Video from Day 1 of Region 4 North 2012

[Sean F (F2)]

Video here ---> https://vimeo.com/52396659

Side note: Interesting PowerFLARM warning in at the 9:13 point of this video.

The glider that bumped directly thru this thermal (about 20 ft. below me) will go unnamed. I am not claiming he/she did anything wrong at this point. But...this happens often to me OFTEN in contests. My understanding is that contest pilots should not fly directly at another glider established in a thermal and should NOT do their pull-up at such close proximity. I had to change my direction significantly to stay in a position that I considered safe.

My understanding is that a contest pilot MUST do their pull-up outside the thermal and blend in safely from the side of the thermal in a safe, predicable and benign manner. This is rarely the case in my experience. The glider in the thermal should have, for lack of a better work, the RIGHT OF WAY. But many, many do the straight in attack run technique in the contest environment. It can be very distracting. I have another video of a couple "incident's" at this summer's Sports Class Nationals that were far, far, FAR worse. Ill may put those up at some point in the future.

How would the rules committee govern this? How can this be enforced, if it is improper technique or unsafe according to the standards the rules committee has set? What are the consequences for unsafe flying and how does one prove that they have been subjected to an unsafe pilots poor technique (or worse)? Seems like the onus is, unfortunately on me. Seems like the wild west at times. I see no disciplinary action happen to pilots who cause, for example, collisions.

My goal is to better understand where the line is drawn and what I should expect and not expect.

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:10:58 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Video here ---> https://vimeo.com/52396659 Side note: Interesting PowerFLARM warning in at the 9:13 point of this video. The glider that bumped directly thru this thermal (about 20 ft. below me) will go unnamed. I am not claiming he/she did anything wrong at this point. But...this happens often to me OFTEN in contests. My understanding is that contest pilots should not fly directly at another glider established in a thermal and should NOT do their pull-up at such close proximity. I had to change my direction significantly to stay in a position that I considered safe. My understanding is that a contest pilot MUST do their pull-up outside the thermal and blend in safely from the side of the thermal in a safe, predicable and benign manner. This is rarely the case in my experience. The glider in the thermal should have, for lack of a better work, the RIGHT OF WAY. But many, many do the straight in attack run technique in the contest environment. It can be very distracting. I have another video of a couple "incident's" at this summer's Sports Class Nationals that were far, far, FAR worse. Ill may put those up at some point in the future. How would the rules committee govern this? How can this be enforced, if it is improper technique or unsafe according to the standards the rules committee has set? What are the consequences for unsafe flying and how does one prove that they have been subjected to an unsafe pilots poor technique (or worse)? Seems like the onus is, unfortunately on me. Seems like the wild west at times. I see no disciplinary action happen to pilots who cause, for example, collisions. My goal is to better understand where the line is drawn and what I should expect and not expect.

Your description of entry technique describes best practices commonly taught even in basic training. I've reviewed this topic probably 10 times in safety talks in the last few years. It is the obligation of the entering pilot to not hinder the established pilot. It is not a rule, but very well established good practice for safety and courtesy.
Obviously there is no rule related to bumping a thermal and continuing. The pilot bumping has the same obligation to not affect the other pilot as the one entering.
How do you handle a situation after the fact?
1- Talk to the other pilot and find out if he or she saw you. Explain to them that the close proximity situation they created made you feel unsafe. The proper response from that pilot should be to accept your concern and agree to try not to repeat it.
2- Use the "safety box". This brings your concern to the attention of the contest organizers. A pattern of complaints about an individual will result in discussion with the offending pilot. Note some CD's, myself being one of those, would prefer to hear directly from the concerned pilot so they can better understand what occured.
3- There is disciplinary action for pilots involved in mid air collisions. For them, the flight end right there- mostly to encourage the decision to land promptly and safely. Damage to the glider usually can be expected to serve as any required additional punishment.
The goal is for all of us to act in a sportsmanlike manner so we can all enjoy our sport.
Nice video and a good discussion point. Expect to be asked to discuss this topic at an upcoming safety talk.
UH

[shkdriver]

