U.S. glider operations fuel prices

[Soarin Again[_2_]]

I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.

High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
keep the sport affordable

Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an
airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current
fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the
average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of
any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter
any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?

[aerodyne]

Using the Pawnee as an example, operating costs are only driven partly
by fuel, if fuel was 12/gal vs 6/gal, tow costs would not double, but
increase by 30-50%.

If you are in Socal, have you explored the non ethanol mogas available
at Petrolock from cleargas? Mogas STC for Pawnee exists as long as no
alcohol in the mix.

I am all for ground launch, but really, clubs are the immediate short
term answer. Joining a club with a nice two seater, one can reduce
your off season and BFR cost significantly by spliting the tow fee.

aerodyne

[Bill D]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
> I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.
>
>
>
> High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
>
> Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
>
> keep the sport affordable
>
>
>
> Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an
>
> airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current
>
> fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the
>
> average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of
>
> any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter
>
> any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:12:23 PM UTC-7, aerodyne wrote:
> Using the Pawnee as an example, operating costs are only driven partly
>
> by fuel, if fuel was 12/gal vs 6/gal, tow costs would not double, but
>
> increase by 30-50%.
>
>
>
> If you are in Socal, have you explored the non ethanol mogas available
>
> at Petrolock from cleargas? Mogas STC for Pawnee exists as long as no
>
> alcohol in the mix.
>
>
>
> I am all for ground launch, but really, clubs are the immediate short
>
> term answer. Joining a club with a nice two seater, one can reduce
>
> your off season and BFR cost significantly by spliting the tow fee.
>
>
>
> aerodyne

Mogas STC does not apply to the Pawnee D airframe.

Frank Whiteley

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

On Nov 20, 12:30*pm, Soarin Again > wrote:
> I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.
>
> High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
> Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
> keep the sport affordable
>

Boy, there is a lot of editorial mixed up with facts there!

Our club flies out of a 1600' runway. Winch would mean buying $1
million or more of land.

Winch means more people. OK, if you have people wiling to work for
free (or not count the actual cost of their time) good for you. If
we're talking about a commercial operation, it's not at all clear that
two more employees at x per hour is cost effective.

John Cochrane

[Bill D]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 2:23:57 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:
> On Nov 20, 12:30*pm, Soarin Again > wrote:
>
> > I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.
>
> >
>
> > High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
>
> > Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
>
> > keep the sport affordable
>
> >
>
>
>
> Boy, there is a lot of editorial mixed up with facts there!
>
>
>
> Our club flies out of a 1600' runway. Winch would mean buying $1
>
> million or more of land.
>
>
>
> Winch means more people. OK, if you have people wiling to work for
>
> free (or not count the actual cost of their time) good for you. If
>
> we're talking about a commercial operation, it's not at all clear that
>
> two more employees at x per hour is cost effective.
>
>
>
> John Cochrane

Sorry, John. With respect, it's your facts are mixed up. Unless you're considering wing-down takeoffs, the minimum winch crew is exactly the same as aero tow - pilot, winch operator, wing runner. The wing runner or winch operator can retrieve the rope. Unlike aero tow, more people can be used effectively with winch launch but they're not absolutely necessary.

As for your airfield, well that's your situation. Others have different situations. And, the economics very much favor the winch.

[Bill D]

Oh yes, about airport land. I'll bet way back when the 1600' was bought, someone suggested buying more land for a longer runway. The response was probably, "No way - that would mean buy $5,000 or more of land." Today, that looks like it would have been a bargain. In 50 years, $1 million will look like a bargain.

[Bill D]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 12:12:23 PM UTC-7, aerodyne wrote:
> Using the Pawnee as an example, operating costs are only driven partly
>
> by fuel, if fuel was 12/gal vs 6/gal, tow costs would not double, but
>
> increase by 30-50%.

That's direct fuel cost. The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

[aerodyne]

> That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the
earlier models made 20 years or so prior? The bulk of the fleet I'd
wager.

Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel
cost? I doubt that. Show me the numbers!

[Karen]

On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne > wrote:
> > That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.
>
> OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the
> earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd
> wager.
>
> Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel
> cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!

Re Numbers:
Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt
wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy
grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals
$1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get
with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the
1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.
Karen Henderson.

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote:
Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson.

Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more.

It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it!

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...

Kirk
66

[GM]

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to high fuel cost over there.
>>> But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... <<<
Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

[Karen]

On Nov 22, 6:18*am, GM > wrote:
> On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen, the oUS has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... Kirk 66
>
> Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to high fuel cost over there.>>> But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... <<<
>
> Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)
>
> Uli

Re: Land costs

We lived on the side of a hill when we bought the winch from Fault
line Flyers in TX. We leased the 13 acres from a farmer in front of
the house. Would lob my spouse into the pattern at lunch in a vintage
2-33 w/nose hook into the pattern when the turkey vultures would
appear. He soared till sunset off an 800 ft vault, land and put his a/
c away by himself. Walk back up to the house in time for dinner.
Pretty bas One other comment about these winch addicts. Living in a
tourist town, we get pilots from the soaring world all over. Unless
they are super high time glider pilots, the Europeans win hands down
every week for working weak and low lift. 757 Capt Ingo Sturhan from
Deutschland "got off" the winch launch half way down the runway and
half way up because he knew he flew through a thermal. Circled to
12,800 ft departed east for AZ and came home 4.5 hrs later. Amazing.

[Bill D]

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:31:23 AM UTC-7, Karen wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne > wrote:
>
> > > That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.
>
> >
>
> > OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the
>
> > earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd
>
> > wager.
>
> >
>
> > Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel
>
> > cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!
>
>
>
> Re Numbers:
>
> Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt
>
> wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy
>
> grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals
>
> $1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get
>
> with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the
>
> 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.
>
> Karen Henderson.

Please, Karen take care with wing down takeoffs. Yes it can 'work' but the safety margins are tiny. If the slightest drag develops on the down wing, the opposite wing will accelerate leading to a very ugly ground loop or worse. A CG hook won't keep the glider straight like a nose hook. You're literally playing Russian Roulette - people have died.

[Bill D]

>
> But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
> > Kirk
>
> 66

This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.

However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.

[Karen]

On Nov 22, 7:33*am, Bill D > wrote:
> On Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:31:23 AM UTC-7, Karen wrote:
> > On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne > wrote:
>
> > > > That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.
>
> > > OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the
>
> > > earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd
>
> > > wager.
>
> > > Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel
>
> > > cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!
>
> > Re Numbers:
>
> > Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt
>
> > wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy
>
> > grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals
>
> > $1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get
>
> > with *the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the
>
> > 1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.
>
> > Karen Henderson.
>
> Please, Karen take care with wing down takeoffs. *Yes it can 'work' but the safety margins are tiny. *If the slightest drag develops on the down wing, the opposite wing will accelerate leading to a very ugly ground loop or worse. *A CG hook won't keep the glider straight like a nose hook. *You're literally playing Russian Roulette - people have died.

Good point. US Postmaster here with a day off, so have time today to
surf & read and post. When we read the paper Bill D sent us re
accelerated roll rates starting with a wing down, we modified
procedures not to launch w/o runner in any cross-wind situation. More
the guys invented a device to hold the tail of a taildragger down so
it wouldn't slam down during takeoff. No the geniuses are trying to
come up with some kind of fall away stand for one wing in the absence
of a runner. Problem so far is, it falls away in a crosswind before
slack is even taken up.Two wing stands, one on each wing, was deemed
not safe. We also do a slow 1-2-3 start to raise a wing since reading
your research. Thank you. Karen

[Dan Marotta]

I drove a Pawnee yesterday (10 tows) and it is a LOT more fun than driving a
winch, which I haven't done in over 10 years. From the glider end of the
rope, however, I'd *much* rather be connected to a winch or truck (runway
length permitting, of course).


"GM" > wrote in message
...
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 8:58:59 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote: Get with the
> program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the 1930's. The little
> UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen Henderson. Karen,
> the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German clubs
> use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago (they
> were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that has
> too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never make
> it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St
> Louis - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700'
> just a bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both
> ends preventing extending much more. It's a nice option, though. Fun, too!
> If you can do it, go for it! But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than
> a winch... Kirk 66

Kirk, you may be right - there are a handfull of clubs in Germany which do
not use a winch due to space constraints but out of about 900 active clubs
reported by the DAeC, that is a negligble number. Tha vast majority uses
winching as their main launch method due to cost reasons - mainly due to
high fuel cost over there.
>>> But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... <<<
Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-)

Uli

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 09:00:21 -0800, Karen wrote:

> Good point. US Postmaster here with a day off, so have time today to
> surf & read and post. When we read the paper Bill D sent us re
> accelerated roll rates starting with a wing down, we modified procedures
> not to launch w/o runner in any cross-wind situation.
>
Rewrite that to "We won't do a winch launch without a wing runner in ANY
circumstances". Please!

> More the guys
> invented a device to hold the tail of a taildragger down so it wouldn't
> slam down during takeoff.
>
Why? A tail-dragger's tail never slams down (after all it's already on
the ground) but, on a winch launch, some gliders can snap-rotate on lift-
off if you don't know what you're doing. I know this applies to Libelles
and Ka-8s, but there are probably others that do it too. Fast rotation
rotation at lift-off is dangerous and its prevention is one of the things
that the recent UK winch launch safety campaign emphasized.

As for nose-wheel gliders, the only type we ever hold the tail down for
is the DG-500/505. If you don't have fingers on the top of its fin to
keep the tail-wheel on the ground, it WILL slam its tail down as the
winch gets all-out.

This doesn't happen with the other two-seat nose-sitters I've flown:
ASK-13, ASK-21, Grob G-103 Acro and Puchacz. In fact these do the
opposite: you may need a bit of back stick to pick the nose up and get
the glider nicely balanced on the main wheel before it lifts off.

I think I know what I'm talking about here: the number of aero tows I do
a year can usually be counted on the fingers of one hand. All the rest
are winched.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

A good many years ago I did a careful analysis of hours flown against
launch costs in the UK. It came ouit that the lowest lauch cost per hour
flown was found at the most expensive all aerotow sites because the soared
more often. Haven't repeated it recently but I'd be surprised if it's
changed.

At 13:58 22 November 2012, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:31:23 PM UTC+1, Karen wrote:
>Get with the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the
1930's.
>=
>The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport. Karen
>Henders=
>on.
>
>Karen, the US has been doing it since the 1930s, too. And not all German
>c=
>lubs use a winch - I visited a nice soaring club near Aachen a week ago
>(th=
>ey were flying everything from a DG-1000 to an open cockpit oldie) that
>has=
> too short runways to consider a winch - the price of land would never
>make=
> it economical. We have almost the same problem at our club here in St
>Lou=
>is - we own a big grass strip, perfect for aerotowing, but at 2700' just
a
>=
>bit too short for "get away" winching - and we have roads at both ends
>prev=
>enting extending much more.
>
>It's a nice option, though. Fun, too! If you can do it, go for it!
>
>But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch...
>
>Kirk
>66
>
>

[kirk.stant]

But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... <<< Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli

OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky!

Cheers!

Kirk
66

[GM]

On Friday, November 23, 2012 5:38:00 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... <<< Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky! Cheers! Kirk 66

Hi Kirk

we are having a ton of fun with our home-built winch here at the Carolina Soaring Association. Being in the middle of NASCAR-country, we gave ours a bit of a 'red-neck' touch! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K26F69HdbmE
or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUL5SSZhWzA
The 'not-so-fun' part of driving a winch is when it continuesly breaks down and one has to constantly tinker with it. Properly engineered and built winches are fun to operate and - like flying the tow-plane or instructing - is a great way to give back to the club.

Safe soaring,

Uli

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, November 24, 2012 6:34:01 PM UTC-7, GM wrote:
> On Friday, November 23, 2012 5:38:00 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> > But a Pawnee is a LOT more fun to drive than a winch... <<< Oh really?? Drive one lately? ;-) Uli OK, you got me, Uli - I haven't driven a winch, but have been on the other end several times (mainly in Germany) and I agree it's a lot of fun on the "pulled" end. But you will have to convince me that being at the "pulling" end (even though it must be a fun way to get your friends up in the air) of a winch is more fun than driving a big ole noisy taildragger around the sky! Cheers! Kirk 66
>
>
>
> Hi Kirk
>
>
>
> we are having a ton of fun with our home-built winch here at the Carolina Soaring Association. Being in the middle of NASCAR-country, we gave ours a bit of a 'red-neck' touch! See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K26F69HdbmE
>
> or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUL5SSZhWzA
>
> The 'not-so-fun' part of driving a winch is when it continuesly breaks down and one has to constantly tinker with it. Properly engineered and built winches are fun to operate and - like flying the tow-plane or instructing - is a great way to give back to the club.
>
>
>
> Safe soaring,
>
>
>
> Uli

I have an appreciation for the high plains of Colorado I would not have otherwise had I not spent a lot of time driving the club winch. The Larks are wonderful. The antelope are okay. The occasional badger is interesting. Then there are the soaring birds. The cougars don't appear in the day time. The occasional escaped llama provides something to chase.

As there can be a couple of wind shears between the ground and 2000agl, it's never dull. Now if more pilots would listen when I tell them to turn left at the top of the launch to catch the thermal, it would be even better. Too many turn right for the house thermal, which isn't there when it's to the left;^)

Frank

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:37:45 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

> This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.

> However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.

Bill, my comments are in no way meant to infer that I object to winch launching - I really wish our club had room for one, and I think it is the future our sport. We need the "excitement" of winch launching to draw people into our sport, and it sure is a fun way to start a flight. That being said, I also really enjoy flying a Pawnee or a Supercub. So in my perfect world/glider club, we would have both!

Kirk
66

[Bill D]

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:12:02 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:37:45 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
>
>
>
> > This is by far the main, but rarely spoken, reason for objecting to winch launch.
>
>
>
> > However, it's wrong. I've done a lot of both and I'd much rather be in a nice winch.
>
>
>
> Bill, my comments are in no way meant to infer that I object to winch launching - I really wish our club had room for one, and I think it is the future our sport. We need the "excitement" of winch launching to draw people into our sport, and it sure is a fun way to start a flight. That being said, I also really enjoy flying a Pawnee or a Supercub. So in my perfect world/glider club, we would have both!
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing.

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:

"If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."

Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

It's a bit more complicated when non-glider pilots are used for club tow pilots. Basically they are getting paid in flying time in interesting airplanes. Seems to work, but as our clubs chief tow pilot, I prefer using glider pilots as towpilots.

Back to winches, I've read that British clubs have had good luck with professional winch drivers, getting more consistent launches and less issues with scheduling winch drivers on good soaring days.

Kirk
66

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 15:03:08 -0800, kirk.stant wrote:

> Back to winches, I've read that British clubs have had good luck with
> professional winch drivers, getting more consistent launches and less
> issues with scheduling winch drivers on good soaring days.
>
My club has both - club members on weekends and professionals during the
week when almost everybody who is on the field wants to fly. I can't say
I've noticed a huge difference in competence.

Those who've been launched a lot off Skylaunch winches say thats about
the best and that their control system adds a lot of consistency. I've
had one or two launches off them, but not enough to form an opinion. Our
own winches are Supacats and totally dependent on the driver's skill.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bill D]

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:03:09 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
>
>
>
> "If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."
>
>
>
> Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.

> Kirk
>
> 66

Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

If the winch is well designed, there is no need for a professional winch operator. In fact, I think it's dangerous to let someone operate a winch if they're not a pilot. Anyone with the talent to become a pilot can be trained to operate a winch.

[Dan Marotta]

Bill, you're missing the point or just messing with us tow pilots. Flying
the Pawnee is not my hobby, it's my contribution to the sport. Some people
mow the grass, some clean the club house, some instruct, some fly the tug.
I'd rather fly the tug than drive the winch since I get the "view from
above" and the challenge of landing the Pawnee in a 15 kt cross wind. On
the other hand, it's a lot easier to climb in/out of a winch, and you don't
get the excitement of having your nose pointed at the ground by some
ham-fisted wannabe.

"Bill D" > wrote in message
...
> On Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:03:09 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:31:15 PM UTC+1, Bill D wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> "If you enjoy flying the Pawnee so much, you should volunteer to split
>> the tow cost with the glider pilot you're towing."
>>
>>
>>
>> Since I'm a club member, and pay club dues, that's essentially what we
>> do. And the time I spend towing is time I can't spend flying my own
>> glider, or giving rides in club gliders, etc. So it all works out.
>
>> Kirk
>>
>> 66
>
> Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also
> pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with
> him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.
>
> If the winch is well designed, there is no need for a professional winch
> operator. In fact, I think it's dangerous to let someone operate a winch
> if they're not a pilot. Anyone with the talent to become a pilot can be
> trained to operate a winch.
>

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:49:47 PM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:

> Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.

No, my "hobby" is flying gliders. I "enjoy" flying towplanes. By your logic, an airline pilot who enjoys flying his 777 should pay his passengers for giving him a job. Interesting concept, but a bit too Marxist for most of us...

I guess I owe the US citizenry a lot of cash for all the years I spent zooming around in various military aircraft!

Back to your argument that it's tow pilots that are preventing the adoption of winches at many US glider clubs - I find that a bit hard to swallow. Tow pilots don't usually run a glider club - especially if they are not also glider pilots. They may not like the idea of being replaced by a motor and some string, but as glider pilots and club members, they can recognize the financial advantages of the winch over a towplane. Our club has a mix of glider/tow pilots, and non-glider towpilots, and If we decided we could no longer afford our towplanes the non-glider pilots would simply continue with their other flying jobs.

Kirk
66

[Bill D]

On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Bill, you're -snip- just messing with us tow pilots.

Of course I am.

[Bill D]

On Monday, November 26, 2012 10:08:24 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Sunday, November 25, 2012 5:49:47 PM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:
>
>
>
> > Presumably, the glider pilot also pays dues so that's a wash. He also pays for the aero tow which you don't. You should split the tow fee with him since your 'hobby' is flying Pawnees.
>
>
>
> No, my "hobby" is flying gliders. I "enjoy" flying towplanes. By your logic, an airline pilot who enjoys flying his 777 should pay his passengers for giving him a job. -snip-

Yep, the oldest game in aviation - free flying.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, November 26, 2012 11:34:02 AM UTC-6, Bill D wrote:

> Yep, the oldest game in aviation - free flying.

Free flying is the quintessential oxymoron.

Kirk
66

[Ventus_a]

On Nov 22, 7:33*am, Bill D wrote:
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 6:31:23 AM UTC-7, Karen wrote:
On Nov 20, 2:25*pm, aerodyne wrote:

That's direct fuel cost. *The non-fuel costs are also driven by the price of fuel - but indirectly as pass thru.

OK - so the Pawnee D does not have the STC - what about all the

earlier models made 20 years or so prior? *The bulk of the fleet I'd

wager.

Insurance, maintenance, and hanger rent driven proportionaly by fuel

cost? *I doubt that. *Show me the numbers!

Re Numbers:

Yesterday in NV, mom & pop commercial FBO. One of ths launches in 15kt

wind to 1,900 ft agl, ASK21, two pilots, one winch driver, (busy

grandmother of 12), one $10,000 winch, 28 ounces of premium gas equals

$1 fuel costs. (And who needs a wing runner on a paved runway?) Get

with *the program USA. The Germans have been doing it since the

1930's. The little UK still does more flights than we do per airport.

Karen Henderson.

Please, Karen take care with wing down takeoffs. *Yes it can 'work' but the safety margins are tiny. *If the slightest drag develops on the down wing, the opposite wing will accelerate leading to a very ugly ground loop or worse. *A CG hook won't keep the glider straight like a nose hook. *You're literally playing Russian Roulette - people have died.

Good point. US Postmaster here with a day off, so have time today to
surf & read and post. When we read the paper Bill D sent us re
accelerated roll rates starting with a wing down, we modified
procedures not to launch w/o runner in any cross-wind situation. More
the guys invented a device to hold the tail of a taildragger down so
it wouldn't slam down during takeoff. No the geniuses are trying to
come up with some kind of fall away stand for one wing in the absence
of a runner. Problem so far is, it falls away in a crosswind before
slack is even taken up.Two wing stands, one on each wing, was deemed
not safe. We also do a slow 1-2-3 start to raise a wing since reading
your research. Thank you. Karen

At my club in NZ I've used my wing wheel upside down and secured to the ground with a weight to rest the wing on for a no runner winch launch in my Ventus a. The wing rolls of the wheel real nice. To make sure the wing stays in place before the launch commences I/we use a lightly weighted cushion on top of the wing towards the trailing edge. It gets left behind just fine on the all out call

:-) Colin

[Dan Marotta]

Now I'm chuckling. Ya done good!

BTW, my towing pays for my glider insurance, hangar, and tows for the year.
My wife says I'm "living the dream", and it's true!


"Bill D" > wrote in message
...
> On Monday, November 26, 2012 9:55:56 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Bill, you're -snip- just messing with us tow pilots.
>
> Of course I am.

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > "Dan Marotta" > writes:

>Bill, you're missing the point or just messing with us tow pilots. Flying
>the Pawnee is not my hobby, it's my contribution to the sport. Some people
>mow the grass, some clean the club house, some instruct, some fly the tug.
>I'd rather fly the tug than drive the winch since I get the "view from
>above" and the challenge of landing the Pawnee in a 15 kt cross wind. On
>the other hand, it's a lot easier to climb in/out of a winch, and you don't
>get the excitement of having your nose pointed at the ground by some
>ham-fisted wannabe.

As an aside, I once considered towing, since I found out that it can be
done with a private license, but was seriously put off when I read of some
of the bad things that can happen -- such as a glider pulling ones tail up
at a low altitude.

Having read about that, I have become more sensitive to what I am doing
at the back end of the rope, but also a lot less willing to fly a towplane.

I would love to read more of your thoughts as an experienced/active tow
pilot of these risks.

Alan

[Bill D]

On Monday, November 26, 2012 11:23:00 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

> As an aside, I once considered towing, since I found out that it can be
>
> done with a private license, but was seriously put off when I read of some
>
> of the bad things that can happen -- such as a glider pulling ones tail up
>
> at a low altitude.
>
>
>
> Having read about that, I have become more sensitive to what I am doing
>
> at the back end of the rope, but also a lot less willing to fly a towplane.
>
>
>
> I would love to read more of your thoughts as an experienced/active tow
>
> pilot of these risks.
>
>
>
> Alan

The following is based on an in-depth study of NTSB reports for the last 10 years (2001 - 2011)looking at accidents directly involving aero towing gliders. This is for 130,000 - 140,000 tows per year.

49 NTSB reports.
14 tow pilot fatalities.
13 glider pilot fatalities.
21 serious injuries.

OTOH, Germany's ~900 clubs did between 800,000 and 1,000,000 winch launches last year for just 5 accidents with 3 fatalities. Reference: DAeC and BFU, Germany's SSA and NTSB equivalents respectively.

[Dieter B]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
> I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.
>
>
>
> High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
>
> Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
>
> keep the sport affordable
>
>
>
> Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an
>
> airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current
>
> fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the
>
> average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of
>
> any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter
>
> any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?



The Germans did not have tow planes when they were allowed to fly again after WWII. They needed to use winches to fly. So they found the infrastructures for them. The Doernberg in Germany works great with winches but the terrain is not good for tow planes. I operated a Com operation for decades with 2 Tugs, have thousands of hours in them, always preferred to fly the glider. Not much is mentioned about maintenance,insurance, not so good tow pilots?

THE FUTURE IS SELF LAUNCH AND WINCHING IMHO AND THERE MAY HAVE TO BE IDEAL VENUES found FOR THEM!

For training, winching is best and one may have to go out to the prairie. Self launching can be done at busy airports. Sometimes I am cleared for take off behind two jets. The Germans are/were using their teenagers for Winch and retrieve work. They especially love to drive the retrieve car, since they are not allowed to drive yet on the road etc etc. But those customs may end?
Diesel winches...Boutique gas? Self Launch gliders? A lot of changes are comming! Most of us in the US do not even know what a good winch looks like.
There are so many contrasts. Europeans now fly in Namibia with Dozens of Self launchers, and some of their buddies are waiting for spring up north so they
can make their 10 flights a year off winches that may not last more than 15 minutes each!

Dieter
Gliders Of Aspen Inc.

[Bill D]

On Wednesday, November 28, 2012 11:25:03 AM UTC-7, Dieter B wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
>
> > I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
>
> >
>
> > Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
>
> >
>
> > keep the sport affordable
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an
>
> >
>
> > airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current
>
> >
>
> > fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the
>
> >
>
> > average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of
>
> >
>
> > any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter
>
> >
>
> > any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Germans did not have tow planes when they were allowed to fly again after WWII. They needed to use winches to fly. So they found the infrastructures for them. The Doernberg in Germany works great with winches but the terrain is not good for tow planes. I operated a Com operation for decades with 2 Tugs, have thousands of hours in them, always preferred to fly the glider. Not much is mentioned about maintenance,insurance, not so good tow pilots?
>
>
>
> THE FUTURE IS SELF LAUNCH AND WINCHING IMHO AND THERE MAY HAVE TO BE IDEAL VENUES found FOR THEM!
>
>
>
> For training, winching is best and one may have to go out to the prairie. Self launching can be done at busy airports. Sometimes I am cleared for take off behind two jets. The Germans are/were using their teenagers for Winch and retrieve work. They especially love to drive the retrieve car, since they are not allowed to drive yet on the road etc etc. But those customs may end?
>
> Diesel winches...Boutique gas? Self Launch gliders? A lot of changes are comming! Most of us in the US do not even know what a good winch looks like..
>
> There are so many contrasts. Europeans now fly in Namibia with Dozens of Self launchers, and some of their buddies are waiting for spring up north so they
>
> can make their 10 flights a year off winches that may not last more than 15 minutes each!
>
>
>
> Dieter
>
> Gliders Of Aspen Inc.

Dieter, you're right as usual. However, I think the self-launch community and the winch launch community will go different directions. Self-launcher's will tend to operate as individuals outside of clubs and commercial operations much as airplane owners do while winches will pull club membership closer together as they increasingly depend on each other.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:10:19 -0800, Bill D wrote:

> The key to keeping winch launch as cheap as possible is to make sure
> everything possible has been done to prevent the winch from damaging the
> rope. An old-style crossed roller fairlead absolutely murders rope.
> The other is not to use a monster SUV to pull out the rope since they
> can easily burn a tank of gas a day.
>
FWIW my club uses 4WD diesel Hilux pickup trucks to fetch cables from a
two cable winch. I know this may be a no-no on CA, but they're great
elsewhere. We have a grass field on heavy clay soil, so it doesn't drain
well ans is in the UK, so is often damp.

In dry conditions the Hiluxes do a good job on 2WD and normal tyres.
In winter we fit double wide tyres and tow in 4WD. If conditions are
really wet we use wide tyres, 4WD and only one cable.

Our usual run is 1360m (4460ft) and gives launches to 1200-2000 ft
depending on conditions.

I have never known a Hilux to use more than a fraction of a tank during a
full day's operations. On a busy summer day, 100 launches is not unknown,
though 40-50 is more usual.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bill D]

On Friday, November 30, 2012 5:55:43 PM UTC-7, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 12:10:19 -0800, Bill D wrote:
>
>
>
> > The key to keeping winch launch as cheap as possible is to make sure
>
> > everything possible has been done to prevent the winch from damaging the
>
> > rope. An old-style crossed roller fairlead absolutely murders rope.
>
> > The other is not to use a monster SUV to pull out the rope since they
>
> > can easily burn a tank of gas a day.
>
> >
>
> FWIW my club uses 4WD diesel Hilux pickup trucks to fetch cables from a
>
> two cable winch. I know this may be a no-no on CA, but they're great
>
> elsewhere. We have a grass field on heavy clay soil, so it doesn't drain
>
> well ans is in the UK, so is often damp.
>
>
>
> In dry conditions the Hiluxes do a good job on 2WD and normal tyres.
>
> In winter we fit double wide tyres and tow in 4WD. If conditions are
>
> really wet we use wide tyres, 4WD and only one cable.
>
>
>
> Our usual run is 1360m (4460ft) and gives launches to 1200-2000 ft
>
> depending on conditions.
>
>
>
> I have never known a Hilux to use more than a fraction of a tank during a
>
> full day's operations. On a busy summer day, 100 launches is not unknown,
>
> though 40-50 is more usual.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>
> org |

Big retrieve vehicles are a legacy of steel cable winches. With Dyneema, I've seen a wing runner grab the rope and pull another 15 feet off the winch which was a mile away. Dyneema is so light and slippery a 125cc ATV is more than enough retrieve vehicle. I'm sure it could pull 4 ropes on wet grass.

[Bill D]

On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 11:30:04 AM UTC-7, soarin wrote:
> I recently read a a blurb on the SSA home page that claims the following.
>
>
>
> High AVGAS prices ($6-$13/gal currently) are hurting aero tow operations.
>
> Ultimately, US soaring will have to adopt fuel efficient winch launch to
>
> keep the sport affordable
>
>
>
> Locally here in Ca we currently pay $5.60 per gal 100LL and there is an
>
> airport 20 miles away charging $5.21 per gal. An online search of current
>
> fuel prices shows that throughout the six continental U.S. regions the
>
> average price per gal 100LL is between $5.43 and $5.76. Is anyone aware of
>
> any U.S. fixed glider operations paying $13 per gallon, or for that matter
>
> any fixed operations that are paying in excess of $7?

I don't think anyone is talking about winches replacing 100% of aero tows. Each have their place.

Let's consider training for a moment. With aero tows getting more and more expensive, training tends to proceed with the minimum possible number of tows as instructors try to minimize costs for their students.

We may be paying a price for that in the number of landing accidents with people getting Private licenses with 40 - 60 total landings. (And some licensed pilots going for years with no more than 20 landings a year.)With the low costs of winch launch, instructors can really drill their students on landings and the rest of us can stay sharp.

Yes, it may not be practical to do all training maneuvers from a winch unless you can consistently get over 2000' AGL. However, most of the PP-G PTS maneuvers can easily be done from lower release heights. It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway.

[GM]

Let's consider training for a moment. With aero tows getting more and more expensive, training tends to proceed with the minimum possible number of tows as instructors try to minimize costs for their students. We may be paying a price for that in the number of landing accidents with people getting Private licenses with 40 - 60 total landings. (And some licensed pilots going for years with no more than 20 landings a year.)With the low costs of winch launch, instructors can really drill their students on landings and the rest of us can stay sharp. Yes, it may not be practical to do all training maneuvers from a winch unless you can consistently get over 2000' AGL. However, most of the PP-G PTS maneuvers can easily be done from lower release heights. It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway.

>> Let's consider training for a moment. <<
Our club has attracted two young students (highschool age) solely due to the fact that we can offer a large part of our training on the winch at very low cost.

>> ...and the rest of us can stay sharp. <<
We are blessed with a very mild climate around here (South Carolina) and we can typically fly almost all year round. The operative word here is 'can'. Since we don't have good thermal conditions in the winter months, nobody in his right mind assembles his glider only to take a 2,000ft aero-tow and to sled-ride it down! Having the winch available, a good number of our members took advantage of it and took a few launches in our Twin now and then, thereby dramatically reducing the 'stupid-season' in the spring-time!

>> Yes, it may not be practical to do all training maneuvers from a winch unless you can consistently get over 2000' AGL. <<
Hmmm.... that may be a question of re-structuring the training syllabus. I trained off the winch in Germany all the way to first solo ('A'-badge) and didn't get into aero-towing until the end of my second year of training. A club rule stipulated that a minimum of 70 winch launches had to be made before the first solo (#71-73 were my 'A' flights), so my log-book shows a good number of 4-5 minute long training flights. Our typical release heights were 300m - 350m in our K-13.

>> It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway. <<
Agree 100% - I tell our members that the winch is by no means meant to replace the tow plane but rather than enhance and round out the club's offering..

Safe soaring!
U. Neumann

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 08:37:20 -0800, GM wrote:

> Hmmm.... that may be a question of re-structuring the training syllabus.
> I trained off the winch in Germany all the way to first solo ('A'-badge)
> and didn't get into aero-towing until the end of my second year of
> training. A club rule stipulated that a minimum of 70 winch launches had
> to be made before the first solo (#71-73 were my 'A' flights), so my
> log-book shows a good number of 4-5 minute long training flights. Our
> typical release heights were 300m - 350m in our K-13.
>
Same here. I took 79 winch launches and one aero tow to solo (UK), all
completed within one excellent soaring season. I started in late March,
and went solo toward the end of August. The one aero tow was for
instructor demonstrated spinning. The remainder of my spin training was
off the winch with the aid of thermal climbs. That was happenstance: my
spin training happened to be on days with good thermals.

I didn't get my solo aero-tow signoff until a year after I went solo. I
used my first aero-tow in a Junior to get Silver C duration off a 2000 ft
tow. This was a week before I flew the distance leg off a winch launch in
the same Junior.

>>> It isn't likely a training operation will want their students to get
>>> certificates with only a winch launch endorsements anyway. <<
> Agree 100% - I tell our members that the winch is by no means meant to
> replace the tow plane but rather than enhance and round out the club's
> offering.
>
I prefer to go xc off the winch on the grounds that, if I can get away
from 1200 ft I've shown that its likely I can scratch away from a similar
height if I should get low away from home.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |