Flying with kids- how young is too young?

[Paul Folbrecht]

I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).

Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.

I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
a great idea or not. TIA.

[Cockpit Colin]

Most kids will take their lead from their parents - if Mum and Dad are
freaking out the kids assume there is something to be afraid of - but if
Mum/Dad are having a great time you can usually 'con' them into enjoying it
at that age too.

Consider putting young child / parent in back - and 5 y/o in front right
(with seat right back of course (show them the wooden dip stick that you're
going to break over his knuckles if he touches the controls (with a
smile))) - you can guage reactions during taxi / runups etc - if in doubt,
do a single circuit with just parent / child in the back (then swap child
etc).

My experiances have been that despite all of our cautions and concerns ...

.... they simply just go to sleep!

Hope this helps!

CC

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.
>

[Casey Wilson]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.
>

I've talked to half a dozen people lately about flying with the kids.
Cherish F. has a four month old that she put in the back seat at three
weeks. Mike M. took his pregnant wife up and the baby right after it was
born. Richard M. had no problem with his boys when they were
toddlers --sometimes they were sound asleep before he could get the engine
started. Dr. Marcia M. (pediatrician) says to take it easy gaining or giving
up altitude so the kids can clear their ears. That is less than 500 FPM. She
said the kids are better at doing that than adults. She also recommended
something to suck on -- includng pacifiers and candy. Breast feeding would
be even better.
One crusty old geezer around here said it is important to tell the
newbie kids what to expect BEFORE you do it, including the takeoff noise,
pitch-up and so forth. He also suggested to NOT stick kids in the back seat
by themselves for the first couple of trips.
With that in mind it sounds like maybe a good idea to put one in the
front and then you get in the back with the other for a couple of trips, evn
short ones around the patch.
In short, it is a great idea. Paul F. got his PPASEL certificate in
1976 following in the propwash of his dad. Paul never hesitated taking his
kids flying with him. Now, five of his eight children has private pilots
certificates and they take their kids along. Well, three of them... the
other two aren't married yet.
On the other hand, I have a ten-year-old granddaughter that won't even
drive to the airport with me. But then, she won't ride a roller-coaster
either.

[Dan Luke]

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote:
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys
> up- they are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"-
> especially the little one.

The little one is the one you *don't* have to worry about freaking out -
he will probably go to sleep. What's worrisome is protecting his
hearing: little kids hate headsets. My 2 1/2-year old grandson thinks no
more of going for a flight than he does of going for a drive, but
keeping a headset on him is tough. And forget earplugs; he absolutely
will not stand for them.

> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would
> make it difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.

The only child I've ever seen frightened was a 10-year old Angel Flight
patient I took to Atlanta last week. Normal, low altitude bumps really
scared him. I bet your 3- and 5-year olds will be fine unless they get
airsick from a bumpy ride. Keep it ultra smooth.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[R.Hubbell]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:13:10 GMT Paul Folbrecht > wrote:

> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.
>


As always it depends on the kids. Plan a short trip the first time to
get an idea if they like it or not. When I hear "Weeeeeee!!!" on steep
short final I take that as a sign they like it a lot! I also give out
a dollar or lollipop or candy bar to every plane spotted while we're
flying. Kids have great eyes! Especially with a sweet incentive.

I treat it like going for a ride in a car. The trickiest part is
walking the ramp with them.



R. Hubbell

[BTIZ]

take them one at a time... put the parent in the back with the kid.. and
don't put the kid behind you.. front seat with a little one cannot see over
the glare shield.. use a high wing airplane so he can see the ground under
the wing.. a 3yr old may need a "car" seat.

expect them to start crying for mommy at any second.. cars are not as noisy
on the inside as airplanes are.. and headsets don't fit the little ones very
well.. especially 3yr olds.

BT

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.
>

[Michelle P]

Paul
I have flown children as young as three.
Several key items:
Take it easy in everything your do. An airline style smooth ride is your
best chance at success. Slow acceleration, slower climb out and decents
and the softest landing you can muster.
Explain everything before it happens!
Make sure there is a trusted adult on board. The child will definitely
take the lead from a trusted adult. If they are nervous then the child
will be nervous. If they are comfortable and having a good time then the
child will most likely enjoy the flight.

Take several test flights. Be prepared to make it a short flight. If the
child is not comfortable do not go or end the flight early. This
increases your chances of them going again. If you keep going and they
are not happy it could set a bad precedent for future flights.

Michelle

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this
> isn't a great idea or not. TIA.
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[A Lieberman]

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.

Paul,

I have taken my niece and nephew up. We took each one seperately. Both
are just under 2 years old.

To get them familiar with the plane, on my prior visits to their maiden
flight, we let them walk around the plane, and we identified major parts
(wing, rudder, wheels, gas tanks and so on) to make a game of it.

When they were comfortable with it, we then introduced them to getting
in the plane. This was a little harder as I have a low wing, and the
slope of the wing made them unnerved getting in. We insisted they walk
in on their own, only assistance given was I would be in the plane for
them to walk to me, and my brother inlaw was behind them so they didn't
fall back. Once they were in the plane, they were absolutely great.

My brother in law is a pilot, so he flew the plane. I held them in my
lap with just the lapbelt on. We had ear protection for them as I didn't
have child size headsets.

First flight, we never left the pattern, just made a little longer
downwind to extend the flight. We only went to 1,500 feet to see if
they would be ok with ears, and no effects. Second flight, was 15
minutes. Other then taking it easy on altitude, we did standard rate
turns so that they would know that 30 degree banks are normal.

We flew just before sunset, so turbulence was not an issue.

Both were better then my sister who remained on the ground *smile*. My
nephew absolutely loved it and my niece well could take it or leave it.
Getting him out of the plane was extremely difficult! I don't know if
they understood the "significance" of what they did, but it didn't
matter, they enjoyed it.

Really, kids do not know any better, and I believe it's the adults that
will instill the fear of flying.

Needless to say, I did set a "dangerous precedent" as now everytime I
fly down to see them, they want to take a ride my sister said. And my
answer to that, was whats the problem with that? *smile*.

Allen

[Wyatt Emmerich]

My three kids fly all the time 5, 3 and 1. Mainly they get sleepy.


"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.
>

[Brian Burger]

I took a friend, his wife, and their 5 year old son up last spring. The
kid sat in the back seat with his mom, and he loved it.

A fogbank cut the flight short, and I've been promising them a full length
sightseeing flight since. The kid's eager to go, but his mom is probably
going to bow out.

Aside from airsickness (I took extra bags!) I was most worried about the
kid chattering constantly over the intercom, because he talked non-stop on
the car ride out to the airport. I managed to impress the importance of
being quiet most of the time on him, though, and he was fine. Even asked
several times if it was OK to talk then...

(Along with 'no walking on the apron without holding an adult's hand',
because I could just picture him dashing off into another Cessna's
prop...)

I also took another friend & his 8 & 11 yr old kids up, and that was great
too. I've had more trouble from a few adult pax than the kids!

Brian.

[MRQB]

if you did that ware i fly out of your kids teeth would be rotten to many
airplanes (ohh mabye sugar free would work)


"R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:13:10 GMT Paul Folbrecht
> wrote:
>
> > I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> > are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> > little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
> >
> > Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> > difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
> >
> > I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> > that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> > taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> > vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> > a great idea or not. TIA.
> >
>
>
> As always it depends on the kids. Plan a short trip the first time to
> get an idea if they like it or not. When I hear "Weeeeeee!!!" on steep
> short final I take that as a sign they like it a lot! I also give out
> a dollar or lollipop or candy bar to every plane spotted while we're
> flying. Kids have great eyes! Especially with a sweet incentive.
>
> I treat it like going for a ride in a car. The trickiest part is
> walking the ramp with them.
>
>
>
> R. Hubbell

[C J Campbell]

Kids usually love to fly. It is their parents that cause all the trouble. I
also would go with putting the 3 year old in back with a parent and the five
year old in front. Do not let the 5 year old have the yoke, no matter how
tempting it seems. A 5 year old will like as not nose the thing over saying,
"I'm gonna crash this thing!" They are old enough to know the plane could
crash, but too young to understand that this might be a bad thing.

As far as headsets go, get some childrens' headsets if possible. If they
refuse to wear headsets it is unlikely that a short flight will cause any
significant hearing loss. The rock and roll they will listen to later will
cause much more damage.... The flight should last no longer than half an
hour. Fifteen minutes is probably better. They will quickly get bored after
that.

Small children have a tough time seeing out of any plane. Seat cushions are
all right for the 5 year old, but the three year old might be better off in
a car seat. Anyway, the novelty wears off real fast, so keep it very short.
It is far better to land with them begging for more than to have them come
away with the memory of a long, boring flight.

Once kids reach 10 or 11 they start to have a better understanding of time
and distance. They will then want to see their house, their school, their
day care, their friend's house, etc. A 5 year old will want to see all those
things, too, if you ask him, but he will be completely unable to see them
and just get frustrated.

I am particularly fortunate at Tacoma Narrows when I take kids flying. There
is a shipwreck about 10 miles south of the field. I fly out, show them the
shipwreck, and return. It is real easy to spot and they get a big kick out
of it. If you know of something way cool like that, by all means point it
out.

I have one rule that I make clear to all new passengers: If anyone, for any
reason, is not enjoying the flight, then we will return immediately.

[Big John]

Paul

Prior to taking my grand son up we did two things. First we went out
to airport and watched birds taking off and landing and he heard the
noise and saw what was happening.

We also played with his toy airplane and did all the things a boy does
with a toy airplane and emulated what he saw.

When we got airborne I sat him on my lap and let hem fly just like he
did with his toy airplane and me telling him what to do..

Loved the flight and didn't want to land. <G>

Big John


On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:13:10 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> wrote:

>I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
>are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
>little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
>Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
>difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
>I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
>that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
>taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
>vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
>a great idea or not. TIA.

[Cub Driver]

>Of course they need to be in back of the 172,

No way around this? Ideally, the 5 yr old would be in front with you,
and dad would be in back with the 3 yr old.

Or leave the 3 yr old home. Are there any decent earphones for a 3 yr
old? That's a real small, real vulnerable kid. Just learning about
fears, death, etc. At least my granddaughter is.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Nathan Young]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:13:10 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> wrote:

>I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
>are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
>little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
>Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
>difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
>I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
>that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
>taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
>vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
>a great idea or not. TIA.

I have taken my nephews up for rides at abut 2-3 years old. I put
their car seats in the back seats. Went on a smooth day. Their Dad
went along for the ride in the front seat. Headsets are an issue,
most do not fit children well, and the kids will pull it off their
head anyways. Besides that - no complaints, except the kids really
couldn't see too much out of the car seats, as it is hard for them to
see out the window. They had fun and occasionally ask Mom/Dad when
their next airplane ride will be.

I'd say go for it, but if you get to the airport and the kids (or Dad)
start freaking out, call it off. It isn't going to get better once
the fan is turning and you're hitting the bumps.

-Nathan

[Rick Durden]

Paul,

I think you might be overanalyzing the situation. Keep it short and
keep it fun.

You might go to AVweb (www.avweb.com), click on "columns", click on
the index to The Pilot's Lounge columns then scroll down to the very
first one on flying with babies and kids. It may give you some ideas.

All the best,
Rick

Paul Folbrecht > wrote in message t>...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.

[EDR]

In article >, Casey Wilson
> wrote:

> She also recommended something to suck on -- includng pacifiers
> and candy. Breast feeding would be even better.

Yes, but then I wouldn't be able to see where I was going! :-))

[Trent Moorehead]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
news:aNFRb.1163> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the
obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.

Paul,

I think you'll be fine. I just recently took my 5 year old son and wife up.
It was the first GA flight for my son and the first in a while for my wife.
My wife was much more nervous than my son, who sat in her lap in the front
seat. I had to get stern with my son about touching any controls. He was in
one of his funky moods where he likes to test his parents, but after I spoke
with him, he understood that touching anything was not allowed. He would
never be so bold with a stranger piloting the aircraft. And by stranger I
mean someone other than his parents (this would include extended family).
Now, one caveat, my son is particularly well behaved. There are some kids
that I would never take up simply because I would not be able to trust that
they would even stay in their seats with their belts buckled.

As far as ear protection, I didn't provide any for my son, and my wife wore
a headset. I didn't have muffs and I knew that ear plugs weren't going to
work and besides it was a short flight. She would extend the boom to his
mouth and I could hear him speak, it was just that answering him was a pain
since I had to yell at him. My son has never liked loud, noisy things and he
seemed fine for the whole half hour that we were up. I need to at least get
that boy some muffs for the next flight, if not a kid's headset.

I chose a perfectly calm day and kept my banks, ascents and descents to a
minimum, more for my wife than my son. I flew over our house, his preschool
and Wal-Mart, things that he would recognize. And as I had expected, they
both got very sleepy about 20 minutes into it and nearly fell asleep. I
ended the flight with one of my best and slowest landings ever. My wife was
somewhat impressed with the flight, my son not so much. He liked it, but it
was not a big deal to him. He was more interested in dinner after the
flight. Oh well, maybe when he gets older, he'll "get it".

My advice would be to make sure that the kids are able to follow directions
and behave themselves. After that, you'll be fine. My personal minimum age
limit is around 5 years old, or perhaps younger if the kid is mature and
well behaved.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[Gary Drescher]

"Trent Moorehead" > wrote in message
...
> I just recently took my 5 year old son and wife up.
> My wife was much more nervous than my son, who sat in her lap in the front
> seat.

But that's not where he was during taxiing, takeoff, or landing, right?
(FAR 91.107a3)

--Gary

[EDR]

The best advice I was given when my children were young, was to wait
until they were old enough to understand and follow directions.

Okay... we all know how difficult it is to get kids to do both at the
same time, but one or the other will suffice.

Both my kids had their first rides when they were between 2 and 3 years
of age. My son got his ride in a booster seat of a Champ. He wore a
DC10-13Y headset (and actually kept it on!) plugged into the portable
intercom.

My daughter got her ride in the backseat of a Beech Sundowner while
transporting my wife to be with her mother following my father in law's
death. The kids then rode home in the back seat while I flew. Each was
given a grease pencil and happily drew on the rear windows, which
occupied them during the hour and a half flight home.

After that trip, each time we drove past the airport, my daughter would
ask, "Daddy, are we going flying now?"

Now, when we go on trips, all they want to do is play their GameBoy's.
The one item that got their faces pressed up against the windows was
the flight along the Chicago lakeshore to and from Oshkosh last summer.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow?

I've flown a couple of kids that young. One got a little queasy after about 30
minutes, so I recommend that you take them only when there's no turbulence and
keep the flight time to 15 or 20 minutes. They'll do fine. The hardest thing with
the young ones is getting them to wear a headset. I recommend that you pick up a
cheap set of hearing protectors at Home Depot. They're light and fairly small, so
it's easier to get the kids to wear them (you don't want them to have microphones
anyway!). Mine are made by Peltor and cost about $10.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cockpit Colin wrote:
>
> Most kids will take their lead from their parents - if Mum and Dad are
> freaking out the kids assume there is something to be afraid of -

Or if Mom and Dad are working too hard to keep the kids from freaking out.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Snowbird]

Paul Folbrecht > wrote in message t>...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.

Well, it depends a lot on the attitude of the parents and
the individual kids.

We've taken up our fair share of that age group and had them
sit in back w/ the adults up front, but our daughter (who has
been flying in GA planes since age 12 weeks) is usually one
of the kids, and of course she's happy and calm. More or less.
Now that she's been allowed to sit up front and actually
manipulate the controls a few times (age 3 1/2), she keeps
lobbying for the right front seat :).

However, friends with 2 young siblings have had nothing but
fights and squabbles if the two are left in back. The
good news is in a C172, you can reach the back seat pretty
well.

Depending on the child, 5 may be old enough to sit in the
front and exercise enough self control as to not touch
anything before asking. Or, another alternative is to take
up one at a time, with the father sitting in back with the
child. (watch the CG of course).

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> Kids usually love to fly. It is their parents that cause all the trouble. I
> also would go with putting the 3 year old in back with a parent and the five
> year old in front. Do not let the 5 year old have the yoke, no matter how
> tempting it seems. A 5 year old will like as not nose the thing over saying,
> "I'm gonna crash this thing!" They are old enough to know the plane could
> crash, but too young to understand that this might be a bad thing.

FWIW, we let my daughter handle the yoke starting at age 3 1/2.
She was warned not to touch anything without explicit permission,
to stop touching immediately when told, and that if she had
any trouble remembering that or following instructions Daddy
would pull her into the back seat poco pronto. So far she's
been very good.

She doesn't nose the plane over, but she does have a hard time
flying level. We must present what a friend calls a "walrus"
track on the radar ("Wandering Aimlessly Lost over Rural US").

Of course, that's not to say there aren't 5 yr olds who
might behave as you say, and adults who would be incapable
of controlling them. I've met 5 yr olds I don't want w/in
100 ft of my plane.

Frankly, if I have doubts about the behavior of any of my prospective
front-seat pax I don't go. I have confidence in my ability to
undo or overpower a 5 yr old, but I've un-invited a couple of
large adult males when I got the sense that they thought they
knew more about flying than they did, and that they might not
be willing to accept me as pilot-in-command and the ultimate
arbiter of 'what goes' on the flight.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> Or leave the 3 yr old home. Are there any decent earphones for a 3 yr
> old?

My 3 yo daughter wears Lightspeed 20Ks. They fit her quite
well on the smallest setting. She used to wear a normal pair
of adult headsets with extra foam taped on the headband to
"fill in" the gap, but now that we've let her try the Lightspeeds
she complains like heck if we try to put anything else on her.

There are several decent headsets made specifically for children.
Some of them have swappable bands so they can be worn as the
child grows, and some adult headsets have "child size" bands
available. They might be a bit big for a very small 3 yo, but
could be filled in with foam as described above.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Cecil E. Chapman]

The first time my stepson flew with me he had just turned 5 years old.
Basically, we kept it simple and just flew a couple of circuits in the
pattern. I have some pictures of him on this flight at www.bayareapilot.com
and on some other flights he went with me.

He was a little nervous on the first take-off but then just settled in to
looking outside and talking about how the houses looked so small from 'up
here'. By the fourth or 5th circuit (he just kept asking for 'one more
time' and then he just fell asleep).

Important (I think) tip. Besides the practical aspect of providing a seat
cushion so they can see, it is also useful to helping prevent airsickness in
kids since they can see the horizon.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

Thanks again to the group for all the insights. This really helped.

Child headsets- hadn't even thought of that! I just found out that my
FBO has none but apparantly had just ordered a couple. I really doubt
the 3 yo is going to keep anything like that on his head, though.

As for the seating arrangement, I had presumed that it would be a bad
idea to have one of the kids with a yoke in front of him but after
considering this advice I see that that was hasty. The 5 yo *should* be
old enough to be able to keep his hands off it if told.

I know the 3 yo has a problem with carsickness- yeah, he goes in back. :-)

[Paul Folbrecht]

M,

I raced motocross for 12 years before hanging that up for something with
a much lesser chance of serious injury but greater chance of _really_
serious injury.

Washougal is a beautiful track- was never lucky enough to get out there
but have watched many of the MX Nationals filmed there.

(Your kid looks like a natural on the quad. For future reference,
though, posting pics to non-bin groups is considered bad form.)

> I take my 7 year old up any time i go fly he has his own headset he likes
> flying a lot. He especially likes the turbulence well bumps that make him
> float off the seat in his words. But he is a quad racer and already crazy at
> 7 years old see photo attached at washougal mx park he was 6 years old
> started him at 4.

[Philip Sondericker]

in article , Cecil E.
Chapman at wrote on 1/28/04 6:09 PM:

> The first time my stepson flew with me he had just turned 5 years old.
> Basically, we kept it simple and just flew a couple of circuits in the
> pattern. I have some pictures of him on this flight at www.bayareapilot.com
> and on some other flights he went with me.
>
> He was a little nervous on the first take-off but then just settled in to
> looking outside and talking about how the houses looked so small from 'up
> here'. By the fourth or 5th circuit (he just kept asking for 'one more
> time' and then he just fell asleep).
>
> Important (I think) tip. Besides the practical aspect of providing a seat
> cushion so they can see, it is also useful to helping prevent airsickness in
> kids since they can see the horizon.

Speaking of airsickness, one thing you mentioned brings up an interesting
point: I can't recall how many times I've seen people post about kids
falling asleep during a plane ride. It makes me wonder if it isn't a child's
natural defense against motion sickness.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
> I know the 3 yo has a problem with carsickness- yeah, he goes in back. :-)

Might want to reconsider. The motion of the plane is greater in the back seats.
I always put the person with the weakest stomach in front.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[Paul Sengupta]

Pilots?

Paul

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
> I've un-invited a couple of
> large adult males when I got the sense that they thought they
> knew more about flying than they did, and that they might not
> be willing to accept me as pilot-in-command and the ultimate
> arbiter of 'what goes' on the flight.

[Paul Sengupta]

$10 ear defenders (mentioned in another post) vs. $400 Lightspeeds.
She's starting this expensive taste thing young...

Paul

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> My 3 yo daughter wears Lightspeed 20Ks.

[Snowbird]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message >...
> $10 ear defenders (mentioned in another post) vs. $400 Lightspeeds.
> She's starting this expensive taste thing young...

Could be. I'm not sure what "ear defenders" are, exactly, but
if they're foam ear plugs, standard adult size plugs are too
big for little ears, and if you've ever worn ear plugs for extended
periods you know that if they're not a decent fit and installed
just right they can be painful.

So we don't use ear plugs.

We did, when she was an infant and slept most of the time, use
hearing protectors sold for hearing protection on the firing range,
but now that she's older, there's a big advantage for all in having
her able to communicate with us and also to listen to music.

So it's $200 Lightspeeds vs $50 headsets. Expensive taste young
might still apply.

Cheers,
Sydney

[EDR]

In article >, Snowbird
> wrote:

> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> >...
> > $10 ear defenders (mentioned in another post) vs. $400 Lightspeeds.
> > She's starting this expensive taste thing young...
>
> Could be. I'm not sure what "ear defenders" are, exactly, but
> if they're foam ear plugs, standard adult size plugs are too
> big for little ears, and if you've ever worn ear plugs for extended
> periods you know that if they're not a decent fit and installed
> just right they can be painful.

Sydney, the trick with foam earplugs is to cut them in half, lengthwise.
They are then small enough to fit in children's ears.

[R.Hubbell]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 23:39:55 -0800 "MRQB" > wrote:

> if you did that ware i fly out of your kids teeth would be rotten to many
> airplanes (ohh mabye sugar free would work)


It's not a problem. We just make sure to be vigilant with the
toothbrush.

R. Hubbell

>
>
> "R.Hubbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:13:10 GMT Paul Folbrecht
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> > > are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> > > little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
> > >
> > > Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> > > difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
> > >
> > > I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> > > that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> > > taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> > > vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> > > a great idea or not. TIA.
> > >
> >
> >
> > As always it depends on the kids. Plan a short trip the first time to
> > get an idea if they like it or not. When I hear "Weeeeeee!!!" on steep
> > short final I take that as a sign they like it a lot! I also give out
> > a dollar or lollipop or candy bar to every plane spotted while we're
> > flying. Kids have great eyes! Especially with a sweet incentive.
> >
> > I treat it like going for a ride in a car. The trickiest part is
> > walking the ramp with them.
> >
> >
> >
> > R. Hubbell
>
>

[Paul Sengupta]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> Could be. I'm not sure what "ear defenders" are

Like a headset but without the electric bits.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2EB31E37
http://www.transair.co.uk/jepdoubles/peltereardefs_big.htm

> We did, when she was an infant and slept most of the time, use
> hearing protectors sold for hearing protection on the firing range,

Those sort of things.

> but now that she's older, there's a big advantage for all in having
> her able to communicate with us and also to listen to music.

Ah...

> So it's $200 Lightspeeds vs $50 headsets. Expensive taste young
> might still apply.

:-)

Paul

[Gene Seibel]

Never too young. The younger the better. That way they won't develop a
fear of it. My daughter flew from pre-birth on.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



Paul Folbrecht > wrote in message t>...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>
> Of course they need to be in back of the 172, which would make it
> difficult for my friend to reassure them, etc.
>
> I'm especially concerned about the younger one for the obvious reason
> that 3 is pretty young. To the folks that have a lot of experience
> taking up little kids- what are the rough odds that he'll be just fine
> vs. having a cow? I need to decide if I should suggest that this isn't
> a great idea or not. TIA.

[Victor]

We take our daughter (4) and son (2) for long x-country flights.
Initialy there was a problem 2 hours into the flight but now we have a
portable DVD. Amazing nothing is heard on the intercom except the
movie sound track. They both go on the back in their car seats and
have headsets to listen to the DVD.

[Corrie]

Before we moved a month ago, I was determined to give my kids (8, 5,
and 4) a ride, so they could see their house from the air. (I haven't
flown in a few years, and they were starting to doubt that Daddy
really was a pilot, I think.) So for my birthday I got myself a BFR
and a checkout in a DA-20 Katana. Plenty of visibility for a kid in
the right seat.

We went out to the airport on a cold, cloudy, and calm day. Took them
up one at a time for a short local flight. All of them had a great
time. Mom was a super sport hanging out in the FBO with the
non-flying kids and the baby.

I let the 8-yr-old have the stick for a short time (with my hand
hovering a millimeter away). This is the kid who kicks MS Flight Sim
up to 64x and flies around the Grand Canyon pretending to be a Star
Wars podracer. When I told him to turn left, he whipped us into a
near-horizontal bank of maybe two degrees. :-D. Something about the
Real Thing got him real serious, and real cautious. But golly, they
all had a good time. Not as much fun as me, of course, getting to
watch them.

Paul Folbrecht > wrote in message t>...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>

[Charles Talleyrand]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message nk.net...
> I have a friend who really wants me to take he & his two boys up- they
> are 3 & 5. I am worried about them "freaking out"- especially the
> little one. They have never flown before (commercially or otherwise).
>

My six year old thinks flying is boring. He can read the flight clock,
and on local trips when it says more than 1/2 hour he starts to
complain. Near as I can tell he's decided that 1/2 hour is the correct
amount.

Of course when we actually fly somewhere he's better. Then he reads the
GPS ETA window and tells me how much longer we'll be in the air.

One trick is to let him talk on the radio. He requests clearences, demands
emergency action, and I think has even talked to fighter pilots.
Luckily the transmit button is in my hand, and I sometimes forget to
push it. :-) It was an unfortunate day when he discovered this.

Also, he likes to play with flashlights, even in daylight. Gameboys
work well too.

I would not worry. Three year olds will be fine. They believe everything
is safe as long as a parent is watching.

[Snowbird]

EDR > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Snowbird
> > wrote:
>
> > "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > $10 ear defenders (mentioned in another post) vs. $400 Lightspeeds.
> > > She's starting this expensive taste thing young...
> >
> > Could be. I'm not sure what "ear defenders" are, exactly, but
> > if they're foam ear plugs, standard adult size plugs are too
> > big for little ears, and if you've ever worn ear plugs for extended
> > periods you know that if they're not a decent fit and installed
> > just right they can be painful.

> Sydney, the trick with foam earplugs is to cut them in half, lengthwise.
> They are then small enough to fit in children's ears.

EDR, that solves the issue of "too big for little ears" but I wear
foam earplugs frequently, and DH deals professionally with teaching
proper use and insertion of same. So on the basis of extensive experience
with the things, we can both vouch for two things:
1) how effective they are is very dependent on whether they are
inserted correctly -- deeply enough, and in a manner which allows
them to expand fully (the mfrs will all acknowledge this)
2) how comfortable they are is very dependent on the initial "fit"
of the earplug vs. the ear then on how they are inserted. if
someone has small ears and inserts a long style too deeply, they
are PAINFUL. Likewise several styles of earplug which I can fit
in my ear, are actually a bit too large diameter and are likewise
PAINFUL.

You might not notice either factor if you've only worn earplugs for a
short time while doing a not-too-noisy activity (mowing the lawn for an
hour, say), but if you wear them for 8-10 hrs in a truly high-noise
environment both become apparent.

Since an infant is quite unable to communicate about how effective
the hearing protection is, and since it's quite difficult to sort
out "how dare you stick these things in my ear!" from "this hurts!"
in 'infantese' (and I say this as a supposedly more-empathic mother),
we consider foam ear plugs unsuitable for use in infants.

YMMV.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message >...
> "Snowbird" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Could be. I'm not sure what "ear defenders" are

> Like a headset but without the electric bits.
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?P2EB31E37
> http://www.transair.co.uk/jepdoubles/peltereardefs_big.htm

Pink! Cool! But actually, we used stock shooting-range or
industrial type hearing protectors, which are considerably
cheaper. Tasco Golden Eagle is one brand which fits a small
infant beautifully. Peltor II is another. The top does need
to be filled in w/ extra padding and a cloth, but I think that's
a benefit, just makes them more comfy for small head. They typically
cost US $15-20 through industrial safety supply places, and of
course have the benefit of being useful for adults as well.

I *think* by the time the child is old enough to register a
preference for pink or green, they are old enough that the
trip will be better if they are able to listen to their favorite
songs while flying, so I'd go for a headset at that point (they
don't need to be plugged into the ICS, one can buy various adaptors
at Radio Shack to hook a headset to an ordinary cassette or CD
player. the music will be rather soft unless one takes care of
the impedence matching issue which several archived posts explain).

I suppose I should note that my concerns arise from experience
entertaining a small child on multi-leg trips sometimes
lasting two days (ie 6-9 hrs a day flying) and that someone who
is only trying to take a child around the pattern twice might
find pink or green earmuff-style protectors the perfect solution
and music etc a needless hassle.

Last night we were in an electronic store looking at televisions,
and said small child gravitated to the portable DVD players like
a bee to nectar so I suppose soon simple music will be passe' :).
Naturally she preferred the $600 Sony to the $188 Brand X, but
at $1/wk allowance it will be some time before she can afford
either one.

Cheers,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message >...
> Pilots?

Former student pilots who had soloed and then quit. I just
got a "feeling" from them. And while I'm quite able and prepared
to backfist someone in the face and knock them out if that's what
the safety of flight requires of me, I'd strongly prefer to just
avoid situations which might require this.

S

> "Snowbird" > wrote in message
> > I've un-invited a couple of
> > large adult males when I got the sense that they thought they
> > knew more about flying than they did, and that they might not
> > be willing to accept me as pilot-in-command and the ultimate
> > arbiter of 'what goes' on the flight.

[EDR]

Ah, obviously, no one has taught you the secret trick to inserting
earplug!

Gently pinch the top of the ear between thumb and forefinger.
Gently lift upward. This straightens the ear canal for easier insertion.
Once the earplug has been compressed by rolling it between the
fingertips, it will easily fit the straightened ear canal before
expanding.