, he
| did indeed lose his medical.

Bob Hoover's medical was revoked by letter.

[Bob Martin]

> Question
>
> Where do you keep your certificate?

I taped a standard mailing envelope (minus covering flap) inside the
cover of my logbook. I keep my medical, certificate, and CFI's
business card in there.

Said logbook is usually kept in a drawer at home, since it's been over
a year since I've flown as PIC. Since then, I've usually gone up with
my dad, who has an ATP.

However, when I was acting as PIC (and when I will be again this
summer, after I get my tailwheel signoff) the logbook went into my
flightbag with the sectional and E6B.

[John Gaquin]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in > |
> |
>
> Indeed. Another one starting out by saying "It is 2004."

Just precautionary. I figured if a guy can't decide how to carry a pilot
certificate, he might not know that the year had changed, either.

[Chuck]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Rick Durden
> > wrote:
>
> > EDR,
> >
> >
> > > You are not required to submit to a ramp check.
> >
> > In fact, you are. The Federal Aviation Act, which created the FAA,
> > gives the FAA authority to monitor aviation activity. If you are
> > asked by a person who identifies him or herself as an FAA inspector,
> > you are obligated to show your pilot certificate if you have it with
> > you.
> >
> > I'm curious as to the basis for your statement above.
>
> Statement made by a FSDO Inspector.


It's funny how you can ask 5 different FSDO inspector the same question and
get 5 different answers...

[TaxSrv]

> wrote in message
om...
> Yes you are. Part 61.3.l:
>
> Inspection of Certificate. Each person who holds an
> airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization,
> or license required by this part must present it for
> inspection upon request from:
> (1) The Administrator;
> (2) An authorized represenative of the NTSB; or
> (3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement
> officer.
>
> In short, Barney Fife could "request" to see your cert, and probably
> seize it (I think that's another section of Part 61; definitely if
> you're intoxicated, as recent airline events have shown.).

I don't know about Barney actually seizing the certificate, but else
true in all states. And "request" needn't be in quotes, since failure
to present the cert can lead to arrest. Unlike most traffic
violations, state aviation laws involve at least misdemeanors. Little
known is that many state laws say also that the airport operator can
request to see the cert. This empowers the airport operator, w/o the
need to call the police, to challenge the right of someone about to
operate an aircraft, such as a child or someone suspect for other
reasons (more relevant post 9/11).

Some states even say "other authorized person," which would allow the
operator if a gov't entity to delegate authority to an FBO. It
leaves the problem as to whether the airport manager or FBO could
physically detain the individual -- a citizen's arrest, since it
typically involves only a misdemeanor perceived about to occur and
consequent legal liability, even if the detained person isn't a
certificated pilot. Curiously, one state thus automatically
"deputizes" the airport operator in these matters, lending the right
of physical detention until police arrive.

Fred F.

[Sylvain]

wrote in message >...
> Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
> dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic

unlike some other posters, I think the new format is really cool! it
looks good and I no longer need to laminate it myself!

I keep my certificate and medical and driving license as the photo
ID one now needs to carry when exercising the privileges of our
airmen certificates (14 CFR 61.3(a)(2)(i) says a driving license is ok
for that purpose) in one of these thingies you hang around your neck
to keep your daypass when downhill skiing; for one thing I am less likely
to loose it :-), and it is quite handy if someone, e.g., FAA inspector
or law enforcement on the airport, ever asks to see it (being somewhat
conspicuous on the ramp, i.e., visible physical handicap and a thick
foreign accent, I am especially careful about such details)

--Sylvain

[Cub Driver]

The New Hampshire rule with respect to a driver's license is that you
have 24 hours to produce it. So when I go to the gym, I carry my
expired license with a hole punched in it, from which hang my keys and
the gym pass. I don't want to leave my wallet in the locker room.

Strictly speaking, I don't even need the expired license, but I would
rather not risk an overnight in the Newmarket holding cell if the lads
thought I looked like a terrorist.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>I keep my certificate, and my medical, in my wallet so I can go
>flying on impulse without having my flight bag with me. I also
>keep a couple of headsets in the plane, and carry the plane key
>around in my pocket along with all the others.

If you've got all that stuff, why not just carry the flight bag?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Dennis O'Connor]

Maybe so, but anyone who is not a certificated LEO, and who cannot identify
himself as an officer of the law and show a badge, and who attempts to
physically 'arrest' another is going to get:
1. Hurt - big time
2. Sued
3. Sued
4. Sued
5. and sued some more...
Your airport manager simply cannot physically touch another in this society
without permission...

denny

[Cub Driver]

As a recreational pilot who regularly flies over 50 miles from home
(requiring an endorsement), I have to carry my log book with me when I
fly. So the "license" goes into the log book, along with the medical
certificate and the New Hampshire pilot's certificate.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Newps]

wrote:

> Yes you are. Part 61.3.l:
>
> Inspection of Certificate. Each person who holds an
> airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization,
> or license required by this part must present it for
> inspection upon request from:
> (1) The Administrator;
> (2) An authorized represenative of the NTSB; or
> (3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement
> officer.
>
> In short, Barney Fife could "request" to see your cert, and probably
> seize it (I think that's another section of Part 61; definitely if
> you're intoxicated, as recent airline events have shown.).

And even if it did get seized just go fly anyway. This has already
happened and the FAA will Fedex you your stuff back with profound apologies.

[Gene Seibel]

Certificate and medical in wallet.
Logbook in flight bag.
Has worked fine for 28 years.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



wrote in message >...
> Yea! With my change of address I am finally relieved of the old
> dot-matrix paper certificate. The fancy new holographic plastic
> license came in today's mail! I get to write my name right over ole
> Wilber n' Orville! (Made my pilgrimage to Kiity Hawk in November)
>
> Question
>
> Where do you keep your certificate? I have always read that if
> stopped by the police on the road they have the right to "see" your
> license (AOPA decal in rear window). We've also been cautioned to just
> let the officer "see" the certificate and never to actually "hand" it
> over. Since we must have it with us when we fly, is it better to keep
> it in the flight bag as I've always done? I don't always have the bag
> in the car.
>
> I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
> have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
> Where do you keep yours?
>
>
> Robert Haigh
> LWM 'n BED

[Malcolm Teas]

wrote in message >...
> I guess I really already know the answer.... just excited to finally
> have something to be proud of after all these years. But I AM curious.
> Where do you keep yours?

In my pants, along with all the other important stuff. It's in my
wallet, as is my medical and my Driver's License. What did you think
I was talking about? :)

That way, I'm always ready to fly. I can borrow a headset if I have
to...

-Malcolm Teas

[William W. Plummer]

61.3(a) says, "....pilot certificate...in that person's physical possession
or readily accessible in the aircraft when exercising the privileges of that
certificate or authorization." So you can keep it in your flight bag if you
bring the flight bag with you on every flight. I keep my flight and medical
certificates in my wallet. And, I'll show the originals to anyone that
wants to see them and if necessary will provide a photocopy of both.

> wrote in message
om...
> ......
> But I AM curious.
> Where do you keep yours?

[Marcus Walls]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:48:52 GMT, David Kazdan > wrote:

> It's not quite analagous, but my father was asked by a policeman for his
>amateur radio license. Dad, my wife, and I are all licensed and have state of
>Ohio issued callplate license plates; it's a specific automobile license plate
>category in Ohio and has "amateur radio" embossed below the license plate
>number, which is the amateur radio station callsign. I'll guess that it was
>intended to permit police to know which cars are likely to have emergency
>communication equipment, but it's mostly taken as a cheap vanity plate by the
>ham community. Apparently the police request is legal and must be honored; I
>don't know if there's actually a penalty for not having the license, and I've
>never seen an Ohio law saying that the certificate has to be on the driver's
>person. Federal law (FCC regs) do say that the license has to be immediately
>available when the licensee is exercising the priveleges of his radio
>transmitting license. Dad was incensed, I looked into it a little bit, found
>that it happens occasionally, reportedly more in Michigan than in Ohio.
>

Actually, I'm pretty sure that FCC regs DON'T require you to have
license available when exercising the privledges.

I remember being told that I could exercise my license after seeing my
newly issued callsign in the FCC's online database.

[John Galban]

"Jeff Franks" > wrote in message >...
<snip>
> As for your question, I think its a bit of overthinking. My understanding
> of the Fed's rules is that only a representative of the administrator can
> require you to show it....but that was pre-9/11.

Your understanding would be incorrect. FAA regs require you to show
your certificate to an FAA type and any law enforcement officer who
asks to see it.

That, of course, assumes that you have it with you. There is no FAA
reg requiring you to carry your cert. when you are not excercising the
privilege of said cert.

This is not post 9/11 stuff. That reg has been around for ever.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[John Galban]

EDR > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Rick Durden
> > wrote:
>
> > EDR,
> >
> >
> > > You are not required to submit to a ramp check.
> >
> > In fact, you are. The Federal Aviation Act, which created the FAA,
> > gives the FAA authority to monitor aviation activity. If you are
> > asked by a person who identifies him or herself as an FAA inspector,
> > you are obligated to show your pilot certificate if you have it with
> > you.
> >
> > I'm curious as to the basis for your statement above.
>
> Statement made by a FSDO Inspector.

HaaaaHaaaHaaa! That's a good one! You might as well ask the guy
who works the counter at the doughnut shop.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
om...
> Yes you are. Part 61.3.l:
>
> Inspection of Certificate. Each person who holds an
> airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization,
> or license required by this part must present it for
> inspection upon request from:
> (1) The Administrator;
> (2) An authorized represenative of the NTSB; or
> (3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement
> officer.
>
> In short, Barney Fife could "request" to see your cert, and probably
> seize it (I think that's another section of Part 61; definitely if
> you're intoxicated, as recent airline events have shown.).

It doesn't say you must present it immediately when Barney requests to see
it.


>
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004, Chuck wrote:
>
> >
> > "EDR" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In article >, Rick
Durden
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > EDR,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You are not required to submit to a ramp check.
> > > >
> > > > In fact, you are. The Federal Aviation Act, which created the FAA,
> > > > gives the FAA authority to monitor aviation activity. If you are
> > > > asked by a person who identifies him or herself as an FAA inspector,
> > > > you are obligated to show your pilot certificate if you have it with
> > > > you.
> > > >
> > > > I'm curious as to the basis for your statement above.
> > >
> > > Statement made by a FSDO Inspector.
> >
> >
> > It's funny how you can ask 5 different FSDO inspector the same question
and
> > get 5 different answers...
> >
> >
> >
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> Only in America will someone |
> order a Big Mac, large fries, |
> and a *Diet* Coke... |

[Harry Gordon]

<snip>

> Where do you keep your certificate?

<snip>

My certificate occupies the third place right behind my driver's license and
U.S.A.F. retired ID card in my wallet. I gladly will show it to anyone
interested. In my logbook, as others have indicated, I have a envelope glued
to the inside back cover. In that I keep my medical certificate; a copy of
the FAA Registry web page that shows my PP rating; a copy of my renter's
insurance coverage statement; and a copy of my long-since expired temporary
PP certificate - I know, it isn't required but it brings back a lot of
memories :-).

Harry
PP-ASEL

[Ron Natalie]

"Marcus Walls" > wrote in message ...
>
> Actually, I'm pretty sure that FCC regs DON'T require you to have
> license available when exercising the privledges.

Not anymore.
>
> I remember being told that I could exercise my license after seeing my
> newly issued callsign in the FCC's online database.

This is new in the past few years. Before you had to wait until you got the paper.

[Ron Natalie]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message . ..
>
> "Marcus Walls" > wrote in message ...
> >
> > Actually, I'm pretty sure that FCC regs DON'T require you to have
> > license available when exercising the privledges.
>
> Not anymore.

Sorry, that sounds ambiguous. What I was saying is that it is NO LONGER
required that you have the certificate in your possession.

> >
> > I remember being told that I could exercise my license after seeing my
> > newly issued callsign in the FCC's online database.
>
> This is new in the past few years. Before you had to wait until you got the paper.
>

[TaxSrv]

Dave Stadt wrote > >
> > In short, Barney Fife could "request" to see your cert, and
probably
> > seize it (I think that's another section of Part 61; definitely if
> > you're intoxicated, as recent airline events have shown.).
>
> It doesn't say you must present it immediately when Barney requests
to see
> it.

Feds don't write state laws; must look to wording of law in each
state, and they must have a law on the books to able to inspect the
cert. Sample:

"...and either or both of the certificates must be presented for
inspection upon the demand of any passenger, any peace officer, or any
official, manager, or person in charge of any airport or landing
field upon which the pilot or aircraft shall land."

The consequences of failure to present valid cert varies by state.
While most states make it misdemeanor to operate w/o a certificate,
the quoted state makes violation of the above a misdemeanor also. So,
here if you're observed by police operating an aircraft, and refuse to
present the certificate immediately upon demand, you can be arrested.

Fred F.

[Dave Stadt]

"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt wrote > >
> > > In short, Barney Fife could "request" to see your cert, and
> probably
> > > seize it (I think that's another section of Part 61; definitely if
> > > you're intoxicated, as recent airline events have shown.).
> >
> > It doesn't say you must present it immediately when Barney requests
> to see
> > it.
>
> Feds don't write state laws; must look to wording of law in each
> state, and they must have a law on the books to able to inspect the
> cert. Sample:
>
> "...and either or both of the certificates must be presented for
> inspection upon the demand of any passenger, any peace officer, or any
> official, manager, or person in charge of any airport or landing
> field upon which the pilot or aircraft shall land."
>
> The consequences of failure to present valid cert varies by state.
> While most states make it misdemeanor to operate w/o a certificate,
> the quoted state makes violation of the above a misdemeanor also. So,
> here if you're observed by police operating an aircraft, and refuse to
> present the certificate immediately upon demand, you can be arrested.
>
> Fred F.

The discussion was not in reference to operating an aircraft. The reference
was to anytime. I can't see any state passing legislation requiring me to
have my pilots certificate on my person while walking to the Seven 11. Then
again maybe I can. There is an overstock of really stupid politicians.

[David Kazdan]

Sure enough. From the FCC rules Q&A on their web page:

Q. Can I operate my station as soon as I see that information about my amateur
operator/primary station license grant appears on the amateur service data base?

A. Yes. You have authority to operate when the information about your license
grant appears on the data base.

Q. Does this mean that I don't have to wait until the license document arrives
in the mail?

A. That is correct. You do not have to have the license document in your
possession in order to operate an amateur station at a location where
communications are regulated by the FCC. See Part 97. Appendix 1.

Perhaps this was different in 1970 when I first took my Novice exam? My memory
is pretty strong that despite getting mail from The Little Print Shop, a QSL
printer in Texas whose owner must have waited outside the FCC building every day
to get the new license postings and send advertisements, I had to wait for the
license itself before I was supposed to operate my transmitter. Maybe not.

David

Marcus Walls wrote:
>
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:48:52 GMT, David Kazdan > wrote:
>
> >person. Federal law (FCC regs) do say that the license has to be immediately
> >available when the licensee is exercising the priveleges of his radio
> >transmitting license. Dad was incensed, I looked into it a little bit, found
> >that it happens occasionally, reportedly more in Michigan than in Ohio.
> >
>
> Actually, I'm pretty sure that FCC regs DON'T require you to have
> license available when exercising the privledges.
>
> I remember being told that I could exercise my license after seeing my
> newly issued callsign in the FCC's online database.

