Fire extinguisher problem

[Paul Folbrecht]

My problem is that I want one for my flight bag but don't want to pay
$105 for the one Sporty's sells. Are there alternatives? Other than
leaving open the chance of dying a horrible, fiery death?

(Sorry, it just doesn't seem that they ought to cost that much..)

[Teacherjh]

>>
My problem is that I want one for my flight bag but don't want to pay
$105 for the one Sporty's sells. Are there alternatives? Other than
leaving open the chance of dying a horrible, fiery death?
<<

Will an extinguisher that size prevent, or merely forestall, a horrible, fiery
death?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[C J Campbell]

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
| My problem is that I want one for my flight bag but don't want to pay
| $105 for the one Sporty's sells. Are there alternatives? Other than
| leaving open the chance of dying a horrible, fiery death?

It would be interesting to know if having a fire extinguisher on board ever
prevented a horrible, fiery death.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
C J Campbell > wrote:
>
>It would be interesting to know if having a fire extinguisher on board ever
>prevented a horrible, fiery death.

There's one installed under my seat (good thing I practiced getting it
out -- you'd never figure it out without laying on the seats the first
time). I've never died a horrible, fiery death so it must work!

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Cockpit Colin]

You might like to tell us more of your fiery tale?




"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:4v%Tb.176101$nt4.773717@attbi_s51...
> In article >,
> C J Campbell > wrote:
> >
> >It would be interesting to know if having a fire extinguisher on board
ever
> >prevented a horrible, fiery death.
>
> There's one installed under my seat (good thing I practiced getting it
> out -- you'd never figure it out without laying on the seats the first
> time). I've never died a horrible, fiery death so it must work!
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cockpit Colin wrote:
>
> You might like to tell us more of your fiery tale?

I think it's probably like the guy around here who beats a cymbal every hour to
keep the elephants away.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[Cecil E. Chapman]

You can get some of the original versions of halon extinguishers on eBay...
There are a few liquidators which are clearing the older stock for
merchants. I have two and not ONE elephant has EVER shown his head ;-)

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures complete with pictures and text at:
www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> My problem is that I want one for my flight bag but don't want to pay
> $105 for the one Sporty's sells. Are there alternatives? Other than
> leaving open the chance of dying a horrible, fiery death?
>
> (Sorry, it just doesn't seem that they ought to cost that much..)

[C J Campbell]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
|
| It would be interesting to know if having a fire extinguisher on board
ever
| prevented a horrible, fiery death.

A search of the NTSB database for "fire extinguisher" turned up 169 hits. A
lot of the reports have nothing to do with fire; the report merely notes
whether there was an extinguisher on board, much like it notes whether a
flight plan was filed. No doubt not having a fire extinguisher explains why
the pilot augured in after flying VFR into IMC.

It appears that most of the time people unsuccessfully used fire
extinguishers to put out fires on the ground. As often as not, people simply
let the airplane burn without any attempt to extinguish the fire even though
a fire extinguisher was on board. (Hey, I'm not going back in there!)
Sometimes they were successful, though, especially if the accident was the
result of a forced landing after fuel starvation. In this case the fire was
probably not very big.

There was this case last year, though, where a Boeing 747 had a fire in (get
this) its fire detection circuit:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20031113X01896&key=1

In this accident at Arlington, people on the ground put out the fire with
fire extinguishers, probably saving the lives of the three passengers, but
not that of the pilot. Whether they got the fire extinguishers out of
airplanes parked nearby, I don't know.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020930X05248&key=1

And in this fire in a Piper, the pilot probably wished he had a fire
extinguisher. Of course, he may also have wanted to set whoever did his last
upholstery job on fire.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020717X01143&key=1

Anyway, reading the reports, I am convinced that having a fire extinguisher
on board is probably a good idea. You may never use it on your own plane,
but it might come in handy if you decide to help somebody else out.

There were accidents also where it appears that there was an onboard fire
and the occupants had a fire extinguisher, but they all died anyway,
probably from asphyxiation. Perhaps they would have been better off if they
had quick donning hoods. OTOH, maybe the hoods would have just ensured that
they would still be conscious while they burned.

The one thing that the GA accidents resulting from fire seemed to all have
in common was poor maintenance. Stuck mixture controls, automobile wiring,
improper or automotive nuts and bolts and clamps, airworthiness directives
not complied with -- saving a few bucks does not appear to be worth it. And,
bringing back the topic of an earlier thread, would you take off in an
airplane where the mixture control was stuck fully open? This pilot did that
last year; he even had to resort to shutting down the engine with the
magnetos instead of the mixture so that he could refuel. Guess he wanted to
make sure that his fire was a big one. :-)

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030619X00912&key=1

(See the complete narrative)

[Ron Natalie]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message om...
> You can get some of the original versions of halon extinguishers on eBay...
> There are a few liquidators which are clearing the older stock for
> merchants. I have two and not ONE elephant has EVER shown his head ;-)
>

You can still get Halon ones from the aircraft suppliers.

Fire on board is real bad. You're only option is to get down QUICK. If the
extinguisher gives you another minute or so, it's done it's job. I have a friend
who lost his plane to in-flight fire. Another minute or so in the air and I would
have lost my friend as well.

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
"Ron Natalie" > wrote:

> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> om...
> > You can get some of the original versions of halon extinguishers on eBay...
> > There are a few liquidators which are clearing the older stock for
> > merchants. I have two and not ONE elephant has EVER shown his head ;-)
> >
>
> You can still get Halon ones from the aircraft suppliers.
>
> Fire on board is real bad. You're only option is to get down QUICK. If
> the
> extinguisher gives you another minute or so, it's done it's job. I have a
> friend
> who lost his plane to in-flight fire. Another minute or so in the air and I
> would
> have lost my friend as well.
>


He could have used both an extinguisher and a chute!

For a bunch of rugged individualists, pilots can be the worst bunch of
conformists. I get constant ridicule for carrying a little halon
extinguisher in my homebuilt and also for wearing a chute. My legs are
right under the fuel tank on my little Stits, just like in a Cub, Champ,
etc. Cool or not, I'm gonna have that extinguisher anytime I'm in the
plane. My primary use of the chute is for glider racing. However, since
I'm paying to get the thing repacked all the time, I might as well get
as much use out of it as possible. Situations that require an
extinguisher or a chute are thankfully few, however, either left behind
on the ground are of no use at all if I have a fire inflight.

Race car drivers used to think it was uncool to wear helmets.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:27:50 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>| My problem is that I want one for my flight bag but don't want to pay
>| $105 for the one Sporty's sells. Are there alternatives? Other than
>| leaving open the chance of dying a horrible, fiery death?

Beech Super 18, 2:00 am appox 6000 ft AGL VFR above a solid layer.
Engine fuel pressure gage supply line split at some point, crew
smelled "something" then the cockpit ignited.

Co-pilot yanked the bottle (dry chemical) Pilot killed all the
'lectrics. Bottle emptied semi-under the panel and on the co-pilot's
burning shoes.

Used LCD watch back-lighting x2, one alternating between compass and
altimeter, one on the ADI (onboard rechargeable flashlight TU) to
descend through the cloud deck, sniffing gas fumes all the way down.

Saw a "dark patch" that looked inviting, secured both engines and
landed, exited a/c through the LH crew door while the airplane was
still rolling.

Wandered around a little bit, discovered they were on the grounds of
the Lost Nation (LNN) airport, in the grass.

I went over and jury-rigged the a/c for a 30 minute stiff-leg ferry
flight home. About crapped when I saw the cockpit interior. Soot and
Purple K everywhere.

Pilot presented Co-pilot with bronzed burnt shoes at the next
Christmas party.

>
>It would be interesting to know if having a fire extinguisher on board ever
>prevented a horrible, fiery death.
>

You be the judge.

TC

[Paul Folbrecht]

Cecil,

I just picked one up (had a buy-now price). Thanks for the tip.

Cecil E. Chapman wrote:
> You can get some of the original versions of halon extinguishers on eBay...
> There are a few liquidators which are clearing the older stock for
> merchants. I have two and not ONE elephant has EVER shown his head ;-)
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

Great story, Mr. Toe Cutter.

wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 20:27:50 -0800, "C J Campbell"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>>| My problem is that I want one for my flight bag but don't want to pay
>>| $105 for the one Sporty's sells. Are there alternatives? Other than
>>| leaving open the chance of dying a horrible, fiery death?
>
>
> Beech Super 18, 2:00 am appox 6000 ft AGL VFR above a solid layer.
> Engine fuel pressure gage supply line split at some point, crew
> smelled "something" then the cockpit ignited.
....

[Paul Folbrecht]

Interesting research, CJ. As for me- about a year ago I read an NTSB
report involving an RV pilot who bailed out of his machine (sans chute)
to due an electrical fire. Was found with severe burns on his hands and
face (being dead as a dornail from the fall, of course). I vowed at
that time that I would carry an extinguisher with me at all times, and
I've already renigged on that by not doing it during training. Now that
I'm licenced I'm getting one.

Yeah, it may be a one in 10,000 shot that I'll use it, but if I ever had
a need for one and *didn't* have it, I'd, well, just never forgive myself.

I'll also have a professional electrician look over the electrical
system of my RV-9 when I build it.

C J Campbell wrote:

> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> |
> | It would be interesting to know if having a fire extinguisher on board
> ever
> | prevented a horrible, fiery death.
>
> A search of the NTSB database for "fire extinguisher" turned up 169 hits. A
> lot of the reports have nothing to do with fire; the report merely notes
> whether there was an extinguisher on board, much like it notes whether a
> flight plan was filed. No doubt not having a fire extinguisher explains why
> the pilot augured in after flying VFR into IMC.
>
> It appears that most of the time people unsuccessfully used fire
> extinguishers to put out fires on the ground. As often as not, people simply
> let the airplane burn without any attempt to extinguish the fire even though
> a fire extinguisher was on board. (Hey, I'm not going back in there!)
> Sometimes they were successful, though, especially if the accident was the
> result of a forced landing after fuel starvation. In this case the fire was
> probably not very big.
>
> There was this case last year, though, where a Boeing 747 had a fire in (get
> this) its fire detection circuit:
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20031113X01896&key=1
>
> In this accident at Arlington, people on the ground put out the fire with
> fire extinguishers, probably saving the lives of the three passengers, but
> not that of the pilot. Whether they got the fire extinguishers out of
> airplanes parked nearby, I don't know.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020930X05248&key=1
>
> And in this fire in a Piper, the pilot probably wished he had a fire
> extinguisher. Of course, he may also have wanted to set whoever did his last
> upholstery job on fire.
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020717X01143&key=1
>
> Anyway, reading the reports, I am convinced that having a fire extinguisher
> on board is probably a good idea. You may never use it on your own plane,
> but it might come in handy if you decide to help somebody else out.
>
> There were accidents also where it appears that there was an onboard fire
> and the occupants had a fire extinguisher, but they all died anyway,
> probably from asphyxiation. Perhaps they would have been better off if they
> had quick donning hoods. OTOH, maybe the hoods would have just ensured that
> they would still be conscious while they burned.
>
> The one thing that the GA accidents resulting from fire seemed to all have
> in common was poor maintenance. Stuck mixture controls, automobile wiring,
> improper or automotive nuts and bolts and clamps, airworthiness directives
> not complied with -- saving a few bucks does not appear to be worth it. And,
> bringing back the topic of an earlier thread, would you take off in an
> airplane where the mixture control was stuck fully open? This pilot did that
> last year; he even had to resort to shutting down the engine with the
> magnetos instead of the mixture so that he could refuel. Guess he wanted to
> make sure that his fire was a big one. :-)
>
> http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030619X00912&key=1
>
> (See the complete narrative)
>
>
>

[Chris Hoffmann]

Wasn't "toecutter" the name of the guy who, coincidentally, died (well,
actually, worse, lived through...) a horrible, fiery death in the original
Mad Max?

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Great story, Mr. Toe Cutter.
>

[Brien K. Meehan]

"Chris Hoffmann" > wrote in message >...
> Wasn't "toecutter" the name of the guy who, coincidentally, died (well,
> actually, worse, lived through...) a horrible, fiery death in the original
> Mad Max?

That was Goose. Rather, "That thing in there, that ain't the Goose ... no way."

Toecutter was the gang leader.

[Neil Gould]

Hi,

Recently, > posted:
(largely snipped)
>
> Wandered around a little bit, discovered they were on the grounds of
> the Lost Nation (LNN) airport, in the grass.
>
Unless this accident was 40 years ago or more, either you were damn lucky,
or just plain nuts. If LNN was dark, I'd have opted for the well-lit
freeway about a mile off the south side or at worst the 4-lane road (Lost
Nation Road) that runs straight for a couple of miles directly adjacent to
the airport, rather than risk the patches of trees, parked planes, and
buildings on the field or the nearby residences.

Regards,

Neil

[Dennis O'Connor]

I almost landed at LNN, as I was headed west along the Lake Erie shorline
when a rolling wall of CB boxed me in and sent me high tailing back to the
east for cover... Blocked out at Elyria I was headed for Lost Nation until
the controller at Cleveland-Hopkins got all exercised because I was already
in his airspace by the time he got around to putting his coffee down and
answering a radio call that wasn't from Mega Air Cattle Lines... After he
got done whining about the sanctity of his B I was able to see a triple
seven on final so I mentioned I wouldn't mind landing there... He whined a
bit more but cleared me in... Sleeping in the lounge at the Jet Center was
a lot better than sleeping on the floor at LNN...

denny
"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Hi,
>
> Recently, > posted:
> (largely snipped)
> >
> > Wandered around a little bit, discovered they were on the grounds of
> > the Lost Nation (LNN) airport, in the grass.
> >
> Unless this accident was 40 years ago or more, either you were damn lucky,
> or just plain nuts. If LNN was dark, I'd have opted for the well-lit
> freeway about a mile off the south side or at worst the 4-lane road (Lost
> Nation Road) that runs straight for a couple of miles directly adjacent to
> the airport, rather than risk the patches of trees, parked planes, and
> buildings on the field or the nearby residences.
>
> Regards,
>
> Neil
>
>
>

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Dennis O'Connor > posted:

> I almost landed at LNN, as I was headed west along the Lake Erie
> shorline when a rolling wall of CB boxed me in and sent me high
> tailing back to the east for cover... Blocked out at Elyria I was
> headed for Lost Nation until the controller at Cleveland-Hopkins got
> all exercised because I was already in his airspace by the time he
> got around to putting his coffee down and answering a radio call that
> wasn't from Mega Air Cattle Lines... After he got done whining about
> the sanctity of his B I was able to see a triple seven on final so I
> mentioned I wouldn't mind landing there... He whined a bit more but
> cleared me in... Sleeping in the lounge at the Jet Center was a lot
> better than sleeping on the floor at LNN...
>
If you were that far West, you could have opted for Burke Lakefront (BKL).
Cuyahoga County (CGF) is the next stop East between Burke and LNN. No
shortage of options in these parts!

Regards,

Neil

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 12:38:33 GMT, "Neil Gould"
> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Recently, > posted:
>(largely snipped)
>>
>> Wandered around a little bit, discovered they were on the grounds of
>> the Lost Nation (LNN) airport, in the grass.
>>
>Unless this accident was 40 years ago or more, either you were damn lucky,
>or just plain nuts. If LNN was dark, I'd have opted for the well-lit
>freeway about a mile off the south side or at worst the 4-lane road (Lost
>Nation Road) that runs straight for a couple of miles directly adjacent to
>the airport, rather than risk the patches of trees, parked planes, and
>buildings on the field or the nearby residences.
>
>Regards,
>
>Neil
>

Wasn't me, I wuz just the guy that had to go help pick up the pieces
(19 years ago).

The PIC is one of two or three pilots I've worked with in this
industry that I would never, under any circumstances second guess.

Might have something to do with the fact that when he left the
freight-dog world for the big leagues (3 years later) he had somewhere
around 15,000 hours, quite a few of which were spent in less than
"ideal" conditions.

I've never had the opportunity to break out of the clouds at night
with my feet soaked in 100LL to a engine out landing in a Twin Beech,
that could also be a contributing factor.

Last time I talked to him, he lamented the fact that most of the crews
he runs around with have no idea what a Beech 18 is.

I agree completely with the "damn lucky" statement, and made it quite
clear at the time that not having a working torch onboard, and not
paying close attention to the location of the 'ship sure as hell
wasn't my area of responsibility.

The busted fuel line was, however...

Regards;

TC