On Oct 31, 8:37*am, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:10:58 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> > Video here --->https://vimeo.com/52396659Side note: Interesting PowerFLARM warning in at the 9:13 point of this video. The glider that bumped directly thru this thermal (about 20 ft. below me) will go unnamed. I am not claiming he/she did anything wrong at this point. But...this happens often to me OFTEN in contests. My understanding is that contest pilots should not fly directly at another glider established in a thermal and should NOT do their pull-up at such close proximity. I had to change my direction significantly to stay in a position that I considered safe. My understanding is that a contest pilot MUST do their pull-up outside the thermal and blend in safely from the side of the thermal in a safe, predicable and benign manner. This is rarely the case in my experience. The glider in the thermal should have, for lack of a better work, the RIGHT OF WAY. But many, many do the straight in attack run technique in the contest environment. It can be very distracting. I have another video of a couple "incident's" at this summer's Sports Class Nationals that were far, far, FAR worse. Ill may put those up at some point in the future. How would the rules committee govern this? How can this be enforced, if it is improper technique or unsafe according to the standards the rules committee has set? What are the consequences for unsafe flying and how does one prove that they have been subjected to an unsafe pilots poor technique (or worse)? Seems like the onus is, unfortunately on me. Seems like the wild west at times. I see no disciplinary action happen to pilots who cause, for example, collisions. My goal is to better understand where the line is drawn and what I should expect and not expect.
>
> Your description of entry technique describes best practices commonly taught even in basic training. I've reviewed this topic probably 10 times in safety talks in the last few years. It is the obligation of the entering pilot to not hinder the established pilot. It is not a rule, but very well established good practice for safety and courtesy.
> Obviously there is no rule related to bumping a thermal and continuing. The pilot bumping has the same obligation to not affect the other pilot as the one entering.
> How do you handle a situation after the fact?
> 1- Talk to the other pilot and find out if he or she saw you. Explain to them that the close proximity situation they created made you feel unsafe. The proper response from that pilot should be to accept your concern and agree to try not to repeat it.
> 2- Use the "safety box". This brings your concern to the attention of the contest organizers. A pattern of complaints about an individual will result in discussion with the offending pilot. Note some CD's, myself being one of those, would prefer to hear directly from the concerned pilot so they can better understand what occured.
> 3- There is disciplinary action for pilots involved in mid air collisions.. For them, the flight end right there- mostly to encourage the decision to land promptly and safely. Damage to the glider usually can be expected to serve as any required additional punishment.
> The goal is for all of us to act in a sportsmanlike manner so we can all enjoy our sport.
> Nice video and a good discussion point. Expect to be asked to discuss this topic at an upcoming safety talk.
> UH


Great video, thanks for sharing it!
I would guess that pilot never saw you, and if he did, that would be
about the most dangerous act of piloting imaginable!


Thanks again for the video!

Scott W.

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

On Oct 31, 8:37*am, wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:10:58 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> > Video here --->https://vimeo.com/52396659Side note: Interesting PowerFLARM warning in at the 9:13 point of this video. The glider that bumped directly thru this thermal (about 20 ft. below me) will go unnamed. I am not claiming he/she did anything wrong at this point. But...this happens often to me OFTEN in contests. My understanding is that contest pilots should not fly directly at another glider established in a thermal and should NOT do their pull-up at such close proximity. I had to change my direction significantly to stay in a position that I considered safe. My understanding is that a contest pilot MUST do their pull-up outside the thermal and blend in safely from the side of the thermal in a safe, predicable and benign manner. This is rarely the case in my experience. The glider in the thermal should have, for lack of a better work, the RIGHT OF WAY. But many, many do the straight in attack run technique in the contest environment. It can be very distracting. I have another video of a couple "incident's" at this summer's Sports Class Nationals that were far, far, FAR worse. Ill may put those up at some point in the future. How would the rules committee govern this? How can this be enforced, if it is improper technique or unsafe according to the standards the rules committee has set? What are the consequences for unsafe flying and how does one prove that they have been subjected to an unsafe pilots poor technique (or worse)? Seems like the onus is, unfortunately on me. Seems like the wild west at times. I see no disciplinary action happen to pilots who cause, for example, collisions. My goal is to better understand where the line is drawn and what I should expect and not expect.
>
> Your description of entry technique describes best practices commonly taught even in basic training. I've reviewed this topic probably 10 times in safety talks in the last few years. It is the obligation of the entering pilot to not hinder the established pilot. It is not a rule, but very well established good practice for safety and courtesy.
> Obviously there is no rule related to bumping a thermal and continuing. The pilot bumping has the same obligation to not affect the other pilot as the one entering.
> How do you handle a situation after the fact?
> 1- Talk to the other pilot and find out if he or she saw you. Explain to them that the close proximity situation they created made you feel unsafe. The proper response from that pilot should be to accept your concern and agree to try not to repeat it.
> 2- Use the "safety box". This brings your concern to the attention of the contest organizers. A pattern of complaints about an individual will result in discussion with the offending pilot. Note some CD's, myself being one of those, would prefer to hear directly from the concerned pilot so they can better understand what occured.
> 3- There is disciplinary action for pilots involved in mid air collisions.. For them, the flight end right there- mostly to encourage the decision to land promptly and safely. Damage to the glider usually can be expected to serve as any required additional punishment.
> The goal is for all of us to act in a sportsmanlike manner so we can all enjoy our sport.
> Nice video and a good discussion point. Expect to be asked to discuss this topic at an upcoming safety talk.
> UH

This did look close. Moreover, his path seems to go straight through
your circle rather than join on the perimeter. It is likely the other
pilot did not see you.

I'm surprised to hear of more incidents at sports. In my experience
this is pretty rare.

Two more cents: It is worth reviewing the traces of such incidents.
Often the exact paths of the gliders are surprisingly different than
what we recall.

John Cochrane

[kirk.stant]

> On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 4:10:58 PM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote: Interesting PowerFLARM warning in at the 9:13 point of this video. The glider that bumped directly thru this thermal (about 20 ft. below me)...

Note that PowerFLARM did not give a collision warning (the display with dots for clock position and high/level/low indication). It warned of the presence of the converging glider, and gave direction/range/altitude info to facilitate visual pickup.

If you had missed the warning, and continued to turn, the other glider would most likely not have hit you (he was lower) and probably would have seen you as you showed your planform to him. Unless he was heads down reprogramming his task...

Excellent video - I hope a lot of non-believers see it!

Kirk
66

[Jim White[_3_]]

Sean, I guess you would get even more sympathy from other competition
pilots if you removed your cameras and spent more effort on flying safely
and lookout.

The massive amount of stuff you have stuck around your panel obscures your
view ahead, you rarely look out properly before making turns and levelling
out, and you seem to have a habit of flying thermals in the other pilots'
blind spot.

The problem with filming your flights (as I have done, and no longer do) is
that others are able to tell how well or badly you fly! The lesson I
learned from the exercise was to work harder on my lookout.

Did you see the other aircraft before it flarmed you? You had not looked in
that direction for a turn. As the other aircraft set off flarm, then he
would probably have been alerted to you even if he hadn't seen you at that
point. I doubt you were in great danger from the other pilot.

Jim

[Martin Smith[_2_]]

In addition to all the things that UH said, in UK contests we typically
have a pilot safety committee. This is 3 competitors deemed to be respected
and experienced, often senior instructors, and approved by a simple show of
hands at the beginning of the contest. Any issue like this can be brought
to their attention and the matter of genuine mistakes or safety concerns
can generally be resolved by chat and peer review. Normally a quiet, "mind
how you both go," works wonders all round and everybody learns from the
experience. Anything that turns out to be really bad can be escalated to
the comp organisers for possible penalty or official warning etc.

Personally I dislike folks barreling in to an established thermal and
causing me to take some precautionary action as you chose to do. As Jim
says, the other guy's flarm would have warned him about you and I think he
could have made a bit more effort on this occasion.

Martin N5

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

> Note that PowerFLARM did not give a collision warning (the display with dots for clock position and high/level/low indication). *It warned of the presence of the converging glider, and gave direction/range/altitude info to facilitate visual pickup.
>

If I understand things correctly, this means that in "stealth" mode,
neither of the two gliders would have had any indication of the
other's presence by flarm. An interesting observation for the parallel
flarm leeching thread

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 31, 2012 5:26:26 PM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:
> > Note that PowerFLARM did not give a collision warning (the display with dots for clock position and high/level/low indication). *It warned of the presence of the converging glider, and gave direction/range/altitude info to facilitate visual pickup. > If I understand things correctly, this means that in "stealth" mode, neither of the two gliders would have had any indication of the other's presence by flarm. An interesting observation for the parallel flarm leeching thread John Cochrane

Or maybe Flarm did not compute a collision solution and thus did not warn.
Repeating for the who knows how many'th time - Steath does not suppress collision warnings.
Sigh
UH

[Sean F (F2)]

Thanks! Appreciate the response. I think we need to add even more emphasis to this as not to scare new pilots. :-)

[Sean F (F2)]

Jim,

I did see this particular pilot coming basically all the way from the thermal behind me, a small gaggle maybe 4 miles back. I certainly do not see all of them, but in this case I saw him coming. I think he saw me, but its much easier to be aggressive when you have energy and can pick your spot to pull up in the circling gliders thermal. To him it probably felt fine. But for me I feel like a sitting duck as you do not know for sure if the guy see's you. If you keep going with your turn and loose sight, and he does not see me, the next thing I hear might be a massive bang. Scary stuff.

The FLARM warning was impressive in this case (as it usually is)! I am also blessed with 20/10 vision and a fairly intense desire to use it to the best of its ability.

In terms of vision obstructions, believe it or not, none of the equipment (FLARM portable, Nano or camera's) on the top of the panel are outside the panel or canopy structure from a viewing perspective. The Flarm is just touching it although the antenna's are in the canopy a bit. I have a long torso and my head is right at the top of the glider. Of course the PDA and a bit of the Colibri II obstruct some view for sure. Mainly the PDA.

Thanks for your input. I fully expect potential criticism. I have very thick skin. Its the best way to learn. For example, I received an email pointing out that I had a heavy left foot within minutes of posting the video for example!

A few more video's will be coming out of the next couple weeks.

Best,

Sean

[Sean F (F2)]

Thanks all for the thoughts. I think this is good stuff for people to see. Fun fun sport! Amazing!!!

For me its just a matter of learning what to expect and trying to get a bit more comfortable with lots of traffic. Rules of the road stuff.

On FLARM I am not sure I ever get the clock dial screen for some reason. But the threat on the screen was red and the Flarm was beeping at full volume. It was definitely what I would call a collision warning but maybe I am missing something. I know I have the latest software. But it is a portable and not a brick. Anyway, I thought I would clarify.

Best,

Sean

[Dan G[_2_]]

Looks to me that at about 4:28 in the video the situation is much too close for comfort: a glider is taking over from behind. He looks much closer than the other mentioned glider. The other pilot can not see our pilot since the fuselage in on the way. Our pilot can't see him since he is coming from behind. One small pull up or push over and.....
The other pilot must have tightened his turn to get into the center better, but shouldn't have done that close to our pilot.
Dan G

[Peter Scholz[_3_]]

Am 01.11.2012 02:25, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> ...
> On FLARM I am not sure I ever get the clock dial screen for some reason. But the threat on the screen was red and the Flarm was beeping at full volume. It was definitely what I would call a collision warning but maybe I am missing something. I know I have the latest software. But it is a portable and not a brick. Anyway, I thought I would clarify.
>
> Best,
>
> Sean
>

When you have NOT set "competion mode" (which is different from "stealth
mode") you'll get early warnings from FLARM: Beeps without the clock
dial. This is probably what you got. To my knowledge the volume is not
adjusted to the warning level, it is always constant.
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE

[Sean F (F2)]

Thanks Peter. Ill take a look at it with that info.

On Thursday, November 1, 2012 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, Peter Scholz wrote:
> Am 01.11.2012 02:25, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> > ...
>
> > On FLARM I am not sure I ever get the clock dial screen for some reason.. But the threat on the screen was red and the Flarm was beeping at full volume. It was definitely what I would call a collision warning but maybe I am missing something. I know I have the latest software. But it is a portable and not a brick. Anyway, I thought I would clarify.
>
> >
>
> > Best,
>
> >
>
> > Sean
>
> >
>
>
>
> When you have NOT set "competion mode" (which is different from "stealth
>
> mode") you'll get early warnings from FLARM: Beeps without the clock
>
> dial. This is probably what you got. To my knowledge the volume is not
>
> adjusted to the warning level, it is always constant.
>
> --
>
> Peter Scholz
>
> ASW24 JE