[StellaStar]

>officer could
>ask me for my pilot's licence because of the AOPA sticker on my car,

Can't you join AOPA if you are not a pilot? What if you were an aviation
writer, let your medical lapse, or were considering taking lessons?

I'd laugh at a cop who asked me for proof I had a right to the AOPA sticker. I
don't think it obliges me to show proof of anything. For heaven's sake, how
many folks stick a logo for a security company on their window so someone will
THINK they have an alarm system?

[Chuck]

"StellaStar" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> Can't you join AOPA if you are not a pilot? What if you were an aviation
> writer, let your medical lapse, or were considering taking lessons?
>

<snip>

Yes, I am a member of AOPA, but not a pilot... :(

[Dave Buckles]

Cub Driver wrote:
> certificate and the New Hampshire pilot's certificate.

I'm sorry, did I read that? New Hampshire has its own pilot certificate?

Silly me, I thought aviation was the exclusive domain of the Feds.

--Dave

--
Dave Buckles

http://www.flight-instruction.com

[TaxSrv]

Dave Buckles wrote:
> > Cub Driver wrote:
> > certificate and the New Hampshire pilot's certificate.
>
> I'm sorry, did I read that? New Hampshire has its own pilot
certificate?
>
> Silly me, I thought aviation was the exclusive domain of the Feds.

Can't find such a certificate in a quick browse of NH law, but
aviation is not the exclusive domain of the feds, but rather federal
preemption involves a complex set of rules the courts follow. Court
decisions go both ways.

Fred F.

[Cub Driver]

>> Can't you join AOPA if you are not a pilot? What if you were an aviation
>> writer, let your medical lapse, or were considering taking lessons?
>>
>
><snip>
>
>Yes, I am a member of AOPA, but not a pilot... :(

It's also possible to be a pilot and not a member of AOPA :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>I'm sorry, did I read that? New Hampshire has its own pilot certificate?

I think I may have been the last person to send in my $25. Evidently
it no longer exists.

To be strictly accurate, it is a STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE AIRMAN
REGISTRATION. My instructor assured me that if I ever had to make a
forced landing, the first thing that would happen is that the copper
would ask for it, and if I didn't have it, there would be a $300 fine.

Mine is good till 2005.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[David Brooks]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >I'm sorry, did I read that? New Hampshire has its own pilot certificate?
>
> I think I may have been the last person to send in my $25. Evidently
> it no longer exists.
>
> To be strictly accurate, it is a STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE AIRMAN
> REGISTRATION.

And, as many of us could tell you, the State o'Washington airman
registration recently went up from $8 all the way to $15. The main selling
point for the $8 was that it goes to the Search and Rescue fund. Now it's
"Your fees will go directly to support these educational outreach programs,
as well as the State's air search and rescue operations, and maintenance of
public use airports throughout Washington State."

Personally, I suspect that it costs more than $15 just to administer the
annual registration and send out the printed Pilots Guide, and it probably
cost more than $7 to publicize and defend the increase.

-- David Brooks

[Dennis O'Connor]

Certification of airmen IS reserved to the federal government as a matter of
settled case law - the idiot actions of various councilmen not
withstanding...
Other issues such as training schools having to do fingerprints, background
checks, etc., per state law are currently in litigation, but so far the
rulings are favoring the federal preemption - Michigan, et. al.
State laws that require an airman to display his certificate to state and
local LEO's upon demand, have generally been upheld at the appellate level
as part of state powers to ensure the public safety...
denny
"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...

[Dave Stadt]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Certification of airmen IS reserved to the federal government as a matter
of
> settled case law - the idiot actions of various councilmen not
> withstanding...
> Other issues such as training schools having to do fingerprints,
background
> checks, etc., per state law are currently in litigation, but so far the
> rulings are favoring the federal preemption - Michigan, et. al.

I believe the Michigan nonsense eventually got buried next to Jimmy Hoffa.