Real-life flight planning

[Paul Folbrecht]

Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
tools I'll use.

As a student, of course, I did everything by hand, and meticulously, and
eschewed GPS navigation as well. Some of my observations from my brief
XC experience thus far:

1) Winds aloft forecasts are never right- usually not close.

2) There's no need to produce a nav log, etc. with checkpoints when the
route is familiar.

So, for a route that is now familiar to me- say, Timmmerman (MWC) to
Appleton (ATW) (about 75nm), of course I get a briefing, and check the
winds aloft, but I'm not going to produce a nav log. I'm going to fly
by pilotage with my GPS to back me up and with a VOR receiver to back
that up. And, of course, if I encounter particularly unexpected
weather, I'm going to turn back.

For new routes, I am going to produce a nav log, knowing full well that
my heading will not likely match the precomputed values due to differing
winds aloft. No matter. But, of course, for such flights, I'm not
going to be doing things the old-fashioned way anymore. I want some
good software to make it easy.

So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
& greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
component too would be a plus.

~Paul

P.S. Hope this isn't too much of a "newbie" post for this forum.
Thought it was more appropriate here than over at .student.

[ArtP]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:43:42 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> wrote:

>
>So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
>the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
>I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
>google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
>& greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
>component too would be a plus.

I suggest you get familiar with DUATS (www.duats.com). For the Palm I
recommend AOPA eAFD for airport data, and Copilot. Copilot will not
provide automatic routing, but it is a good method of putting together
route information when you don't have access to the internet.

[C J Campbell]

AOPA's tool is a crippled form of FliteStar, which is arguably the most
complete package available even though it does not download anything to your
handheld. It will download routes to your GPS.

Flitesoft also works well, although the routing routines are not as
sophisticated as those in FliteStar.

PocketFMS is shareware. www.pocketfms.com. It is still a little rough around
the edges, but it does work with both your PC and your handheld. The latest
version appears to have added some more color graphics. There is no Palm
version available at the moment.

ControlVision's software works on your handheld only, but is not Palm
compatible.

My personal opinion is that having to fly without your handheld is like
having to hike without your bathtub.

[John Harper]

I used to do wonderful flight-plans when I was a student, with
waypoints every few miles, and winds aloft, and ground speeds,
and fuel consumption, and times to the nearest minute, and so on.
It's a useful skill, because it crops up on the FAA written tests.

Since getting my PPL, I haven't done it once (well, except for my
Instrument written). I use DUATS all the time.

-- winds aloft forecasts are, as you note, pretty much useless
-- my plane can fly for 6.3 hours with full tanks. The longest
I've done is about 4.5, and I was VERY glad to land
-- if I'm in VMC, I do check my route by pilotage regardless of
my principal navigation means (which is GPS), but I just figure
it out as I go with the sectional on my lap - actually that's one
of the most enjoyable bits of xc flying, for me

John

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> tools I'll use.
>
> As a student, of course, I did everything by hand, and meticulously, and
> eschewed GPS navigation as well. Some of my observations from my brief
> XC experience thus far:
>
> 1) Winds aloft forecasts are never right- usually not close.
>
> 2) There's no need to produce a nav log, etc. with checkpoints when the
> route is familiar.
>
> So, for a route that is now familiar to me- say, Timmmerman (MWC) to
> Appleton (ATW) (about 75nm), of course I get a briefing, and check the
> winds aloft, but I'm not going to produce a nav log. I'm going to fly
> by pilotage with my GPS to back me up and with a VOR receiver to back
> that up. And, of course, if I encounter particularly unexpected
> weather, I'm going to turn back.
>
> For new routes, I am going to produce a nav log, knowing full well that
> my heading will not likely match the precomputed values due to differing
> winds aloft. No matter. But, of course, for such flights, I'm not
> going to be doing things the old-fashioned way anymore. I want some
> good software to make it easy.
>
> So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
> the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
> I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
> google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
> & greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
> component too would be a plus.
>
> ~Paul
>
> P.S. Hope this isn't too much of a "newbie" post for this forum.
> Thought it was more appropriate here than over at .student.
>

[Bill Denton]

Several points I see here...

A couple of months ago one of the GA magazines did an article about what the
FAA regs required as far as the location of a pilot's certificate. From what
I remember, the regs previously required the certificate be on the pilots
person (billfold, etc). Again, from what I remember, it is now permissible
to have the certificate in the aircraft (flight bag, etc).

The next point is: it's 2003 and there is a terrorist under every rock.
Which means you are dealing with some non-FAA regulations on airport
property. I would not be surprised if a cop pulled over someone driving
around a non-terminal area and asking for some verifiable reason for the
person being there. Which creates a problem: as is noted elsewhere, an A & P
must be posted in the area where the holder performs most of his/her work.
And it would not be unreasonable for a pilot to leave his flight bag,
containing his certificate, in the airplane when he leaves the airport to
conduct business, go shopping, whatever (Hey, Deputy Dawg, this guy is
trying to convince me you can make business trips in those little Piper Cub
airplanes!).

I tend to take the line of least resistance: I've found that I can
frequently spend 15 seconds complying with an idiotic regulation/request, or
I can spend 30 minutes arguing about it. If it's not a huge civil liberties
issue, I'll comply with the idiotic request and be on my way.

Consequently, it would seem to be a reasonable idea to make a copy of my
certificate and stick it in my billfold/purse. I doubt if it would satisfy
the FAA, but for your average Bozo cop out there cruising the airport hoping
to stop a car with Osama in it, it would probably be satisfactory.

Just an opinion...




"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> tools I'll use.
>
> As a student, of course, I did everything by hand, and meticulously, and
> eschewed GPS navigation as well. Some of my observations from my brief
> XC experience thus far:
>
> 1) Winds aloft forecasts are never right- usually not close.
>
> 2) There's no need to produce a nav log, etc. with checkpoints when the
> route is familiar.
>
> So, for a route that is now familiar to me- say, Timmmerman (MWC) to
> Appleton (ATW) (about 75nm), of course I get a briefing, and check the
> winds aloft, but I'm not going to produce a nav log. I'm going to fly
> by pilotage with my GPS to back me up and with a VOR receiver to back
> that up. And, of course, if I encounter particularly unexpected
> weather, I'm going to turn back.
>
> For new routes, I am going to produce a nav log, knowing full well that
> my heading will not likely match the precomputed values due to differing
> winds aloft. No matter. But, of course, for such flights, I'm not
> going to be doing things the old-fashioned way anymore. I want some
> good software to make it easy.
>
> So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
> the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
> I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
> google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
> & greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
> component too would be a plus.
>
> ~Paul
>
> P.S. Hope this isn't too much of a "newbie" post for this forum.
> Thought it was more appropriate here than over at .student.
>

[Jim Fisher]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> The next point is: it's 2003 and there is a terrorist under every rock.

So what about 2004? ;)

To the original poster: DUATS gives me every thing I could need.

Aeroplanner.com give me everything I need and then some with the added
benefit of storing frequent routes. When I'm ready to fly a particular
route, I simply load up Aeroplanner and update the route for new weather the
print the thing.

--
Jim Fisher

[Hilton]

"Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> tools I'll use.
[zip]
> So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
> the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
> I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
> google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
> & greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
> component too would be a plus.

Paul,

WingX from http://www.hiltonsoftware.com runs on a Pocket PC and let's you
quickly do route planning with wind calculations, it'll do W&B and a whole
lot more including having Parts 1, 61, 91, 119, and 141 of the FARs right on
your PDA. It's pretty cool if I say so myself (ahem...) Disclaimer:
Should be obvious. :)

Try it, you'll like it - it's free to download and try.

Hilton

[John Bell]

> As a student, of course, I did everything by hand, and meticulously, and
> eschewed GPS navigation as well.

Try my site, www.cockpitgps.com for some info on using GPS. Someone
suggested that you use CoPilot for your Palm. Get it at www.palmgear.com.
The data is available at Paul Tomblin's excellent navaid.com.

--John Bell

[Snowbird]

Paul Folbrecht > wrote in message et>...

> 1) Winds aloft forecasts are never right- usually not close.
>
> 2) There's no need to produce a nav log, etc. with checkpoints when the
> route is familiar.

Well, I think you might wish to consider the implications of 1)
on 2).

If you're only planning flights which are so generously within
the range of your fuel-on-board that the Headwinds from Hell
couldn't run you out of fuel, it's not a factor.

But once you start trading fuel for other forms of useful load
(pax and baggage) and flying longer flights, you need SOME means
of giving yourself the 'wake-up' call -- whoops, I'm going to
need another fuel stop.

So, how do you accomplish this? Well, one way is to make a
hard and fast rule "always land after X hrs of flight time".
But there are problems with this strategy. First, you need to
make sure "X" doesn't become fixed in your mind as a single
number, otherwise sometime you might take off with less fuel
and be running on fumes first. That's just a matter of doing
a preflight calculation and writing the number down. Of
more concern is, it might prove inconvenient to land near
the end of the flight due to limited or no airports, expensive
fuel, or flight plan hassles taking off again. If you have
to backtrack, detour, pay through the nose, or suffer delays,
the siren call of "maybe I have enough fuel to make it--I
really should..." becomes more seductive.

So, another way is to make a flight log and compare ATAs to
ETAs for enough waypoints to realize early-on when an extra
fuel stop is likely, and make the best, most convenient choice.

This applies whether the route is so familiar that you could
fly it in your sleep, or whether you're flying it for the
first time.

Now mind you, when I was a student pilot I was made to plot
checkpoints quite close -- maybe every 20-30 miles. That's
really not necessary IRL and would become quite time-consuming
when planning a 900 mile flight.

> For new routes, I am going to produce a nav log, knowing full well that
> my heading will not likely match the precomputed values due to differing
> winds aloft. No matter. But, of course, for such flights, I'm not
> going to be doing things the old-fashioned way anymore. I want some
> good software to make it easy.

Since you have a Palm OS PDA, I strongly recommend Laurie Davis'
"Co-Pilot" program with Paul Tomblin's waypoint database. It won't
run on your PC, but it's simple, user friendly, and the price is right
(donations optional but appreciated).

On the PC, I use is DUATS flight planner combined with a paper
low-altitude enroute chart to sanity check routing and Airnav.com
to find inexpensive fuel stops.

I've used AOPA's tool and Aeroplanner and I like them both, but
I can accomplish more faster without the graphical interface.

In DUATS flight planner, select "direct routing for GPS/loran"
to get a list of VOR degree-distance waypoints which make plotting
a long route onto a VFR chart a cinch.

> So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense?

Makes sense, barring the caveat that familiarity does not
remove the need for a nav log in some circs, and is a very
appropriate post for either .piloting or .student IMO.

Have fun,
Sydney

[Jay Honeck]

> Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> tools I'll use.

First of all, it seems that everyone here has forgotten their manners --
CONGRATULATIONS, Paul! Welcome to the .0005% of the world that gets to fly!

As far as flight-planning goes, I'd recommend checking these out:

1. www.Aeroplanner.com has some really great on-line flight planning
stuff -- including the ability to print out sectionals with your course line
and 10-mile-ticks superimposed. They are fabulous on long trips, cuz
they're on notebook-sized paper and you just "flip" from one map to the
next. No "octopus arms" in the cockpit, fighting to fold a sectional!

2. Destination Direct ( www.destdirect.com/ ) is (IMHO) the best stand-alone
PC flight planner. I've used it for years, and was able to flight plan your
trip from Timmerman to Appleton in about five seconds, with fuel burn, ETA,
waypoints, etc.

As time goes on and you garner more flight experience, you'll find that you
really can't get lost, as long as you know just a very few basic landmarks
along your route. For example, to fly from Iowa City, IA to Janesville, WI,
do I *really* need a flight log that ticks off every railroad track and
power line from here to there?

Nah. So long as I know where (a) I-80 is, (b) the Mississippi River is, and
(c) the nuclear power plant in Rockford, IL is (it emits a tower of steam
visible for 50 miles), and have a rough idea of the necessary heading and
winds aloft, it's almost impossible NOT to find Janesville. Overlay this
knowledge with your VORs, a clock, and a moving map GPS, and, shoot, you'd
have to be pretty unlucky to really get "lost."

By the way, where did you train -- Timmerman? I trained in East Troy ten
years ago, and lived in Racine until '97.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Travis Marlatte]

My briefing strategy changed when AOPA launched their recent planner. Best
free planner out there.

For long multi-leg cross-country VFR or IFR from home: Plan less than 4 hour
legs out of a 5 hour tank. Use AOPA's planner and ADDS for planning the day
(or days) before. DUATS briefing (using AOPA's planner) to get a weather
update, NOTAMS, and to make it official the day of the flight.

With the planner, I start with the origin and destination and the rubber
band the route to nearby nav aids or airports along the way. The Nav Log
that it puts out is fine for me. I print it out forward and backward so I'm
ready for the trip home.

Long multi-leg cross-country VFR away from home: Plan less than 4 hour legs
out of a 5 hour tank. ADDS and DUATS briefing using a web site interface to
get a weather update, NOTAMS, and to make it official for planning and the
day of the flight. Might be replaced by using a weather station at an FBO.
My last choice is to do this over the phone.

I will plan out a route even if I am planning to fly direct using my
handheld GPS. It provides enroute time checks and a back up. It also gives
me a chance to validate the route against TFRs or other hazards. I don't
want to be flight planning in the air. It also provides some enroute points
to talk about with a briefer, if I end up doing it over the phone.

I agree with abbreviated planning for a familar route that is less than a
few hours. If it's a clear day and I'm going for a breakfast or lunch at a
nearby airport, I'll call for a briefing on the way to the airport. That is
the minimum I will do.

Anything more than an hour from home and I want to have a good idea about
weather and enroute checkpoints. Since winds aloft are so variable, I need
something to measure my progress. Maybe I'm trying to get there and back on
one tank of fuel. What starts out as a short little flight with no worries
could turn into a fuel crisis on the way home.

I subscribed to Aeroplanner for one month. Nice service but too expensive
for weekend flyers and too slow. The Cirrus interface for DUATS is also a
waste of time now that AOPA's planner is out. I haven't tried any other
fee-based planning services.
-------------------------------
Travis


"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> tools I'll use.
>
> As a student, of course, I did everything by hand, and meticulously, and
> eschewed GPS navigation as well. Some of my observations from my brief
> XC experience thus far:
>
> 1) Winds aloft forecasts are never right- usually not close.
>
> 2) There's no need to produce a nav log, etc. with checkpoints when the
> route is familiar.
>
> So, for a route that is now familiar to me- say, Timmmerman (MWC) to
> Appleton (ATW) (about 75nm), of course I get a briefing, and check the
> winds aloft, but I'm not going to produce a nav log. I'm going to fly
> by pilotage with my GPS to back me up and with a VOR receiver to back
> that up. And, of course, if I encounter particularly unexpected
> weather, I'm going to turn back.
>
> For new routes, I am going to produce a nav log, knowing full well that
> my heading will not likely match the precomputed values due to differing
> winds aloft. No matter. But, of course, for such flights, I'm not
> going to be doing things the old-fashioned way anymore. I want some
> good software to make it easy.
>
> So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
> the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
> I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
> google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
> & greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
> component too would be a plus.
>
> ~Paul
>
> P.S. Hope this isn't too much of a "newbie" post for this forum.
> Thought it was more appropriate here than over at .student.
>

[Travis Marlatte]

Oops. I already replied, realized that I forgot a congratulations, then saw
that Jay beat me to it. Anyway, congrats.

re: downloaded charts. In my mind - fuhgedaboudit. I'm not wasting all that
color ink for charts that are not quite as good as the real thing and only
show you a small section with no connection to the adjacent plats. But then
I love maps. I have no problem folding them around in the cockpit.

re: familar route: Coming back from Michigan to Chicago after Thanksgiving
weekend. A route that I have flown 20 times in the last couple of years. I
hit headwinds that were 40 to 60 knots. You bet I was watching time and
landmarks.

--
-------------------------------
Travis


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:l9XQb.19922$U%5.156877@attbi_s03...
> > Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> > of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> > tools I'll use.
>
> First of all, it seems that everyone here has forgotten their manners --
> CONGRATULATIONS, Paul! Welcome to the .0005% of the world that gets to
fly!
>
> As far as flight-planning goes, I'd recommend checking these out:
>
> 1. www.Aeroplanner.com has some really great on-line flight planning
> stuff -- including the ability to print out sectionals with your course
line
> and 10-mile-ticks superimposed. They are fabulous on long trips, cuz
> they're on notebook-sized paper and you just "flip" from one map to the
> next. No "octopus arms" in the cockpit, fighting to fold a sectional!
>
> 2. Destination Direct ( www.destdirect.com/ ) is (IMHO) the best
stand-alone
> PC flight planner. I've used it for years, and was able to flight plan
your
> trip from Timmerman to Appleton in about five seconds, with fuel burn,
ETA,
> waypoints, etc.
>
> As time goes on and you garner more flight experience, you'll find that
you
> really can't get lost, as long as you know just a very few basic landmarks
> along your route. For example, to fly from Iowa City, IA to Janesville,
WI,
> do I *really* need a flight log that ticks off every railroad track and
> power line from here to there?
>
> Nah. So long as I know where (a) I-80 is, (b) the Mississippi River is,
and
> (c) the nuclear power plant in Rockford, IL is (it emits a tower of steam
> visible for 50 miles), and have a rough idea of the necessary heading and
> winds aloft, it's almost impossible NOT to find Janesville. Overlay this
> knowledge with your VORs, a clock, and a moving map GPS, and, shoot, you'd
> have to be pretty unlucky to really get "lost."
>
> By the way, where did you train -- Timmerman? I trained in East Troy ten
> years ago, and lived in Racine until '97.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:l9XQb.19922$U%5.156877@attbi_s03...
>
> By the way, where did you train -- Timmerman? I trained in East Troy ten
> years ago, and lived in Racine until '97.

Ah, memories! I was born and raised about six miles from Timmerman (Silver
Spring and Lydell).

Then, I "Escaped FROM Wisconsin". :~)

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>1. www.Aeroplanner.com has some really great on-line flight planning
>stuff -- including the ability to print out sectionals with your course line
>and 10-mile-ticks superimposed. They are fabulous on long trips, cuz
>they're on notebook-sized paper and you just "flip" from one map to the
>next. No "octopus arms" in the cockpit, fighting to fold a sectional!

I like AeroPlanner, but this year I bought a Howie Keefe Air Chart Systems
IFR Atlas, and it was GREAT for en-route. I mark my route using removable
highlighter tape that I got from Sportys. For this year, I'm ordering a
VFR Sectional Atlas as well.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Just another organic pain collector racing to oblivion

[C J Campbell]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
|
| The next point is: it's 2003 and

I wish people would not say this. While your own post was pretty good, there
is an incredible amount of silliness that is being justified just because
"it is 2003" (or 4, or whatever). Whenever someone starts out this way I am
99% certain that some wretched, silly statement is about to follow. Yours
was an exception, but a rare one.

[Clyde Campbell]

I use the Contel Duats, enflight.com, and the AOPA flight planners.
Each one requires a little bit of getting used to but they all provide
just about everything you will need.

For the palm, I recommend Co-Pilot. It does everything I need,
including calculating the windss aloft so you can pass them on as a
pirep.

[Paul Folbrecht]

Thanks, but I have a Palm device, not PocketPC.

> WingX from http://www.hiltonsoftware.com runs on a Pocket PC and let's you
> quickly do route planning with wind calculations, it'll do W&B and a whole
> lot more including having Parts 1, 61, 91, 119, and 141 of the FARs right on
> your PDA. It's pretty cool if I say so myself (ahem...) Disclaimer:
> Should be obvious. :)
>
> Try it, you'll like it - it's free to download and try.
>
> Hilton
>
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

Heh. Point taken. Do it on the PC at home and there's no real need for
the Palm.

My hiking did become way more enjoyable when I stopped lugging the damn
bathtub everywhere. I even leave the accordian behind most trips now.

> My personal opinion is that having to fly without your handheld is like
> having to hike without your bathtub.
>
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

Wow, thanks a ton to everyone for all the replies so fast.

A couple things:

1) I have used duats a lot for wx but not yet for planning.

2) I have a Garmin 295 GPS and I didn't even know it was possible to
download route data to it. Damn, that is cool. Gonna have to read that
manual.

[Paul Folbrecht]

> First of all, it seems that everyone here has forgotten their manners --
> CONGRATULATIONS, Paul! Welcome to the .0005% of the world that gets to fly!

Nah, not necessary. I got enough back-patting over at RAS. But thanks. :-)

> As far as flight-planning goes, I'd recommend checking these out:
>
> 1. www.Aeroplanner.com has some really great on-line flight planning
> stuff -- including the ability to print out sectionals with your course line
> and 10-mile-ticks superimposed. They are fabulous on long trips, cuz
> they're on notebook-sized paper and you just "flip" from one map to the
> next. No "octopus arms" in the cockpit, fighting to fold a sectional!

Now that is cool- I had wondered if such software (that printed
sectionals with routes) was available and figured that it must be. This
I will have to check out.

> 2. Destination Direct ( www.destdirect.com/ ) is (IMHO) the best stand-alone
> PC flight planner. I've used it for years, and was able to flight plan your
> trip from Timmerman to Appleton in about five seconds, with fuel burn, ETA,
> waypoints, etc.

<snip>

> By the way, where did you train -- Timmerman? I trained in East Troy ten
> years ago, and lived in Racine until '97.

Yep, Timmerman. I actually live just over the line into Racine county
right now, on 7 Mile Rd, which I'm sure you remember.

BTW, your establishment is definitely on my list of places to visit at
some point.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Paul Folbrecht > said:
>Heh. Point taken. Do it on the PC at home and there's no real need for
>the Palm.

Ok, just one small plug for CoPilot (see
http://xcski.com/~ptomblin/CoPilot/), even though the other posters have
been doing it for me.

A few months ago I was coming back from Muskegeon. That's a long trip for
me, and since I'm flying club planes I haven't "calibrated" the fuel flow
exactly. So I like get on the ground after 3.5 hours, even though
theoretically I could probably get 4.5 hours out of the tanks. I'd done
the flight plan earlier, and put all the appropriate waypoints into
CoPilot. With no wind, I would be nudging my comfort zone, so I made sure
I had the Buffalo approach plates on my knee board on top of the Rochester
ones, and figured I might have to make a refueling stop in Buffalo.

That morning, I called up flight service from my motel room, and got the
weather and winds aloft. Plugging the winds aloft into CoPilot, and I
could see that it would still be 3.6 hours to Rochester, so I filed to
Buffalo. All the time aloft, I was watching the ETAs in CoPilot and
comparing them to reality, and found I was getting better winds than
forecast. I recalculated the winds, found I could make it to Rochester,
so I asked ATC for a diversion to Rochester, and went home.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Usenet is a co-operative venture, backed by nasty people -
follow the standards.
-- Chris Rovers

[Jay Honeck]

> Yep, Timmerman. I actually live just over the line into Racine county
> right now, on 7 Mile Rd, which I'm sure you remember.

Good God, man -- Mary (my wife) lived on 7 Mile Rd (just west of Hwy 32)
when I first met her! I must have driven down that road a thousand times...

Small world!

Now go enjoy a Derango's pizza for me, have some perch at Dino's (on 16th
St.), and start your day off right with some pecan kringle from O&H bakery!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[C J Campbell]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
| Wow, thanks a ton to everyone for all the replies so fast.
|
| A couple things:
|
| 1) I have used duats a lot for wx but not yet for planning.
|
| 2) I have a Garmin 295 GPS and I didn't even know it was possible to
| download route data to it. Damn, that is cool. Gonna have to read that
| manual.

You will like it a lot less once you have tried it.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Paul Folbrecht > posted:

> 2) I have a Garmin 295 GPS and I didn't even know it was possible to
> download route data to it. Damn, that is cool. Gonna have to read
> that manual.
>
I also have a Garmin 295, and find it much easier to just enter the route
during planning.

Neil

[Snowbird]

Paul Folbrecht > wrote in message . net>...
> > 1. www.Aeroplanner.com has some really great on-line flight planning
> > stuff -- including the ability to print out sectionals with your course line
> > and 10-mile-ticks superimposed. They are fabulous on long trips, cuz
> > they're on notebook-sized paper and you just "flip" from one map to the
> > next. No "octopus arms" in the cockpit, fighting to fold a sectional!

> Now that is cool- I had wondered if such software (that printed
> sectionals with routes) was available and figured that it must be. This
> I will have to check out.

FWIW, we tried it out and we didn't like it. I bought a month and
did several long trips (2-3 3 1/2 hr legs) and several short trips.
I deliberately set up the triptiks to be more pages and wider, so
that if we had to deviate or detour maybe we'd stay on the chart.

The problem we had is that even a reasonably straightforward
detour for afternoon t-storms took us off the edge of the triptik.
Strategic replanning for the return trip (the sort where you
wind up flying a totally different route due to wx systems) and
we might as well throw it out.

So I would say, if you try it make sure you have other charts,
at least WACs, to back up your planning.

Of course I suppose you could always just not deviate :)

Sydney




> > 2. Destination Direct ( www.destdirect.com/ ) is (IMHO) the best stand-alone
> > PC flight planner. I've used it for years, and was able to flight plan your
> > trip from Timmerman to Appleton in about five seconds, with fuel burn, ETA,
> > waypoints, etc.
>
> <snip>
>
> > By the way, where did you train -- Timmerman? I trained in East Troy ten
> > years ago, and lived in Racine until '97.
>
> Yep, Timmerman. I actually live just over the line into Racine county
> right now, on 7 Mile Rd, which I'm sure you remember.
>
> BTW, your establishment is definitely on my list of places to visit at
> some point.

[Blanche]

More congrats!

As for getting lost...If I can't see Pikes Peak, then I'm lost. Or
else it's too foggy/rainy/snowy to go fly VFR.

(*chortle*)

[Jeff]

I use duats ( www.duats.com )
its free and will do your winds, fuel, ground speed, everything, for you.
all you is put in where your at and where your going.

You will see after a few short X-C's by yourself if you really need to do a
nav log. the thing is to do what your comfortable with, do it safely and use
common sense.

Wednesday morning, I am flying from las vegas to the los angeles basin, I
have 6 hours of fuel on board so I dont care about fuel usage, I know it
takes me about an hour to get there, so all I am concerned about is what
altitude will I get the best ground speed and smoothest ride.


Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> Being newly licenced (yesterday), I've started thinking about the type
> of VFR flight-planning I'll do in the real, post-student world, and what
> tools I'll use.
>
> As a student, of course, I did everything by hand, and meticulously, and
> eschewed GPS navigation as well. Some of my observations from my brief
> XC experience thus far:
>
> 1) Winds aloft forecasts are never right- usually not close.
>
> 2) There's no need to produce a nav log, etc. with checkpoints when the
> route is familiar.
>
> So, for a route that is now familiar to me- say, Timmmerman (MWC) to
> Appleton (ATW) (about 75nm), of course I get a briefing, and check the
> winds aloft, but I'm not going to produce a nav log. I'm going to fly
> by pilotage with my GPS to back me up and with a VOR receiver to back
> that up. And, of course, if I encounter particularly unexpected
> weather, I'm going to turn back.
>
> For new routes, I am going to produce a nav log, knowing full well that
> my heading will not likely match the precomputed values due to differing
> winds aloft. No matter. But, of course, for such flights, I'm not
> going to be doing things the old-fashioned way anymore. I want some
> good software to make it easy.
>
> So, I think I have two questions: 1) Does this make sense? and 2) What's
> the best flight-planning software out there? I've used AOPA's tool and
> I like it, but I don't really know what's out there (and yeah I can do a
> google search but then you don't know if you're hearing about the latest
> & greatest). I do have a Palm 5 device so PC software that has a Palm
> component too would be a plus.
>
> ~Paul
>
> P.S. Hope this isn't too much of a "newbie" post for this forum.
> Thought it was more appropriate here than over at .student.

[Paul Folbrecht]

Heh. Actually I'm quite a bit west of where you were- 8707 7 Mile Road
to be exact, 4.5 miles west of 94. So, I think about 8-10 miles west of 32.

Maybe you can talk me into flying some cringle out to the hotel some
time this summer. :-) As for me- I have not been able to touch the
stuff since I ate a whole one by myself when I was about 12. No lie.

~Paul

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Yep, Timmerman. I actually live just over the line into Racine county
>>right now, on 7 Mile Rd, which I'm sure you remember.
>
>
> Good God, man -- Mary (my wife) lived on 7 Mile Rd (just west of Hwy 32)
> when I first met her! I must have driven down that road a thousand times...
>
> Small world!
>
> Now go enjoy a Derango's pizza for me, have some perch at Dino's (on 16th
> St.), and start your day off right with some pecan kringle from O&H bakery!
>
> :-)

[Dean Wilkinson]

***************************************
IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT
***************************************

Razor's Edge Software is changing its product pricing for AirPlan.
Previously, sectional charts were sold as an add-on supplement to
AirPlan. In order to provide greater product value and a higher level
of service to existing AirPlan customers and future AirPlan customers,
the product will now include sectionals chart chunks as part of the
base product.

The new pricing for AirPlan is as follows:

AirPlan on CD ROM with U.S. Sectionals: $99.00
AirPlan and sectionals by download only: $79.00

Purchase includes 1 year of updates by download for both the database
and sectional charts.

After the first year, each additional year of updates by download is
$20.00. A set of CD ROM updates can be obtained for $25.00

Any current AirPlan customers who purchased sectional charts with
AirPlan or have subscribed to sectional charts by download after July
1 2003 will have additional years of update service added to their
accounts equivalent to the price differential. Charts sold prior to
July 1 2003 were derived from Softchart International so no such
compensation can be offered. Look for individual emails regarding
your adjustment.

Razor's Edge Software hopes that our existing customers will find
AirPlan to be of greater value to them with this increase in service.
Any customers who have purchased AirPlan in the past but are not
current on their update subscriptions are welcome to renew their
subscriptions and download charts.
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/renew.htm

As always, word of mouth referrals are appreciated. As you may be
aware, the market for flight planning software is limited in size
(yes, we pilots are a rare breed). At the same time, advertising
rates in aviation magazines are quite high. In order to keep AirPlan
at a reasonable price point, we limit our advertising to the internet
and aviation events.

Look for our booth at the Airventure fly-in at Oshkosh in 2004!
http://www.razorsedgesoft.com/airplan

[Jay Honeck]

> So I would say, if you try it make sure you have other charts,
> at least WACs, to back up your planning.

Yeah, we kept the WACs on board when using the Trip Ticks, just in case.

Didn't need 'em, though. We never went off the maps, even when diverting
around icing (on our way back from Sun N Fun last year) -- those maps are
pretty wide. You musta diverted pretty far!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Folbrecht]

Where are you located, Tom?

Tom Fleischman wrote:

> DeRango's friday fish fry is nothing to sneeze at either, except I can
> never seem to get in the door the place is so crowded on Fridays every
> time I try.
>
> My favorite O&H Kringle is the apple.

[Jay Honeck]

> > > My favorite O&H Kringle is the apple.
>
> I live near NYC, but visit my wife's family in South Milwaukee often.

Geez, Tom, I lost track of this thread!

You know, you have a "name-sake" at the Racine airport? He's a school
teacher, and we used to rent planes from him. (A Skyhawk, in particular,
N172TM) He has three or four aircraft.

In fact, the first few times I saw you post, I thought you were him!

(Pecan or cherry-cheese are fabulous kringles, too)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Snowbird]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<xlQRb.44403$U%5.236284@attbi_s03>...
> Yeah, we kept the WACs on board when using the Trip Ticks, just in case.

My "tick" is, I really don't like WACs, especially if I wind
up flying VFR under a layer.

> Didn't need 'em, though. We never went off the maps, even when diverting
> around icing (on our way back from Sun N Fun last year) -- those maps are
> pretty wide. You musta diverted pretty far!

I would say the opposite. You must not have diverted far at all,
if you stayed on the triptiks. My CFI went off the triptik I made for
him (IFR low-alt's, which are more like WACs in scale) with a modest
diversion around afternoon heating thunderstorms near coastal
GA. I've had the same experience with Aeroplanner triptik
sectionals -- just a modest diversion to land short of our planned
fuel stop and a bit south of the route took us off the chart, and
a modest ATC rerouting when we took off again under IFR kept us off.

But yes, to avoid wx systems we sometimes do replan our flights in
a significant way. Fly from Baltimore to St. Louis via W. Va
instead of via OH and that kind of thing.

If I recall correctly, coming back from Sun n Fun you guys weren't
too happy about the wx -- I seem to recall you thought you were
pushing it, wound up in lower ceilings/vis than you like and picking
up icing and Mary wasn't sure she wanted to do the trip again?
Excuse me if I'm remembering incorrectly. My only point being
sometimes rerouting with a broader scale is helpful with
that sort of thing (and of course sometimes not).

Cheers,
Sydney

[Jay Honeck]

> If I recall correctly, coming back from Sun n Fun you guys weren't
> too happy about the wx -- I seem to recall you thought you were
> pushing it, wound up in lower ceilings/vis than you like and picking
> up icing and Mary wasn't sure she wanted to do the trip again?

Boy, that's for sure. The weather was a royal pain coming back from
Florida. (On the way down, we saw nary a cloud.)

But re-routing wouldn't have helped -- unless I could have re-routed into
spring. :-) The storms in our path straddled the width of the Florida
pan-handle, and diverting wasn't an option. (We would have had to divert
well off the east cost of the U.S, or out into the Gulf of Mexico, to get
around them!) We eventually picked our way through, after spending an
afternoon waiting them out in some utterly forgettable town.

Then, up north (after spending the night in Birmingham, AL) where we hit the
icing, we were on the east side of a North/South oriented front that was
marching east. We kept diverting east as we headed north, to stay in the
clear, until we finally got around the top of it.

Again, re-routing on a grand scale wouldn't have helped -- our only other
option would have been to park the plane and wait for the front to pass. If
the weather had continued down-hill, we were prepared to do just that --
but, as you may recall, we broke into the clear on the back-side of the
front just as Mary was diverting to land.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article <NoOUb.105918$U%5.546571@attbi_s03>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> But re-routing wouldn't have helped -- unless I could have re-routed into
> spring. :-) The storms in our path straddled the width of the Florida
> pan-handle, and diverting wasn't an option. (We would have had to divert
> well off the east cost of the U.S, or out into the Gulf of Mexico, to get
> around them!) We eventually picked our way through, after spending an
> afternoon waiting them out in some utterly forgettable town.
> Then, up north (after spending the night in Birmingham, AL) where we hit the
> icing, we were on the east side of a North/South oriented front that was
> marching east. We kept diverting east as we headed north, to stay in the
> clear, until we finally got around the top of it.

As I recall, if you left after Thursday, the weather covered from the
Mississippi to the Atlantic, from Texas to Maine.

I left Thursday morning and had 15 to 50 mph tailwinds between 1000 and
4000 MSL. The farther north I got, the stronger the winds blew ahead of
the Low pressure system moving northeast out of the Southern Plains.
Lakeland to Columbus Ohio in a 65 hp 7AC in 10 hours and four fuel
stops. Ground speeds from 90 to 125 mph.