Canada overflight question

[SeeAndAvoid]

Hey all,
Anyone in the Great Lakes area familiar with the procedures for overflying
Canadian airspace? Specifically from the Detroit area to Niagara Falls, NY.
Is there a fee if you don't land in Canada? Do you still have to file a
DVFR flight plan? I can't believe you'd have to go through customs once in
NY, right?
I'd prefer to land in St. Catherines, ON , but I thought I read somewhere
that on entering Canada you have to land at first INTL airport, and I'm
assuming on return to the US I'd have to go through Niagara Falls anyway,
pay some landing/parking fee's and then play with customs, so not worth it
probably.
Flying direct saves me a few gallons, about 20mins, and avoids the whole
Cleveland Class B and curving around the south side of Lake Erie.
Any opinions?
Thanks, Chris

[Larry Fransson]

On 2004-01-28 20:45:04 -0800, "SeeAndAvoid" >
said:

> Hey all,
> Anyone in the Great Lakes area familiar with the procedures for
overflying
> Canadian airspace? Specifically from the Detroit area to Niagara Falls,
NY.
> Is there a fee if you don't land in Canada? Do you still have to file a
> DVFR flight plan? I can't believe you'd have to go through customs once
in
> NY, right?

You only need to go through customs if you land in a foreign country.

If you use Canadian air traffic services, it seems to me you'll be charged.
I know we pay for overflight, and I can't imagine that they can tell the
difference between private and commercial flights.

--
Larry Fransson
Seattle, WA

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "SeeAndAvoid" > said:
>Anyone in the Great Lakes area familiar with the procedures for overflying
>Canadian airspace? Specifically from the Detroit area to Niagara Falls, NY.
>Is there a fee if you don't land in Canada?

Yes. If you use NavCanada services (and you must) the owner of your plane
will be billed $15 for 4 months service. If you come back any time within
that 4 months, you won't be billed.

>Do you still have to file a
>DVFR flight plan?

You've never had to file DVFR - that's only for penetrating the ADIZ off
the coast. You need to be on a regular VFR flight plan, and you must be
talking to somebody (getting flight following) as you cross the border.

>I can't believe you'd have to go through customs once in
>NY, right?

No, you don't have to go through customs if you didn't land in Canada.

>I'd prefer to land in St. Catherines, ON , but I thought I read somewhere
>that on entering Canada you have to land at first INTL airport, and I'm

No, you land at any Airport of Entry. On a flight from Rochester to
London Ontario, I passed over any number of international airports (St
Catherines, Hamilton, etc) and didn't land at any of them. Same on the
way back - didn't land at Buffalo even though I flew right over it,
cleared customs at Rochester.

>assuming on return to the US I'd have to go through Niagara Falls anyway,
>pay some landing/parking fee's and then play with customs, so not worth it
>probably.

If you land in Canada and come back, you'll need a US customs sticker on
your plane. If you don't have one ahead of time, you'll need to be
carrying $50 US on your person to buy one - they don't take checks, credit
cards or Canadian money.

You can read a bit more at
http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/flying_to_canada.shtml

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Boromir, with three arrows in your chest, you ARE the Weakest Link, g'bye!"

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 04:45:04 GMT, "SeeAndAvoid"
> wrote:

>Hey all,
>Anyone in the Great Lakes area familiar with the procedures for overflying
>Canadian airspace? Specifically from the Detroit area to Niagara Falls, NY.
>Is there a fee if you don't land in Canada? Do you still have to file a
>DVFR flight plan? I can't believe you'd have to go through customs once in
>NY, right?
>I'd prefer to land in St. Catherines, ON , but I thought I read somewhere
>that on entering Canada you have to land at first INTL airport, and I'm
>assuming on return to the US I'd have to go through Niagara Falls anyway,
>pay some landing/parking fee's and then play with customs, so not worth it
>probably.
>Flying direct saves me a few gallons, about 20mins, and avoids the whole
>Cleveland Class B and curving around the south side of Lake Erie.
>Any opinions?
>Thanks, Chris

Nov 03, I flew from Chicago to Niagara. Route was around Lake
Michigan then just north of Detroit along the North side of Erie to
Niagara.

You have to be on a flightplan and talking to ATC in order to cross
the border into Canada. I filed an IFR flightplan and picked up my
clearance as I was just North of Detroit (but still on the US side).
Stayed on instruments for the remainder of the trip to Niagara. As
far as landing locations - my understanding is that as long as the
takeoff and landing airports are in the US, the overflight does not
require a customs stop. This means the takeoff and destination airport
can be anywhere in the US.

Make note that there is a restricted area over Niagara Falls.

Because of a slight wind advantage, I flew home along the South edge
of Erie and past the Buffalo and Cleveland lakeshores. Both were
accomodating with airspace transitions.

I spoke to a Canadian ATC facility, (I think Toronto Center) for the
bulk of my Canada overflight. I haven't received a bill yet, and that
was 3 months ago. So you may or may not get charged.

One thing to note: The ground based US border can have long waits.
When I went, my hotel was on the Canada side of the falls. Arriving
at about 9pm on Friday night there was no wait. However, returning at
2pm on a Sunday afternoon was brutal. A two hour wait. Next time, I
will investigate landing on the Canadian side. I believe Niagara
District Airport is a customs entry point. It is also a very nice
Drive along the river North towards the airport - very scenic.

-Nathan

[EDR]

In article >, Paul Tomblin
> wrote:

> If you land in Canada and come back, you'll need a US customs sticker on
> your plane. If you don't have one ahead of time, you'll need to be
> carrying $50 US on your person to buy one - they don't take checks, credit
> cards or Canadian money.

When did the fee increase from $25 to $50?

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, EDR > said:
>In article >, Paul Tomblin
> wrote:
>
>> If you land in Canada and come back, you'll need a US customs sticker on
>> your plane. If you don't have one ahead of time, you'll need to be
>> carrying $50 US on your person to buy one - they don't take checks, credit
>> cards or Canadian money.
>
>When did the fee increase from $25 to $50?

Oh you're right. I was thinking back to when I needed to buy a sticker
*and* pay a $25 overtime call-out fee, but we don't have to do that any
more.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Meeting, n.:
An assembly of people coming together to decide what person or
department not represented in the room must solve a problem.

[ASJ]

EDR wrote:

> In article >, Paul Tomblin
> > wrote:
>
>> If you land in Canada and come back, you'll need a US customs sticker on
>> your plane. If you don't have one ahead of time, you'll need to be
>> carrying $50 US on your person to buy one - they don't take checks,
>> credit cards or Canadian money.

I've only done it once in Great Falls Montana, but they guy didn't take
cash, only credit card.

I was annoyed since I went everywhere looking for $USD20 to pay the fee
before I left, then didn't even need it.

-Andrew

--
Andrew Stanley-Jones | "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
EE, LongEz N87KJ | -- Walt Disney

[Brad Salai]

I just did this on Sunday, in Rochester, and the customs agent offered to
take a credit card, but said he would have to mail the sticker. I paid cash,
but the credit option was available.

Brad
"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "SeeAndAvoid" > said:
> >Anyone in the Great Lakes area familiar with the procedures for
overflying
> >Canadian airspace? Specifically from the Detroit area to Niagara Falls,
NY.
> >Is there a fee if you don't land in Canada?
>
> Yes. If you use NavCanada services (and you must) the owner of your plane
> will be billed $15 for 4 months service. If you come back any time within
> that 4 months, you won't be billed.
>
> >Do you still have to file a
> >DVFR flight plan?
>
> You've never had to file DVFR - that's only for penetrating the ADIZ off
> the coast. You need to be on a regular VFR flight plan, and you must be
> talking to somebody (getting flight following) as you cross the border.
>
> >I can't believe you'd have to go through customs once in
> >NY, right?
>
> No, you don't have to go through customs if you didn't land in Canada.
>
> >I'd prefer to land in St. Catherines, ON , but I thought I read somewhere
> >that on entering Canada you have to land at first INTL airport, and I'm
>
> No, you land at any Airport of Entry. On a flight from Rochester to
> London Ontario, I passed over any number of international airports (St
> Catherines, Hamilton, etc) and didn't land at any of them. Same on the
> way back - didn't land at Buffalo even though I flew right over it,
> cleared customs at Rochester.
>
> >assuming on return to the US I'd have to go through Niagara Falls anyway,
> >pay some landing/parking fee's and then play with customs, so not worth
it
> >probably.
>
> If you land in Canada and come back, you'll need a US customs sticker on
> your plane. If you don't have one ahead of time, you'll need to be
> carrying $50 US on your person to buy one - they don't take checks, credit
> cards or Canadian money.
>
> You can read a bit more at
> http://www.rochesterflyingclub.com/flying_to_canada.shtml
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> "Boromir, with three arrows in your chest, you ARE the Weakest Link,
g'bye!"

[Dave Buckles]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> Yes. If you use NavCanada services (and you must) the owner of your plane
> will be billed $15 for 4 months service. If you come back any time within
> that 4 months, you won't be billed.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you don't pay? Will the US
really extradite you to .ca over a $15 ATC tab?

--Dave

--
Dave Buckles

http://www.flight-instruction.com

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Dave Buckles > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> Yes. If you use NavCanada services (and you must) the owner of your plane
>> will be billed $15 for 4 months service. If you come back any time within
>> that 4 months, you won't be billed.
>
>Just out of curiosity, what happens if you don't pay? Will the US
>really extradite you to .ca over a $15 ATC tab?

Next time you try and fly through Canada, you get vectored through
Washington DC, P-40, Kennebunkport ME, Crawford TX and then Area 51.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World
War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."
-- Albert Einstein

[Robert M. Gary]

Odd, I've always been able to write a check to the customs service for
my $25. Perhaps they ran your name and didn't want your check. :) I
always get the sticker, thank them and then throw it out on the way
back to the plane. My airplane is too pretty to get gooed up with a
$25 sticker. I just write a check for $25 each time I cross. In the
scheme of things, its a pretty small amount to have a customs officer
drive out to meet you.


-Robert



(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message >...
> If you land in Canada and come back, you'll need a US customs sticker on
> your plane. If you don't have one ahead of time, you'll need to be
> carrying $50 US on your person to buy one - they don't take checks, credit
> cards or Canadian money.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
>Odd, I've always been able to write a check to the customs service for
>my $25. Perhaps they ran your name and didn't want your check. :) I

To tell you the truth, our club buys the stickers, so I haven't bought one
in 7 or 8 years. Maybe things have changed.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
The biggest problem with democracy is that it is, in effect, the rule
by the whim of the moment.
-- Keith Glass

[Mike Schumann]

I flew north of Lake Erie from Detroit to Rochester NY VFR a couple of years
ago (pre 9/11). I'm not sure if anything has changed since then.

At that time, I filed a flight plan specifying "Overflight Only". I used
flight following the entire way. Most of the time I was over Canada, I was
talking to Cleveland Center. Near Niagara Falls, I got switched to Toronto
Center.

At the time I did the overflight, you only got billed for Candian ATC fees
if you landed in Canada. I also did not have to go thru customs in
Rochester, because I never landed outside the US.

I was very glad I flew over Canada, as I was in completely clear VFR
weather, while I could see major thunderstorm activity south of Lake Erie
over Cleveland.

Again, keep in mind that things may have changed.

Mike Schumann

"SeeAndAvoid" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Hey all,
> Anyone in the Great Lakes area familiar with the procedures for overflying
> Canadian airspace? Specifically from the Detroit area to Niagara Falls,
NY.
> Is there a fee if you don't land in Canada? Do you still have to file a
> DVFR flight plan? I can't believe you'd have to go through customs once
in
> NY, right?
> I'd prefer to land in St. Catherines, ON , but I thought I read somewhere
> that on entering Canada you have to land at first INTL airport, and I'm
> assuming on return to the US I'd have to go through Niagara Falls anyway,
> pay some landing/parking fee's and then play with customs, so not worth it
> probably.
> Flying direct saves me a few gallons, about 20mins, and avoids the whole
> Cleveland Class B and curving around the south side of Lake Erie.
> Any opinions?
> Thanks, Chris
>
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Mike Schumann" > said:
>At that time, I filed a flight plan specifying "Overflight Only". I used
>flight following the entire way. Most of the time I was over Canada, I was
>talking to Cleveland Center. Near Niagara Falls, I got switched to Toronto
>Center.

Funny, I've flown V82 from Buffalo to Sarnia, and I spent most of the time
talking to Toronto Center.

>At the time I did the overflight, you only got billed for Candian ATC fees
>if you landed in Canada.

That has not been true for a very long time. Any time you talk to
NavCanada controllers, you get billed. $15Cdn for the quarter.

>I also did not have to go thru customs in
>Rochester, because I never landed outside the US.

That is true.



--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
May all their sendmail.cf files be edited in notepad and returned,
only to be read at the next reboot.
-- Tom O'Neil

[Jules Beaudoin]

I have overflown Canada many, times from Buffalo to Port Huron. All you
have to do is file a regular flight plan, activate it and close it when you
get to your (US) destination. No need to talk with ATC US or CAN. But
don't land in Canada.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jules Beaudoin" > said:
>I have overflown Canada many, times from Buffalo to Port Huron. All you
>have to do is file a regular flight plan, activate it and close it when you
>get to your (US) destination. No need to talk with ATC US or CAN. But
>don't land in Canada.

Have you done this since 9/11? Because you're supposed to be talking to
somebody when you cross the border.

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/travel/canada/can02.html

"You will also have to comply with the U.S. requirement for a Mode A and C
transponder (or a waiver) and for prior contact with a U.S. ATC facility
prior to crossing the border. Failure to do this will likely result in
interception."

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If you don't pay for criminally bad software through the nose, you will
never realize how much you are being ripped off!
-- Pim van Riezen