Kerry is a pilot?

[Toks Desalu]

I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry, a democrat, is a
certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying a plane in left seat.
There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a low
wing. Just wanted to share what I saw.

Toks Desalu

[Roger Long]

Yup.

Let's put someone in the White House who can talk sense to the Secret
Service and homeland security wackos about general aviation.

Pilots Database Search Result
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Name : KERRY, JOHN FORBES
Pilot's Address : 19 LOUISBURG SQ
BOSTON, MA, 02108-1202
FAA Region : New England
Date of Medical : Dec, 2003
Class of Medical : 2
Expiration : Dec, 2004
Pilot Certificates : Commercial Pilot
Airplane Single Engine Land
Airplane Single Engine Sea
Airplane Multiengine Land
Instrument Airplane
Glider Aero Tow (Private Pilot)



--
Roger Long
Toks Desalu > wrote in message
news:PnSQb.149453$na.246236@attbi_s04...
> I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry, a democrat, is
a
> certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying a plane in left seat.
> There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a
low
> wing. Just wanted to share what I saw.
>
> Toks Desalu
>
>

[Jim Fisher]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
> There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a
low
> wing.

Well, there's at least one redeeming quality. However, I think he's
probably a highwinger in drag. I just can't imagine him in the Whitehouse
at this moment in history any more than I could imagine Algore there.

--
Jim Fisher

[Gerry Preston]

Thanks for that info, Toks. Definitely raises my opinion of Kerry.

[Pilot Bob]

"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
> > There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a
> low
> > wing.
>
> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality. However, I think he's
> probably a highwinger in drag. I just can't imagine him in the
Whitehouse
> at this moment in history any more than I could imagine Algore there.

That's the problem we have these days. Everyone knows Bush was AWOL during
his National Guard days, and then he goes on to to wear a flight suit and
some people think he is a great leader. Today Ed Gillespie was just stunned
that anyone would say that about Bush.

But, it is the truth. Everyone knows it too.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Gerry Preston" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for that info, Toks. Definitely raises my opinion of Kerry.

It's amazing what people as the basis of picking their exalted leaders! :~(

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Gerry Preston
> wrote:

> Thanks for that info, Toks. Definitely raises my opinion of Kerry.

So, Kerry's voting record is consistent (or even occasionally)
supportive of aviation or GA?

--
Bob Noel

[Tarver Engineering]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Gerry Preston
> > wrote:
>
> > Thanks for that info, Toks. Definitely raises my opinion of Kerry.
>
> So, Kerry's voting record is consistent (or even occasionally)
> supportive of aviation or GA?

Kerry is a class warrier, what do you think?

[Jim Fisher]

"Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> That's the problem we have these days. Everyone knows Bush was AWOL during
> his National Guard days,

Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what happened.
However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or twenty in
my younger years, too.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html seems to be a fairly decent
accout of what actually happened but leave much to interpretation.

and then he goes on to to wear a flight suit and
> some people think he is a great leader.

'Cause he is . . . But history will have to be the final judge to that, I
reckon.

--
Jim Fisher

--

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> > That's the problem we have these days. Everyone knows Bush was AWOL
during
> > his National Guard days,
>
> Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
> responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what happened.
> However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or twenty
in
> my younger years, too.

It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill attendance was
optional.

>
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html seems to be a fairly
decent
> accout of what actually happened but leave much to interpretation.
>
> and then he goes on to to wear a flight suit and
> > some people think he is a great leader.
>
> 'Cause he is . . . But history will have to be the final judge to that, I
> reckon.

I think it is cool that the President got a little stick time.

[Henry Kisor]

Imagine again, Jim. A Reuters poll today had Kerry leading Bush 48 to 45 per
cent (the rest undecided) if the election was held tomorrow. November's a
long way away, though.


"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
> > There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a
> low
> > wing.
>
> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality. However, I think he's
> probably a highwinger in drag. I just can't imagine him in the
Whitehouse
> at this moment in history any more than I could imagine Algore there.
>
> --
> Jim Fisher
>
>

[Blue Thunder]

> I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry,
> a democrat, is a certified pilot,
--snip--

Are any of the other candidates currently or formerly pilots?

Clark
Dean
Edwards
Kucinich
LaRouche
Lieberman
Sharpton
Others?

(John F. Kennedy, Jr., at one time a potential democratic candidate
for almost any office, was a pilot, too. He and his wife died in a
plane crash off of Cape Cod (MA) in 1999.)







--
Sent by xanadoof from yahoo part from com
This is a spam protected message. Please answer with reference header.
Posted via http://www.usenet-replayer.com

[Tarver Engineering]

"Blue Thunder" > wrote in message
u...
> > I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry,
> > a democrat, is a certified pilot,
> --snip--
>
> Are any of the other candidates currently or formerly pilots?
>
> Clark
> Dean
> Edwards
> Kucinich
> LaRouche
> Lieberman
> Sharpton
> Others?
>
> (John F. Kennedy, Jr., at one time a potential democratic candidate
> for almost any office, was a pilot, too. He and his wife died in a
> plane crash off of Cape Cod (MA) in 1999.)

He shouldn't have been thinking about running for Senator from NY in 2000.
:)

[Pilot Bob]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
> > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what
happened.
> > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or twenty
> in
> > my younger years, too.
>
> It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill attendance
was
> optional.

Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's connections,
he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and even then
did not have the balls to meet his commitment. Now that may not mean much to
you, but to me it says a whole lot about character.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
news:khYQb.117895$sv6.636439@attbi_s52...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
> > > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what
happened.
> > > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or
twenty in
> > > my younger years, too.
> >
> > It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill attendance
was
> > optional.
>
> Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's
connections,
> he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and even
then
> did not have the balls to meet his commitment.

There were open slots in the ANG in Texas, for anyone elidgeable. When GW's
F-102 unit changed over to a new airplane, there was no way they were going
to pay to retrain a short timer. GW's job would have been to sit at a desk
doing nothing.

> Now that may not mean much to
> you, but to me it says a whole lot about character.

You telling a lie tells me something about your character, but I fail to see
how that reflects on anyone else.

[Roger Long]

Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President and
avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
--
Roger Long

Pilot Bob > wrote in message
news:khYQb.117895$sv6.636439@attbi_s52...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
> > > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what
> happened.
> > > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or
twenty
> > in
> > > my younger years, too.
> >
> > It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill attendance
> was
> > optional.
>
> Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's
connections,
> he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and even
then
> did not have the balls to meet his commitment. Now that may not mean much
to
> you, but to me it says a whole lot about character.
>
>

[John Gaquin]

"Henry Kisor" > wrote in message

> ....A Reuters poll today had Kerry leading Bush 48 to 45 per
> cent (the rest undecided) if the election was held tomorrow. November's a
> long way away, though.

This is pretty typical during an "out party" primary. All we've had on the
news for the last 4-6 weeks, and for the next 4-6 weeks, is nothing but
Democrat ads and speakers. There's a natural response to that showing in
the polls. It will melt back to reality as soon as coverage evens out once
again.

[Pilot Bob]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Henry Kisor" > wrote in message
>
> > ....A Reuters poll today had Kerry leading Bush 48 to 45 per
> > cent (the rest undecided) if the election was held tomorrow. November's
a
> > long way away, though.
>
> This is pretty typical during an "out party" primary. All we've had on
the
> news for the last 4-6 weeks, and for the next 4-6 weeks, is nothing but
> Democrat ads and speakers. There's a natural response to that showing in
> the polls. It will melt back to reality as soon as coverage evens out
once

However, that showing is very atypical for the days following a State of The
Union address. I think the Bush message is no longer resonating with the
public. Bush has always been big on talk but small on results.

[Bob Fry]

"Roger Long" m> writes:

> Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President and
> avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.

Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> "Roger Long" m> writes:
>
> > Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President and
> > avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
>
> Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
> manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.

Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.

Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?

[Pilot Bob]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
>
> Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?

Go ahead. Show your ignorance. Kerry was defined well before that.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Jim Fisher at
wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:

> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.

To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.
And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 5:18 PM:

>
> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Roger Long" m> writes:
>>
>>> Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President and
>>> avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
>>
>> Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
>> manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
>
> Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
>
> Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?

He'd still be a Forbes.

[John Gaquin]

"Pilot Bob" > wrote in message news:N4ZQb.118043
>
> .......big on talk but small on results.
>
>

I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. Look at the world
strategically, and consider the changes taking place.

[Stuart King]

Kerry hasn't flown a plane except for TV. He rides in his wife's Ketchup
jet. He has no clue what it's like to do battle in the airport terminals,
for hours of delays.

He will steal your life savings after you die, before your children get it.

He will add more tax to your already overtaxed income.

He will allow trial attorneys to ruin aviation and health insurance.

He used the F**k word on national TV, on purpose to appeal to young voters.

He does not behave in a presidential manor. (see above)

W may have flaws and a history, but he learned from that and changed (aka
grew up). He did serve too, and flew f4's.

W is an excellent administrator. He realizes he doesn't have to know it all,
but he surrounds himself with VERY wise advisors. This is what good leaders
do. No one can know it all.

W has handled well, the worst and biggest challenge to America to date
(except maybe Abe's civil war)

W has turned the Clinton economy disaster around.

The republican philosophy: self determination, individual freedom, lowers
taxes, less government, strong military is the only way this nation can
survive on a long term basis.

SK



"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Blue Thunder" > wrote in message
> u...
> > > I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry,

>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
news:Qm_Qb.118312$sv6.642842@attbi_s52...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> >
> > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
>
> Go ahead. Show your ignorance. Kerry was defined well before that.

Kerrey is a trophy spouse sent off to Washington; just like Boxer.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> wrote on 1/25/04 5:18 PM:
>
> >
> > "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> "Roger Long" m>
writes:
> >>
> >>> Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President
and
> >>> avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
> >>
> >> Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
> >> manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
> >
> > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> >
> > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
>
> He'd still be a Forbes.

On Kerrey's $2 million, not likely.

But Mrs. Heinz has $500,000,000 and that lets Kerrey mortgage their house
for $6.5 million and win Iowa.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Jim Fisher at
> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
>
> > Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
>
> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.
> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.

Except ther is no silver star.

[Michael 182]

"Stuart King" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> W has turned the Clinton economy disaster around.
>
Up to this one I was just going to say, oh well, we just disagree.

Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
disasterous. The Dem's used to be labeled "tax and spend". The Republicans,
under Bush, are the "borrow and spend" party. We can argue about whether
Bush has made America safer - personally I don't believe he has. But there
is no way to argue that he has an economic plan that is even remotely
acceptable to future generations.

Michael

[R.Hubbell]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:32:15 -0800 "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
> "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> news:khYQb.117895$sv6.636439@attbi_s52...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
> > > > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what
> happened.
> > > > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or
> twenty in
> > > > my younger years, too.
> > >
> > > It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill attendance
> was
> > > optional.
> >
> > Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's
> connections,
> > he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and even
> then
> > did not have the balls to meet his commitment.
>
> There were open slots in the ANG in Texas, for anyone elidgeable. When GW's

Eligible in that case meant you better be an quarterback or the son of a
rich man. Not just anyone got those slots. Everyone knew that then.
It's not been forgotten by a lot of people who had loved ones that died
serving their country. I won't forget either.


> F-102 unit changed over to a new airplane, there was no way they were going
> to pay to retrain a short timer. GW's job would have been to sit at a desk
> doing nothing.

Well at least you acknowledge that he decided he wasn't going to serve his country
because he got a boring desk job. Any way you slice it he did not fulfill his
responsibilities to his country. That's not someone I respect.



R. Hubbell
>
> > Now that may not mean much to
> > you, but to me it says a whole lot about character.
>
> You telling a lie tells me something about your character, but I fail to see
> how that reflects on anyone else.
>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:32:15 -0800 "Tarver Engineering" >
wrote:
>
> >
> > "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> > news:khYQb.117895$sv6.636439@attbi_s52...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk
some
> > > > > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what
happened.
> > > > > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or
twenty in
> > > > > my younger years, too.
> > > >
> > > > It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill
attendance was
> > > > optional.
> > >
> > > Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's
connections,
> > > he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and
even then
> > > did not have the balls to meet his commitment.
> >
> > There were open slots in the ANG in Texas, for anyone elidgeable. When
GW's
>
> Eligible in that case meant you better be an quarterback or the son of a
> rich man. Not just anyone got those slots. Everyone knew that then.
> It's not been forgotten by a lot of people who had loved ones that died
> serving their country. I won't forget either.

Anyone that wanted to join the Texas ANG could, excluding felons and the
children of Kluxers. In fact, most of the draft dodgers of the day could
have joined the Guard just by relocating to a State with open slots.

> > F-102 unit changed over to a new airplane, there was no way they were
going
> > to pay to retrain a short timer. GW's job would have been to sit at a
desk
> > doing nothing.
>
> Well at least you acknowledge that he decided he wasn't going to serve his
country
> because he got a boring desk job. Any way you slice it he did not fulfill
his
> responsibilities to his country. That's not someone I respect.

Sure he did, but Dean dodged the draft.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54...
>
> "Stuart King" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > W has turned the Clinton economy disaster around.
> >
> Up to this one I was just going to say, oh well, we just disagree.
>
> Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
> disasterous. The Dem's used to be labeled "tax and spend". The
Republicans,
> under Bush, are the "borrow and spend" party.

Reflation was an absolute necessity, otherwise America was headed into a
decade long downturn like Japan.

> We can argue about whether
> Bush has made America safer - personally I don't believe he has. But there
> is no way to argue that he has an economic plan that is even remotely
> acceptable to future generations.

If Gore were President he would have already apologised to the terrorists
for the second 9-11. Clinton/Gore facilitated al Qaeda's heroin
distribution in Bosnia and elsewhere.

[R.Hubbell]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 02:14:01 GMT "Stuart King" > wrote:



Dubya has signed every spending bill that has come across his desk.

He doesn't even read the newspaper.


> Kerry hasn't flown a plane except for TV. He rides in his wife's Ketchup
> jet. He has no clue what it's like to do battle in the airport terminals,
> for hours of delays.
>
> He will steal your life savings after you die, before your children get it.
>
> He will add more tax to your already overtaxed income.
>
> He will allow trial attorneys to ruin aviation and health insurance.
>
> He used the F**k word on national TV, on purpose to appeal to young voters.



This is funny!



>
> He does not behave in a presidential manor. (see above)


Well once he wins the election he'll live in a presidential manor.


>
> W may have flaws and a history, but he learned from that and changed (aka
> grew up). He did serve too, and flew f4's.


Flaws and history and soon he will be history.


>
> W is an excellent administrator. He realizes he doesn't have to know it all,
> but he surrounds himself with VERY wise advisors. This is what good leaders


He sourrounds himself with freaks like Karl Rove. Who is a hate monger.



> do. No one can know it all.
>
> W has handled well, the worst and biggest challenge to America to date
> (except maybe Abe's civil war)

He didn't handle it well at all. HE use it to settle some scores for his
Daddy.

>
> W has turned the Clinton economy disaster around.

That's also very funny.

>
> The republican philosophy: self determination, individual freedom, lowers
> taxes, less government, strong military is the only way this nation can
> survive on a long term basis.

Must be nice to live in your own little world. :)


R. Hubbell

>
> SK
>
>
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Blue Thunder" > wrote in message
> > u...
> > > > I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry,
>
> >
> >
>
>

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Tarver Engineering at
>> wrote on 1/25/04 5:18 PM:
>>
>>>
>>> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Roger Long" m>
> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President
> and
>>>>> avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
>>>> manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
>>>
>>> Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
>>>
>>> Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
>>
>> He'd still be a Forbes.
>
> On Kerrey's $2 million, not likely.
>
> But Mrs. Heinz has $500,000,000 and that lets Kerrey mortgage their house
> for $6.5 million and win Iowa.

Whoa, are you telling me that becoming President costs a lot of money? Dude,
get the heck out of Dodge!

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Jim Fisher at
>> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
>>
>>> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
>>
>> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.
>> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
>
> Except ther is no silver star.

Are you saying there's no such thing as a Silver Star, or that Kerry never
got one? In both cases you'd be wrong.

[R.Hubbell]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:53:09 -0600 "Jim Fisher" > wrote:

> "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> > That's the problem we have these days. Everyone knows Bush was AWOL during
> > his National Guard days,
>
> Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk some
> responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what happened.
> However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or twenty in
> my younger years, too.

Did you avoid fulfilling your swarn duties to your country? That goes far
beyond stupid.

So you think avoiding your swarn duties for your country is just a stupid
thing he did and it should be overlooked because he was young?

Sons of people with lots less money suffer much worse fate than being
thought of as young and stupid when they fail to fulfill their swarn
duties to their country.



R. Hubbell

>
> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/030411.html seems to be a fairly decent
> accout of what actually happened but leave much to interpretation.
>
> and then he goes on to to wear a flight suit and
> > some people think he is a great leader.
>
> 'Cause he is . . . But history will have to be the final judge to that, I
> reckon.
>
> --
> Jim Fisher
>
> --
>
>

[Pilot Bob]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> news:Qm_Qb.118312$sv6.642842@attbi_s52...
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> > >
> > > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
> >
> > Go ahead. Show your ignorance. Kerry was defined well before that.
>
> Kerrey is a trophy spouse sent off to Washington; just like Boxer.


Double ignorance. It is "Kerry", not "Kerrey".

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
>
> >
> > "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> >> wrote on 1/25/04 5:18 PM:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>>> "Roger Long" m>
> > writes:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President
> > and
> >>>>> avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
> >>>>
> >>>> Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
> >>>> manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
> >>>
> >>> Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> >>>
> >>> Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
> >>
> >> He'd still be a Forbes.
> >
> > On Kerrey's $2 million, not likely.
> >
> > But Mrs. Heinz has $500,000,000 and that lets Kerrey mortgage their
house
> > for $6.5 million and win Iowa.
>
> Whoa, are you telling me that becoming President costs a lot of money?
Dude,
> get the heck out of Dodge!

Mrs. Heinz wants to buy the Whitehouse.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
>
> >
> > "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> in article , Jim Fisher at
> >> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
> >>
> >>> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
> >>
> >> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
Hearts.
> >> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
> >
> > Except ther is no silver star.
>
> Are you saying there's no such thing as a Silver Star, or that Kerry never
> got one? In both cases you'd be wrong.

Kerrey was put in for a silver star and awarded bronze.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
news:Gm%Qb.118732$5V2.617458@attbi_s53...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> > news:Qm_Qb.118312$sv6.642842@attbi_s52...
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> > > >
> > > > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
> > >
> > > Go ahead. Show your ignorance. Kerry was defined well before that.
> >
> > Kerrey is a trophy spouse sent off to Washington; just like Boxer.

> Double ignorance. It is "Kerry", not "Kerrey".

Kerry is a trophy spouse sent off to Washington; just like Boxer.

Feel better now?

Mrs. Heinz wants to buy the Whitehouse.

>
>

[Rich]

According to this article, he flies N5PJ, a Cessna 421:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_0601.html

Rich

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message news:<PnSQb.149453$na.246236@attbi_s04>...
> I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry, a democrat, is a
> certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying a plane in left seat.
> There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a low
> wing. Just wanted to share what I saw.
>
> Toks Desalu

[Peter]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
>>
>>
>>>"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>in article , Jim Fisher at
wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
>>>>
>>>>To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
>
> Hearts.
>
>>>>And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
>>>
>>>Except ther is no silver star.
>>
>>Are you saying there's no such thing as a Silver Star, or that Kerry never
>>got one? In both cases you'd be wrong.
>
>
> Kerrey was put in for a silver star and awarded bronze.

According to CNN (and numerous other sources), Kerry has been awarded both
distinctions:
"It was in 1971 that Kerry, then 27, appeared before the Senate Foreign
Relations Committee to speak out against U.S. policy in Vietnam.

His stance drew attention both because of his military record -- he had
served as an officer in the Navy and had been awarded a Silver Star, Bronze
Star and three Purple hearts ..."
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/president/candidates/kerry.html

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 6:59 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Tarver Engineering at
>> wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
>>
>>>
>>> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> in article , Tarver Engineering at
>>>> wrote on 1/25/04 5:18 PM:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> "Roger Long" m>
>>> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President
>>> and
>>>>>>> avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
>>>>>> manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
>>>>
>>>> He'd still be a Forbes.
>>>
>>> On Kerrey's $2 million, not likely.
>>>
>>> But Mrs. Heinz has $500,000,000 and that lets Kerrey mortgage their
> house
>>> for $6.5 million and win Iowa.
>>
>> Whoa, are you telling me that becoming President costs a lot of money?
> Dude,
>> get the heck out of Dodge!
>
> Mrs. Heinz wants to buy the Whitehouse.

I got news for you-- ALL the candidates want to do that, and whoever wins,
whether it's Bush, Kerry or someone else, will have done exactly that.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 6:59 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Tarver Engineering at
>> wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
>>
>>>
>>> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> in article , Jim Fisher at
>>>> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
>>>>
>>>> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
> Hearts.
>>>> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
>>>
>>> Except ther is no silver star.
>>
>> Are you saying there's no such thing as a Silver Star, or that Kerry never
>> got one? In both cases you'd be wrong.
>
> Kerrey was put in for a silver star and awarded bronze.

He was awarded both. This is easily verified.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> wrote on 1/25/04 6:59 PM:
> >> Whoa, are you telling me that becoming President costs a lot of money?
> > Dude,
> >> get the heck out of Dodge!
> >
> > Mrs. Heinz wants to buy the Whitehouse.
>
> I got news for you-- ALL the candidates want to do that, and whoever wins,
> whether it's Bush, Kerry or someone else, will have done exactly that.

Kerry is the only one with $6.5 million of his own money on the table.
(wife's money) The rest of the pack has enough doner support to avoid that.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Peter" > wrote in message
news:LA%Qb.152462$na.260922@attbi_s04...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>in article , Tarver Engineering at
> wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
> >>
> >>
> >>>"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>>
> >>>>in article , Jim Fisher at
> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
> >>>>
> >>>>To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
> >
> > Hearts.
> >
> >>>>And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
> >>>
> >>>Except ther is no silver star.
> >>
> >>Are you saying there's no such thing as a Silver Star, or that Kerry
never
> >>got one? In both cases you'd be wrong.
> >
> >
> > Kerrey was put in for a silver star and awarded bronze.
>
> According to CNN (and numerous other sources), Kerry has been awarded both
> distinctions:
> "It was in 1971 that Kerry, then 27, appeared before the Senate Foreign
> Relations Committee to speak out against U.S. policy in Vietnam.

My mistake then.

Kerry sounds a lot like Davis.

[Robert L. Bass]

You guys are giving both Kerry and W bad names...

[Tarver Engineering]

"Robert L. Bass" > wrote in message
news:Vz0Rb.152987$na.262141@attbi_s04...
> You guys are giving both Kerry and W bad names...

That is what mud slinging does.

Did you think that trashing GW would go unchallenged?

[Big John]

Following is making the rounds on Internet.

Quote

On the campaign trail, White House wannabe Sen John Forbes Kerry
regularly mentions his Vietnam War combat experience, during which he
received three purple hearts, the Silver Star and Bronze Star. However
the Massachusetts Democrat doesn't like to talk much about how he
received the awards or the time after he returned home when he was
rubbing shoulders with Hanoi Jane Fonda as a much-celebrated organizer
for one of America's most radical pro-communist groups.

Kerry's betrayal of American prisoners of war, his blatant disrespect
for Vietnam veterans and the military, his support for communist
Vietnam and his waffling over the issue of use of force in Iraq proves
he cannot be relied on to protect the best interests of the United
States. Although Kerry voted to support military intervention in Iraq
he is now claiming that he only approved the threat of force by the
United States. The Constitution for the United States of America
states: "The President shall be Commander-in-Chief of the Army and
Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States
when called into the actual service of the United States; he may
require the opinion, in writing, of the principal officer in each of
the executive departments, upon any subject relating to the duties of
their respective offices, and he shall have power to grant reprieves
and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of
impeachment". Read the following and decide for yourself if you trust
this man to be our Command-in-chief.

John Forbes Kerry was born, December 11, 1943, well connected in the
upper class due to his Forbes and Winthrop roots.

As a youth, Kerry is said to have idolized John F Kennedy, with whom
he and his family socialized. Kerry, often alluded to having the same
initials as President Kennedy,

Kerry graduated from Yale University in 1966.

Like JFK, who served in a WWII patrol boat, PT 109, Jerry took to the
water. He enlisted in the Navy and became an Officer.

After training, Kerry volunteered for VN. He served a relatively
uneventful six months, far removed from combat, from December 1967 to
June 1968, in the electrical department aboard the USS Gridley, a
guided-missle frigate that supported aircraft carriers in the Gulf of
Tonkin.

His ship returned to its Long Beach, CA, port on June 6, 1968. Five
months later, Kerry went back to VN, securing an assignment as "swift
boat" skipper.

Kerry commanded his first swift boat, No 44, from December 1968
through January 1969. He received no medals while serving on this
craft.

Kerry experienced his first intense combat action n Dec 2, 1968. He
was slightly wounded on his arm, earning his first Purple Heart.

In late January 1969, Kerry joined a five-man crew on swift boat No 94
completing 18 missions over 48 days, almost all of them in the Mekong
Delta.

Kerry earned his second Purple Heart after sustaining a minor
shrapnel would in his left thigh on Feb 20, 1969.

Kerry was given a Silver Star for an action on Feb 28, 1969: When
Kerry's Patrol Craft 94 received a B-40 rocket shot from shore, he
beached his craft in the center of the enemy positions and a enemy
soldier sprang up from a hole not ten feet from Patrol Craft 94 and
fled. The boats machine gunner hit and wounded the fleeing VC as he
darted behind a hootch. The twin 50's gunner also fired at the VC. He
said he "laid 50 rounds" into the hootch before Kerry leaped from the
boat and dashed in to administer a "coupe de grace" to the wounded VC.
Kerry returned with a B-40 round and launcher.

Kerry received a Silver Star at An Thoi Feb 28, 1969

On March 13 1969, a mine detonated near Kerry's boat, slightly
wounding Kerry in his right arm. He was awarded his third Purple
Heart.

After his third Purple Heart Kerry requested to be sent home. Navy
rules, he pointed out, allowed a thrice-wounded soldier to return to
the US immediately. His commander filled out a document March 17, 1969
that said Kerry had been thrice wounded in action while on active duty
in-country VN. Reassignment is requested.... as a personal aide in
Boston, NYC or Washington, DC.

Having engineered an early transfer out of the conflict because of
his three Purple Hearts, Kerry returned home to a sweet assignment as
an admiral's aide in April 1969.

In Oct 1969, Kerry began to associate with anti-war protester, Adam
Walinsky, a former speech writer for Robert Kennedy.

On Jan 3, 1970, Kerry requested that his superior grant him early
discharge from the Navy so he could run for Congress.

Kerry , a highly decorated veteran who seemed to be a clone of former
President JFK, right down to the military service on a patrol boat,
made a 1970 bid for Congress in Massachusetts' Third District.
Three-months later, when it became clear his opponent would get the
Democratic Party nomination Kerry dropped out.

Realizing that running for public office in Eastern Massachusetts as a
decorated VN veteran was not at that time politically correct, Kerry
moved hard left, seeking a leadership position in VN Veterans Against
the War (VVAW), a rabid pro-communisst veterans organization.

As a national leader of VVAW, Kerry campaigned against the effort of
the US to contain the spread of Communism. He used the blood of
servicemen still in the field for his own political advancement by
claiming that their blood was shed unnecessarily or in vain. Under
Kerry's leadership, VVAW members mocked the uniform of US soldiers by
wearing tattered fatigues marked with pro communist graffiti. He
dishonored America by marching in demonstrations under the flag of the
VC.

Kerry organized one of the most confrontational protests of the entire
VN War called Dewey Canyon III. It began April 18, 1971, with nearly
1000 VN vets gathered in the Washington, DC mall for what they called
"a limited incursion into the country of Congress".

On April 23,1971, Kerry led members of VVAW in a protest during which
they threw their medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the US
Capital.

At a jammed Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing on April 23,
1971, Kerry took his case to Congress. With television cameras lining
the walls and Kerry dressed in his green fatigues decorated with his
Silver star ribbons, he gave testimony that defined him and made
possible his political career. In a style reminiscent of JFK, Kerry
asked, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in VN -- How do
you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?"

Much of Kerry's speech before Congress painted his fellow GI's as so
brutal that, today, they could easily be mistaken for Saddam Hussein's
Fedayeen killers. He told Congress that US soldiers had "personally
raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable
telephones to human genitals and turned the power up, cut off limbs,
blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot
cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generaly ravaged the
countryside of South VN.

By the following day, April 24, the publicity from the 22nd and 23rd
helped draw at least 250,000 people to the Mall in a massive protest.
Kerry, wearing his combat jacket addressed the rally from the Capital
steps. In less than a week, Kerry was transformed from little-known
former swift boat skipper to a national icon for a movement that
advocated against US involvement in VN and for the communist
Vietnamese.

Several weeks latter, Kerry was featured on 60 minutes. Correspondent
Morley Safer, in the segment, portrayed Kerry as an eloquent man who
has a "Kennedyesque" future. "Do you want to be president of the
United States?" Safer ask Kerry.

Vice President Agnew said that Kerry, who drew rave notices in the
media for his eloquent testimony before Congress, was using material
ghosted for him by a former Kennedy speech writer (Adam Walinsky).

During Memorial Day weekend, he joined a throng of antiwar protesters
on the green in Lexington, Mass., where he and hundreds of others were
arrested.

Kerry ran for election to the US House in 1972 during which he found
it necessary to suppress reproduction of the cover of his own book,
The New Soldier. His political opponent pointed out that it depicted
several unkempt youths crudely handling an American Flag to mock the
famous photo of the US Marines at Iwo Jima.

He graduated from Boston College Law School in 1976, then worked as an
Assistant District Attorney in Middlesex county

He was elected Lt Governor in 1982.

Elected Junior US Senate in 1984 with the help of Ted Kennedy..

Am advise there is more to come.............................We'll see.

Big John


On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 16:44:31 GMT, "Toks Desalu"
> wrote:

>I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry, a democrat, is a
>certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying a plane in left seat.
>There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a low
>wing. Just wanted to share what I saw.
>
>Toks Desalu
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Roger Long" m>
writes:
> >
> > > Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President
and
> > > avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
> >
> > Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
> > manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
>
> Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
>
> Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
>
And where would Teddy Kennedy, or the rest of the clan, be without his dad's
mafia connections?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Jim Fisher at
> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
>
> > Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
>
> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts.
> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.


Well, John McCain has the Navy Cross (I believe), but I wouldn't/didn't vote
for him.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > in article , Jim Fisher at
> > wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
> >
> > > Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
> >
> > To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
Hearts.
> > And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
>
> Except ther is no silver star.
>
???

No, Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, and a Bronze Star with "V" device.

All that said does not equal credibility.

Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to our
Distinguished Service Cross.

Big Whoop!!

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Roger Long" m>
> writes:
> > >
> > > > Not only that, he used his father's connections to become President
> and
> > > > avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
> > >
> > > Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer mid-level
> > > manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
> >
> > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> >
> > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
> >
> And where would Teddy Kennedy, or the rest of the clan, be without his
dad's
> mafia connections?

Boot legging Alcohol has been good for the Kennedys and the Clintons.
(Blythes) Those four Counties Hillary carried were all old bootlegger
money.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
> > in article , Tarver Engineering at
> > wrote on 1/25/04 6:21 PM:
> >
> > >
> > > "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >> in article , Jim Fisher at
> > >> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
> > >>
> > >>> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
> > >>
> > >> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
> Hearts.
> > >> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
> > >
> > > Except ther is no silver star.
> >
> > Are you saying there's no such thing as a Silver Star, or that Kerry
never
> > got one? In both cases you'd be wrong.
>
> Kerrey was put in for a silver star and awarded bronze.
>
Nope; he had both.

[Tom Sixkiller]

> "Peter" > wrote in message
> news:LA%Qb.152462$na.260922@attbi_s04...
> >
> > According to CNN (and numerous other sources), Kerry has been awarded
both
> > distinctions:
> > "It was in 1971 that Kerry, then 27, appeared before the Senate Foreign
> > Relations Committee to speak out against U.S. policy in Vietnam.

And that testimony is going to be a part of his downfall when it gets
thoroughly analyzed during the later campaign.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54...
> >
> > "Stuart King" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > >
> > > W has turned the Clinton economy disaster around.
> > >
> > Up to this one I was just going to say, oh well, we just disagree.
> >
> > Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
> > disasterous. The Dem's used to be labeled "tax and spend". The
> Republicans,
> > under Bush, are the "borrow and spend" party.
>
> Reflation was an absolute necessity, otherwise America was headed into a
> decade long downturn like Japan.

www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1363

http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?record=298&month=12

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> > news:SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54...
> > >
> > > "Stuart King" > wrote in message
> > > . com...
> > > >
> > > > W has turned the Clinton economy disaster around.
> > > >
> > > Up to this one I was just going to say, oh well, we just disagree.
> > >
> > > Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
> > > disasterous. The Dem's used to be labeled "tax and spend". The
> > Republicans,
> > > under Bush, are the "borrow and spend" party.
> >
> > Reflation was an absolute necessity, otherwise America was headed into a
> > decade long downturn like Japan.
>
> www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1363

Except reflation has worked this time.

What fails is Socialism as Reflation. Under that condition you get a
permanent Depression; like FDR.

> http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?record=298&month=12

Your second article misses the point entirely. Japan was willing to lend
money, but unwilling to accept imports. That combination makes it nearly
impossible to pay back Yen. Dollars are easy to earn and pay back.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Roger Long" m>
> > writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Not only that, he used his father's connections to become
President
> > and
> > > > > avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer
mid-level
> > > > manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
> > >
> > > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> > >
> > > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
> > >
> > And where would Teddy Kennedy, or the rest of the clan, be without his
> dad's
> > mafia connections?
>
> Boot legging Alcohol has been good for the Kennedys and the Clintons.
> (Blythes) Those four Counties Hillary carried were all old bootlegger
> money.

Not to mention his control over sugar rationing during WW2...and how some
"buddies" got favors that helped out a lot during the '60 election :~)

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Bob Fry" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > "Roger Long" m>
> > > writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Not only that, he used his father's connections to become
> President
> > > and
> > > > > > avoid having to get a real job after being Governor of Texas.
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly. Without the connections Bush II would be a boozer
> mid-level
> > > > > manager in some rinky-dink company in middle Texas.
> > > >
> > > > Just another wild cat closer out of Midland.
> > > >
> > > > Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
> > > >
> > > And where would Teddy Kennedy, or the rest of the clan, be without his
> > dad's
> > > mafia connections?
> >
> > Boot legging Alcohol has been good for the Kennedys and the Clintons.
> > (Blythes) Those four Counties Hillary carried were all old bootlegger
> > money.
>
> Not to mention his control over sugar rationing during WW2...and how some
> "buddies" got favors that helped out a lot during the '60 election :~)

And someone said, "crime doesn't pay". :)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > > >
> > > > Up to this one I was just going to say, oh well, we just disagree.
> > > >
> > > > Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies
are
> > > > disasterous. The Dem's used to be labeled "tax and spend". The
> > > Republicans,
> > > > under Bush, are the "borrow and spend" party.
> > >
> > > Reflation was an absolute necessity, otherwise America was headed into
a
> > > decade long downturn like Japan.
> >
> > www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1363
>
> Except reflation has worked this time.

Worked? It's preventing the re-alignment that the economy desperately
needs.


>
> What fails is Socialism as Reflation. Under that condition you get a
> permanent Depression; like FDR.
>
> > http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?record=298&month=12
>
> Your second article misses the point entirely. Japan was willing to lend
> money, but unwilling to accept imports. That combination makes it nearly
> impossible to pay back Yen. Dollars are easy to earn and pay back.

No, you're missing the point. It's not imports/exports or any such that
stomped Japan and keep them in the economic sewer for a dozen years.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > Up to this one I was just going to say, oh well, we just disagree.
> > > > >
> > > > > Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies
are
> > > > > disasterous. The Dem's used to be labeled "tax and spend". The
Republicans,
> > > > > under Bush, are the "borrow and spend" party.
> > > >
> > > > Reflation was an absolute necessity, otherwise America was headed
into a
> > > > decade long downturn like Japan.
> > >
> > > www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1363
> >
> > Except reflation has worked this time.
>
> Worked? It's preventing the re-alignment that the economy desperately
> needs.

The only thing preventing a realignment of the economy is Japan's heavy
intervention in currency markets. The EU proclaimed their intent to
intervene to stop the dollar realignment last week.

> > What fails is Socialism as Reflation. Under that condition you get a
> > permanent Depression; like FDR.
> >
> > > http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?record=298&month=12
> >
> > Your second article misses the point entirely. Japan was willing to
lend
> > money, but unwilling to accept imports. That combination makes it
nearly
> > impossible to pay back Yen. Dollars are easy to earn and pay back.
>
> No, you're missing the point. It's not imports/exports or any such that
> stomped Japan and keep them in the economic sewer for a dozen years.

Sure it is. Japan went out and loaned a lot of Yen in Asia and made it
impossible to pay Yen back. That was way dumb.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> > No, you're missing the point. It's not imports/exports or any such that
> > stomped Japan and keep them in the economic sewer for a dozen years.
>
> Sure it is. Japan went out and loaned a lot of Yen in Asia and made it
> impossible to pay Yen back. That was way dumb.

That's not what got Japan in trouble.

http://www.mises.org/fullarticle.asp?record=322&month=13
Japan Can't Inflate Away Its Woes
by JEFFREY HERBENER

[From the Asian Wall Street Journal;
October 28, 1999, Page 10;

[Excerpt]
Economists have been counseling inflation to cure Japan's ills, while
warning of the grave dangers of deflation. This is sheer nonsense. Nothing
apart from war has damaged economic prosperity in the 20th century as much
as the loose money and credit policies of the world's central banks, from
Germany in the 1920s to China in the 1940s, to various South American
countries in the 1980s, to Indonesia and Yugoslavia in the 1990s.

It is precisely because of these policies that Japan now finds itself in the
midst of a financial debacle. Having inflated the yen money stock by 10.5%
per year from 1986-90, and having brought the discount rate down to 0.5% in
1997 from 6% in 1991, the Bank of Japan essentially inflated the nation into
an artificial boom. Rather than allow this boom to be corrected, however,
economists are calling for even more of what caused it. The alternative --
deflation -- is deemed such a fearsome enemy that even perpetual
central-bank monetary inflation is an acceptable defense against it. There
are two schools of thought with explanations why this should be so.

[End Excerpt]


Also

Explaining Japan's Recession
by Benjamin Powell
[ December 3, 2002]

After decades of "miracle" economic growth since World War II, Japan's
economy abruptly faltered in 1990 and has stagnated since. Why? Neither the
Keynesian nor Monetarist explanations can provide an account. Only the
Austrian theory of the business cycle provides the explanation.

An Overview of Japan's Economy 1985–2000

After the September 1985 Plaza Accord, the yen's appreciation hit the export
sector hard, reducing economic growth from 4.4 percent in 1985 to 2.9
percent in 1986 (EIU 2001).1 The government attempted to offset the stronger
yen by drastically easing monetary policy between January 1986 and February
1987. During this period, the Bank of Japan (BOJ) cut the discount rate in
half from 5 percent to 2.5 percent. Following the economic stimulus, asset
prices in the real estate and stock markets inflated, creating one of the
biggest financial bubbles in history. The government responded by tightening
monetary policy, raising rates five times, to 6 percent in 1989 and 1990.
After these increases, the market collapsed.

[End Excerpt]

IOW it was the attempts at relation that wreck the Yen, and had virtually
nothing to do with exports/imports. Note that their crisis, particularly
Real Estate, is strictly domestic.

But let's take this to an appropriate group; not here.

[Cub Driver]

>Everyone knows Bush was AWOL

I don't know that, and I researched it as well as I could online. See
www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm for what is known on this
interesting subject.

(Readers have since drawn a couple items to my attention, which will
be added when I update the site on Feb 1. I'll be happy to take your
order as well, if you have anything documented to add.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?

Faced with actually paying off that mortgage on his house :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Wdtabor]

>
>>Then again, where would Kerry be without catsup?
>
>Faced with actually paying off that mortgage on his house :)
>

I find the most interesting thing about the Iowa caucus for the "Party of the
Little Guy" is that the finish was in exact descending order of of personal net
worth.

Welcome to the wonderful world of McCain-Fiengold Campaign Reform, where only
the personally deep pockets have a chance.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Morgans]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Everyone knows Bush was AWOL
>
> I don't know that, and I researched it as well as I could online. See
> www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm for what is known on this
> interesting subject.
>
> (Readers have since drawn a couple items to my attention, which will
> be added when I update the site on Feb 1. I'll be happy to take your
> order as well, if you have anything documented to add.)
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford


Well done
--
Jim in NC

[Dennis O'Connor]

Along this same topic, notice the interesting article in this mornings Wall
Street Journal, 26 January, page A14 by Stephen Sherman, who points out that
before being elected, Mr. Kerry joined the Vietnam Veterans against The War,
and publicly "threw his medals at the capital building in protest", and that
now those same supposed medals are prominently displayed on his office wall
in Washington... hmmmm...
denny

"Cub Driver" > wrote in > >Everyone knows Bush was
AWOL
>
> I don't know that, and I researched it as well as I could online. See
> www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm for what is known on this
> interesting subject.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > No, you're missing the point. It's not imports/exports or any such
that
> > > stomped Japan and keep them in the economic sewer for a dozen years.
> >
> > Sure it is. Japan went out and loaned a lot of Yen in Asia and made it
> > impossible to pay Yen back. That was way dumb.
>
> That's not what got Japan in trouble.

They are still argueing exchange rates, but exchange rates for the Yen are
driven by the unavilability to pay back Yen. The cycle is direcly driven by
protectionism and the banks incestual relationship with business in Japan.

[David Brooks]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...

> If Gore were President he would have already apologised to the terrorists
> for the second 9-11.

We'll never know, will we?

YOUR GUY WON! GET OVER IT!!!!!!

-- David Brooks

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > No, you're missing the point. It's not imports/exports or any such
> that
> > > > stomped Japan and keep them in the economic sewer for a dozen years.
> > >
> > > Sure it is. Japan went out and loaned a lot of Yen in Asia and made
it
> > > impossible to pay Yen back. That was way dumb.
> >
> > That's not what got Japan in trouble.
>
> They are still argueing exchange rates, but exchange rates for the Yen are
> driven by the unavilability to pay back Yen. The cycle is direcly driven
by
> protectionism and the banks incestual relationship with business in Japan.
>
You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do with ability
to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > If Gore were President he would have already apologised to the
terrorists
> > for the second 9-11.
>
> We'll never know, will we?
>
> YOUR GUY WON! GET OVER IT!!!!!!
>

That's interesting -- usually it's the other way around; "Your guy LOST, get
over it!".


We have, however, been hearing much less of it ever since GW's "amnesty". It
has brought about the analysts who are now showing pretty well that Gore's
550,000 vote "majority" is sullied by somewhere between 2.2 million* and 3.8
million illegal alien votes.

* - based on estimates of usage of other government service by IA's.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...

<snip>
> You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do with
ability
> to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.

Your rescources describe a symptom as the cause, but it is the failure to
allow imports by both the National Government of Japan and the Japanese
People that is the failure of their reflation plan. If you are going to
loan Yen, then it must be possible allow your borrowerto earn Yen to repay
the loan; otherwise Yen must be purchased for dollars at the end of term and
the borrower is bankrupted.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> <snip>
> > You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do with
> ability
> > to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.
>
> Your rescources describe a symptom as the cause, but it is the failure to
> allow imports by both the National Government of Japan and the Japanese
> People that is the failure of their reflation plan. If you are going to
> loan Yen, then it must be possible allow your borrowerto earn Yen to repay
> the loan; otherwise Yen must be purchased for dollars at the end of term
and
> the borrower is bankrupted.
>
Nice, but that has virtually NOTHING to do with exchange rates.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> >
> > <snip>
> > > You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do with
> > ability
> > > to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.
> >
> > Your rescources describe a symptom as the cause, but it is the failure
to
> > allow imports by both the National Government of Japan and the Japanese
> > People that is the failure of their reflation plan. If you are going to
> > loan Yen, then it must be possible allow your borrowerto earn Yen to
repay
> > the loan; otherwise Yen must be purchased for dollars at the end of term
and
> > the borrower is bankrupted.
> >
> Nice, but that has virtually NOTHING to do with exchange rates.

Buy Yen with dollars, what happens to exchange rates?

Borrow dollars, sell goods for dollars and pay back dollars is possible.
All the Japanese did in their "reflation" was bankrupt their banks and now
they can't afford to write off all the bad paper.

[Corky Scott]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:45:05 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>> "Peter" > wrote in message
>> news:LA%Qb.152462$na.260922@attbi_s04...
>> >
>> > According to CNN (and numerous other sources), Kerry has been awarded
>both
>> > distinctions:
>> > "It was in 1971 that Kerry, then 27, appeared before the Senate Foreign
>> > Relations Committee to speak out against U.S. policy in Vietnam.
>
>And that testimony is going to be a part of his downfall when it gets
>thoroughly analyzed during the later campaign.

Why might that be?

Corky Scott

[Jim Fisher]

"R.Hubbell" > wrote in message

> Did you avoid fulfilling your swarn duties to your country?

No, I never had any "swarn" dities to my country . . . Except for paying
taxes, I reckon. I've never avoided them but I damn sure don't like 'em.
Does that count?

> So you think avoiding your swarn duties for your country is just a stupid
> thing he did and it should be overlooked because he was young?

Yeah, that pretty much states it. He kinda made up for it by serving as
Commander in Chief . . . In my book, anyway.

Are you the same person you were when you were in your teens-twenties? I
damn sure am not. Besides, it not like he took of to Canada.

> Sons of people with lots less money suffer much worse fate than being
> thought of as young and stupid when they fail to fulfill their swarn
> duties to their country.

It's not nice to swarn, by the way.

--
Jim Fisher

[Doug Carter]

In article <SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54>, Michael 182 says...
>
>
>"Stuart King" > wrote in message
. com...
....
>Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
>disasterous.

Rescuing the economy from the collapse of the Clinton bubble has not been easy
but is well underway. We are in, I think, the third consecutive highest growth
quarter in twenty years and the employment rate is over 94% and increasing.

The presidential candidates are desperate to link Iraq and Vietnam because they
know that by summer no amount of rhetoric will be able to mask the strength and
breadth of the economic recovery.

[Dan Luke]

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
>
> No, Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, and a Bronze Star with
> "V" device.
>
> All that said does not equal credibility.
>
> Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
> our Distinguished Service Cross.
>
> Big Whoop!!

I'm sure many U. S. veterans who hold these decorations would be
gratified to see your equating them with Hitler's giving himself the
Iron Cross. No doubt they would enjoy your "big whoop" comment WRT these
honors, as well.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> before being elected, Mr. Kerry joined the Vietnam Veterans against The
War,
> and publicly "threw his medals at the capital building in protest", and
that
> now those same supposed medals are prominently displayed on his office
wall
> in Washington... hmmmm...

Maybe he threw them right into the window of what would one day become his
very own office! Pure coincidence! It could happen!

[Stuart King]

"R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
...
>

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in
the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The
University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian
Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a
permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts
from the public treasury. >From that moment on, the majority always votes
for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury,
with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose
fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of
history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations
always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent
Presidential election:

Population of counties won by:

Gore=127 million

Bush=143 million

Square miles of land won by:

Gore=580,000

Bush=2,2427,000

States won by:

Gore=19

Bush=29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:

Gore=13.2

Bush=2.1

Professor Olson adds:

"In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned
by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory
encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living
off government welfare..."

Olson believes the U.S. is now somewhere between the "apathy" and
"complacency" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy; with some
40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the
"governmental dependency" phase.

Pass this along.

[Carrie Seddon]

Conduct Unbecoming
Kerry doesn't deserve Vietnam vets' support.

BY STEPHEN SHERMAN Guest to the Wall Street Journal
Monday, January 26, 2004

A turning point may have been reached in the Iowa caucuses when Special
Forces Lt. James Rassmann came forward to thank John Kerry for saving his life
in Vietnam. Although Mr. Rassmann, like most of my veteran friends, is a
Republican, he said that he'd vote for Mr. Kerry. I don't know if the incident
influenced the caucus results. But I took special interest in the story
because Jim served in my unit.

Service in Vietnam is an important credential to me. Many felt that such
service was beneath them, and removed themselves from the manpower pool. That
Mr. Kerry served at all is a reason for a bond with fellow veterans; that his
service earned him a Bronze Star for Valor ("for personal bravery") and a
Silver Star ("for gallantry") is even more compelling. Unfortunately, Mr.
Kerry came home to Massachusetts, the one state George McGovern carried in
1972. He joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and emceed the Winter
Soldier Investigation (both financed by Jane Fonda). Many veterans believe
these protests led to more American deaths, and to the enslavement of the
people on whose behalf the protests were ostensibly being undertaken. But
being a take-charge kind of guy, Mr. Kerry became a leader in the VVAW and
even testified before Congress on the findings of the Investigation, which he
accepted at face value.

In his book "Stolen Valor," B.G. Burkett points out that Mr. Kerry liberally
used phony veterans to testify to atrocities they could not possibly have
committed. Mr. Kerry later threw what he represented as his awards at the
Capitol in protest. But as the war diminished as a political issue, he left
the VVAW, which was a bit too radical for his political future, and was
ultimately elected to the Senate. After his awards were seen framed on his
office wall, he claimed to have thrown away someone else's medals--so now he
can reclaim his gallantry in Vietnam.

Mr. Kerry hasn't given me any reason to trust his judgment. As co-chairman
of the Senate investigating committee, he quashed a revealing inquiry into the
POW/MIA issue, and he supports trade initiatives with the Socialist Republic
of Vietnam while blocking any legislation requiring Hanoi to adhere to basic
human rights. I'm not surprised that there are veterans who support a VVAW
activist, if only because there are so few fellow veterans in politics.
Ideally, there'd be many more. If you are going to vote on military
appropriations, it would be nice if you didn't disrespect the soldiers.
Congress hasn't had the courage to declare war in more than 60 years, despite
numerous instances in which we have sent our military in harm's way. Of all
the "lessons of Vietnam," surely one is that America needs a leader capable of
demonstrating in himself, and encouraging in others, the resolve to finish
what they have collectively started.

But the bond between veterans has to be tempered in light of the
individual's record. Just as Mr. Kerry threw away medals only to claim them
back again, Sen. Kerry voted to take action against Iraq, but claims to take
that vote back by voting against funding the result. So I can understand my
former comrade-in-arms hugging the man who saved his life, but not the act of
choosing him for president out of gratitude. And I would hate to see anyone
giving Mr. Kerry a sympathy vote for president just because being a Vietnam
veteran is "back in style."
---
Mr. Sherman was a first lieutenant with the U.S. Army Fifth Special Forces
Group (Airborne) in Vietnam, 1967-68.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Carrie Seddon" > wrote in message
...
> Conduct Unbecoming
> Kerry doesn't deserve Vietnam vets' support.
>
> BY STEPHEN SHERMAN Guest to the Wall Street Journal
> Monday, January 26, 2004
>
> A turning point may have been reached in the Iowa caucuses when Special
> Forces Lt. James Rassmann came forward to thank John Kerry for saving his
life
> in Vietnam. Although Mr. Rassmann, like most of my veteran friends, is a
> Republican, he said that he'd vote for Mr. Kerry. I don't know if the
incident
> influenced the caucus results. But I took special interest in the story
> because Jim served in my unit.

I think it was the $6.5 million Kerry got from mortgaging Mrs. Heinz' house
that bought the Iowa cacuses for Kerry.

> Service in Vietnam is an important credential to me. Many felt that such
> service was beneath them, and removed themselves from the manpower pool.
That
> Mr. Kerry served at all is a reason for a bond with fellow veterans; that
his
> service earned him a Bronze Star for Valor ("for personal bravery") and a
> Silver Star ("for gallantry") is even more compelling.

More impressive was Representative Ford saying Kerry has 2 siver stars and a
bronze star on Fox this morning. :)

> Unfortunately, Mr.
> Kerry came home to Massachusetts, the one state George McGovern carried in
> 1972. He joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and emceed the Winter
> Soldier Investigation (both financed by Jane Fonda). Many veterans believe
> these protests led to more American deaths, and to the enslavement of the
> people on whose behalf the protests were ostensibly being undertaken. But
> being a take-charge kind of guy, Mr. Kerry became a leader in the VVAW and
> even testified before Congress on the findings of the Investigation, which
he
> accepted at face value.

Some South Viet Namese were literally sold into slavery, to pay the Soviet
Union for their support.

[Michael 182]

"Doug Carter" > wrote in message
...
> In article <SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54>, Michael 182 says...
> >
> >
> >"Stuart King" > wrote in message
> . com...
> ...
> >Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
> >disasterous.
>
> Rescuing the economy from the collapse of the Clinton bubble has not been
easy
> but is well underway. We are in, I think, the third consecutive highest
growth
> quarter in twenty years and the employment rate is over 94% and
increasing.
>

This head in the sand view is just astonishing. This isn't a
liberal/conservative thing. As much as you would like to blame Clinton for
the collapse (if you are a republican) or congratulate him for the boom (if
you are a democrat), the reality is no economic policy result is neatly
encapsulated within the political boundaries of a presidential term.

President Bush's current policy (combined with Congress) of creating massive
spending increases combined with tax cuts may, in some way, be linked to the
results of Clinton's policies. The question is does the deficit growth
policy make any sense? Sure, everyone knows it makes sense to borrow for a
good investment - but foreclosures and bankruptcies occur becasue the
investment doesn't always pan out.

I don't know macro economics very well, so I'll concede that there are many
parts to this I don't understand. The part I do understand, and that I was
taught from a young age, is pay your own way. Don't expect anyone to bail
you out. I don't see the current administration living that basic principle.

Michael

[Doug Carter]

Michael 182 wrote:
> This head in the sand view is just astonishing. This isn't a
> liberal/conservative thing. As much as you would like to blame Clinton for
> the collapse (if you are a republican) or congratulate him for the boom (if
> you are a democrat), the reality is no economic policy result is neatly
> encapsulated within the political boundaries of a presidential term.

Not sure what you mean by "This head in the sand view..." I agree that
economic cycles are not contained within any given presidential term but
the president does have some influence. Clinton could have encouraged
the SEC to enforce the existing securities laws and perhaps diminished
the enormous amount of money fleeced from individual stockholders by
investment banks; Bush could use his veto to dampen the drunken
spending compulsions of congress.

Anyway, I was simply quoting the current economic picture from WSJ to
counter the previous posters allusions to "disaster."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> Maybe he threw them right into the window of what would one day become his
> very own office! Pure coincidence! It could happen!

I was at that demonstration (have the photos to prove it). None of those medals
got near the building. I'm sure you could still find some in the lawn with a metal
detector, though.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tarver Engineering at
wrote on 1/25/04 7:54 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>> in article , Tarver Engineering at
>> wrote on 1/25/04 6:59 PM:
>>>> Whoa, are you telling me that becoming President costs a lot of money?
>>> Dude,
>>>> get the heck out of Dodge!
>>>
>>> Mrs. Heinz wants to buy the Whitehouse.
>>
>> I got news for you-- ALL the candidates want to do that, and whoever wins,
>> whether it's Bush, Kerry or someone else, will have done exactly that.
>
> Kerry is the only one with $6.5 million of his own money on the table.
> (wife's money) The rest of the pack has enough doner support to avoid that.

It's not necessarily all his wife's money. Kerry was born wealthy, and was
pretty well-off before he met his current wife, though I'll grant you, she
is far wealthier than he ever was on his own.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Tom Sixkiller at
wrote on 1/25/04 8:43 PM:

>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> in article , Jim Fisher at
>>> wrote on 1/25/04 11:02 AM:
>>>
>>>> Well, there's at least one redeeming quality.
>>>
>>> To go along with the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple
> Hearts.
>>> And all in a war he was opposed to. I find that somewhat redeeming.
>>
>> Except ther is no silver star.
>>
> ???
>
> No, Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, and a Bronze Star with "V" device.
>
> All that said does not equal credibility.
>
> Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to our
> Distinguished Service Cross.
>
> Big Whoop!!

I agree with you that distinguished military service is not necessarily a
reason to vote for someone. On the other hand, in a time when so much is
often made about who's patriotic and who's not, who's a "real American" and
who isn't, I certainly think it's appropriate to point out that John Kerry
served his country (voluntarily, I might add) and served it well.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> wrote on 1/25/04 7:54 PM:
>
> >
> > "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> in article , Tarver Engineering at
> >> wrote on 1/25/04 6:59 PM:
> >>>> Whoa, are you telling me that becoming President costs a lot of
money?
> >>> Dude,
> >>>> get the heck out of Dodge!
> >>>
> >>> Mrs. Heinz wants to buy the Whitehouse.
> >>
> >> I got news for you-- ALL the candidates want to do that, and whoever
wins,
> >> whether it's Bush, Kerry or someone else, will have done exactly that.
> >
> > Kerry is the only one with $6.5 million of his own money on the table.
> > (wife's money) The rest of the pack has enough doner support to avoid
that.
>
> It's not necessarily all his wife's money.

Kerry has $2 million, it is wifey's money that bought the house.

> Kerry was born wealthy, and was
> pretty well-off before he met his current wife, though I'll grant you, she
> is far wealthier than he ever was on his own.

Mrs. Heinz is about 250 times as wealthy as Kerry.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
> I agree with you that distinguished military service is not necessarily a
> reason to vote for someone. On the other hand, in a time when so much is
> often made about who's patriotic and who's not, who's a "real American"
and
> who isn't, I certainly think it's appropriate to point out that John Kerry
> served his country (voluntarily, I might add) and served it well.

More so than most children of millionaires.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Doug Carter" > wrote in message
...
> Michael 182 wrote:
> > This head in the sand view is just astonishing. This isn't a
> > liberal/conservative thing. As much as you would like to blame Clinton
for
> > the collapse (if you are a republican) or congratulate him for the boom
(if
> > you are a democrat), the reality is no economic policy result is neatly
> > encapsulated within the political boundaries of a presidential term.
>
> Not sure what you mean by "This head in the sand view..." I agree that
> economic cycles are not contained within any given presidential term but
> the president does have some influence. Clinton could have encouraged
> the SEC to enforce the existing securities laws and perhaps diminished
> the enormous amount of money fleeced from individual stockholders by
> investment banks; Bush could use his veto to dampen the drunken
> spending compulsions of congress.

If Clinton had done that the recession would have been apearant sooner.
When Rubin split in '98 the gamming of the system began in earnest. I don't
believe Rubin is all that ethical, but he is not a criminal; so he bailed.

[Morgans]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote
> I agree with you that distinguished military service is not necessarily a
> reason to vote for someone. On the other hand, in a time when so much is
> often made about who's patriotic and who's not, who's a "real American"
and
> who isn't, I certainly think it's appropriate to point out that John Kerry
> served his country (voluntarily, I might add) and served it well.

Only to come back and bash it! I would rather have seen him not serve his
country.
--
Jim in NC

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do with
> > > ability
> > > > to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.
> > >
> > > Your rescources describe a symptom as the cause, but it is the failure
> to
> > > allow imports by both the National Government of Japan and the
Japanese
> > > People that is the failure of their reflation plan. If you are going
to
> > > loan Yen, then it must be possible allow your borrowerto earn Yen to
> repay
> > > the loan; otherwise Yen must be purchased for dollars at the end of
term
> and
> > > the borrower is bankrupted.
> > >
> > Nice, but that has virtually NOTHING to do with exchange rates.
>
> Buy Yen with dollars, what happens to exchange rates?

Buy milk, or gas, or... with cash; what happens to the price?

>
> Borrow dollars, sell goods for dollars and pay back dollars is possible.
> All the Japanese did in their "reflation" was bankrupt their banks and now
> they can't afford to write off all the bad paper.

But the revelation has just about nothing to do with their import/export
polices, only the relative worth of the yen.

Your logic stream is 1-2-5-7-12-3-4-6...

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Morgans at
wrote on 1/26/04 7:20 PM:

>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote
>> I agree with you that distinguished military service is not necessarily a
>> reason to vote for someone. On the other hand, in a time when so much is
>> often made about who's patriotic and who's not, who's a "real American"
> and
>> who isn't, I certainly think it's appropriate to point out that John Kerry
>> served his country (voluntarily, I might add) and served it well.
>
> Only to come back and bash it! I would rather have seen him not serve his
> country.

"Bash it"? It seems to me that he volunteered for dangerous duty in a war
that he didn't completely agree with. He put his ass on the line for his
country, even though he didn't agree with the cause. I'm not sure you'll see
a better definition of patriotism in your lifetime.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Corky Scott" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:45:05 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >> "Peter" > wrote in message
> >> news:LA%Qb.152462$na.260922@attbi_s04...
> >> >
> >> > According to CNN (and numerous other sources), Kerry has been awarded
> >both
> >> > distinctions:
> >> > "It was in 1971 that Kerry, then 27, appeared before the Senate
Foreign
> >> > Relations Committee to speak out against U.S. policy in Vietnam.
> >
> >And that testimony is going to be a part of his downfall when it gets
> >thoroughly analyzed during the later campaign.
>
> Why might that be?

Gross slander and dereliction of duty for starters.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:GfiRb.154715$I06.1566269@attbi_s01...
>
> "Doug Carter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54>, Michael 182 says...
> > >
> > >
> > >"Stuart King" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> > ...
> > >Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
> > >disasterous.
> >
> > Rescuing the economy from the collapse of the Clinton bubble has not
been
> easy
> > but is well underway. We are in, I think, the third consecutive highest
> growth
> > quarter in twenty years and the employment rate is over 94% and
> increasing.
> >
>
> This head in the sand view is just astonishing. This isn't a
> liberal/conservative thing. As much as you would like to blame Clinton for
> the collapse (if you are a republican) or congratulate him for the boom
(if
> you are a democrat), the reality is no economic policy result is neatly
> encapsulated within the political boundaries of a presidential term.

Except that the Clinton FCC was the basis for saddleing the telecomm
industry with the burden then led to theri downfall and largely took the
internet stocks (not necessarily the dot com...that was stupid in any right)
down the tubes.

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/_comm-telecom.htm (Originally
published in October, 2002)

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/epstein-perils_of_transition.html

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.asp?control=1166


> President Bush's current policy (combined with Congress) of creating
massive
> spending increases combined with tax cuts may, in some way, be linked to
the
> results of Clinton's policies. The question is does the deficit growth
> policy make any sense?

How about when it was used from 1932 to 1996 with just a two year respite?

>Sure, everyone knows it makes sense to borrow for a
> good investment - but foreclosures and bankruptcies occur becasue the
> investment doesn't always pan out.

Yes.

> I don't know macro economics very well, so I'll concede that there are
many
> parts to this I don't understand. The part I do understand, and that I was
> taught from a young age, is pay your own way. Don't expect anyone to bail
> you out. I don't see the current administration living that basic
principle.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v25n6/crane.pdf

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/dehaven-030728.html

and worst of all ... http://www.cato.org/dailys/07-31-03.html

Thank...I'll stay home this November.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> >
> > No, Kerry was awarded the Silver Star, and a Bronze Star with
> > "V" device.
> >
> > All that said does not equal credibility.
> >
> > Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
> > our Distinguished Service Cross.
> >
> > Big Whoop!!
>
> I'm sure many U. S. veterans who hold these decorations would be
> gratified to see your equating them with Hitler's giving himself the
> Iron Cross. No doubt they would enjoy your "big whoop" comment WRT these
> honors, as well.

Again your reading is stunted: The comparison is to KERRY, not all veterans.
The comparison is between two fascists: Kerry and Hitler.

Liberals never cease to amaze me -- for all their self-proclaim intellectual
capacity, their very basis claims intelligence is impotent. Then they prove
it.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do
with
> > > > ability
> > > > > to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.
> > > >
> > > > Your rescources describe a symptom as the cause, but it is the
failure
> > to
> > > > allow imports by both the National Government of Japan and the
> Japanese
> > > > People that is the failure of their reflation plan. If you are
going
> to
> > > > loan Yen, then it must be possible allow your borrowerto earn Yen to
> > repay
> > > > the loan; otherwise Yen must be purchased for dollars at the end of
> term
> > and
> > > > the borrower is bankrupted.
> > > >
> > > Nice, but that has virtually NOTHING to do with exchange rates.
> >
> > Buy Yen with dollars, what happens to exchange rates?
>
> Buy milk, or gas, or... with cash; what happens to the price?

Non-sequitur.

> > Borrow dollars, sell goods for dollars and pay back dollars is possible.
> > All the Japanese did in their "reflation" was bankrupt their banks and
now
> > they can't afford to write off all the bad paper.
>
> But the revelation has just about nothing to do with their import/export
> polices, only the relative worth of the yen.

How do you decouple rare Yen from the value of Yen?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Carrie Seddon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Mr. Kerry served at all is a reason for a bond with fellow veterans;
that
> his
> > service earned him a Bronze Star for Valor ("for personal bravery") and
a
> > Silver Star ("for gallantry") is even more compelling.

I read something in the last day or so that details the circumstances under
which Kerry won his decorations. To say things were very overblown is..well,
accurate.

>
> More impressive was Representative Ford saying Kerry has 2 siver stars and
a
> bronze star on Fox this morning. :)
>
> > Unfortunately, Mr.
> > Kerry came home to Massachusetts, the one state George McGovern carried
in
> > 1972. He joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and emceed the
Winter
> > Soldier Investigation (both financed by Jane Fonda). Many veterans
believe
> > these protests led to more American deaths, and to the enslavement of
the
> > people on whose behalf the protests were ostensibly being undertaken.
But
> > being a take-charge kind of guy, Mr. Kerry became a leader in the VVAW
and
> > even testified before Congress on the findings of the Investigation,
which
> he
> > accepted at face value.
>
> Some South Viet Namese were literally sold into slavery, to pay the Soviet
> Union for their support.

The North Vietnamese killed more people in South Vietnam AFTER the US left
in 1975 than were killed in eleven years of fighting.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
> > I agree with you that distinguished military service is not necessarily
a
> > reason to vote for someone. On the other hand, in a time when so much is
> > often made about who's patriotic and who's not, who's a "real American"
> and
> > who isn't, I certainly think it's appropriate to point out that John
Kerry
> > served his country (voluntarily, I might add) and served it well.

That's arguable.

>
> More so than most children of millionaires.

Who consider military service only as a step ladder to public office.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Philip Sondericker" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Morgans at
> wrote on 1/26/04 7:20 PM:
>
> >
> > "Philip Sondericker" > wrote
> >> I agree with you that distinguished military service is not necessarily
a
> >> reason to vote for someone. On the other hand, in a time when so much
is
> >> often made about who's patriotic and who's not, who's a "real American"
> > and
> >> who isn't, I certainly think it's appropriate to point out that John
Kerry
> >> served his country (voluntarily, I might add) and served it well.
> >
> > Only to come back and bash it! I would rather have seen him not serve
his
> > country.
>
> "Bash it"? It seems to me that he volunteered for dangerous duty in a war
> that he didn't completely agree with. He put his ass on the line for his
> country, even though he didn't agree with the cause. I'm not sure you'll
see
> a better definition of patriotism in your lifetime.

I'd define it as office seeking.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > > You're half right; an exchange rate has little or nothing to do
> with
> > > > > ability
> > > > > > to pay, but on the comparative worth of two currencies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your rescources describe a symptom as the cause, but it is the
> failure
> > > to
> > > > > allow imports by both the National Government of Japan and the
> > Japanese
> > > > > People that is the failure of their reflation plan. If you are
> going
> > to
> > > > > loan Yen, then it must be possible allow your borrowerto earn Yen
to
> > > repay
> > > > > the loan; otherwise Yen must be purchased for dollars at the end
of
> > term
> > > and
> > > > > the borrower is bankrupted.
> > > > >
> > > > Nice, but that has virtually NOTHING to do with exchange rates.
> > >
> > > Buy Yen with dollars, what happens to exchange rates?
> >
> > Buy milk, or gas, or... with cash; what happens to the price?
>
> Non-sequitur.

Not at all; supply of one currency and it's attached worth to the other --
simple supply and demand.

>
> > > Borrow dollars, sell goods for dollars and pay back dollars is
possible.
> > > All the Japanese did in their "reflation" was bankrupt their banks and
> now
> > > they can't afford to write off all the bad paper.
> >
> > But the revelation has just about nothing to do with their import/export
> > polices, only the relative worth of the yen.
>
> How do you decouple rare Yen from the value of Yen?

"Rare" yen? Is that like, still sorta raw?

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Corky Scott" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 21:45:05 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> "Peter" > wrote in message
> > >> news:LA%Qb.152462$na.260922@attbi_s04...
> > >> >
> > >> > According to CNN (and numerous other sources), Kerry has been
awarded
> > >both
> > >> > distinctions:
> > >> > "It was in 1971 that Kerry, then 27, appeared before the Senate
> Foreign
> > >> > Relations Committee to speak out against U.S. policy in Vietnam.
> > >
> > >And that testimony is going to be a part of his downfall when it gets
> > >thoroughly analyzed during the later campaign.
> >
> > Why might that be?
>
> Gross slander and dereliction of duty for starters.

What a totalitarian sentiment. "Slandering the state" is what the Soviet
Union used to charge dissidents with when they denounced acts of
international aggression committed by their country, as Kerry had the
courage to do with regard to the US invasion and conquest of South Vietnam.

Dereliction of duty? One of an officer's principal duties under domestic
and international law is to prevent his own side from committing war crimes.
If Kerry had remained silent about the massive, systematic atrocities
committed by the US in its brutal attempt to impose a puppet dictatorship
upon the people of South Vietnam (killing literally millions of people in
the process), THAT would have been a dereliction of his legal and moral duty
as a soldier, a citizen, and a human being.

--Gary

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:qgtRb.127200$5V2.656621@attbi_s53...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...

> > >
> > > Why might that be?
> >
> > Gross slander and dereliction of duty for starters.
>
> What a totalitarian sentiment. "Slandering the state" is what the Soviet
> Union used to charge dissidents with when they denounced acts of
> international aggression committed by their country, as Kerry had the
> courage to do with regard to the US invasion and conquest of South
Vietnam.

Where did I say he slandered the "state"?

>
> Dereliction of duty? One of an officer's principal duties under domestic
> and international law is to prevent his own side from committing war
crimes.

Yes, it is. So why did he "see" so many attrocities and do nothing, as he
would be required to do in his duty as an officer, about them?

> If Kerry had remained silent about the massive, systematic atrocities
> committed by the US in its brutal attempt to impose a puppet dictatorship
> upon the people of South Vietnam (killing literally millions of people in
> the process), THAT would have been a dereliction of his legal and moral
duty
> as a soldier, a citizen, and a human being.

Before you decide to spin for the fellow, you might look past your rhetoric
and review his remarks and his actions.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Zero relevance... You might as well grade candidates on the length of their
dick.///

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message > Mrs. Heinz is
about 250 times as wealthy as Kerry.
>
>

[Michelle P]

Toks,
Baby Bush is/was a Pilot as well.
Just remember that they are Politicians first and pilots second. They
will still do what they think will make people feel better. One level
headed individual can do little to stop over five hundred idiots.

Michelle

Toks Desalu wrote:

>I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry, a democrat, is a
>certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying a plane in left seat.
>There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a low
>wing. Just wanted to share what I saw.
>
>Toks Desalu
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Dan Luke"
> writes:

>>
>> Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
>> our Distinguished Service Cross.
>>
>> Big Whoop!!
>
>I'm sure many U. S. veterans who hold these decorations would be
>gratified to see your equating them with Hitler's giving himself the
>Iron Cross. No doubt they would enjoy your "big whoop" comment WRT these
>honors, as well.

In the interests of historical accuracy, and not to defend a monster, I think
Hitler got the award legitimately in WW1 and did not give it to himself.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Toks,
> Baby Bush is/was a Pilot as well.
> Just remember that they are Politicians first and pilots second. They
> will still do what they think will make people feel better. One level
> headed individual can do little to stop over five hundred idiots.
>

So was Bush, Sr.

So were George McGovern and Barry Goldwater and _there_ is a contrast if
ever there was one.

And on and on...

All in all, though, I suppose it's better than picking a candidate based on
endorsement by ones favorite rock star or Hollyweird celebrity.


> Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Homer Simpson's favorite Charity: Habitat for Huge Manatee's.

[Geoffrey Barnes]

> Zero relevance... You might as well grade candidates on the length of
their
> dick.///

Clinton WINS! Actually, he's the only one for whom I seen any evidence on
this front. Where is Ken Starr when we really need him?

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> news:qgtRb.127200$5V2.656621@attbi_s53...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >
> > > > Why might that be?
> > >
> > > Gross slander and dereliction of duty for starters.
> >
> > What a totalitarian sentiment. "Slandering the state" is what the
Soviet
> > Union used to charge dissidents with when they denounced acts of
> > international aggression committed by their country, as Kerry had the
> > courage to do with regard to the US invasion and conquest of South
> Vietnam.
>
> Where did I say he slandered the "state"?

Perhaps I misunderstood. If you were not referring to Kerry's criticism
of the actions of the US government and the US military, then whom,
specifically, do you claim Kerry slandered and what, specifically, are the
false accusations that the alleged slander consisted of?

> > Dereliction of duty? One of an officer's principal duties under
domestic
> > and international law is to prevent his own side from committing war
> crimes.
>
> Yes, it is. So why did he "see" so many attrocities and do nothing, as he
> would be required to do in his duty as an officer, about them?

Kerry and his organization gathered documentation of far more than what
he personally witnessed. And his testimony before Congress *was* doing
something about it.

> > If Kerry had remained silent about the massive, systematic atrocities
> > committed by the US in its brutal attempt to impose a puppet
dictatorship
> > upon the people of South Vietnam (killing literally millions of people
in
> > the process), THAT would have been a dereliction of his legal and moral
> duty
> > as a soldier, a citizen, and a human being.
>
> Before you decide to spin for the fellow, you might look past your
rhetoric
> and review his remarks and his actions.

I'm not spinning for Kerry. I find plenty to criticize him for (such as
voting to let Bush unilaterally go to war in Iraq under false pretenses).
But Kerry's activism in opposition to the US war in Vietnam was
exemplary of how patriots and humanitarians ought to behave.

--Gary

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:GvvRb.36384$U%5.211716@attbi_s03...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> > news:qgtRb.127200$5V2.656621@attbi_s53...
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > Why might that be?
> > > >
> > > > Gross slander and dereliction of duty for starters.
> > >
> > > What a totalitarian sentiment. "Slandering the state" is what the
> Soviet
> > > Union used to charge dissidents with when they denounced acts of
> > > international aggression committed by their country, as Kerry had the
> > > courage to do with regard to the US invasion and conquest of South
> > Vietnam.
> >
> > Where did I say he slandered the "state"?
>
> Perhaps I misunderstood. If you were not referring to Kerry's criticism
> of the actions of the US government and the US military, then whom,
> specifically, do you claim Kerry slandered and what, specifically, are the
> false accusations that the alleged slander consisted of?

Perhaps you should read a transcript of his testimony.

>
> > > Dereliction of duty? One of an officer's principal duties under
> domestic
> > > and international law is to prevent his own side from committing war
> > crimes.
> >
> > Yes, it is. So why did he "see" so many attrocities and do nothing, as
he
> > would be required to do in his duty as an officer, about them?
>
> Kerry and his organization gathered documentation of far more than what
> he personally witnessed.

They gathered anecdotes.

> And his testimony before Congress *was* doing
> something about it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Right...that's how military officers do their duty.

> > > If Kerry had remained silent about the massive, systematic atrocities
> > > committed by the US in its brutal attempt to impose a puppet
> dictatorship
> > > upon the people of South Vietnam (killing literally millions of people
> in
> > > the process), THAT would have been a dereliction of his legal and
moral
> > duty
> > > as a soldier, a citizen, and a human being.
> >
> > Before you decide to spin for the fellow, you might look past your
> rhetoric
> > and review his remarks and his actions.
>
> I'm not spinning for Kerry. I find plenty to criticize him for (such as
> voting to let Bush unilaterally go to war in Iraq under false pretenses).

Do have a clue what "unilateral" means? Do you ahve a clue what "false
pretenses" means?

> But Kerry's activism in opposition to the US war in Vietnam was
> exemplary of how patriots and humanitarians ought to behave.

Do you have a clue about ANYTHING?

He's a dollar...buy a clue!!

[Newps]

Doug Carter wrote:

> In article <SQ_Qb.116380$Rc4.910912@attbi_s54>, Michael 182 says...
>
>>
>>"Stuart King" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> ...
>
>>Even my Republican friends complain that Bush's economic policies are
>>disasterous.
>
>
> Rescuing the economy from the collapse of the Clinton bubble has not been easy
> but is well underway. We are in, I think, the third consecutive highest growth
> quarter in twenty years and the employment rate is over 94% and increasing.

The economy officialy recovered in late 2002. We are already in our
second year of the good economy.

[Dan Luke]

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> Again your reading is stunted:

Coming from someone who cannot even read his own post, this carries
little sting. You said:

> Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
> our Distinguished Service Cross.
>
> Big Whoop!!

How else can that be read other than that, in your opinion, holding
these decorations is a "Big Whoop," a derisive expression?

If I find a man holds the Silver Star, he has my respect for his service
to our country unless I *know* he received the honor fraudulently, as in
the case of Lyndon Johnson, for example. I do not say "Silver Star? Big
whoop!"

> The comparison is between two fascists: Kerry and Hitler.

LOL.

> Liberals never cease to amaze me -- for all their self-proclaim
intellectual
> capacity, their very basis claims intelligence is impotent. Then they
prove
> it.

You resort to name calling? What are you going to call me next, a Nazi?
Of course, you called Kerry a fascist, so I suppose nothing is too
over-the-top for you; maybe you'll make me a Satanist next time.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> > Perhaps I misunderstood. If you were not referring to Kerry's criticism
> > of the actions of the US government and the US military, then whom,
> > specifically, do you claim Kerry slandered and what, specifically, are
the
> > false accusations that the alleged slander consisted of?
>
> Perhaps you should read a transcript of his testimony.

I have indeed read a transcript of Kerry's pivotal Winter Soldier
Investigation testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on
April 22, 1971. I repeat my question: what, specifically, do you see as a
false accusation against any person in Kerry's testimony? What is the
accusation in question, and what is your evidence that it was false?

> Do you have a clue about ANYTHING?
>
> He's a dollar...buy a clue!!

Do you have a clue about how to have a civil exchange of ideas? Or are you
only able to converse with people who agree with you? If you're going to
deluge this newsgroup with repetitive, off-topic proclamations of your
opinions (and apparently no thought fleets through your mind that you
consider too trite or trivial to warrant everyone's attention here), you
could at least refrain from responding with vacuous insults when others
challenge you to support your assertions.

--Gary

[G.R. Patterson III]

Geoffrey Barnes wrote:
>
> > Zero relevance... You might as well grade candidates on the length of
> their
> > dick.///
>
> Clinton WINS! Actually, he's the only one for whom I seen any evidence on
> this front. Where is Ken Starr when we really need him?

You mean where is Monica when we really need her.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Jeb]

"> >
>
> At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in
> the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The
> University of Edinborough)

Edinburgh is how its spelt http://www.edinburgh.org/

[Malcolm Teas]

Newps > wrote in message news:<NXvRb.167758$na.277405@attbi_s04>...
> The economy officialy recovered in late 2002. We are already in our
> second year of the good economy.

I once heard an economist jokingly define a recession as when his
friends lose their jobs. A depression, on the other hand, was when HE
lost his job.

The problem with this recovery is that it's a technical recovery only.
GNP has stopped decreasing quarter per quarter, that's the official
definition of the end of a recovery. That's the way it was defined
when I got my econ. degree and still is. But, that says nothing about
jobs still decreasing, and the ones that are being created are more
often contract temporary positions than permanent ones.

Also, indications are that the net icome for the working public, ie
those that make the majority of their income through jobs, has
decreased. Greenspan encouraged a housing boom to replace the dot com
boom. That's softened the impact of the recession greatly. But it's
a limited thing. People can only refinance and spend so much.

So, yes. We're technically out of recession, and I'll be happy to
take any good news I can get. But in this case it doesn't necessarily
mean much.

-Malcolm Teas

[Paul Sengupta]

Hang on, isn't the thread supposed to end once Hitler
has been mentioned?

Paul

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> > Again your reading is stunted:
>
> Coming from someone who cannot even read his own post, this carries
> little sting. You said:
>
> > Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
> > our Distinguished Service Cross.

[Toks Desalu]

Hey...
I haven't said anything. I am not the one who causes the political debates.
I simply stated that I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John
Kerry, a democrat, is a certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying
a plane in left seat. End of story right there. If you ask me for opinion of
who should run the country, I would explain that is based on their political
agenda, not based on their flying status.
Toks Desalu
PP-ASEL
Dyin' to Soar


"Michelle P" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Toks,
> Baby Bush is/was a Pilot as well.
> Just remember that they are Politicians first and pilots second. They
> will still do what they think will make people feel better. One level
> headed individual can do little to stop over five hundred idiots.
>
> Michelle
>
> Toks Desalu wrote:
>
> >I was watching MSNBC recently and learned that John Kerry, a democrat, is
a
> >certified pilot, I saw a quick episode of him flying a plane in left
seat.
> >There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a
low
> >wing. Just wanted to share what I saw.
> >
> >Toks Desalu
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P
>
> "Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)
>
> Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic
>
> Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity
>

[Dan Luke]

"Paul Sengupta" wrote:
> Hang on, isn't the thread supposed to end once Hitler
> has been mentioned?

I believe you're right, Paul - my bad.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Doug Carter]

In article >, Malcolm Teas
says...
>
>Newps > wrote in message
>news:<NXvRb.167758$na.277405@attbi_s04>...
>> The economy officialy recovered in late 2002. We are already in our
>> second year of the good economy.
>
>I once heard an economist jokingly define a recession as when his
>friends lose their jobs. A depression, on the other hand, was when HE
>lost his job.

It's not all gloom and doom, GDP and personal income are up, unemployment is
down; each of these are forecast to continue improving through 2004. If only
we could get Bush to veto some of the drunken crazed pork barrell spending by
congress things would look even better.


Jan 2004, Bureau of Labor Statistics: “...the unemployment rate, at 5.7 percent,
continued to trend down, the of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today.”


Jan, 2004 “Wall Street Journal: “The economy has momentum heading into 2004.
Economists see solid growth, improvement in the labor market and growing
corporate profits.

Economists who participated in the semiannual forecasting survey expect growth
at around a 4% inflation-adjusted annualized rate throughout the year - starting
with growth of nearly 4.5% in the first quarter. They believe unemployment will
ease toward 5.5% and profits will grow 15.9%.”


December 2003, Bureau of Economic Analysis: “Personal income increased $44.0
billion, or 0.5 percent, and disposable personal income (DPI) increased $39.2
billion, or 0.5 percent, in November...”

[G.R. Patterson III]

Malcolm Teas wrote:
>
> I once heard an economist jokingly define a recession as when his
> friends lose their jobs. A depression, on the other hand, was when HE
> lost his job.

And a panic is when your wife loses *her* job.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Tarver Engineering]

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
link.net...
> > Zero relevance... You might as well grade candidates on the length of
> their
> > dick.///
>
> Clinton WINS!

Only in a mini-penis contest. You really misread the Starr report. :)

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...

> > How do you decouple rare Yen from the value of Yen?
>
> "Rare" yen? Is that like, still sorta raw?

It is the nature of the Japanese economy.

It is much easier to pay back dollars, 'cause Americans will purchase
anything.

I was surpised Mr. Hankey wasn't for sale at Christmas. :)

[John Harlow]

> Hang on, isn't the thread supposed to end once Hitler
> has been mentioned?

You must be new to all this - all threads eventually end in a ridiculous OS
war.

You're probably one of those mac weenies anyway... ;)

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Tarver Engineering"
> writes:

>
>"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
link.net...
>> > Zero relevance... You might as well grade candidates on the length of
>> their
>> > dick.///
>>
>> Clinton WINS!
>
>Only in a mini-penis contest. You really misread the Starr report. :)
>
>

Depends if you measure along the arc or across the chord.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> Hang on, isn't the thread supposed to end once Hitler
> has been mentioned?

Only when used as an accusation.


>
> Paul
>
> "Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> > > Again your reading is stunted:
> >
> > Coming from someone who cannot even read his own post, this carries
> > little sting. You said:
> >
> > > Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
> > > our Distinguished Service Cross.
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hang on, isn't the thread supposed to end once Hitler
> > has been mentioned?
>

Only when used as an accusation, rather than an analogy (that Dan totally
missed).

>
>
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > "Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> > > > Again your reading is stunted:
> > >
> > > Coming from someone who cannot even read his own post, this carries
> > > little sting. You said:
> > >
> > > > Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to
> > > > our Distinguished Service Cross.

[Jay Honeck]

> > .......big on talk but small on results.
>
> I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. Look at the world
> strategically, and consider the changes taking place.

Boy, now THERE is an understatement.

You may not agree with them, but Bush has had more "results" than any
president in recent memory.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> "Bash it"? It seems to me that he volunteered for dangerous duty in a war
> that he didn't completely agree with. He put his ass on the line for his
> country, even though he didn't agree with the cause. I'm not sure you'll
see
> a better definition of patriotism in your lifetime.

Not saying I disagree with you regarding Kerry's patriotism, but the thought
comes to mind that perhaps we might have actually WON that war if we didn't
have so many "Indians" (like Kerry) thinking they were "Chiefs"...

You really have to wonder how motivated a soldier can be fighting in a war
he actively disagrees with? The next logical question is then: "Can a
soldier act correctly and with all due efficiency fighting a war he does not
support?" Did we lose because of the military rotting from within? Was
Kerry an example of this?

"Sixkiller" may be right : We might have been better off if he had simply
become a conscientious objector.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tarver Engineering]

"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Tarver Engineering"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >> > Zero relevance... You might as well grade candidates on the length of
> >> their
> >> > dick.///
> >>
> >> Clinton WINS!
> >
> >Only in a mini-penis contest. You really misread the Starr report. :)
> >
> >
>
> Depends if you measure along the arc or across the chord.

Billy got his pecker fixed, right after Webb Hubble's love child got her
lips cut down in '99. The rumor is Billy has an implant now, so those pesky
blisters won't stop his erections anymore.

[Gig Giacona]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:QEQRb.44543$U%5.237134@attbi_s03...

> Not saying I disagree with you regarding Kerry's patriotism, but the
thought
> comes to mind that perhaps we might have actually WON that war if we
didn't
> have so many "Indians" (like Kerry) thinking they were "Chiefs"...
>

I think the fact that the Chiefs kept acting like Indians caused as many
problems as the reverse. The Johnson and McNamara were doing Frag orders
that should have been done by a Col. at best.

[Dennis O'Connor]

You point out many things that are true... I do not consider myself a
luddite, nor ignorant of the impossibility of turning back the clock; nor of
reversing the industrial revolution so we can all return to Eden: But in
the name of improving the bottom line for the corporate share holders we
exported the smokestack industries leaving ourselves at the mercy of others
to produce and sell back to us those things made of metals and stamped out
by great thumping presses... Then the toaster, and furniture, and clothing,
and glass ware, and on, and on... Then we exported the making of machines
that make machines, also in the name of profit margins, now we are dependent
upon foreign sources for our precision tool machinery... Then we exported
the manufacturing of the televison we gave the world, because there was more
profit, and now we buy all of our television sets from abroad... Next, the
camera went overseas, and the film industry is rapidly following.... Then we
exported the technology of the computer chip we were foremost in inventing,
and now we depend upon others to sell us the chips to make the computers,
again because it was more profitable... Now, the highly skilled software
jobs are fleeing, like thieves in the night, to India because the corporate
CEO can increase profits and make a bonus of millions... And, currently we
are in a titanic struggle over food tariffs and if we lose our sense of
purpose we will become dependent upon foreign sources for a majority of our
basic foodstuffs...
Once, we become totally a nation of hamburger flippers where is the money to
buy the foreign products we are dependent upon going to come from?
denny

"Malcolm Teas" > wrote in message >
> The problem with this recovery is that it's a technical recovery only.
But, that says nothing about
> jobs still decreasing, and the ones that are being created are more
> often contract temporary positions than permanent ones.
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> You point out many things that are true... I do not consider myself a
> luddite, nor ignorant of the impossibility of turning back the clock; nor
of
> reversing the industrial revolution so we can all return to Eden: But in
> the name of improving the bottom line for the corporate share holders we
> exported the smokestack industries leaving ourselves at the mercy of
others
> to produce and sell back to us those things made of metals and stamped out
> by great thumping presses...

The People wanted cleaner air and to get there industry had to leave.

> Then the toaster, and furniture, and clothing,
> and glass ware, and on, and on... Then we exported the making of machines
> that make machines, also in the name of profit margins, now we are
dependent
> upon foreign sources for our precision tool machinery...

No, the tool industry is no computerized and obsolete machines are made
overseas.

> Then we exported
> the manufacturing of the televison we gave the world, because there was
more
> profit, and now we buy all of our television sets from abroad...

The best analog picture tubes still come from Pennsylvania. (Sony 27")

> Next, the
> camera went overseas, and the film industry is rapidly following.... Then
we
> exported the technology of the computer chip we were foremost in
inventing,
> and now we depend upon others to sell us the chips to make the computers,
> again because it was more profitable...

Automated founries don't require many workers and the dies still come from
America. Much like hybrid corn, we control the flow.

> Now, the highly skilled software
> jobs are fleeing, like thieves in the night, to India because the
corporate
> CEO can increase profits and make a bonus of millions... And, currently we
> are in a titanic struggle over food tariffs and if we lose our sense of
> purpose we will become dependent upon foreign sources for a majority of
our
> basic foodstuffs...

Shouldn't we allow the People of India to pull themselves out of poverty?

> Once, we become totally a nation of hamburger flippers where is the money
to
> buy the foreign products we are dependent upon going to come from?
> denny

Services.

> "Malcolm Teas" > wrote in message >
> > The problem with this recovery is that it's a technical recovery only.
> But, that says nothing about
> > jobs still decreasing, and the ones that are being created are more
> > often contract temporary positions than permanent ones.
> >
>
>

[Corky Scott]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 15:35:12 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> "Bash it"? It seems to me that he volunteered for dangerous duty in a war
>> that he didn't completely agree with. He put his ass on the line for his
>> country, even though he didn't agree with the cause. I'm not sure you'll
>see
>> a better definition of patriotism in your lifetime.
>
>Not saying I disagree with you regarding Kerry's patriotism, but the thought
>comes to mind that perhaps we might have actually WON that war if we didn't
>have so many "Indians" (like Kerry) thinking they were "Chiefs"...
>
>You really have to wonder how motivated a soldier can be fighting in a war
>he actively disagrees with? The next logical question is then: "Can a
>soldier act correctly and with all due efficiency fighting a war he does not
>support?" Did we lose because of the military rotting from within? Was
>Kerry an example of this?
>
>"Sixkiller" may be right : We might have been better off if he had simply
>become a conscientious objector.
>--
>Jay Honeck
>Iowa City, IA
>Pathfinder N56993
>www.AlexisParkInn.com
>"Your Aviation Destination"

C'mon Jay, have you done your homework? The US had enough military
force invested in the Vietnamese war to win it, why didn't they? Why
didn't the North Vietnamese simply give up in the face of that
incredible, overwhelming fire power?

C'mon, you know the answer.

We did not capture the nation. The military was denied permission to
invade North Vietnam because Washington was afraid it would upset
China, and we might have another Korean war on our hands. You cannot
win a war through airpower alone, you must capture all the enemy
territory and their leaders and force them to sign a document of
surrender. The military knew this, they asked permission to invade.

And who denied permission to invade? Here's a hint, it wasn't the John
Kerry's who made those kind of decisions.

The war was controled by Washington to the point where Lyndon Johnson
bragged "They can't even hit an outhouse without my permission."

The debacle of the Vietnam War is the reigning example in the history
of warfare of how NOT to fight a war. The military has studied the
defeat in monumental detail. The First Persion Gulf War showed how
well the military learned (actually they knew how to win, they just
weren't allowed to, it required that the White House agree to a
winning battle plan): Blind the enemy, gut their communications,
demoralize their soldiers and then attack swiftly with MASSIVE force.
Roll them up, don't give them a chance to organize, force a
surrender.

So let's not blame Kerry for realizing that the war was bogus right
away and working to get us out of Vietnam when he returned to civilian
life. Even the leaders of those times now admit that getting into
Vietnam was a big and I do mean BIG mistake.

Corky Scott

[C J Campbell]

"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message
.. .
| "Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
| > There is no way to recognize what kind of plane, but it is definitely a
| low
| > wing.
|
| Well, there's at least one redeeming quality. However, I think he's
| probably a highwinger in drag.

Jim, have you changed your opinion of highwingers? I thought you believed
that all highwingers were in drag.

[C J Campbell]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:Q3ARb.169614$na.278314@attbi_s04...
| Hey...
| I haven't said anything. I am not the one who causes the political
debates.

It is OK, Toks. I haven't said anything, either. But I bet I still get
blamed for starting a political debate.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hang on, isn't the thread supposed to end once Hitler
> > > has been mentioned?
>
> Only when used as an accusation, rather than an analogy (that Dan totally
> missed).


Ok, sorry guys, carry on...

Paul

[C J Campbell]

"Roger Long" m> wrote in
message ...
| Yup.
|
| Let's put someone in the White House who can talk sense to the Secret
| Service and homeland security wackos about general aviation.
|

Unfortunately, Mr. Kerry has not shown any tendency to talk sense about
general aviation.

Look, I do not like the Patriot Act, the TFRs, the busybodies who report
pilots to the FBI, Homeland Security, color-coded security levels, or
anything else about our current security stance. I think these things should
be opposed vociferously. Not a single one of the Democratic candidates has
done this. If they have said anything at all, it is that the current
administration's measures are not severe enough. They mumble on about how
the war in Iraq is diverting resources from "fighting terror," meaning more
restrictions at home.

But it helps to keep things in perspective. Even with all these
restrictions, we have a lot more freedom to fly and a lot less government
intrusion than we did during WW II and the years after. The FBI in those
days did not even have to get a court order for a wiretap; they just tapped
the phones of anyone they wanted. No one read criminals their rights; they
instead were taken into back rooms and confessions were beaten out of them.
Even suspected spies (terrorists and saboteurs) have more rights today than
they used to -- even those at Guantanamo. Heck, we don't even shoot
deserters any more.

We are only required to file flight plans before we fly in a couple of
areas. It used to be that a flight plan was mandatory and that much general
aviation was not allowed. For years there was an ADIZ above 10,000 feet that
covered the entire contiguous United States. Thousands of GA airplanes
disappeared in WW II scrap drives. Even if you somehow got permission to
fly, you probably couldn't get fuel. You also could not get tires or rubber
hoses or many other parts needed for maintaining your airplane. We haven't
rounded up all the Moslems and Arabs and put them in internment camps, as we
did the Japanese and threatened to do to Germans and Italians.

When you get right down to it, and I hate to say it, President Bush has not
been nearly as despotic as Franklin Roosevelt was. And yet, his enemies
continually compare him to Adolph Hitler. If Bush was really like Adolph
Hitler, all pilots would be drafted into the Civil Air Patrol and we would
fly 24/7 airspace patrol. The borders would be sealed. The Moslem and Arab
communities would be interned and systematically enslaved and gassed. There
would be no Democratic party. The current Democratic candidates would have
disappeared into the "night and fog" (to quote Hitler) years ago. Movement
from one place to another would be severely restricted. Checkpoints at every
major intersection would be established to check your travel papers.
Everybody would have been LoJacked a long time ago.

And if you think TSA is ridiculous now, imagine if Hitler ran it! "Please
fill out these forms stating your name, race, religion, sexual orientation,
country of origin of your ancestors, height, weight, age, eye color, hair
color, parents' names, race and religion, your current address, reason for
travel, how long you will be gone, your political party or affiliations,
your occupation, your bank account numbers, list of all newspapers,
magazines, and other publications you subscribe to, list of all television
shows you have watched in the last five years, health history (include
copies of all medical records), property you own, a list of all tenants and
guests, etc." "Now, if you will just step into this booth, we will check
your DNA for Moslem or Arab markers. Be sure to leave a urine sample so we
can check you for drugs, explosives, and genetic diseases. You may remove
your clothes for the body cavity search over there. Just get in line with
the rest of the naked people. Your clothes will be burned and you will be
issued your flight jumpsuit as soon as we have analyzed the X-rays. In the
meantime we will scan your computer for encrypted files, pornography, state
secrets and subversive information." "Have you been circumcised? The
in-flight meal will consist of roast pork. You are required to eat it. You
may board as soon as you have stomped on this copy of the Koran."

Does all of that mean that I think the current restrictions are justified?
Heck, no! Nor does it mean that I think that Hitler type restrictions would
not be imposed if politicians of either party thought they could get away
with it. I just want to point out that things could be and have been a lot
worse, and that political affiliation has nothing to do with how nonsensical
these restrictions get.

[Doug Carter]

In article >, Corky Scott says...
....
>C'mon Jay, have you done your homework? The US had enough military
>force invested in the Vietnamese war to win it, why didn't they? Why
>didn't the North Vietnamese simply give up in the face of that
>incredible, overwhelming fire power?
>
>C'mon, you know the answer.
>
>We did not capture the nation. The military was denied permission to
>invade North Vietnam because Washington was afraid it would upset
>China, ...

Quite correct and why we can't afford to have a Democrat in the White House
right now. Clinton was adequate to oversee the interim between the cold war and
the terrorist wars but keep in mind that all the of Democratic candidates save
Lieberman (has he dropped out yet?) are anti war and would immediately freeze us
in position like Johnson. The model applied to Germany and Japan will serve the
worlds interest better than that of Vietnam and North Korea.

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> Did we lose because of the military rotting from within? Was
> Kerry an example of this?

Jay, you've truly reached a new low with this statement.

I could suggest you read, say, "A Rumor of War"...but I won't. You
prefer to remain in a kinda Disneyland world, all fantasy and no
reality.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Did we lose because of the military rotting from within? Was
> > Kerry an example of this?
>
> Jay, you've truly reached a new low with this statement.

You seem to think I meant this question in a derogatory sort of way, when,
in fact, it was an honest, open-ended question.

Seeing a member of the armed forces actively protesting an on-going war (as
Kerry supposedly did while in uniform) seems to fit the definition of a
military "rotting from within." I was too young to fully appreciate the
Viet Nam debacle -- I was 15 when South Viet Nam fell -- but this action by
a decorated war "hero" would certainly indicate to me that morale had become
a significant problem for the U.S. military.

What else would you call it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
>
> I could suggest you read, say, "A Rumor of War"...but I won't. You
> prefer to remain in a kinda Disneyland world, all fantasy and no
> reality.

[III]

What about members of the National Guard who were awol during the
early seventies? What was their contribution to the war effort?

Personally, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the guy with three
purple hearts.


>
> Not saying I disagree with you regarding Kerry's patriotism, but the thought
> comes to mind that perhaps we might have actually WON that war if we didn't
> have so many "Indians" (like Kerry) thinking they were "Chiefs"...

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> > > Did we lose because of the military rotting from within? Was
> > > Kerry an example of this?
> >
> > Jay, you've truly reached a new low with this statement.
>
> You seem to think I meant this question in a derogatory sort of way, when,
> in fact, it was an honest, open-ended question.

If that's the case, then I apologize.

I was 18 in 1973 so while I got a draft card and draft number they
were only calling the first 20-30 numbers when it was my turn. I
avoided service and didn't volunteer. I am not the type that does
well under authority ;-).

I knew of guys who went over there and came back messed up...a good
buddy of mine would tell me of how he and his platoon would tramp
around the jungle, buddies by his side stepping on the occasional land
mine and getting a foot blown off...he got a purple heart but nothing
that bad. He died at age 51 of liver cancer--I think probably Agent
Orange. Another guy in the special forces turned into a killing
machine, started liking killing gooks, and they had to deny him a 4th
tour. He's still violent 35 years later. I went to school with lots
of Vietnam vets. I never knew anybody who thought Vietnam was good.

If the military was rotting it was from BS, gung-ho officers who
wanted everything by the book and took stupid risks with their
men to further their careers. It was from candy-ass politicians who
got their own sons out of danger and would neither support an all-out
effort against N. Vietnam to win, nor would admit their limited,
micro-managed war couldn't win until 50,000 good Americans died.

Hurray for Kerry for keeping his eyes and mind open while in-country,
learning, and having the guts to speak what he thought was the truth,
in or out of uniform. The last thing this country needs is more
mindless sheep for our keepers to lead to perdition.

[R.Hubbell]

On 29 Jan 2004 18:52:39 -0800 Bob Fry > wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> > > > Did we lose because of the military rotting from within? Was
> > > > Kerry an example of this?
> > >
> > > Jay, you've truly reached a new low with this statement.
> >
> > You seem to think I meant this question in a derogatory sort of way, when,
> > in fact, it was an honest, open-ended question.
>
> If that's the case, then I apologize.
>
> I was 18 in 1973 so while I got a draft card and draft number they
> were only calling the first 20-30 numbers when it was my turn. I
> avoided service and didn't volunteer. I am not the type that does
> well under authority ;-).
>
> I knew of guys who went over there and came back messed up...a good
> buddy of mine would tell me of how he and his platoon would tramp
> around the jungle, buddies by his side stepping on the occasional land
> mine and getting a foot blown off...he got a purple heart but nothing
> that bad. He died at age 51 of liver cancer--I think probably Agent
> Orange. Another guy in the special forces turned into a killing
> machine, started liking killing gooks, and they had to deny him a 4th
> tour. He's still violent 35 years later. I went to school with lots
> of Vietnam vets. I never knew anybody who thought Vietnam was good.
>
> If the military was rotting it was from BS, gung-ho officers who
> wanted everything by the book and took stupid risks with their
> men to further their careers. It was from candy-ass politicians who
> got their own sons out of danger and would neither support an all-out
> effort against N. Vietnam to win, nor would admit their limited,
> micro-managed war couldn't win until 50,000 good Americans died.
>
> Hurray for Kerry for keeping his eyes and mind open while in-country,
> learning, and having the guts to speak what he thought was the truth,
> in or out of uniform. The last thing this country needs is more
> mindless sheep for our keepers to lead to perdition.


I'm applausing this post! People with guts to speak their mind are what
this country is all about. And those members of government that want to
try to initimidate anyone opposing them are unpatriotic.


R. Hubbell

[R.Hubbell]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:11:34 -0600 "Jim Fisher" > wrote:

> "R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
>
> > Did you avoid fulfilling your swarn duties to your country?
>
> No, I never had any "swarn" dities to my country . . . Except for paying
> taxes, I reckon. I've never avoided them but I damn sure don't like 'em.
> Does that count?

No not really. If we didn't pay taxes then the country would not look so
good or be very pleasant place to live.

>
> > So you think avoiding your swarn duties for your country is just a stupid
> > thing he did and it should be overlooked because he was young?
>
> Yeah, that pretty much states it. He kinda made up for it by serving as
> Commander in Chief . . . In my book, anyway.


Must be an interesting book. In my book he doesn't deserve the title.
It's a spit in the face of americans who fought for their country and
for americans that died for their country.


>
> Are you the same person you were when you were in your teens-twenties? I
> damn sure am not. Besides, it not like he took of to Canada.
>
> > Sons of people with lots less money suffer much worse fate than being
> > thought of as young and stupid when they fail to fulfill their swarn
> > duties to their country.
>
> It's not nice to swarn, by the way.

It's a requirement of service.



R. Hubbell

>
> --
> Jim Fisher
>
>

[R.Hubbell]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:26:51 -0800 "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
> "R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:32:15 -0800 "Tarver Engineering" >
> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> > > news:khYQb.117895$sv6.636439@attbi_s52...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk
> some
> > > > > > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly what
> happened.
> > > > > > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing or
> twenty in
> > > > > > my younger years, too.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill
> attendance was
> > > > > optional.
> > > >
> > > > Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's
> connections,
> > > > he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and
> even then
> > > > did not have the balls to meet his commitment.
> > >
> > > There were open slots in the ANG in Texas, for anyone elidgeable. When
> GW's
> >
> > Eligible in that case meant you better be an quarterback or the son of a
> > rich man. Not just anyone got those slots. Everyone knew that then.
> > It's not been forgotten by a lot of people who had loved ones that died
> > serving their country. I won't forget either.
>
> Anyone that wanted to join the Texas ANG could, excluding felons and the
> children of Kluxers. In fact, most of the draft dodgers of the day could
> have joined the Guard just by relocating to a State with open slots.
>
> > > F-102 unit changed over to a new airplane, there was no way they were
> going
> > > to pay to retrain a short timer. GW's job would have been to sit at a
> desk
> > > doing nothing.
> >
> > Well at least you acknowledge that he decided he wasn't going to serve his
> country
> > because he got a boring desk job. Any way you slice it he did not fulfill
> his
> > responsibilities to his country. That's not someone I respect.
>
> Sure he did, but Dean dodged the draft.
>
>


And look where it got him.


R. Hubbell

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"R.Hubbell" > wrote:

> I'm applausing this post! People with guts to speak their mind are what
> this country is all about. And those members of government that want to
> try to initimidate anyone opposing them are unpatriotic.

applauding only posts you agree with is hardly something to be praised.

--
Bob Noel

[Wdtabor]

In article <NufSb.181637$xy6.871605@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> writes:

>
>Seeing a member of the armed forces actively protesting an on-going war (as
>Kerry supposedly did while in uniform) seems to fit the definition of a
>military "rotting from within."

Kerry's military service was honorable, it is the rest of his life that is
embarrassing.

Ann Coulter, Our Lady of the Poison Pen, sums him up nicely

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040129.shtml

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[David Brooks]

"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> In article <NufSb.181637$xy6.871605@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Seeing a member of the armed forces actively protesting an on-going war
(as
> >Kerry supposedly did while in uniform) seems to fit the definition of a
> >military "rotting from within."
>
> Kerry's military service was honorable, it is the rest of his life that is
> embarrassing.
>
> Ann Coulter, Our Lady of the Poison Pen, sums him up nicely
>
> http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040129.shtml


Her summary point:
Kerry clearly has no experience dealing with problems of typical Americans
since he is a cad and a gigolo living in the lap of other men's money

If we're going to talk about the candidates' pampered pasts, and their
understanding of typical Americans, can we talk about the coke-head frat-boy
drunk who couldn't even make money in the oil business despite having a
bucketful of bin Laden money? Or is that still off limits?

-- David Brooks

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "David Brooks"
> writes:

>>
>> Kerry's military service was honorable, it is the rest of his life that is
>> embarrassing.
>>
>> Ann Coulter, Our Lady of the Poison Pen, sums him up nicely
>>
>> http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040129.shtml
>
>
>Her summary point:
>Kerry clearly has no experience dealing with problems of typical Americans
>since he is a cad and a gigolo living in the lap of other men's money
>

Well, let's not leave out the financial deception he is using to evade the very
same Campaign Finance laws he advocated.

He is supposedly paying for his own campaign by mortgaging personal property,
thus not being limited by the caps on contributions. His 6 million dollar loan
would require payments of over $360K per year, but his income is only about
$142K. So the truth is that his wife is giving him an allowance to run for
president.

Just a gigolo
everywhere I go
people know the part
I'm playing

Paid for every dance
selling each romance
every night some heart
betraying

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Tarver Engineering]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...

> If we're going to talk about the candidates' pampered pasts, and their
> understanding of typical Americans, can we talk about the coke-head
frat-boy
> drunk who couldn't even make money in the oil business despite having a
> bucketful of bin Laden money?

Kerry is a member of the same frat.

[Neil Gould]

Hi,

Recently, David Brooks > posted:
>
> If we're going to talk about the candidates' pampered pasts, and their
> understanding of typical Americans, can we talk about the coke-head
> frat-boy drunk who couldn't even make money in the oil business
> despite having a bucketful of bin Laden money? Or is that still off
> limits?
>
Hey! He made a small fortune in the oil biz. Never mind that he did so by
starting with a large one.

Neil

[Tarver Engineering]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi,
>
> Recently, David Brooks > posted:
> >
> > If we're going to talk about the candidates' pampered pasts, and their
> > understanding of typical Americans, can we talk about the coke-head
> > frat-boy drunk who couldn't even make money in the oil business
> > despite having a bucketful of bin Laden money? Or is that still off
> > limits?
> >
> Hey! He made a small fortune in the oil biz. Never mind that he did so by
> starting with a large one.

Selling wild cat shares is good money and the stock holders made money,
evetually.

Besides that Kerry is a member of the same frat.

[R.Hubbell]

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:28:18 GMT Bob Noel > wrote:

> In article >,
> "R.Hubbell" > wrote:
>
> > I'm applausing this post! People with guts to speak their mind are what
> > this country is all about. And those members of government that want to
> > try to initimidate anyone opposing them are unpatriotic.
>
> applauding only posts you agree with is hardly something to be praised.


Is this Dubya? This is a great Bushism. Bravo! :)


R. Hubbell

>
> --
> Bob Noel

[R.Hubbell]

On 30 Jan 2004 13:44:55 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <NufSb.181637$xy6.871605@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Seeing a member of the armed forces actively protesting an on-going war (as
> >Kerry supposedly did while in uniform) seems to fit the definition of a
> >military "rotting from within."
>
> Kerry's military service was honorable, it is the rest of his life that is
> embarrassing.
>
> Ann Coulter, Our Lady of the Poison Pen, sums him up nicely

I think we all know what Ann really needs. But who would want to. :)

I've heard of her and I'll bet she's your kind of gal.

I noticed that no one has nominated her for, well, anything.


R. Hubbell


>
> http://www.townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/ac20040129.shtml
>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Newps]

R.Hubbell wrote:


>
> I think we all know what Ann really needs. But who would want to. :)

Where's the line forming. She's a babe.

[Tony Cox]

"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kerry's military service was honorable, it is the rest of his life that is
> embarrassing.
>

My friend tells me that he kicked her dog some years
back when passing on the street. And my friend is a
Democrat, so this is no BS.

As I remember, Nixon never kicked Checkers....

[R.Hubbell]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 02:31:37 GMT Newps > wrote:

>
>
> R.Hubbell wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I think we all know what Ann really needs. But who would want to. :)
>
> Where's the line forming. She's a babe.


Like I said I don't think there's a line, go for it, you'll have no problem.
I'm sure you'll never be good enough! Yikes! :)


R. Hubbell
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> "Wdtabor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Kerry's military service was honorable, it is the rest of his life that
is
> > embarrassing.
> >
>
> My friend tells me that he kicked her dog some years
> back when passing on the street. And my friend is a
> Democrat, so this is no BS.
>
> As I remember, Nixon never kicked Checkers....

The botox has soaked into Kerry's brain.

[mike regish]

And now this thread is officially in the...what law is it when nazi's or
Hitler are mentioned?

mike regish

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hell, Hitler had the Iron Cross something or other equivalent to our
> Distinguished Service Cross.
>
> Big Whoop!!
>
>

[Wdtabor]

In article <dsESb.60844$U%5.362264@attbi_s03>, Newps >
writes:

>
>R.Hubbell wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I think we all know what Ann really needs. But who would want to. :)
>
>Where's the line forming. She's a babe.
>
>

Not only is she a babe, she has her own action figure:

http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&Product_ID=1565

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[mike regish]

I get a kick out of this. Kerry was wounded 3 times in combat situations
(Shrapnel and bullets...puts him kind of close to the action, no?), but his
medals were overblown and when he requested to be sent back home, as was his
right after being thrice wounded, he was shirking his duties, but GW was
just a stupid youngun when he was AWOL from his cushy, daddy provided
assignment in the ANG.

I swear, somebody's putting LSD in your drinking water.

mike regish

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
> > > Silver Star ("for gallantry") is even more compelling.
>
> I read something in the last day or so that details the circumstances
under
> which Kerry won his decorations. To say things were very overblown
is..well,
> accurate.

[Mike Powell]

"Stuart King" > wrote in message >...
>
> At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in
> the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The
> University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian
> Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

Actually, the guys tame was Tytler, not Tyler. And, more importantly,
nobody can find anything like this in his writings. Then there's the
fact that some of it doesn't make sense (e.g., The average age of
greatest civilizations just 200 years??? That's clearly wrong, and
Tytler would've known it). Further, Tytler *does* write about the
fall of Athens in "Universal History..." and he makes it clear the
reasons Athens fell had nothing to do with this supposed "cycle of
democracy."

This entire quote from Tytler appears to be a recent fabrication.

> <snip bogus cycle of democracy-to-dictatorship>
>
> Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul,
> Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the most recent
> Presidential election:

Nope. Professor Olson never wrote this. I asked him about it and he
says he had absolutely nothing to do with these statistics or the
"quotes" attributed to him. Someone just put his name on it
apparently because they thought it sounded more credible that way.

> Population of counties won by:
> Gore=127 million
> Bush=143 million
> Square miles of land won by:
> Gore=580,000
> Bush=2,2427,000

These numbers are right. They're from the 11/20/00 USA Today
newspaper.

> States won by:
> Gore=19
> Bush=29

Actually the final state-counts were Gore = 20 and Bush = 30. The
numbers shown imply this was written before the Florida and New Mexico
results were determined. So this message has been floating around the
Internet for over 3 years...

> Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
> Gore=13.2
> Bush=2.1

This one is also wrong. The correct numbers (for 1999 and 2000) are:

Gore = 6.5
Bush = 4.1

The ratio between these two numbers is about 1.6. Interestingly, you
get about this same ratio (within +/- 0.1) for the years 1995, 1996,
1997, and 1998 as well.

See: http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp for further
discussion of data sources, etc.

> Professor Olson adds:
>
> "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned
> by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory
> encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living
> off government welfare..."

Again, Professor Olson had nothing to do with this. It's unclear who
made up these quotes, but I doubt he/she was a professor of any kind.
:)

> Pass this along.

Please don't. In fact, if you receive these bogus quotes/statistics
via e-mail, please refer the sender to:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp

Conservatives look bad when they willingly repeat nonsense and
proclaim it true.

-Mike P.

p.s.: I apologize to those of you who read this newsgroup for
discussions about piloting, but people start to believe this stuff
when it goes unchallenged.

[mike regish]

Invest your money where it's needed. You need a LOT of clues.

mike regish

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do you have a clue about ANYTHING?
>
> He's a dollar...buy a clue!!
>
>
>
>

[mike regish]

Tell that to the unemployed.

mike regish

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:NXvRb.167758$na.277405@attbi_s04...
>
> The economy officialy recovered in late 2002. We are already in our
> second year of the good economy.
>

[mike regish]

Yeah, but most of us really prefer POSITIVE results.

mike regish

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:HrQRb.173808$xy6.815935@attbi_s02...
> > > .......big on talk but small on results.
> >
> > I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. Look at the world
> > strategically, and consider the changes taking place.
>
> Boy, now THERE is an understatement.
>
> You may not agree with them, but Bush has had more "results" than any
> president in recent memory.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[R.Hubbell]

On 31 Jan 2004 15:26:57 GMT (Wdtabor) wrote:

> In article <dsESb.60844$U%5.362264@attbi_s03>, Newps >
> writes:
>
> >
> >R.Hubbell wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I think we all know what Ann really needs. But who would want to. :)
> >
> >Where's the line forming. She's a babe.
> >
> >
>
> Not only is she a babe, she has her own action figure:
>
> http://www.newsmaxstore.com/nms/showdetl.cfm?&DID=6&Product_ID=1565

Since she probably doesn't like men anyway (they don't measure up
I'm sure) you will have to buy her figure to idolize her.

Collect them all! You'll no doubt want the Cheney, Rice, Bush, Rove,
Ridge, Rumsfeld, Powell figures too. You can play Government Gone Wild.

(Product disclaimer: The Bush action figure is hollow so that anyone
of the other action figures can stick their hand
up his you-know-what to make him, well, into an
action figure.)

Have fun!

R. Hubbell


>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Tom Sixkiller]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:NYPSb.197888$na.329502@attbi_s04...
> I get a kick out of this. Kerry was wounded 3 times in combat situations

All three of his wounds were superficial/band-aid level.

> (Shrapnel and bullets...puts him kind of close to the action, no?),

I don't see anyone denying that.

>but his
> medals were overblown and when he requested to be sent back home, as was
his
> right after being thrice wounded, he was shirking his duties,

Three superfical wounds? I've seen people receive more serious injuries
playing sports off duty.

What's more, his Silver Star was for giving the coup de grac to a VC that
was already wounded by a .50 cal. WOW!!!


> but GW was
> just a stupid youngun when he was AWOL from his cushy, daddy provided
> assignment in the ANG.

And here again comes the urban legend about Bush being AWOL...

Spoken like someone totally ignorant of the military.

>
> I swear, somebody's putting LSD in your drinking water.

Must be you putting in what you didn't injest yourself.

Kerry is certainly counting on the gullability of segments of the population
and you're providing him positive feedback.

Try digging a bit outside the mainstream press before shoving your head up
your ass.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Powell" > wrote in message
om...
> "Stuart King" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution,
in
> > the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The
> > University of Edinborough) had this to say about "The Fall of The
Athenian
> > Republic" some 2,000 years prior.
>
> Actually, the guys tame was Tytler, not Tyler. And, more importantly,
> nobody can find anything like this in his writings. Then there's the
> fact that some of it doesn't make sense (e.g., The average age of
> greatest civilizations just 200 years??? That's clearly wrong, and
> Tytler would've known it). Further, Tytler *does* write about the
> fall of Athens in "Universal History..." and he makes it clear the
> reasons Athens fell had nothing to do with this supposed "cycle of
> democracy."
>
> This entire quote from Tytler appears to be a recent fabrication.
>

Actually the quote is accurate, but the source is questionable.

I've seen attributions dating from 1765 all the way up to the 1830's. IAC,
the first part is fairly accurate, but the second part (chronology) is a
real stretch.

[Michael 182]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:NYPSb.197888$na.329502@attbi_s04...
> > I get a kick out of this. Kerry was wounded 3 times in combat situations
>
> All three of his wounds were superficial/band-aid level.

By the grace of God - does this somehow impugn his service?

>
> Three superfical wounds? I've seen people receive more serious injuries
> playing sports off duty.

And the point is?

>
> What's more, his Silver Star was for giving the coup de grac to a VC that
> was already wounded by a .50 cal. WOW!!!


>
>
> > but GW was
> > just a stupid youngun when he was AWOL from his cushy, daddy provided
> > assignment in the ANG.
>
> And here again comes the urban legend about Bush being AWOL...
>
> Spoken like someone totally ignorant of the military.
>
> >
> > I swear, somebody's putting LSD in your drinking water.
>
> Must be you putting in what you didn't injest yourself.
>
> Kerry is certainly counting on the gullability of segments of the
population
> and you're providing him positive feedback.
>
> Try digging a bit outside the mainstream press before shoving your head up
> your ass.
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:%mTSb.192917$I06.2131414@attbi_s01...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "mike regish" > wrote in message
> > news:NYPSb.197888$na.329502@attbi_s04...
> > > I get a kick out of this. Kerry was wounded 3 times in combat
situations
> >
> > All three of his wounds were superficial/band-aid level.
>
> By the grace of God - does this somehow impugn his service?

Not at all, but it does give suuport to the contention that his service was
pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor, country".

> >
> > Three superfical wounds? I've seen people receive more serious injuries
> > playing sports off duty.
>
> And the point is?

See above. When it suites his purpose, he's a "great warrior". That is
downright pathological.


>
> >
> > What's more, his Silver Star was for giving the coup de grac to a VC
that
> > was already wounded by a .50 cal. WOW!!!
>
>

[Michael 182]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:%mTSb.192917$I06.2131414@attbi_s01...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "mike regish" > wrote in message
> > > news:NYPSb.197888$na.329502@attbi_s04...
> > > > I get a kick out of this. Kerry was wounded 3 times in combat
> situations
> > >
> > > All three of his wounds were superficial/band-aid level.
> >
> > By the grace of God - does this somehow impugn his service?
>
> Not at all, but it does give suuport to the contention that his service
was
> pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor, country".

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. How does the fact that he was lucky enough
to escape with superficial wounds "give suuport to the contention that his
service was pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor,
country".

The man went to the front lines in Vietnam. If he felt that risking his life
was also a resume builder for a future career, is that somehow bad? The
military advertises everyday that joining is a step to a career, that they
build leaders, that service yields lifelong benefits.

I'm sure conservatives can find plenty to attack on John Kerry's political
life and current positions. Attacking his military service just makes the
relevant arguments look small.

Michael

Michael

[Mike Powell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message >...
>
> Actually the quote is accurate, but the source is questionable.
>
> I've seen attributions dating from 1765 all the way up to the 1830's. IAC,
> the first part is fairly accurate, but the second part (chronology) is a
> real stretch.

I disagree. The quote is neither accurate, nor attributable to
Tytler.

Yes, I know this quote is *everywhere* on the Internet and even in
quite a bit of print media (for example, see p. 68 of Bill O'Reilly's
book "Who's Looking Out for You."). But that doesn't make it true.

I have searched through Tytler's world-history writings (which is
where this would be most likely to be found). Others have searched as
well. It appears nobody can find it. Of course, it can't be *proven*
that Tytler never said or wrote such a thing -- it can only be proven
that he did. And the way one proves that he did is to produce an
exact citation for the source of the quote that others can verify.

So if you (or anyone else) are sure *any* part of the quote is "fairly
accurate," please just supply the correct citation. If you can do so,
I will be most grateful. Really, I will -- I've spent too many hours
searching for the source of the quote to feel satisfied coming away
empty-handed.

There's also the issue of whether Tytler would've been likely to say
any of the text attributed to him. Based on what I've read of his
material, I'd say it is *highly* unlikely he would've said anything
like it. The idea that the average age of the "world's greatest
civilizations" is only 200 years is rather silly and it's unlikely
Tytler would've said it. Further, Tytler discusses the Athenian
republic in great detail in his book "Universal History...". The
Athenian Republic didn't decline because the people were voting
themselves "largesse" from the public treasury. Their downfall was
due to a combination of political corruption, complacency, and getting
their butts kicked in a war. The so-called "Cycle of Democracy" had
nothing to do with it.


-Mike P.

[mike regish]

I think Bush already has that segment sown up.

mike regish

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Kerry is certainly counting on the gullability of segments of the
population
> and you're providing him positive feedback.

[Tarver Engineering]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
news:w7_Sb.150655$Rc4.1201230@attbi_s54...
> I think Bush already has that segment sown up.

As well as the election.

Kerry's clowns are now out claiming there was no threat.

> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Kerry is certainly counting on the gullability of segments of the
> population
> > and you're providing him positive feedback.
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:w7_Sb.150655$Rc4.1201230@attbi_s54...
> > I think Bush already has that segment sown up.
>
> As well as the election.
>
> Kerry's clowns are now out claiming there was no threat.

Well, that's the media, selectively quoting the Kay report. A report running
hundreds of pages and they pick one or two pages out of contet. Small wonder
they ahve no clue about the military intelligence process. No small wonder
either since they're the ones that sabotaged it (the Intelligence Community)
in the first place.

Hey, since they say no WMD's what was Bubba talking about when he said:"One
way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop
weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our
bottom line." - President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

And: "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is
clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of
mass destruction program." - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

And what was Kerry talking about when he said:

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
.... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real
...." - Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

Kerry's information is as convenient as his military "service".

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Powell" > wrote in message
m...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > Actually the quote is accurate, but the source is questionable.
> >
> > I've seen attributions dating from 1765 all the way up to the 1830's.
IAC,
> > the first part is fairly accurate, but the second part (chronology) is a
> > real stretch.
>
> I disagree. The quote is neither accurate, nor attributable to
> Tytler.
>
> Yes, I know this quote is *everywhere* on the Internet and even in
> quite a bit of print media (for example, see p. 68 of Bill O'Reilly's
> book "Who's Looking Out for You."). But that doesn't make it true.
>
> I have searched through Tytler's world-history writings (which is
> where this would be most likely to be found). Others have searched as
> well. It appears nobody can find it. Of course, it can't be *proven*
> that Tytler never said or wrote such a thing -- it can only be proven
> that he did. And the way one proves that he did is to produce an
> exact citation for the source of the quote that others can verify.
>
> So if you (or anyone else) are sure *any* part of the quote is "fairly
> accurate," please just supply the correct citation.

I'm sorry, I should have said the CONTENT was fairly accurate, not the
attribution. I have no doubt that the cite of Tyler, Tytler, Tittie, or
whomever is wrong. And as I said, the second part is really bogus regardless
of who wrote it, in either the 18th or 20th century.

So, all in all, I agree with your conclusion.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> news:w7_Sb.150655$Rc4.1201230@attbi_s54...
> > I think Bush already has that segment sown up.
>
> As well as the election.

Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
"margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's team did.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:zSUSb.150578$sv6.838635@attbi_s52...
> > > By the grace of God - does this somehow impugn his service?
> >
> > Not at all, but it does give suuport to the contention that his service
> was
> > pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor, country".
>
> I'm sorry, I just don't get it. How does the fact that he was lucky enough
> to escape with superficial wounds "give suuport to the contention that his
> service was pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor,
> country".

Well, let's see: Three (3) wounds qualify as a dismissal from the war zone,
so with wounds not much worse than paper cuts our "Heroic Warrior" cuts and
runs. Now he he displays his medals as through he was Audie Murphy.

>
> The man went to the front lines in Vietnam. If he felt that risking his
life
> was also a resume builder for a future career, is that somehow bad? The
> military advertises everyday that joining is a step to a career, that they
> build leaders, that service yields lifelong benefits.

So his action is merely self-serving? I cringe to think what he considers
the Presidency.


> I'm sure conservatives can find plenty to attack on John Kerry's political
> life and current positions. Attacking his military service just makes the
> relevant arguments look small.

Except I'm not a conservative, didn't vote for Bush and won't this year.

Try a different spin.

[Michael 182]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael 182" > wrote in message
> news:zSUSb.150578$sv6.838635@attbi_s52...
> > > > By the grace of God - does this somehow impugn his service?
> > >
> > > Not at all, but it does give suuport to the contention that his
service
> > was
> > > pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor, country".
> >
> > I'm sorry, I just don't get it. How does the fact that he was lucky
enough
> > to escape with superficial wounds "give suuport to the contention that
his
> > service was pruely for political gain, not any sense of "duty, honor,
> > country".
>
> Well, let's see: Three (3) wounds qualify as a dismissal from the war
zone,
> so with wounds not much worse than paper cuts our "Heroic Warrior" cuts
and
> runs. Now he he displays his medals as through he was Audie Murphy.

Ah, I understand now - he should have stayed until he had a life threating
injury in a war he had already come to understand was a mistake. How
obvious.

>
> >
> > The man went to the front lines in Vietnam. If he felt that risking his
> life
> > was also a resume builder for a future career, is that somehow bad? The
> > military advertises everyday that joining is a step to a career, that
they
> > build leaders, that service yields lifelong benefits.
>
> So his action is merely self-serving? I cringe to think what he considers
> the Presidency.
>

All actions, at least noble ones, are self-serving to some extent. They make
you a better person.

>
> > I'm sure conservatives can find plenty to attack on John Kerry's
political
> > life and current positions. Attacking his military service just makes
the
> > relevant arguments look small.
>
> Except I'm not a conservative, didn't vote for Bush and won't this year.

Could have fooled me from the conservative rants you post on this newsgroup.

Done here. Have fun.

Michael

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
> Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
> "margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's team
did.

Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?

[Mike Powell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message >...
>
> I'm sorry, I should have said the CONTENT was fairly accurate, not the
> attribution. I have no doubt that the cite of Tyler, Tytler, Tittie, or
> whomever is wrong. And as I said, the second part is really bogus
> regardless of who wrote it, in either the 18th or 20th century.
>
> So, all in all, I agree with your conclusion.

Ah, now I understand what you were getting at. Sorry -- I thought you
meant the quote was valid, but the date of the quote was in question
(which seemed kind of a strange argument). I should've read more
carefully.

I agree that a democracy is doomed when its citizens start "voting
themselves largesse from the public treasury." That part seems true
enough.

I think a large part of the appeal of the alleged Tytler quote is due
to the implication that an expert in world history from the early
1800s *predicted* the United States would suffer from moral decay and
"loose fiscal policy," which will be evident by the masses always
voting for whomever promises them the most kickbacks from the public
treasury. Further, he supposedly predicted this would happen in about
200 years! Amazingly this is just about equal to the age of the
United States (especially considering the fact that this quote seems
to have made its first appearance in the 1980s).

If, as I contend, Tytler had nothing to do with this quote, then it
becomes *much* less compelling. I doubt this quote would be at all
popular if, instead of Tytler, it was said to have been written by
someone in the 1980s -- especially if they had no particular knowledge
of world history as appears to be the case since the alleged quote
does not accurately describe what it's supposed to describe: the fall
of the Athenian Republic.

If instead of "Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish History Professor in
1801 wrote the following...," the quote were to read, "I was having
some beers with my cousin Hank last week and he said the
following...," then I really doubt anyone would think this quote was
worth the bandwidth used to send it along.

I guess my point here is "authorship counts." Note also how popular
the murder-rate comparison is. I doubt those numbers would be as
widely circulated if someone hadn't slipped Professor Olson's name in
front of them. People look to authorship in an effort to judge
whether an idea is likely to be true.

So if Tytler isn't the source of the quote (and I'm pretty darn sure
he isn't), suddenly it loses just about all of its credibility.

-Mike P.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
> > "margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's team
> did.
>
> Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?
>
Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that to
voter roles.

Roughly 6M to 19M IA's times 25% usage. If voter roles hold to that
estimate, particularly since the advent of "Motor Voter", it gives the
numbers mentioned.

With all the stink about CA giving IA's drivers licenses it's a moot point:
they already have them.

You didn't think "Motor Voter" was for convenience, did you? And why does
Social Services encourage recipients to use every available service?

Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June, 2001
(unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens as
well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area, etc.,
etc.

How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Powell" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > I'm sorry, I should have said the CONTENT was fairly accurate, not the
> > attribution. I have no doubt that the cite of Tyler, Tytler, Tittie, or
> > whomever is wrong. And as I said, the second part is really bogus
> > regardless of who wrote it, in either the 18th or 20th century.
> >
> > So, all in all, I agree with your conclusion.
>
> Ah, now I understand what you were getting at. Sorry -- I thought you
> meant the quote was valid, but the date of the quote was in question
> (which seemed kind of a strange argument). I should've read more
> carefully.
>
> I agree that a democracy is doomed when its citizens start "voting
> themselves largesse from the public treasury." That part seems true
> enough.
>
> I think a large part of the appeal of the alleged Tytler quote is due
> to the implication that an expert in world history from the early
> 1800s *predicted* the United States would suffer from moral decay and
> "loose fiscal policy," which will be evident by the masses always
> voting for whomever promises them the most kickbacks from the public
> treasury. Further, he supposedly predicted this would happen in about
> 200 years!

Some were quicker, some took a lot longer.

> Amazingly this is just about equal to the age of the
> United States (especially considering the fact that this quote seems
> to have made its first appearance in the 1980s).

I think Livy made generally the same point about the Roman Empire.

>
> If, as I contend, Tytler had nothing to do with this quote, then it
> becomes *much* less compelling. I doubt this quote would be at all
> popular if, instead of Tytler, it was said to have been written by
> someone in the 1980s -- especially if they had no particular knowledge
> of world history as appears to be the case since the alleged quote
> does not accurately describe what it's supposed to describe: the fall
> of the Athenian Republic.

I'm guessing he (or whoever) was referring to the Roman "Bread and Circus"
debacle.

> If instead of "Alexander Fraser Tytler, Scottish History Professor in
> 1801 wrote the following...," the quote were to read, "I was having
> some beers with my cousin Hank last week and he said the
> following...," then I really doubt anyone would think this quote was
> worth the bandwidth used to send it along.
>
> I guess my point here is "authorship counts." Note also how popular
> the murder-rate comparison is. I doubt those numbers would be as
> widely circulated if someone hadn't slipped Professor Olson's name in
> front of them. People look to authorship in an effort to judge
> whether an idea is likely to be true.

I'm not so interested in authorship (argument from authority) as whether a
quote conforms to facts of reality.

>
> So if Tytler isn't the source of the quote (and I'm pretty darn sure
> he isn't), suddenly it loses just about all of its credibility.

Not really; does historical FACT support the firt part of the quote?
Certainly the second part DOES NOT.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...

>
> Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
> numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
> votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June,
2001
> (unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens as
> well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area,
etc.,
> etc.
>
> How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?

Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.

More socilism is what will make America into Mexico, not guest workers.

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
> > > "margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's
team
> > > did.
> >
> > Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?
> >
> Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
> country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that to
> voter roles.

In all honesty, I had to read that twice to convince myself that you're not
joking about the extrapolation to voter rolls. What you say reads like a
parody of right-wing disinformation campaigns.

You cite no evidence whatsoever about illegal aliens voting--not even a
single documented instance! Instead, you mention a statistic about the
percent of illegal aliens who use social services (which you cite no source
for, but let's assume it's an accurate figure). You then propose to PRETEND
that that statistic is a complete different statistic, concerning voter
fraud instead of concerning social-service use. And for some reason, you
call this pretense "transposing".

It just goes to show that if you're willing to forego any semblance of
intellectual rigor, you can convince yourself of pretty much anything you
want to believe.

--Gary

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
> > numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
> > votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June,
> 2001
> > (unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens as
> > well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area,
> etc.,
> > etc.
> >
> > How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?
>
> Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.

What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:SlfTb.207162$na.337411@attbi_s04...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> > news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a 550K
> > > > "margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's
> team
> > > > did.
> > >
> > > Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?
> > >
> > Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
> > country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that
to
> > voter roles.
>
> In all honesty, I had to read that twice to convince myself that you're
not
> joking about the extrapolation to voter rolls. What you say reads like a
> parody of right-wing disinformation campaigns.

Too bad multiple reads don't correspond to comprehension.

>
> You cite no evidence whatsoever about illegal aliens voting--not even a
> single documented instance! Instead, you mention a statistic about the
> percent of illegal aliens who use social services (which you cite no
source
> for, but let's assume it's an accurate figure). You then propose to
PRETEND
> that that statistic is a complete different statistic, concerning voter
> fraud instead of concerning social-service use. And for some reason, you
> call this pretense "transposing".
>
> It just goes to show that if you're willing to forego any semblance of
> intellectual rigor, you can convince yourself of pretty much anything you
> want to believe.


I said they were ESTIMATES ****head. I also said the ESTIMATES raise
QUESTIONS. Some rigor you achieve in YOUR disinformation efforts.

Go get started in trying to steal the next election.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > >
> > > Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating the
> > > numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
> > > votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election, May.June,
> > 2001
> > > (unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal aliens
as
> > > well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the area,
> > etc.,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?
> >
> > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.
>
> What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?

Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating
the
> > > > numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
> > > > votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election,
May.June,
> > > 2001
> > > > (unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal
aliens
> as
> > > > well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the
area,
> > > etc.,
> > > > etc.
> > > >
> > > > How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?
> > >
> > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.
> >
> > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?
>
> Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.

Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on Mexico
from within?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Bush's idiotic "amnesty" is generating scrutiny that's indicating
> the
> > > > > numbers (estimates only) might be rather LOW. A site called
> > > > > votefraud2000.com did a study right after the 2000 election,
> May.June,
> > > > 2001
> > > > > (unfortunately it's no longer online) that covered the illegal
> aliens
> > as
> > > > > well as voting by dead people, people long since moved from the
> area,
> > > > etc.,
> > > > > etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > How many DO YOU think voted, and for whom?
> > > >
> > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since then.
> > >
> > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?
> >
> > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
>
> Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on Mexico
> from within?

Trotsky was there. The actions Mexico took in 1928 are the same ones they
are still paying for. American oil companies blew every one of their wells
in Mexico that year.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> > > > >
> > > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since
then.
> > > >
> > > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?
> > >
> > > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
> >
> > Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on
Mexico
> > from within?
>
> Trotsky was there.

So he was there...so what? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

>The actions Mexico took in 1928 are the same ones they
> are still paying for. American oil companies blew every one of their
wells
> in Mexico that year.


So how is Trotsky responsible, other than by merely "being there"?

[Gary Drescher]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> news:SlfTb.207162$na.337411@attbi_s04...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> > > news:El6Tb.153717$Rc4.1208658@attbi_s54...
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Unless Kerry can get the millions (1.2M to 3.8M...so much for a
550K
> > > > > "margin") of illegal aliens back into the voting booth like Gore's
> > team
> > > > > did.
> > > >
> > > > Would you care to cite any evidence for that assertion?
> > > >
> > > Numbers from the INS as matched with Social service access around the
> > > country (particularly CA) which runs about 25% of IA's. Transpose that
> to
> > > voter roles.
> >
> > In all honesty, I had to read that twice to convince myself that you're
> not
> > joking about the extrapolation to voter rolls. What you say reads like
a
> > parody of right-wing disinformation campaigns.
>
> Too bad multiple reads don't correspond to comprehension.
>
> >
> > You cite no evidence whatsoever about illegal aliens voting--not even a
> > single documented instance! Instead, you mention a statistic about the
> > percent of illegal aliens who use social services (which you cite no
> source
> > for, but let's assume it's an accurate figure). You then propose to
> PRETEND
> > that that statistic is a complete different statistic, concerning voter
> > fraud instead of concerning social-service use. And for some reason,
you
> > call this pretense "transposing".
> >
> > It just goes to show that if you're willing to forego any semblance of
> > intellectual rigor, you can convince yourself of pretty much anything
you
> > want to believe.
>
>
> I said they were ESTIMATES ****head.
> I also said the ESTIMATES raise QUESTIONS.

No, that's NOT what you said. Go back and read your own initial post
again--it's just one sentence long, and it's quoted in its entirety above.
You spoke of getting "millions...of illegal aliens back in to the voting
booth LIKE GORE'S TEAM DID" (empasis added). You simply asserted, as fact,
that Gore's team actually got millions of illegal aliens to vote, when in
reality you can't demonstrate EVEN A SINGLE INSTANCE. Instead, when called
on it, you resort to pretending that a statistic about social-service use is
a completely different statistic about fraudulent voting! (And now, true to
form, you supplement your embarrassingly transparent speciousness with
schoolyard name-calling.)

> Go get started in trying to steal the next election.

Your contempt for basic standards of evidence, truth, and civility is
breathtaking.

--Gary

[mike regish]

Ahhh...there we go. The first obscenity in the thread...

mike regish

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> I said they were ESTIMATES ****head. I also said the ESTIMATES raise
> QUESTIONS. Some rigor you achieve in YOUR disinformation efforts.
>
> Go get started in trying to steal the next election.
>
>

[mike regish]

But standard fare from the Bushies in these discussions...

mike regish

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:%GrTb.208840$xy6.1070719@attbi_s02...
>
> Your contempt for basic standards of evidence, truth, and civility is
> breathtaking.
>
> --Gary
>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since
then.
> > > > >
> > > > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?
> > > >
> > > > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
> > >
> > > Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on
Mexico
> > > from within?
> >
> > Trotsky was there.
>
> So he was there...so what? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?

Trotsky did almost as much damage to Mexico as he did to Russia.

> >The actions Mexico took in 1928 are the same ones they
> > are still paying for. American oil companies blew every one of their
wells
> > in Mexico that year.

> So how is Trotsky responsible, other than by merely "being there"?

What would you like to know?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse since
> then.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?
> > > > >
> > > > > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
> > > >
> > > > Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on
> Mexico
> > > > from within?
> > >
> > > Trotsky was there.
> >
> > So he was there...so what? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
>
> Trotsky did almost as much damage to Mexico as he did to Russia.

HOW??

>
> > >The actions Mexico took in 1928 are the same ones they
> > > are still paying for. American oil companies blew every one of their
> wells
> > > in Mexico that year.
>
> > So how is Trotsky responsible, other than by merely "being there"?
>
> What would you like to know?
>
Why you're being so obtuse.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse
since
> > then.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican economy?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
> > > > >
> > > > > Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism on
> > Mexico
> > > > > from within?
> > > >
> > > > Trotsky was there.
> > >
> > > So he was there...so what? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
> >
> > Trotsky did almost as much damage to Mexico as he did to Russia.
>
> HOW??

By offering the equality he delivered.

Under Trotsky's plan, 80% of all Mexican live in poverty.

Just send your money to the Government and we will all be equal. (ie poor)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse
> since
> > > then.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican
economy?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed socialism
on
> > > Mexico
> > > > > > from within?
> > > > >
> > > > > Trotsky was there.
> > > >
> > > > So he was there...so what? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
> > >
> > > Trotsky did almost as much damage to Mexico as he did to Russia.
> >
> > HOW??
>
> By offering the equality he delivered.
>
> Under Trotsky's plan, 80% of all Mexican live in poverty.

Actually, it's probably higher...but Trotsky never had contact with Mexican
officials. If there's poverty there, it's caused by the people that ACCEPTED
the "offer". For one thing, Mexico was impoverished long before Trotsky was
even BORN. The basis of poverty is cultural, which accepts the ideology that
leads to poverty.

See Henry Hazlett's _Conquest of Poverty_.

In the same vein, the American slide is not caused by the politicans, but by
the people who ELECTED them.

>
> Just send your money to the Government and we will all be equal. (ie poor)
>
Poor and stupid! :~)

http://www.poorandstupid.com/chronicle.asp

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Trotski ruined the Mexican economy and it has been curse
> > since
> > > > then.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > What exactly did Trotsky have to do with the Mexican
> economy?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Trotsky destroyed the Mexican economy with socialism.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Trotsky, huh? Not Marx or whoever it was that imposed
socialism
> on
> > > > Mexico
> > > > > > > from within?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Trotsky was there.
> > > > >
> > > > > So he was there...so what? Post hoc ergo propter hoc?
> > > >
> > > > Trotsky did almost as much damage to Mexico as he did to Russia.
> > >
> > > HOW??
> >
> > By offering the equality he delivered.
> >
> > Under Trotsky's plan, 80% of all Mexican live in poverty.
>
> Actually, it's probably higher...but Trotsky never had contact with
Mexican
> officials.

Trotsky only needed contact with the people of Mexico to do his work. Now
nearly everyone is "equal".

> If there's poverty there, it's caused by the people that ACCEPTED
> the "offer". For one thing, Mexico was impoverished long before Trotsky
was
> even BORN. The basis of poverty is cultural, which accepts the ideology
that
> leads to poverty.

You are mistaken. At the time Trotsky arrived in Mexico, the peso was 1
troy oz of ,.999 pure silver; while the dollar required $1.18 to be an oz
sterling. Today, even with three zeros shaved off the peso, you couldn't
get a pack of gum for a peso.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> > If there's poverty there, it's caused by the people that ACCEPTED
> > the "offer". For one thing, Mexico was impoverished long before Trotsky
> was
> > even BORN. The basis of poverty is cultural, which accepts the ideology
> that
> > leads to poverty.
>
> You are mistaken. At the time Trotsky arrived in Mexico, the peso was 1
> troy oz of ,.999 pure silver; while the dollar required $1.18 to be an oz
> sterling. Today, even with three zeros shaved off the peso, you couldn't
> get a pack of gum for a peso.
>

And you're confusing the value of the currency with the prosperity of the
country.

[Mike Powell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message >...
>
> I'm not so interested in authorship (argument from authority) as whether a
> quote conforms to facts of reality.
>

Generally I'm not either. But in this particular case, the quote is
made much more interesting and given much greater credence simply
because it is attributed to a history professor (aka a very smart guy)
who wrote it about 200 years ago (thus making him somewhat
prophetic... at least in the minds of some conservatives).

So because this particular quote is so often used in this unusual way
(i.e., the smart, prophetic guy part), authorship is very relevant.

Consider this: nobody *really* cares that it was Samuel Clemens (I
think) who said "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are
statistics." They don't care because the quote conveys an interesting
idea that's fully independent of who said it. In the case of the
alleged Tytler quote, however, the fact that Tytler said it is (in my
opinion, at least) an essential part of why it's so popular.

As an aside, I was given an interesting link in another newsgroup.
This is from a FAQ at the University of Edinburgh Library (where
Tytler was a professor and they maintain a large collection of his
work). Basically it says they've searched and searched but can't find
anything like the alleged quote in their collection of Tytler's work.
I think it's pretty safe to say that Tytler is *not* responsible for
this quote. Here's the link:

http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/faqs/parqs.shtml#Aftytler1


> >
> > So if Tytler isn't the source of the quote (and I'm pretty darn sure
> > he isn't), suddenly it loses just about all of its credibility.
>
> Not really; does historical FACT support the firt part of the quote?
> Certainly the second part DOES NOT.

By the first part, do you mean?:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as
a
permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up
until
the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous
gifts
from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always
votes
for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public
treasury,
with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to
loose
fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

If so, then I don't disagree - at least not much. This part seems
almost prima facie true. Where I take issue with the quote is when it
starts talking about the 200-year average life of the world's greatest
civilizations (the number just seems 5X-10X too low).

But whether historical fact supports this first part of the quote is a
wholly separate question. I'm not so sure it does. There haven't
been all that many democracies in history, so it's a bit premature to
claim they are always "temporary in nature" and that they will fall
apart only when the majority starts voting themselves "gifts." This
isn't why the Athenian republic failed. And I can't think of any
democracy that has failed principally for this reason. So I doubt
there's historical support for it.

-Mike P.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > > If there's poverty there, it's caused by the people that ACCEPTED
> > > the "offer". For one thing, Mexico was impoverished long before
Trotsky
> > was
> > > even BORN. The basis of poverty is cultural, which accepts the
ideology
> > that
> > > leads to poverty.
> >
> > You are mistaken. At the time Trotsky arrived in Mexico, the peso was 1
> > troy oz of ,.999 pure silver; while the dollar required $1.18 to be an
oz
> > sterling. Today, even with three zeros shaved off the peso, you
couldn't
> > get a pack of gum for a peso.
> >
>
> And you're confusing the value of the currency with the prosperity of the
> country.

If the money is no good, there is no way to acquire wealth.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Powell" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > I'm not so interested in authorship (argument from authority) as whether
a
> > quote conforms to facts of reality.
> >
>
> Generally I'm not either. But in this particular case, the quote is
> made much more interesting and given much greater credence simply
> because it is attributed to a history professor (aka a very smart guy)
> who wrote it about 200 years ago (thus making him somewhat
> prophetic... at least in the minds of some conservatives).

I'm not aware that those are the reasons it was given credibility. The first
time I heard it several years ago, it just had a name attached to it with no
mention of his credentials.


> So because this particular quote is so often used in this unusual way
> (i.e., the smart, prophetic guy part), authorship is very relevant.
>
> Consider this: nobody *really* cares that it was Samuel Clemens (I
> think) who said "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are
> statistics." They don't care because the quote conveys an interesting
> idea that's fully independent of who said it. In the case of the
> alleged Tytler quote, however, the fact that Tytler said it is (in my
> opinion, at least) an essential part of why it's so popular.

And that's my point. I have a wholeslew of quotes that go back to antiquity
and have no known author (note, too, how many are merely listed as
"Anonymous".

I doubt 1% of people know who Tyler/Tytler is.

>
> As an aside, I was given an interesting link in another newsgroup.
> This is from a FAQ at the University of Edinburgh Library (where
> Tytler was a professor and they maintain a large collection of his
> work). Basically it says they've searched and searched but can't find
> anything like the alleged quote in their collection of Tytler's work.
> I think it's pretty safe to say that Tytler is *not* responsible for
> this quote. Here's the link:
>
> http://www.lib.ed.ac.uk/faqs/parqs.shtml#Aftytler1
[snip]
>
> But whether historical fact supports this first part of the quote is a
> wholly separate question. I'm not so sure it does. There haven't
> been all that many democracies in history, so it's a bit premature to
> claim they are always "temporary in nature" and that they will fall
> apart only when the majority starts voting themselves "gifts." This
> isn't why the Athenian republic failed.

Not exactly, but Athens did get very lazy and complacent as they did have
what we'd call "collectivism".


> And I can't think of any
> democracy that has failed principally for this reason. So I doubt
> there's historical support for it.

Rome, and a few of the quasi-democracies in Europe. They didn't necessarily
fail, but they sure stunted themselves.

Time will tell (and I thinks that's what the quote represents).

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > > If there's poverty there, it's caused by the people that ACCEPTED
> > > > the "offer". For one thing, Mexico was impoverished long before
> Trotsky
> > > was
> > > > even BORN. The basis of poverty is cultural, which accepts the
> ideology
> > > that
> > > > leads to poverty.
> > >
> > > You are mistaken. At the time Trotsky arrived in Mexico, the peso was
1
> > > troy oz of ,.999 pure silver; while the dollar required $1.18 to be an
> oz
> > > sterling. Today, even with three zeros shaved off the peso, you
> couldn't
> > > get a pack of gum for a peso.
> > >
> >
> > And you're confusing the value of the currency with the prosperity of
the
> > country.
>
> If the money is no good, there is no way to acquire wealth.

See: The USA in the 20th century, and for the inverse, Latvia, and now Japan
and China.

[old man]

How come it's not an issue in 1992 and 1996 election.......Clinton was a
real dodger........

http://www.newbid.net/index.asp
"R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:26:51 -0800 "Tarver Engineering" >
wrote:
>
> >
> > "R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:32:15 -0800 "Tarver Engineering"
>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "Pilot Bob" > wrote in message
> > > > news:khYQb.117895$sv6.636439@attbi_s52...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Not everyone. Not my a long shot. While he did seem to shirk
> > some
> > > > > > > responsibilities, the record is not quite clear on exactly
what
> > happened.
> > > > > > > However, he *was* a youngun. I might have done a stupid thing
or
> > twenty in
> > > > > > > my younger years, too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is impossible to be AWOL from the National Guard, as drill
> > attendance was
> > > > > > optional.
> > > > >
> > > > > Call it whatever you want. The fact is that, using his father's
> > connections,
> > > > > he got placed in the National Guard to avoid the Vietnam draft and
> > even then
> > > > > did not have the balls to meet his commitment.
> > > >
> > > > There were open slots in the ANG in Texas, for anyone elidgeable.
When
> > GW's
> > >
> > > Eligible in that case meant you better be an quarterback or the son of
a
> > > rich man. Not just anyone got those slots. Everyone knew that then.
> > > It's not been forgotten by a lot of people who had loved ones that
died
> > > serving their country. I won't forget either.
> >
> > Anyone that wanted to join the Texas ANG could, excluding felons and the
> > children of Kluxers. In fact, most of the draft dodgers of the day
could
> > have joined the Guard just by relocating to a State with open slots.
> >
> > > > F-102 unit changed over to a new airplane, there was no way they
were
> > going
> > > > to pay to retrain a short timer. GW's job would have been to sit at
a
> > desk
> > > > doing nothing.
> > >
> > > Well at least you acknowledge that he decided he wasn't going to serve
his
> > country
> > > because he got a boring desk job. Any way you slice it he did not
fulfill
> > his
> > > responsibilities to his country. That's not someone I respect.
> >
> > Sure he did, but Dean dodged the draft.
> >
> >
>
>
> And look where it got him.
>
>
> R. Hubbell

[Wdtabor]

In article <YlZTb.171622$5V2.871493@attbi_s53>, "old man"
> writes:

>
>How come it's not an issue in 1992 and 1996 election.......Clinton was a
>real dodger........
>

Bush's service record is only an issue for those who do not remember the
context.

Vietnam was winding down, the Air Force, like the rest of the military, was in
a Reduction In Force. The F-102 was dangerous and expensive to maintain
compared to more modern fighters and was being phased out of the ANG as the
more modern aircraft became available to reserve units. At the same time,
flying billets were getting scarce even for career Air Force as they were RIFed
down to reserves.

Part timers like Bush were NOT going to be retrained for the more modern
fighters when there were already trained pilots being pushed out of the AF to
the reserves. The Texas ANG was done with Bush and they really didn't care if
he came to meetings or not.

I graduated from dental school the next year, in 1974. I was in the Doctor's
Draft, and was supposed to go to the Army for 2 years on graduation. Many of my
classmates were in ROTC and were obligated for 6 years because their education
had been paid for by the military. None of us went because the military no
longer needed as many dentists. Dentists who wanted to stay in were getting
RIFed out.

At that time, the National Guard and reserve units were being used more as a
transition from active duty to civilian life for career servicemen trying to
hang in long enough for their pensions, and those who were not going to make it
to retirement were pushed out to save space for those who needed the billets.

So, in the context of the times, there is nothing out of the ordinary or in any
way privleged in Bush's record. Rather, had he been retrained for the
replacement aircraft while officers already trained in them were getting RIFed
out, that would have been a sign of influence in action.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Mark S Conway]

Cut the political bull crap!!!!

Where does he stand on GA?????







"Wdtabor" > wrote in message
...
> In article <YlZTb.171622$5V2.871493@attbi_s53>, "old man"
> > writes:
>
> >
> >How come it's not an issue in 1992 and 1996 election.......Clinton was a
> >real dodger........
> >
>
> Bush's service record is only an issue for those who do not remember the
> context.
>
> Vietnam was winding down, the Air Force, like the rest of the military,
was in
> a Reduction In Force. The F-102 was dangerous and expensive to maintain
> compared to more modern fighters and was being phased out of the ANG as
the
> more modern aircraft became available to reserve units. At the same time,
> flying billets were getting scarce even for career Air Force as they were
RIFed
> down to reserves.
>
> Part timers like Bush were NOT going to be retrained for the more modern
> fighters when there were already trained pilots being pushed out of the AF
to
> the reserves. The Texas ANG was done with Bush and they really didn't care
if
> he came to meetings or not.
>
> I graduated from dental school the next year, in 1974. I was in the
Doctor's
> Draft, and was supposed to go to the Army for 2 years on graduation. Many
of my
> classmates were in ROTC and were obligated for 6 years because their
education
> had been paid for by the military. None of us went because the military no
> longer needed as many dentists. Dentists who wanted to stay in were
getting
> RIFed out.
>
> At that time, the National Guard and reserve units were being used more as
a
> transition from active duty to civilian life for career servicemen trying
to
> hang in long enough for their pensions, and those who were not going to
make it
> to retirement were pushed out to save space for those who needed the
billets.
>
> So, in the context of the times, there is nothing out of the ordinary or
in any
> way privleged in Bush's record. Rather, had he been retrained for the
> replacement aircraft while officers already trained in them were getting
RIFed
> out, that would have been a sign of influence in action.
>
> Don
>
> --
> Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
> PP-ASEL
> Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mark S Conway" > wrote in message
news:YryVb.252690$xy6.1316755@attbi_s02...
> Cut the political bull crap!!!!
>
> Where does he stand on GA?????

He'll make the "flights take off and land on time".

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote:

> "Mark S Conway" > wrote in message
> news:YryVb.252690$xy6.1316755@attbi_s02...
> > Cut the political bull crap!!!!
> >
> > Where does he stand on GA?????
>
> He'll make the "flights take off and land on time".
>
>
>

The problem is: I have known a few pilots, in similar economic status as
Kerry, who really do not share my attitude towards public airports and
GA access/pilots' rights.

It is very important to know Sen. Kerry's position and record on such
issues as:

Conversion of military airports to public use

"Security" regulations/practices

GA access to metropolitan areas.

Equal treatment at US Customs

[John Gaquin]

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote in message >
> It is very important to know Sen. Kerry's position and record on such
> issues as:
>
> Conversion of military airports to public use
>
> "Security" regulations/practices
>
> GA access to metropolitan areas.
>
> Equal treatment at US Customs

Simple determination: How big is your voting block, and when can my office
expect your check?

[Wdtabor]

In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> writes:

>
>"Mark S Conway" > wrote in message
>news:YryVb.252690$xy6.1316755@attbi_s02...
>> Cut the political bull crap!!!!
>>
>> Where does he stand on GA?????
>
>He'll make the "flights take off and land on time".
>

Anyone who can afford to fly a private plane isn't paying enough taxes.

What difference does it make if he says the right things about aviation if the
rest of his policies will make it unaffordable for anyone not married to old
money?

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG