Is this the future of our sport? [Archive]

Sean F (F2)

November 12th 12, 05:28 AM

It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.

IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.

The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally.. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.

Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.

I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.

It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.

I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.

Sean

[email protected]

November 12th 12, 07:09 AM

If I can get there in a days drive, sign me up!

P9

[email protected]

November 12th 12, 02:22 PM

Sean,
Grand prix racing works with 15 gliders or less. Any more and the midair potential is too high. There is leeching, waiting, and gaggle flying in GP racing, just like in FAI racing. By the way, FAI tasking at WGC's includes a healthy dose of turn area tasks, just like the USA nats. You suggest allowing handicaps. If so then your "first one home wins" concept is not always correct. To be this mythical "true race" then all gliders need to be the same, so you have a one design contest like they just did in South Africa with JS1s. Winning the final glide is a big component of GP racing, so having the best prepared glider is even more important than in FAI racing. This is why having a Discus 2a is essential over a 2b or LS8 when the GP contest uses standard class ships, or a Diana 2 over an ASW27 in 15m. This limits participation.
Rick Walters

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:28:22 PM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
>
>
>
> IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.
>
>
>
> The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.
>
>
>
> Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.
>
>
>
> I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.
>
>
>
> It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.
>
>
>
> I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
>
>
>
> It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.
>
>
>
> Sean

Scott Alexander[_2_]

November 12th 12, 02:46 PM

On Nov 12, 2:51*am, gotovkotzepkoi
> wrote:
> I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take
> place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this
> sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World
> Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.
>
> --
> gotovkotzepkoi

Great point. Having live feed cameras, and the ability to watch the
entire race from the ground is a huge advancement in sailplane
racing. I thought that if any country in the world would do this, it
would be the good ole United States of America. Guess I was wrong!!!
Does anyone know if the WGC at Uvalde had at least a DVD made?

CLewis95

November 12th 12, 02:46 PM

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 10:12:31 PM UTC-6, Scott Alexander wrote:
> Will this catch on in the USA?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I have SERIOUSLY proposed doing this locally in 1-26s! .. a "1-26 Grand Prix" .. close-in triangle where spectators can watch most of the race from the ground :) .. we plan to try it next season.
Curt Lewis
Genesis 2 (95)
SGS 1-26B #216

Frank Whiteley

November 12th 12, 03:19 PM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 12:51:34 AM UTC-7, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take
>
> place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this
>
> sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World
>
> Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> gotovkotzepkoi

Not for a lack of trying. It was pretty hard to penetrate the Olympics qualifying and coverage in the months leading up to the event. Won't be much better in 2016. I did mention to the SSA EXCOM that we might suggest that the IGC consider WGC moving to odd years. There is only one bid for half of the 2016 WGC and the deadline for bids has been extended.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

November 12th 12, 03:36 PM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 7:46:26 AM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
> On Nov 12, 2:51*am, gotovkotzepkoi
>
> > wrote:
>
> > I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take
>
> > place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this
>
> > sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World
>
> > Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > gotovkotzepkoi
>
>
>
> Great point. Having live feed cameras, and the ability to watch the
>
> entire race from the ground is a huge advancement in sailplane
>
> racing. I thought that if any country in the world would do this, it
>
> would be the good ole United States of America. Guess I was wrong!!!
>
> Does anyone know if the WGC at Uvalde had at least a DVD made?

AFAIK there may have been a couple of independent video efforts. We'll see.. Live feeds will become increasingly doable and capable. Spot tracking was okay, though some of the competitors had daily 'malfunctions'. It's suggested that Delorme inReach will improve this significantly, but expect both Spot and inReach to be used for some time. Iridium NEXT begins launching in 2015 if it stays on schedule. That could also make live tracking of distance sporting events much more common. Whether it's a paradigm shift isn't clear. Yellowbrick works great for a GP format and inReach may come close at a fraction of the cost may be good for other racing formats also.

Frank Whiteley

WAVEGURU

November 12th 12, 03:36 PM

Ricing looks fun!

Boggs

folken

November 12th 12, 03:50 PM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 5:12:31 AM UTC+1, Scott Alexander wrote:
> Will this catch on in the USA?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I involuntarily "participated" in one of these GPs. It was 2 years ago in Samedan. I was in a gliding camp at the same time as the GP. We ended up all soaring on the Muottas Muargi trying to gain altitude. It was a really intense hour, maintaining situational awareness with 10+ planes on the same mountain.

The event itself was spectacular and great fun. The life tracking and cockpit video feeds where gripping.

Is it commercial? yes. Can it be underappreciating of the sport? yes.

But i think it has a chance:
* Great visuals (F1 race tracks look booring!)
* Its new to the commonly accepted "world of sports".

All that is left to do is to get it onto mainstream sports TV.

my 2 cents,
- Folken

John Cochrane[_3_]

November 12th 12, 04:06 PM

On Nov 11, 11:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" > wrote:
> It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
>...
> I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
>
> It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.
>
> Sean

Why do you assume that it will not be "within" the SSA or not
sanctioned? Have you asked the SSA? Not that I'm aware. Everyone I've
talked to within SSA racing community is very supportive of Grand
Prix. The SSA hugely supported the WGC!

The issue is, I think, that it's not as "easy to set up" as you may
think. There was an effort to set up a US grand prix in Ely Nevada,
which fell apart (I gather, I'm sketchy on details) because of how
hard it was to organize. For all sorts of reasons having nothing to do
with the SSA. (It was a real grand prix, which needs IGC approval.)

This is a volunteer organization. "Someone oughta" is not that
helpful. Organize one!

Especially if all you want is sanction. There is a process for
sanctioning races that don't follow SSA rules. 1-26 are sanctioned
that way. There is a simple checklist of sensible things like "there
must be a CD," "there must be insurance" If you've planned any
sensible race and want SSA sanction, the process is pretty
straightforward. And brings many benefits, including the ssa website
and insurance.

John Cochrane

[email protected]

November 12th 12, 04:31 PM

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:28:22 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
>
>
>
> IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.
>
>
>
> The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.
>
>
>
> Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.
>
>
>
> I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.
>
>
>
> It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.
>
>
>
> I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
>
>
>
> It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.
>
>
>
> Sean

Have to disagree almost completely with Sean that a Grand Prix style contest would change much in the way we race. If leeching was such a huge problem in today's races we would talk more about it. Instead, we are contemplating special training camps to emulate team flying (leeching by another term). If not even willful flying with a partner works, how well does the leech do when the better pilot makes all the good decisions? If more variables are thrown in such as area tasks, the winning pilots invariably will be the ones that are truly deserving, especially over a multi-day contest. We all had the experience that even after a mass-start we only see other competitors around turn points and on final glide.
Since avoiding the 'start gate roulette' would be for me the only advantage of a Grand Prix - especially in a handicapped race - I'd rather stay with the rules we have.

Herb

[email protected]

November 12th 12, 04:43 PM

Short answer is YES!!!!!

I remember watching NZ GP on a middle of the night. Last day Uli Schwenck got in front, but low. If he got home first he won. I was almost ****ing my pants of the excitement. Honestly it was the best sporting event by far, that I have witnessed at home. Spectaculary produced, real excitement.

People gotta realize that gliding is dangerous. Pilots who participate, will take that calculated risk. It's not for every one, but nor is F1. Truth is, more dangerous it is, more people it draws.

November 12th 12, 05:04 PM

Scott, start your planning with a local plots event and follow with a Qualifying event.
At the moment the Australian Qualifying Grand Prix is running at my Australian club. It's the second time that the AQGP has been at Lake Keepit. A Standard Class GP is being run 1 hour behind the AQGP, but is under-subscribed.
A club event run primarily to introduce LKSC members to the GP concept was enjoyed by many pilots. With some advice from experienced GP people, this type of event should be easy to get started with.
There were at least five pilots entered in the AQGP who flew in the WGC at Uvalde, but it appears not many pilots have shown up. Sorry, I don't have a link to the SPOT page yet.
Jim

http://www.keepitsoaring.com/LKSC/index.php/2012-qualifying-grand-prix
http://www.soaringspot.com/2012gpkeepit/

John Galloway[_1_]

November 12th 12, 05:17 PM

That NZ GP was indeed great to watch but even better was
the Chilean world GP final which I watched in its entirety.
The tracking gave the watcher a 3D display (similar to
SeeYou) of the competitors rock polishing in the Andes +
live audio commentary overlaid. Highlights for me were
Sebastian Kawa pretty much every day and Tilo Holighaus's
amazing lead out and run on the last 2 legs of (IIRC) the
final day.

JPG

At 16:43 12 November 2012,
wrote:
>Short answer is YES!!!!!
>
>I remember watching NZ GP on a middle of the night.
Last day Uli Schwenck
>g=
>ot in front, but low. If he got home first he won. I was
almost ****ing my
>=
>pants of the excitement. Honestly it was the best
sporting event by far,
>th=
>at I have witnessed at home. Spectaculary produced, real
excitement.
>
>People gotta realize that gliding is dangerous. Pilots who
participate,
>wil=
>l take that calculated risk. It's not for every one, but nor
is F1. Truth
>i=
>s, more dangerous it is, more people it draws.
>
>
>

Bill D

November 12th 12, 06:15 PM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:36:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 7:46:26 AM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
>
> > On Nov 12, 2:51*am, gotovkotzepkoi
>
> >
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take
>
> >
>
> > > place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this
>
> >
>
> > > sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World
>
> >
>
> > > Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > --
>
> >
>
> > > gotovkotzepkoi
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Great point. Having live feed cameras, and the ability to watch the
>
> >
>
> > entire race from the ground is a huge advancement in sailplane
>
> >
>
> > racing. I thought that if any country in the world would do this, it
>
> >
>
> > would be the good ole United States of America. Guess I was wrong!!!
>
> >
>
> > Does anyone know if the WGC at Uvalde had at least a DVD made?
>
>
>
> AFAIK there may have been a couple of independent video efforts. We'll see. Live feeds will become increasingly doable and capable. Spot tracking was okay, though some of the competitors had daily 'malfunctions'. It's suggested that Delorme inReach will improve this significantly, but expect both Spot and inReach to be used for some time. Iridium NEXT begins launching in 2015 if it stays on schedule. That could also make live tracking of distance sporting events much more common. Whether it's a paradigm shift isn't clear. Yellowbrick works great for a GP format and inReach may come close at a fraction of the cost may be good for other racing formats also.
>
>
>
> Frank Whiteley

Frank, satellite tracking is not the only or even the best way to go. We currently have a FREE terrestrial system called APRS managed by the ARRL. For a Grand Prix race, we'd only need a "Ham" to supervise the in-glider units. They can provide real-time fixes every second or so with altitude, airspeed, rate of climb or whatever else you want. Virtually the entire US has coverage and special temporary ground station repeaters could be set up for the contest area if there are gaps in coverage. We should be doing this at every contest.

Tim Taylor

November 12th 12, 09:06 PM

On Nov 11, 10:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" > wrote:
> It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
>
> IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. *It is a pure race. *No compromise or luck involved. *Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. *No conditions improving or declining. *No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. *No excuses. *Very much like one design sailboat racing. *In other words, A REAL RACE.
>
> The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. *The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. *Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." *More like a hunt. *It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. *They have to find the lift. *You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. *It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. *This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. *It can only loosely be described as a race. *I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.
>
> Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). *Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.
>
> I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. *The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). *The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. *After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. *The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." *Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.
>
> It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. *How much fun would that be? *Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? *Maybe spot tracking would matter. * In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. *To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. *We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. *Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. *In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). *Racing is typically a time comparison, no? * We don't really have that concept in glider racing. *Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.
>
> I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
>
> It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.
>
> Sean

No limitation from the SSA that I have seen, the biggest limitations
are the financial issues. We have talked about it at Logan but the
numbers require a strong staff to do it to the level of NZ or Chile.
Here are the issues:
1. Small number of gliders
2. Technical support for tracking and broadcast
3. Chase aircraft to provide relay and photography.

Ideal is near a larger metropolitan area to attract local crowds and
sponsorship. Similar to the Chilean backdrop it would be fun to send
the pilots down to Salt Lake City on the Wasatch Front racing over the
cities below with a helicopter in tow.

Corporate sponsorship would be needed. This would be ideal under
something similar to the Red Bull, Xterra or Jeep racing series. Can
we get TV coverage to run a special on it like the Xterra or Jeep
series programs?

Anyone have the marketing background to sell this to a few sponsors?
Black Diamond is SLC based. who are the other "Adventure" Brands to
get support from?

Sean are you volunteering to organize an event? I can find the
location and crew to help run it.

Tim (TT)

Frank Whiteley

November 13th 12, 01:52 AM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 11:15:36 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:36:26 AM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > On Monday, November 12, 2012 7:46:26 AM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Nov 12, 2:51*am, gotovkotzepkoi
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I don't know whether this is the future but something needs to take
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > place fast that depicts gliding as exiting and cool. Otherwise this
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > sport is toast in the US. Look at how much publicity the World
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Championship in Texas got: just about ZERO.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > --
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > gotovkotzepkoi
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Great point. Having live feed cameras, and the ability to watch the
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > entire race from the ground is a huge advancement in sailplane
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > racing. I thought that if any country in the world would do this, it
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > would be the good ole United States of America. Guess I was wrong!!!
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Does anyone know if the WGC at Uvalde had at least a DVD made?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > AFAIK there may have been a couple of independent video efforts. We'll see. Live feeds will become increasingly doable and capable. Spot tracking was okay, though some of the competitors had daily 'malfunctions'. It's suggested that Delorme inReach will improve this significantly, but expect both Spot and inReach to be used for some time. Iridium NEXT begins launching in 2015 if it stays on schedule. That could also make live tracking of distance sporting events much more common. Whether it's a paradigm shift isn't clear. Yellowbrick works great for a GP format and inReach may come close at a fraction of the cost may be good for other racing formats also.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Frank Whiteley
>
>
>
> Frank, satellite tracking is not the only or even the best way to go. We currently have a FREE terrestrial system called APRS managed by the ARRL. For a Grand Prix race, we'd only need a "Ham" to supervise the in-glider units. They can provide real-time fixes every second or so with altitude, airspeed, rate of climb or whatever else you want. Virtually the entire US has coverage and special temporary ground station repeaters could be set up for the contest area if there are gaps in coverage. We should be doing this at every contest.

Actually, better systems may be on the horizon. Wireless mesh certainly has possibilities and is in current use by military and mining. I've watched APRS tracking. Doable.

Frank

Bob

November 13th 12, 03:15 AM

On Nov 11, 10:28*pm, "Sean F (F2)" > wrote:
> It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
>
> IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. *It is a pure race. *No compromise or luck involved. *Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. *No conditions improving or declining. *No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc. *No excuses. *Very much like one design sailboat racing. *In other words, A REAL RACE.
>
> The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. *The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. *Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." *More like a hunt. *It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. *They have to find the lift. *You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. *It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. *This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. *It can only loosely be described as a race. *I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.
>
> Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). *Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.
>
> I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. *The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). *The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. *After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. *The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." *Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.
>
> It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. *How much fun would that be? *Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? *Maybe spot tracking would matter. * In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. *To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. *We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. *Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. *In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). *Racing is typically a time comparison, no? * We don't really have that concept in glider racing. *Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.
>
> I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. *Just may not be SSA sanctioned. *I wonder how many might want to try something like this? *Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
>
> It would be pretty easy to set this up. *And potentially alot of fun. *Handicaps would work fine as well really.
>
> Sean

The Arizona Soaring Association ran GP races a couple of years, but
early in the spring. Even though conditions weren't great yet, the
contests were FUN! SPOT could be watched by spectators, family,
friends at the airport.

Bob

[email protected]

November 13th 12, 04:05 AM

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:12:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Alexander wrote:
> Will this catch on in the USA? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I heard that they ran a race like this at the Soaring Club of Houston a couple weeks ago.
They cleverly adjusted for differing gliders by adjsuting the turn radii so each flew a distance appropriate for the handicap of his glider.
Interesting concept for a fun weekend race.
UH

Tony[_5_]

November 13th 12, 12:18 PM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:05:10 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:12:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Alexander wrote:
>
> > Will this catch on in the USA? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
>
>
>
> I heard that they ran a race like this at the Soaring Club of Houston a couple weeks ago.
>
> They cleverly adjusted for differing gliders by adjsuting the turn radii so each flew a distance appropriate for the handicap of his glider.
>
> Interesting concept for a fun weekend race.
>
> UH

Steve Koerner used to have a document describing how to handicap a grand prix race with turn radii on his wingrigger.com website, but I can't find it now.

son_of_flubber

November 13th 12, 04:51 PM

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:12:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Alexander wrote:
> Will this catch on in the USA?

Where can I buy the video game? MMOG (massively multiplayer online game) is the future, either flying over a synthetic landscape or real time linked to drones flying over a real landscape. Virtual reality glasses provide wrap with around visuals will be widespread. The majority of players will want the ability to shoot down their opponents.

Ten years from now, every kid will have the equivalent of a CRAY super computer on his phone. Condor on steroids. Heck. Today's Condor is great and it runs fine on 10 year old hardware. A whole lot more is possible and it will come. Drones are going to change things.

We will always have a few folks that want to fly the old stuff in the physical world, the same as people enjoy flying 1-26s today. Winch launches will catch on with the younger generation as well... more exciting, more ecological and much cheaper. These are three factors that appeal to the young.

Craig R.

November 13th 12, 08:21 PM

How true! But before that happens, there will be adaptive cruise control and better frontal alert electronics so we can have our heads down playing with our favorite electronic toys or texting devices in the cockpit like we are doing now in our cars....

jfitch

November 15th 12, 07:57 PM

On Monday, November 12, 2012 8:05:10 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:12:31 PM UTC-5, Scott Alexander wrote:
>
> > Will this catch on in the USA? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
>
>
>
> I heard that they ran a race like this at the Soaring Club of Houston a couple weeks ago.
>
> They cleverly adjusted for differing gliders by adjsuting the turn radii so each flew a distance appropriate for the handicap of his glider.
>
> Interesting concept for a fun weekend race.
>
> UH

For a number of years, Soar Truckee has run fun, local, Grand Prix style races each summer. Initially they were not handicapped, but the more recent version are, by changing a far turnpoint radius for each glider depending on handicap. There is a specific start time, first glider home wins. It is more fun than regular racing, in my limited experience. Leeching and gaggles still occur, leeching only works if you can hang onto a glider with a faster handicap than your own - very difficult over a long flight. Equally flown gliders of differing performance spread out on the course from the start, and only come together again at the finish.

Sean F (F2)

November 15th 12, 08:55 PM

OK guys. I have had requests to organize this in a "legend" local like Parowan or Logan or Eli or Hobbs. I would love to do this (or if someone else there wants to take the reigns, GREAT!) but, I do not feel that I can successfully organize an event effectively in a location I am not residing or familiar. That will certainly come later when the format is adopted and more official.

What I am willing to do is to do is organize and manage an inaugural test or "pilot" NORTH AMERICAN GRAND PRIX CHAMPIONSHIPS in Ionia, MI or nearby next summer. I would guess 15 meter is the right glider to fly in. 10 gliders would be great, 16 greater.

Who would be interested?

I would welcome SSA support and leadership. I am hoping to prove the interest, fun and practicality of the format.

Some pretty strong pilots World level and national level pilots have shown significant interest...THIS COULD GET REALLY FUN, REALLY FAST!!!!!

ON GAGGLES: I believe that gaggles are always going to exist in soaring at some level, but I also believe that Grand Prix is a format that is LESS LIKELY to have gaggles as their is incentive to get ahead and break the group following. If a top pilot gets ahead, a lesser pilot will have a very difficult time latching on again. This is not the case in US rules and AAT's. This is, of course, my opinion. You can prove me wrong at the this upcoming Grand Prix! ;-). As its a regatta start, any glider that falls behind at the start will have a deficit (meaningful) to recoup. I think that is the real allure of this format. He who finishes the course first, wins! How COOL is that!!!!!!!!????????

ON HANDICAPS: I agree that handicap flying is not feasible (I was thinking a narrow range in 15), but if more 18 Meter guys show interest, fine! We have 6 high performance 15/18 meter glider in Ionia already. I think all of them would participate. Meaning we need roughly 10 more to fill out the event.

I am thinking of a weekend in July...Perhaps 5 days.

Again, WHO IS INTERESTED?

I can put this up on the SSA website if we get serious.

Sean

Bill D

November 15th 12, 09:44 PM

FYI, Solitaire AB has contacted the SSA regarding a US Soaring GP.
More information will follow.

Sean F (F2)

November 15th 12, 09:59 PM

Agreed Bill. We need better coverage although it is a big technical challenge and will take dedicated resources at a contest to manage (plus hardware and data costs, effort, etc).

Happy to help promote this technology.

Email smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

Bill D

November 15th 12, 11:05 PM

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 2:59:51 PM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Agreed Bill. We need better coverage although it is a big technical challenge and will take dedicated resources at a contest to manage (plus hardware and data costs, effort, etc).
>
>
>
> Happy to help promote this technology.
>
>
>
> Email smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.

Solitaire has the technology and knowhow so that's no issue. What they're doing right now is lining up sponsors - something they've done many times in motor racing. However, if someone knows a contact in a company with "green" credentials who might be interested, let me know and I'll forward it to them.

Venue TBD but it has to be telegenic.

Bill D

November 16th 12, 12:27 AM

On Thursday, November 15, 2012 4:05:24 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
> On Thursday, November 15, 2012 2:59:51 PM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> > Agreed Bill. We need better coverage although it is a big technical challenge and will take dedicated resources at a contest to manage (plus hardware and data costs, effort, etc).
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Happy to help promote this technology.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Email smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
>
>
>
> Solitaire has the technology and knowhow so that's no issue. What they're doing right now is lining up sponsors - something they've done many times in motor racing. However, if someone knows a contact in a company with "green" credentials who might be interested, let me know and I'll forward it to them.
>
>
>
> Venue TBD but it has to be telegenic.

Correction: That should be Planetaire AB, not Solitaire

Tim Taylor

November 16th 12, 06:45 AM

Sean,

If you want to take on the marketing manager/organizer role we can provide the site and contest organization (CD, tow pilots, etc) to support it. Just need someone willing to chase the contacts, sponsors and funds needed to do it right.

Late July to early August gives fantastic weather and the scenery doesn't get much better than Utah and Wyoming. As I said we can put a turn-point practically on top of the state Capitol. Watch a few of Bruno's videos. Scenery doesn't get much better than that. I think we can get a full field of 15m gliders. I have three ready to sign up already.

Tim (TT)

Sean F (F2)

November 16th 12, 02:23 PM

Tim, send me an email so I can call you on this!

Steve Koerner

November 18th 12, 07:04 AM

On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:18:44 AM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:05:10 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>

> Steve Koerner used to have a document describing how to handicap a grand prix >race with turn radii on his wingrigger.com website, but I can't find it now.

I just noticed this from a few days ago. I did remove extraneous stuff from the Wing Rigger website. And, yes, I did organize a handicapped Grand Prix race for the Arizona Soaring Association in 2008 and we flew the format again the following year. It was fun and generally successful.

The major issue that I see in Grand Prix racing is the increased collision hazard due to concentrated traffic. A potential remedy for that problem is to run heats that start at 10 minute intervals say. I would suggest heats should be limited to maybe eight gliders. Perhaps heats are organized by pilot handicap -- send the top pilots together in the first heat.

I have just now posted the referenced files that explains how we did it to my box.com account:

https://www.box.com/s/87vn8wl75dx0vuv4583f

Scott Alexander[_2_]

November 18th 12, 03:20 PM

As for Grand Prix racing...sign me up if it's within a days drive from
Clermont, Florida.

However, the intent of my original post "is this the future of our
sport?" (specifically in the USA) was more towards the live feed
cameras on each glider, so an audience could watch from the ground or
on cable TV. This has been a common practice in sailing with the
World Cup, and seems to have caught on internationally in Soaring. I
have always thought of the USA to be a leader in the world, but when
it comes this matter it seems we are behind.

I am disappointed that the World Championship in Uvalde wasn't
captured with live feed, or at a minimum a DVD to document such a
collasel and monumental event. If other countries are doing this, why
aren't we? Will we welcome this addition to our sport here in the
United States?

Scott

PS if someone can help guide me on how to connect my 48 inch flat
screen to my Desktop computer, I will bring this out to the seniors
for the contest so crews can watch the race via Spot Tracking. I can
leave it in the clubhouse for te whole week. I think a lot of crews
and wives particularly would appreciate seeing a realtime view of
where everyone is at.

[email protected]

November 18th 12, 03:24 PM

On Friday, November 16, 2012 1:45:32 AM UTC-5, Tim Taylor wrote:
> Sean,
>
>
>
> If you want to take on the marketing manager/organizer role we can provide the site and contest organization (CD, tow pilots, etc) to support it. Just need someone willing to chase the contacts, sponsors and funds needed to do it right.
>
>
>
> Late July to early August gives fantastic weather and the scenery doesn't get much better than Utah and Wyoming. As I said we can put a turn-point practically on top of the state Capitol. Watch a few of Bruno's videos. Scenery doesn't get much better than that. I think we can get a full field of 15m gliders. I have three ready to sign up already.
>
>
>
> Tim (TT)

Tim,

Don't forget to make advance arrangements to publicize the funeral(s). Good coverage should really go a long ways toward promoting our sport as a highly exciting and dangerous activity.

TA

soarski-Aspen-Dieter

November 18th 12, 04:11 PM

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 9:12:31 PM UTC-7, Scott Alexander wrote:
> Will this catch on in the USA?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Handicaping should not be a problem, During a long summer's day there could be several races during the day, either staggered or one after the other. 2 hour races maybe? This could start with very small club races around the
major clubs or Com operations, suitable airports. Self Launchers would be good aircraft for this?.... Best soaring flick I have ever seen.... In Colorado
The major ski areas run lifts during the summer. Top of the lifts/Restaurant, or points near them could be turn points. Decades ago they called them Lap races. Then already I was interested in that format.
Who wants to sit in a glider for 9 hrs to fly 1000 klicks? My problem always was my busy airport, which big jets took over, but once or twice during the summer gliders could have the airport for themselves via Notams? First of course the format has to catch ON. People must want to see this

soarski

Dan Marotta

November 18th 12, 04:45 PM

Scott,

You should be able to simply connect your laptop to your TV via an HDMI
cable and a separate audio cable. Your local electronics store should have
everything you need and be able to show you how.

Dan

"Scott Alexander" > wrote in message
...
> As for Grand Prix racing...sign me up if it's within a days drive from
> Clermont, Florida.
>
> However, the intent of my original post "is this the future of our
> sport?" (specifically in the USA) was more towards the live feed
> cameras on each glider, so an audience could watch from the ground or
> on cable TV. This has been a common practice in sailing with the
> World Cup, and seems to have caught on internationally in Soaring. I
> have always thought of the USA to be a leader in the world, but when
> it comes this matter it seems we are behind.
>
> I am disappointed that the World Championship in Uvalde wasn't
> captured with live feed, or at a minimum a DVD to document such a
> collasel and monumental event. If other countries are doing this, why
> aren't we? Will we welcome this addition to our sport here in the
> United States?
>
> Scott
>
> PS if someone can help guide me on how to connect my 48 inch flat
> screen to my Desktop computer, I will bring this out to the seniors
> for the contest so crews can watch the race via Spot Tracking. I can
> leave it in the clubhouse for te whole week. I think a lot of crews
> and wives particularly would appreciate seeing a realtime view of
> where everyone is at.

Scott Alexander[_2_]

November 18th 12, 05:28 PM

On Nov 18, 11:45*am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Scott,
>
> You should be able to simply connect your laptop to your TV via an HDMI
> cable and a separate audio cable. *Your local electronics store should have
> everything you need and be able to show you how.
>
> Dan
>
> "Scott Alexander" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > As for Grand Prix racing...sign me up if it's within a days drive from
> > Clermont, Florida.
>
> > However, the intent of my original post "is this the future of our
> > sport?" (specifically in the USA) was more towards the live feed
> > cameras on each glider, so an audience could watch from the ground or
> > on cable TV. *This has been a common practice in sailing with the
> > World Cup, and seems to have caught on internationally in Soaring. *I
> > have always thought of the USA to be a leader in the world, but when
> > it comes this matter it seems we are behind.
>
> > I am disappointed that the World Championship in Uvalde wasn't
> > captured with live feed, or at a minimum a DVD to document such a
> > collasel and monumental event. *If other countries are doing this, why
> > aren't we? Will we welcome this addition to our sport here in the
> > United States?
>
> > Scott
>
> > PS if someone can help guide me on how to connect my 48 inch flat
> > screen to my Desktop computer, I will bring this out to the seniors
> > for the contest so crews can watch the race via Spot Tracking. *I can
> > leave it in the clubhouse for te whole week. *I think a lot of crews
> > and wives particularly would appreciate seeing a realtime view of
> > where everyone is at.

I bought a cable that has a Serial Connector at one end and a HDMI
connector at the other end. It did not work. Apparently my
electronics store doesn't know what the heck they are talking about.

Waste of money! What else should I try?

Dave Springford

November 18th 12, 08:46 PM

A lot of TV's have a standard RGB computer connection on the back, If yours has this, then you can plug it in and treat it as any other monitor.

bill palmer

November 19th 12, 04:56 AM

On Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:12:31 PM UTC-8, Scott Alexander wrote:
> Will this catch on in the USA?
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc_aUMLEwNk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Awsome video!

Dan Marotta

November 19th 12, 04:59 PM

Return the cable for a refund, but first check the output on your laptop and
the input on your TV. You could even take your laptop to the store and have
them demonstrate to you what you need and how to make the connection and
with what cable.

If thay can't (or won't) do that for you, find another store.

My laptop has an output labeled "HDMI". I bought an HDMI cable at WalMart
and hooked it between my laptop and my TV. I also selected (in my case) the
HDMI-3 input on the TVs menu since that's the input the cable is connected
to. Could that be your problem?

"Scott Alexander" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 18, 11:45 am, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Scott,
>
> You should be able to simply connect your laptop to your TV via an HDMI
> cable and a separate audio cable. Your local electronics store should have
> everything you need and be able to show you how.
>
> Dan
>
> "Scott Alexander" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > As for Grand Prix racing...sign me up if it's within a days drive from
> > Clermont, Florida.
>
> > However, the intent of my original post "is this the future of our
> > sport?" (specifically in the USA) was more towards the live feed
> > cameras on each glider, so an audience could watch from the ground or
> > on cable TV. This has been a common practice in sailing with the
> > World Cup, and seems to have caught on internationally in Soaring. I
> > have always thought of the USA to be a leader in the world, but when
> > it comes this matter it seems we are behind.
>
> > I am disappointed that the World Championship in Uvalde wasn't
> > captured with live feed, or at a minimum a DVD to document such a
> > collasel and monumental event. If other countries are doing this, why
> > aren't we? Will we welcome this addition to our sport here in the
> > United States?
>
> > Scott
>
> > PS if someone can help guide me on how to connect my 48 inch flat
> > screen to my Desktop computer, I will bring this out to the seniors
> > for the contest so crews can watch the race via Spot Tracking. I can
> > leave it in the clubhouse for te whole week. I think a lot of crews
> > and wives particularly would appreciate seeing a realtime view of
> > where everyone is at.

I bought a cable that has a Serial Connector at one end and a HDMI
connector at the other end. It did not work. Apparently my
electronics store doesn't know what the heck they are talking about.

Waste of money! What else should I try?

Sean F (F2)

November 20th 12, 09:01 PM

A few comments...

I am not saying that GP racing is for everyone. Obviously only the more experienced contest pilots would be interested. So understand I am talking about that subset of the glider racing population.

With that, I ENTIRELY reject the argument that a Grand Prix sailplane starts (start line with a defined start time) are any more dangerous than a traditional cylinder start with a free start time. Think about this objectively for awhile. Consider the whole tast from pre-start, start and task.

Show me a collision or fatality example in a Grand Prix "start?" If they were "so dangerous" would not the ground beneath them be littered in broken gliders? No?

I argue GP starts are equal or even LESS dangerous than traditional start cylinders. Here is why:

TRADITIONAL CYLINDER STARTS

a) Traditional cylinder starts naturally promote extended periods of loitering around the starting cylinder (often in the leg one adjacent quadrant). This involves flying randomly from cloud to cloud, gaggle to gaggle, trying to link up with certain marker targets, following them around (leeching) and waiting for them to start. Up to 2 hours can be spent in this mode, each contest day, in close, random proximity to the entire class you are racing with. This behavior is, by itself, tremendously risky. The motivation driving this behavior for many pilots lies within traditional start rules and the freedom to start whenever you please. With that degree of freedom, it simply pays off (has been proven again and again) to identify reasonable leeching targets, follow them, wait for them to start and head out 5-20 minutes so you can then start with markers ahead and gradually leech up to them, making up that time and distance easily and therefore "winning?" the day! This is a huge part of the game unfortunately and its risk is GREATLY UNDERSTATED!!!

b) Multiply extended loitering by the other far to common practice of "fake starting" several times before "starting for real!!!". Fake starts consist of "starting" (making the radio call) and "heading out" on the first leg (wink, wink!). The trick comes when you turn around and return towards the start cylinder "furball" on the reciprocal heading of other glider which have started. Brilliant right? The goal of fake starting is to draw out others (leap into the Crocodile infested river like the Antelope in Africa) in order to sneak behind them and leech later.

Again, these pilots return to the cylinder on a heading which is literally DIRECTLY OPPOSED to the start flow. It makes me want to yawn thinking about how boring this practice is. It eats up otherwise good flying time. But the bottom line is that this behavior is a really, really bad thing to have in soaring. But It is basically DESIGNED INTO traditional cylinder starts per the “start whenever you like” rules we use (US and FAI).

Sure there are many starting options in traditional cylinder starts (out the top, etc) but, in general, we all know sailplane starts are a dangerous time. I am certain many agree. Many gliders flying in various directions with completely different idea's and focus. The risk of collision is extremely high during this period. Do not underestimate the danger of random (undefined flow) flight, with the goal of being at or near max start height for an extended period of time in a contained area...!!!

GRAND PRIX

1) Grand Prix starting (objectively) minimizes the amount of time all competing gliders spend swirling about in the randomness of the start cylinder. Less time randomly flying around equals far, far LESS RISK.

2) The Grand Prix start is also HIGHLY unlikely to result in 16 gliders wingtip to wingtip. Even if it did, all of those gliders would be acutely aware of the situation and prepared for it.

3) The best GP pilots sit back a bit (1/4 mile) to gauge how the pack branches out to various lift sources. Can’t get all the bad habits out I suppose. But any step in that direction is heroic in my opinion!

4) The GP task itself (initiated with a regatta start) is naturally going to spread out the field. The best pilots will work out ahead and do their best to STAY AHEAD. Considering traditional sailplane racing, wanting to actually be ahead of your competitors is an AMAZING CONCEPT! How sad is that? Last I checked having the goal of being ahead of your competitors was part of the definition of "RACING!"

5) As there are no AAT’s in GP, nor any value to digging into AT turnpoints for extra milage the pilots simply pip the turn points as quickly as possible and race on. No games. The “strategic” value(?) of trying to leech back up to the pilots ahead is minimized or eliminated.

6) The general strategy of grand prix racing is (astonishingly) very different from traditional sailplane "racing?" (should really be called glider time-trialing). This is primarily due to the start time tactics being removed from the strategy equation. The usual tactic of follow the pack, catch the pack is much less likely to produce a good result. Being ahead is actually AN ADVANTAGE (wow, imagine that!). Being behind is a bad thing (refreshing). The first glider across the line wins!

The flaws (in terms of racing quality) which exist so obviously in traditional (free start time) cylinder starts are eliminated. Safety is improved and racing quality is FAR higher. Fun is higher. Etc, etc.

So, these "funeral" comments (sorry Frank), etc in reference to holding a GP start...I think they are ridiculous and counterproductive. I think anyone who criticizes the thought of Grand Prix start is really criticizing traditional cylinder starts and their extended period of completely random, unpredictable risk.

It is amazing to me that so many simply assume that our existing open time procedures are more safe. I see so many flaws. Again, RISK IS A FUNCTION OF TIME. The longer you stay exposed to a risky environment, the more likely you are to endure the feared result. Our existing cylinder start methods combine high risk over extended periods of time (with pre-programmed random head on flying at the most critical point in the process). GP starts are certainly no MORE risky than this. GP starts offer FAR less time at risk.. For the few moments in which the starting gliders are in somewhat close but highly predictable proximity (the actual start), they are all moving in the exact same direction (see opposite of head on). From then on the field would be enjoying close, meaningful racing and would naturally (as natural as the varying skill of the pilots) spread out the field. And position relative to another pilot actually means something because everyone is on THE SAME CLOCK!!!

Sean

F2

[email protected]

November 20th 12, 11:03 PM

Grand Prix were originally conceived to make glider racing more of a spectator sport.

We have been running a Grand Prix series at Truckee for the last several years and they are an absolute blast - Pioneered by Sergio Colacevich, we have done close-in lap race (for spectators, friends and family) and 300km O&R formats, all with handicapping (handicap distance so first one back is the winner)

Last GP race was done from Truckee down the spine of the Sierra to Coyote Flat and return, both ways on the west side of Lake Tahoe.

Claims that GP's are safer are on shaky ground - particularly with a close-in regatta start , however Sergio had an algorthm for simultaneous start over a line at the same altitude which worked very well indeed. Safety is largely a function of how the start is organized (or more often, how it is NOT organized)

I am a big, big fan of this kind of racing. GP's can be held anywhere by anyone.

And dont think there isnt leeching or following - there are tactics in any and all kinds of racing - watch the NZ GP with Pete Harveys tactics for example , but it is close-in racing and quite exciting. Laps are particularly 'racy' as the lead can change from lap to lap.

In my experience GP's are fantastic fun and make for great stories round the camp fire in the evening.

Peter Deane (2T)

On Sunday, 11 November 2012 21:28:22 UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> It should be but almost certainly will not be within the SSA.
>
>
>
> IMO, Grand Prix glider racing is the only "true" test of competition glider pilots. It is a pure race. No compromise or luck involved. Everyone flies thru the same air at the same time essentially. No conditions improving or declining. No picking the best time to connect the clouds ahead, etc.. No excuses. Very much like one design sailboat racing. In other words, A REAL RACE.
>
>
>
> The typical US task consists of an assigned area task (aka AAT or OLC task) and the "start whenever you want" concept. The good guys ideally start 5-15 min behind the "pack" (they refer to them as markers) with the goal of leeching back up to and thru this pack. Pretty difficult to describe this as a "race." More like a hunt. It is easy to catch gliders ahead generally. They have to find the lift. You can fly right to it as they mark it once centered. It is about as "un-pure" of a "race" as you can get really. This is actually part luck, part planning and strategy and park skill. It can only loosely be described as a race. I think a hunt or a draft is almost a better description.
>
>
>
> Grand Prix RACING would be alot more fun that even FAI rules (assigned tasks). Again, the game with FAI is to start behind your competitors and leech up to them, then stay with them or pass them.
>
>
>
> I suspect that Grand Prix would be alot safer as well. The start would have everyone keenly aware of the proximity of the other gliders (spread laterally over a 3-5 mile start line). The pilots ability to time themselves into the start line accurately (not to early, or late) at the maximum altitude would separate the pack naturally from the very beginning. After that it would further string out naturally as the superior pilots pull ahead as they should. The leaders would have earned the lead and have an opportunity to get ahead, stay ahead and have that lead "ACTUALLY MEAN SOMETHING..." Large gaggles would be smaller to non-existent as the task progressed.
>
>
>
> It would be very exciting to have our "race" result in the first pilot home being the winner. How much fun would that be? Maybe a spectator could enjoy (understand) the finish for once? Maybe spot tracking would matter. In fact, the "finish" of a glider race (FAI or US) more than often means absolutely nothing. To me, without the opportunity to finishing first the experience feel less enjoyable. We are always wondering if we managed the course well, or missed something. Seeing another glider along the course means very little as to how well you are doing at that point. In fact, one typically has no idea how one is doing during the AAT task up until the scorer runs his complex software which results in a score (not a time...!). Racing is typically a time comparison, no? We don't really have that concept in glider racing. Its average speed...over widely random distances, paths, etc.
>
>
>
> I am sure someone could organize a Grand Prix contest in the US. Just may not be SSA sanctioned. I wonder how many might want to try something like this? Email me if you are smfidlerATgmailDOTcom.
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>
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> It would be pretty easy to set this up. And potentially alot of fun. Handicaps would work fine as well really.
>
>
>
> Sean

[email protected]

November 21st 12, 02:34 AM

Personally, I don't find soaring as thrilling when I'm all alone on course. When another glider comes along, my competitiveness fires up and gets my adrenaline pumping. The highlights of my day are when I'm in a gaggle and we are all blasting along against each other. Now THAT'S racing!

When I'm cruising alone, it's simply just not as fun. My best memories are when somebody else passed me, or I passed somebody else. Those moments are the ones shared around the bonfire later. Competiting with a glider alongside you doubles the fun.

I think most people will resist Grand Prix simply because it's a "change." Regardless if the rest of the world is finding it to be just as safe, or safer than the current system, or whether it's bringing more excitement or not to the sport, or themselves, doesn't matter because it's simply, a change.. I haven't heard any real good valid arguments of why it's more dangerous..

The same guys who state it's dangerous, are the same pilots who are shooting down the ridges at redline in a blaze of glory within a half wingspan of the tree tops while following the right of way rules for opposite direction traffic at closure rates of 300 mph. They argue it's safe because it's well thought through and planned out. I agree with them. And obviously if the rest of the world is grand prix racing, then that too can be just as safe as ridge racing.

Anything can be made "safe" if it's well planned out.

By the way, what "racing sports" exist where you race alone, and then compare speeds later in the day? Horse racing, car racing, reno air racing, boat racing, dog racing, marathon racing, bicycle racing, motorcycle racing ALL have a group of racers start at the exact same time. So basically any kind of "racing" is done with a group that starts and the first one across the finish line wins.....except glider racing!

[email protected]

November 21st 12, 02:44 AM

> By the way, what "racing sports" exist where you race alone, and then compare speeds later in the day?

Cycle Racing and dog sled racing.

Z

[email protected]

November 21st 12, 03:11 AM

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:45:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > By the way, what "racing sports" exist where you race alone, and then compare speeds later in the day? Cycle Racing and dog sled racing. Z

Great point! Cycle racing is most popular with the Tour De France.....where the first one to finish is the winner. The cycle racing alone is boring, nobody watches that.

Oh and I forgot to add Weiner Dog racing. I entered both of my weiner dogs in the annual Germantown, Tennessee weiner dog race. About 300 weiner dogs entered. This raised a ton of money for the humane society and was a blast. If we were racing our weiner dogs along, as opposed to grand prix style, nobody would have paid any attention.

Dave Doe

November 21st 12, 04:30 AM

In article >,
, says...
>
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 9:45:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> > > By the way, what "racing sports" exist where you race alone, and
> > > then compare speeds later in the day? Cycle Racing and dog sled
> > > racing. Z
>
> Great point! Cycle racing is most popular with the Tour De
> France.....where the first one to finish is the winner. The cycle
> racing alone is boring, nobody watches that.

Hey wash yer mouth out! :) It's actually widely watched and one of the
biggest sporting events of the year.

But anyway, I think Zen was talking about time-trial bike racing - where
it's one person at a time.

--
Duncan.

John Cochrane[_3_]

November 21st 12, 03:26 PM

I agree with a lot that Sean has to say here. To summarize, a regatta
start (within an otherwise normal ssa race) has some big attractions

No more hours of waiting around to start last. The start-last, catch-
the-gaggle and leech home strategy is gone.

Remember, we did timed starts historically mainly because the "gate"
couldn't handle everyone at the same time. That reason does not exist
anymore. The main reason we don't do timed starts now is the worry
that starting at once would increase the collision risk.

As Sean points out, that's not so obvious. Spending an hour or so in
one big gaggle, spoilers open, at start height --or, inder IGC rules,
spending that time dipping in to clouds in one big gaggle - is not so
safe either. If the start is at a fixed time, with a reasonably low
height, the gaggle will not be there for more than 5 minutes. Time is
safety here.

The second worry, which Sean doesn't mention, is the gaggle in the
first few thermals. Yes, it will be big. But we routinely fly in big
gaggles of 10-20 now, we just do it after an hour of start roulette.

I think some start carpentry can help. Here are some bright ideas:

-"Start where you are." Rather than set a time and a conventional line
or cylinder, your start fix is the first fix after start opens,
anywhere in the front half of the cylinder, with credit for distance.
When the clock hits the start time, roll out and go.

This change means no heads down time at all after the start opens. It
also eliminates the need to be right next to the edge of the start
cylinder. Your start is equally efficient no matter where you are.

Tactically, everyone will want to be near the back of the start area
rather than crowding the front edge. But that's just about trying to
leech, not trying to get the most efficient start, so it's much less
imperative to get to exactly the right point.

We don't do this in regular races because we want to separate traffic
on course from traffic that is waiting to start. But in a regatta
start, everyone is on course at the same time.

-Multiple start points. These are already allowed in US rules. With
two 3 mile cylinders, you break the fleet in half. It has all the
pluses and minuses of multiple start cylinders, but it does break up
the start gaggle and the first gaggle on course. It would also reduce
further the incentive to slow down, stick with your gaggle and try to
just beat them on final glide. The other gaggle might be faster.
Better to tear off ahead.

Note, I'm not advocating grand prix scoring here. The point is to see
if ssa regional races can be more fun for the pilots, not to make a
great crash and bash show for movies. Standard scoring is much better
for the pilots. When ahead it's better to push on for even more speed
rather than just cover the gaggle. No craziness to get past the other
guy at the finish. We can still handicap and use regular tasks, which
means more gliders can play.

I'm a little sad to read about so many regatta races being run
"informally." Ask for a waiver, and let's do this as a sanctioned
regionals! Among the many benefits of doing this, then your
experiences become part of the general racing knowledge, and your good
ideas can spread.

John Cochrane