A Poll on your weight and balance

[soartech]

All sailplane owners,
Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
fine.
Thanks.

[Matt Herron Jr.]

Ventus C (all up)
Nose wheel: 772 lbs
tail wheel 36.3 lbs
C/G 4.5" aft of datum (76% aft)

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:49:48 AM UTC-6, soartech wrote:
> All sailplane owners,
>
> Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> fine.
>
> Thanks.

It would be nice to know what you try to accomplish. Also there are so many variables going into the tail wheel weight. A Genesis probably will be much different from a Duo Discus. You should also specify if this weight is for the empty glider or with the pilot and chute.

[JS]

Looking from a medical viewpoint?
Going by just tail weight, perhaps Martin Heide has friends who are chiropractors.
Jim

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 10:43:36 AM UTC-8, wrote:
>
> It would be nice to know what you try to accomplish.

[Tony[_5_]]

Empty:

Std Cirrus - 65 lbs on tail
Cherokee II - ~25 lbs on tail
NG-1 - ~5 lbs on tail

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 10:49:48 AM UTC-7, soartech wrote:
> All sailplane owners,
>
> Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> fine.
>
> Thanks.

LAK12 empty
34.5kg 76lbs

[C-FFKQ (42)]

Kestrel 19
104 lbs on the tailwheel, empty

Can you say, "Oh, my aching back!"? :D

[[email protected]]

ASW-27b 23lb on tail. Dry no pilot.

Mosquito A 46lb on tail. Dry no pilot.

[rlovinggood]

1970 LS1-d

Empty

70.0 lbs
(31.75Kg)

With pilot on board, ready to fly:
48.0 lbs
(21.77Kg)

[Papa3[_2_]]

1978 Grob Twin Astir Serial Number 3075

Empty
Tail: 113.5
Main: 818



On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:49:48 PM UTC-5, soartech wrote:
> All sailplane owners,
>
> Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> fine.
>
> Thanks.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:55:17 AM UTC-7, JS wrote:

> Going by just tail weight, perhaps Martin Heide has friends who are chiropractors.
>

I suspect Martin just inherited this design feature. My 28 runs about 60lb on the tail, ballasted and with me in the cockpit. I have to lift a lot more than that to put the tail dolly on. I have no record of the tail weight for that condition but it calculates to approx 90lb.

Attempting to answer the OP's question - In specified weighing attitude, no ballast and no pilot, tail 67lb. Same with pilot and chute in cockpit, tail 37.5lb.

As others have pointed out, the conditions for measuring tail weight have a huge influence on the result. No data will be of any value unless the conditions are specified.

Andy (GY)

[Grider Pirate[_2_]]

On Dec 6, 6:19*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:55:17 AM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> > Going by just tail weight, perhaps Martin Heide has friends who are chiropractors.
>
> I suspect Martin just inherited this design feature. *My 28 runs about 60lb on the tail, ballasted and with me in the cockpit. *I have to lift a lot more than that to put the tail dolly on. *I have no record of the tail weight for that condition but it calculates to approx 90lb.
>
> Attempting to answer the OP's question *- In specified weighing attitude, no ballast and no pilot, *tail 67lb. *Same with pilot and chute in cockpit, tail 37.5lb.
>
> As others have pointed out, the conditions for measuring tail weight have a huge influence on the result. *No data will be of any value unless the conditions are specified.
>
> Andy (GY)

Janus C - 64 lbs
Speed Astir II - 90 lbs

[John Carlyle]

ASW-19B = 70 lbs
LS8-18 = 67 lbs

Both values without pilot or chute, and both done using manufacturer's specified tail position.

-John

[RN]

DG-1000 109 lbs without tail weights and empty cockpits

[soartech[_2_]]

THANKS ALL for your helpful info.
I was simply trying to determine if my glider had a typical tail wheel
weight.
The first time I tried to lift the tail to install a dolly I was
dismayed to discover
how heavy it is. All I had to compare it with is the club fleet of
three SGS machines which all
have very light tail weights. It seems as if the older gliders
(Cherokee, 1-26, 1-34) are
almost balanced on the wheel whereas the glass ships are quite heavy.
Does this make them any trickier to land? I realize the flying
balance
is most likely different from wheel balance i.e CG and wheel are not
co-located.
The average of the single place tail weights without pilot aboard is
66 lbs. and mine
is 72 lbs. so I am right in the ballpark.
Has anyone made a simple lever-lifted dolly arrangement? Or do you
risk your back with
the poor lifting position that the tail boom presents?

[Grider Pirate[_2_]]

I just risk my back. The Speed Astir 'Dolly' is just a post on a
wheel. That's nice, because you can't accidentally take off with it
on, but lifting that 90 lb tail and trying to fit the post into the
hole in the underside of the fuselage can be challenging.
The Janus uses a conventional dolly and has only 64 lbs on the
tailwheel. Piece of cake.
BTW, on the subject of weight and balance, just for your own knowledge
you might want to run the numbers with your tail dolly ON. In the
case of the Janus, the glider remains well within CG limits unless it
is being flown solo by a person that is lighter than me, or any of my
partners.

On Dec 7, 1:32*pm, soartech > wrote:
> THANKS ALL for your helpful info.
> I was simply trying to determine if my glider had a typical tail wheel
> weight.
> The first time I tried to lift the tail to install a dolly I was
> dismayed to discover
> how heavy it is. All I had to compare it with is the club fleet of
> three SGS machines which all
> have very light tail weights. It seems as if the older gliders
> (Cherokee, 1-26, 1-34) are
> almost balanced on the wheel whereas the glass ships are quite heavy.
> Does this make them any trickier to land? *I realize the flying
> balance
> is most likely different from wheel balance i.e CG and wheel are not
> co-located.
> The average of the single place tail weights without pilot aboard is
> 66 lbs. and mine
> is 72 lbs. so I am right in the ballpark.
> Has anyone made a simple lever-lifted dolly arrangement? Or do you
> risk your back with
> the poor lifting position that the tail boom presents?

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 4:32:41 PM UTC-5, soartech wrote:
> Has anyone made a simple lever-lifted dolly arrangement?

Of course:
http://www.cobratrailer.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=144

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

On Fri, 7 Dec 2012 13:32:41 -0800 (PST), soartech
> wrote:
.... text deleted
>Has anyone made a simple lever-lifted dolly arrangement? Or do you
>risk your back with
>the poor lifting position that the tail boom presents?

I'd recommend Mark Mocho's combination tow dolly with integrated lift
bar.
http://www.mmfabrication.com/towbars.htm

A very satisfied user.

Bob

[[email protected]]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 2:32:41 PM UTC-7, soartech wrote:
> THANKS ALL for your helpful info.
>
> I was simply trying to determine if my glider had a typical tail wheel
>
> weight.
>
> The first time I tried to lift the tail to install a dolly I was
>
> dismayed to discover
>
> how heavy it is. All I had to compare it with is the club fleet of
>
> three SGS machines which all
>
> have very light tail weights. It seems as if the older gliders
>
> (Cherokee, 1-26, 1-34) are
>
> almost balanced on the wheel whereas the glass ships are quite heavy.
>
> Does this make them any trickier to land? I realize the flying
>
> balance
>
> is most likely different from wheel balance i.e CG and wheel are not
>
> co-located.
>
> The average of the single place tail weights without pilot aboard is
>
> 66 lbs. and mine
>
> is 72 lbs. so I am right in the ballpark.
>
> Has anyone made a simple lever-lifted dolly arrangement? Or do you
>
> risk your back with
>
> the poor lifting position that the tail boom presents?

I agree with Bob's comment about Mark Mocho's tow bar and tail boom lifter. It works very well and there are at least 30 or 40 satisfied users at Moriarty and there are many other users around the US! His website is: www.mmfabrication.com

[[email protected]]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 4:32:41 PM UTC-5, soartech wrote:
> THANKS ALL for your helpful info.
>
> I was simply trying to determine if my glider had a typical tail wheel
>
> weight.
>
> The first time I tried to lift the tail to install a dolly I was
>
> dismayed to discover
>
> how heavy it is. All I had to compare it with is the club fleet of
>
> three SGS machines which all
>
> have very light tail weights. It seems as if the older gliders
>
> (Cherokee, 1-26, 1-34) are
>
> almost balanced on the wheel whereas the glass ships are quite heavy.
>
> Does this make them any trickier to land? I realize the flying
>
> balance
>
> is most likely different from wheel balance i.e CG and wheel are not
>
> co-located.
>
> The average of the single place tail weights without pilot aboard is
>
> 66 lbs. and mine
>
> is 72 lbs. so I am right in the ballpark.
>
> Has anyone made a simple lever-lifted dolly arrangement? Or do you
>
> risk your back with
>
> the poor lifting position that the tail boom presents?

As weighed when I took delivery of my plane the tail wheel had 71 lbs on it.
I added 6 lbs of ballast back there. When I'm in the plane the CG is about
7.5 inches behind the main wheel. Of course all this is with the plane
leveled; since the plane normally sits tail down more weight shifts aft.
The position of the CG is normal for these kind of tail dragger planes.
Schweitzers (other than the 1-35) and typical glass trainers (K21 or G103)
are nose draggers when occupied.

What I do to put on or take off the tail dolly is to straddle the tail boom
facing aft. After I pick up the boom I cross my ankles under the boom so
I easily hold it up while messing with the dolly.

-- Matt
-- Matt

[Dave Nadler]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 5:33:52 PM UTC-5, Dave Nadler wrote:
> Of course:
> http://www.cobratrailer.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=144

PS: Tail weight of Antares 20E without pilot: 139 lbs.
This feature means that with pilot, under full power,
there is still adequate weight on steerable tail
wheel to provide excellent directional control during
initial take-off.
But don't try to lift the tail !

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:49:48 AM UTC-8, soartech wrote:
> All sailplane owners,
>
> Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> fine.
>
> Thanks.

154 lbs. on the tail wheel. Do I win a prize?

ASH26E, no pilot or wing ballast, 6 lbs of lead in the tail ballast box.

[jfitch]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 8:18:10 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:49:48 AM UTC-8, soartech wrote:
>
> > All sailplane owners,
>
> >
>
> > Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> >
>
> > balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> >
>
> > it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> >
>
> > fine.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks.
>
>
>
> 154 lbs. on the tail wheel. Do I win a prize?
>
>
>
> ASH26E, no pilot or wing ballast, 6 lbs of lead in the tail ballast box.

I should also mention that, even so, I have little trouble putting the tail dolly on, I don't use a cheater bar, and I'm not superman. You just need to perfect your technique.

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:49:48 AM UTC-8, soartech wrote:
> All sailplane owners,
>
> Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> fine.
>
> Thanks.

Just ask a friend to sit on your nose!
:>) JJ

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, December 8, 2012 9:06:29 AM UTC-5, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Just ask a friend to sit on your nose!

Really JJ, this is a family channel...

[kirk.stant]

On Saturday, December 8, 2012 3:06:29 PM UTC+1, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 5, 2012 9:49:48 AM UTC-8, soartech wrote:
>
> > All sailplane owners,
>
> >
>
> > Please reply with the weight on your tail wheel from your weight and
>
> >
>
> > balance sheet. I will calculate the average after a few days and post
>
> >
>
> > it and the range. Reply on this list or directly to me, either way is
>
> >
>
> > fine.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks.
>
>
>
> Just ask a friend to sit on your nose!
>
> :>) JJ

Isn't that what a tail dolly is for?

66

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

>
> Isn't that what a tail dolly is for?
>
>
>
> 6
When the tail of my sailplane is too heavy for me to lift, I ask a friend to sit on the nose and that makes the tail light enough for me to easily put on the tail dolly. Didn't think it was necessary to connect the dots when I made my suggestion, guess I was wrong.
JJ

[GC[_2_]]

On 15/12/2012 01:01, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
>>
>> Isn't that what a tail dolly is for?
>>
>>
>>
>> 6
> When the tail of my sailplane is too heavy for me to lift, I ask a
> friend to sit on the nose and that makes the tail light enough for me
> to easily put on the tail dolly. Didn't think it was necessary to
> connect the dots when I made my suggestion, guess I was wrong. JJ
>

It's OK, Kirk. It gave the rest of us a giggle.

GC

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37:11 PM UTC+1, GC wrote:
> On 15/12/2012 01:01, JJ Sinclair wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >> Isn't that what a tail dolly is for?
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> 6
>
> > When the tail of my sailplane is too heavy for me to lift, I ask a
>
> > friend to sit on the nose and that makes the tail light enough for me
>
> > to easily put on the tail dolly. Didn't think it was necessary to
>
> > connect the dots when I made my suggestion, guess I was wrong. JJ
>
> >
>
>
>
> It's OK, Kirk. It gave the rest of us a giggle.
>
>
>
> GC

JJ, think "Doughnut Dolly"... ;^)

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

>
>
> JJ, think "Doughnut Dolly"... ;^)

So now I'm going to ask a Doughnut Dolly to, "Sit on my nose"? I don't have a problem with that, but I bet wife Pat would be sitting on top of the volunteer dolly and I'd end up with a broken nose one way or the other. She has been known to engage in ramp sex..............you know where you stand nose to nose and scream FUC* YOU at each other!

:>) JJ

[JS]

Oh, this has gone south... But it must be winter on RAS.
Jon Fitch might be the grand prize winner, and with a Martin Heide design...
Quelle surprise!
Jim

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:07:37 AM UTC-8, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> >
>
> > JJ, think "Doughnut Dolly"... ;^)
>
> SNIPPED
>
> She has been known to engage in ramp sex..............you know where you stand nose to nose and scream FUC* YOU at each other!
>
>
>
> :>) JJ

Oh My Gosh.
After all these years, I just discovered I have had sex in public!
Eeeekk.

I have given many lessons in tail dolly installation ( and removal) for
new owners of gliders. Lots of tips are available.
Leave your chute in the cockpit leaned forward, or drape it over the nosecone (non-sentient nose ballast)being careful of no loose buckles or canopy scraping.
Cockpit water containers or landout kits can be placed forward momentarily for this reconfiguration of ground handling equipment. Every bit of ballast helps.

Facing aft and straddling the boom, hold dolly handle in right hand and wheel in a perpendicular manner with your left. Set/fit top half over boom and fit to fin, leave open wheel-half resting on hinge line on the ground. Use linked hands forward of dolly to lift boom while sliding feet crossed or Very Close under boom, resting boom on pinched together calves. Dolly will rotate under boom by itself. Leave left hand underneath -- bringing lower half across, and use right hand to catch up a clasp or fidget dolly into snugging position. Take all that weight on your LEGS, not with your arms. If you have bad back history, use a short strap under the boom, and use your legs for the lift and pinch. (This strap might also be useful for fuselage transfers into and out of trailers.)

After latching clasps, you can allow glider to slide down your calves, or grasp
hands under again to set tail on ground.

For taller tail gliders, a friend to place palms under the horizontal, IMMEDIATELY adjacent to the vertical (not outboard) and hoist upwards close to the leading edge, while the pilot places a dolly can be a BIG service, if you gentlemen wish to avoid the Doughnut Dolly problem. Often there is someone more readily available aft of your gridding position.

But an aft-facing buddy perched on the side rail of your cockpit, near the panel rather than the turtledeck, is the best bet for monitoring the teeter-totter cooperation of taildolly installs and removals. Said buddy should be encouraged to have a hand lightly protecting/monitoring that open canopy during the job, with a grip on the frame only. The pilot/installer can direct the weight transfer audibly for install or removal by asking for weight or unloading.

A canopy rail percher is less likely to place hands on your valuable plexi,and make an inadvertent crack or scratches. There is less likelihood of them 'slipping off' or losing grip while trying to provide the counterbalance.. There is less likelihood of forcing cracking on the center seam due to 'unexpected' loads.

It may now be winter, but I have seen plenty of wave lift markers out my kitchen window these last few weeks. Whew. Headed for summer again.

Merry Christmas,
Cindy B

[Dave Nadler]

On Saturday, December 22, 2012 4:58:51 AM UTC-5, CindyB wrote:
> Oh My Gosh.
> After all these years, I just discovered I have had sex in public!
> Eeeekk.

Cindy, we're awaiting the YouTube instructional video...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

[CindyB[_2_]]

On Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:19:20 AM UTC-8, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Saturday, December 22, 2012 4:58:51 AM UTC-5, CindyB wrote:
>
> > Oh My Gosh.
>
> > After all these years, I just discovered I have had sex in public!
>
> > Eeeekk.
>
>
>
> Cindy, we're awaiting the YouTube instructional video...
>
>
>
> See ya, Dave "YO electric"

Dave:

You'll have to wait perhaps a few months, for seasonally appropriate wardrobe. It has been overnight lows of 20F and 23F for several days. This avowed reptile is buried in thermal layers.

I can't bring myself to think about short-shorts
and strappy T's for a December teaching video, irregardless of the issue date of Sports Illustrated's most-'read' publication. Unless perhaps you want to donate a round trip ticket for me to South Africa. . . I know a fellow with a Nimbus 3 down there. That's got a beefy tail weight. Maybe the Jonkers boys would want an advertising 'trailer' of a light tail weight?

Or did you mean the video of 'ramp sex'?
That can be staged almost any time of year,and is
less wardrobe dependent! (Really folks, I seldom exercised my
side of rampsex, but you all know that anyway.)

Back to holiday baking, which is a thermal application all it's own.
Merry Christmas,
Cindy