GPS question

[Ingo K?hne]

Hello

I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?

[Don Tuite]

On 27 Jan 2004 09:26:25 -0800, (Ingo K?hne)
wrote:

>Hello
>
>I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
>question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
>availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
>provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?

They'll be decomissioned when we run out of spares.

Don

[DeltaDeltaDelta]

as far as i have heard from some ATC sources i have, the NDBs will be the
first to go and the ones least used (leats critical) are already shut down.
Omega was also turned off recenlty i heard. Then VORs will go until nothing
is left except satellites...but that won't happen for some years still
(depending on the part of the world) till all aircraft become standard
equipped with GPS gear.

Triple Delta


"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Jan 2004 09:26:25 -0800, (Ingo K?hne)
> wrote:
>
> >Hello
> >
> >I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
> >question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
> >availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
> >provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?
>
> They'll be decomissioned when we run out of spares.
>
> Don

[Roger Hamlett]

"Ingo K?hne" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello
>
> I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
> question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
> availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
> provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?
It'll happen when there is a second fully operational GPS system in place.
This is part of the reason why the EU, are moving into launching their own
constellation. Since these will use a seperate frequency, it gets away from
the possibility of a single source jamming all the systems in use
(accidentally), or a single hardware failure removing the only navigational
source.

Best Wishes

[Ron Lee]

Ground-based navaids will be here for our lifetimes. Check out the
latest Federal Radionavigation Plan

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/frp2001/default.htm

Ron Lee

[Jürgen Exner]

Ingo K?hne wrote:
> I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
> question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
> availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
> provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?

You cannot solely rely on a single navigation aid system, in particular if
it is controlled by the military.
Therefore there will always be some form of terrestial navigation aid as a
backup system.

jue

[Brian Burger]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004, J=FCrgen Exner wrote:

> Ingo K?hne wrote:
> > I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
> > question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
> > availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
> > provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?
>
> You cannot solely rely on a single navigation aid system, in particular i=
f
> it is controlled by the military.

Add to that that for non-Americans, GPS is controlled by a *foreign*
military. Decommisioning surface nav in favour of foreign-controlled GPS
is not something even friendly governments will do lightly. Hence the EU's
proposed (in progress?) parallel GPS network, as well.

The other major reason is that there are lots and lots of older aircraft
(private and commercial) that still rely on the surface nav for their
primary or only navigation insturments. Aviation GPS is not a cheap
upgrade for older but still servicable planes...

Brian.

[Thomas Borchert]

Ingo,

well, for one thing, GPS as deployed now, even with WAAS, is not
accurate enough for precision approaches, e.g. ILS replacement.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[R.Hubbell]

On 27 Jan 2004 09:26:25 -0800 (Ingo K?hne) wrote:

> Hello
>
> I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
> question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
> availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
> provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?


One of the biggest problems with GPS is that the signal is very weak and
because of that it is easily jammed. Loran-C is still around and not going
away soon. In fact the improvements in technology are giving Loran-C an
extended life. One reason for keeping Loran-C is because of the
vulnerability of GPS. So any navaids that are working now are not going
to go away soon.

We will probably see more ground-based augmentation of GPS as well.
(see differential GPS)

R. Hubbell

[Ron Lee]

"Jürgen Exner" > wrote:

>You cannot solely rely on a single navigation aid system, in particular if
>it is controlled by the military.
>Therefore there will always be some form of terrestial navigation aid as a
>backup system.
>
>jue

You might look to see how many countries have approved IFR navigation
using GPS. The use of "military controlled" is one of those
xenophobic phrases used to justify Galileo. I use GPS frequently and
I have ZERO concerns about the people who operate the system.

Ron Lee
American and proud of it

[Thomas Borchert]

Ron,

> The use of "military controlled" is one of those
> xenophobic phrases used to justify Galileo.
>

Well, I agree - and I don't.
Yes, the Galileo people have strong agenda. Yes, one might argue that
economic dependance on GPS has become so great for all people involved
that the US government cannot afford to switch it off or degrade it too
much in any case.

OTOH, US administrations have shown time and again colossal disregard
for the interests of the international community when trying to gain
personal or national benefits. So, a little distrust is understandable.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[R.Hubbell]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:42:29 +0100 "DeltaDeltaDelta" > wrote:

> as far as i have heard from some ATC sources i have, the NDBs will be the
> first to go and the ones least used (leats critical) are already shut down.
> Omega was also turned off recenlty i heard. Then VORs will go until nothing
> is left except satellites...but that won't happen for some years still
> (depending on the part of the world) till all aircraft become standard
> equipped with GPS gear.



FWIW ATC doesn't call the shots when it comes to these decisions. It's also
very unlikely that we will ever totally rely on satellites to provide nav
aids. Haveing ground and sat. is more robust.


R. Hubbell

>
> Triple Delta
>
>
> "Don Tuite" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 27 Jan 2004 09:26:25 -0800, (Ingo K?hne)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Hello
> > >
> > >I am not a real pilot, just interested in aviation and simulation. My
> > >question is if the GPS with all its accuracy and worldwide
> > >availability will soon replace all other navaids for IFR. So a little
> > >provocative: who needs VORs and NDBs anymore?
> >
> > They'll be decomissioned when we run out of spares.
> >
> > Don
>
>