Personal flight computers

[kd6veb]

Hi Gang
There appears to be several very bright PNAs available on the market including the Vertica 2 and the Oudie and several software packages including SeeYou, XCSoar and LK8000 (is GN11 and any of the other older systems still supported?).
I recently purchased A Vertica and down loaded the LK8000 software. I am pleased with the performance of the system with the display so much brighter than my old system using a HP PDA. That said and done have any of you done a recent comparison of the various systems and if so is there a strong winner or are they mostly similar.
Dave

[Whiskey Delta]

On Dec 7, 12:51*pm, kd6veb > wrote:
> Hi Gang
> * There appears to be several very bright PNAs available on the market including the Vertica 2 and the Oudie and several software packages including SeeYou, XCSoar and LK8000 (is GN11 and any of the other older systems still supported?).
> * I recently purchased A Vertica and down loaded the LK8000 software. I am pleased with the performance of the system with the display so much brighter than my old system using a HP PDA. That said and done have any of you done a recent comparison of the various systems and if so is there a strong winner or are they mostly similar.
> Dave

I'd like to know how the Vertica 2 compares to the Oudie 2 or Oudie 2
Lite. My understanding is that they are similar. Can anyone offer a
comparison of the two in use? Do they have the same GPS engine?

Thanks!

WD

[waremark]

On Friday, December 7, 2012 6:09:22 PM UTC, Whiskey Delta wrote:
> On Dec 7, 12:51*pm, kd6veb > wrote:
>
> > Hi Gang
>
> > * There appears to be several very bright PNAs available on the market including the Vertica 2 and the Oudie and several software packages including SeeYou, XCSoar and LK8000 (is GN11 and any of the other older systems still supported?).
>
> > * I recently purchased A Vertica and down loaded the LK8000 software. I am pleased with the performance of the system with the display so much brighter than my old system using a HP PDA. That said and done have any of you done a recent comparison of the various systems and if so is there a strong winner or are they mostly similar.
>
> > Dave
>
>
>
> I'd like to know how the Vertica 2 compares to the Oudie 2 or Oudie 2
>
> Lite. My understanding is that they are similar. Can anyone offer a
>
> comparison of the two in use? Do they have the same GPS engine?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> WD

I have an Oudie and a GliderGuider.

Different GPS engine. The Oudie GPS engine has a 'track smoothing' issue which means that it is not accurate when circling - and therefore the wind calculation and other calculations which flow from it may not be accurate.

The Vertica 2 and other similar devices (GliderGuider and others are probably identical) use a GPS engine which is more accurate in flight - but which probably uses more battery power and which takes longer to lock on to satellites.

The Oudie has much more internal memory which means that it can run a worldwide terrain map from internal memory, whereas the GliderGuider cannot cope with the worldwide map, and the Oudie handles some tasks rather faster.

The Oudie comes with a much wider range of interfaces.

If you intended to use the device mainly or only using an external GPS engine the Oudie would probably be the unit to choose. I want the device to give a good result without any external connections (other than to a batery) when flying a club glider. I am using the GliderGuider running SeeYou Mobile and think that is an outstanding system for the purpose.

I had a good look at LK8000 to see how it compared to SYM. I found several features in LK8000 which were not present in SYM but none of them were significant to me, and I thought SYM made it easier to do the things which I do often. I accept that this may be due to my greater familiarity with SYM. I also appreciate the very good support which SYM has from the Naviter folk. I think the biggest difference is made by your software setup, and by the setup of your database files. Unless you are a serious boffin, I would choose a software program which is in use by pilots in your club who are good at the setup.

[[email protected]]

LK8000 is my favorite software bar none. The support is phenomenal with daily forum chat by the developer. Check out postfrontal.com This hosts lk8000 forum where you can find thread comparing all available displays in photos. I use mio 400. For less than $50 I have top of lone pna.

XF

[noel.wade]

I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts
after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:

I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it
over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:
the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple
of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the
"Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very
accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.

For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over
the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of
altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"
doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/
secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if
my logger dies during a flight.

For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen
brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-
hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no
exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2
hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying
the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to
plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB
port to provide supplemental power.

I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with
XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).

The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software
options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the
need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-
branded hardware.

All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same
functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or
competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine
(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal
preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up
initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are
very customizable so I can group information together in ways that
make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and
information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs
can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
figure out just what's important at the moment.

--Noel

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Dec 9, 1:53*am, "noel.wade" > wrote:

> (LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). *They may have
> slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
> differences are styling, not function.

I disagree with that statement. They have conceptual similarities, of
course. However, I have found some significant differences in
functionality (usability) in the cockpit. This is at least as much
about hardware as software. How many of these setups will preserve
your task, start time, stats and flight log through an unintended
power cycle (battery died, circuit breaker popped, "co-pilot" hit the
switch) or even a system lock up? As well, information entry
requirements vary enormously. What looks great at the kitchen table
sometimes doesn't work so hot in the cockpit (been through that).

>*I think these programs
> can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
> for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
> figure out just what's important at the moment.

Ohhhhhh yes. An essential feature is being able to turn all the
distraction off. Unfortunately, the great temptation is to leave too
much of it on, on the theory that it might be useful (been through
that, too).

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Jim[_31_]]

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:53:18 AM UTC-5, noel.wade wrote:
> I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts
>
> after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:
>
>
>
> I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it
>
> over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:
>
> the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple
>
> of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the
>
> "Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very
>
> accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.
>
>
>
> For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over
>
> the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of
>
> altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"
>
> doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/
>
> secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if
>
> my logger dies during a flight.
>
>
>
> For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen
>
> brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-
>
> hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no
>
> exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2
>
> hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying
>
> the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to
>
> plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB
>
> port to provide supplemental power.
>
>
>
> I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with
>
> XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).
>
>
>
> The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software
>
> options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the
>
> need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-
>
> branded hardware.
>
>
>
> All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same
>
> functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or
>
> competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine
>
> (LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
>
> slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
>
> differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal
>
> preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up
>
> initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are
>
> very customizable so I can group information together in ways that
>
> make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and
>
> information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs
>
> can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
>
> for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
>
> figure out just what's important at the moment.
>
>
>
> --Noel

I can't agree that they are all the same. Have you really tried them all?

"(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
differences are styling, not function."

I can't speak to the others but I find XC-Soar far less user freindly that CN or even GNII. Admittedly, XC-Soar is extremely flexible and jam-packed with techie goodies but misses the point for cockpit usability (making it useless IMO).

-Jim

[Dan Marotta]

All good points except there's no mention of transflective display
technology which uses less power in bright ambient light (in the cockpit).
My Streak lasts for well over 4 hours on a sunny day at full brightness. I
have it plumbed into ship's power (with a fuse and a toggle switch) for
those extra long soaring days.

It also takes HD pictures and video and can be used as a tablet and cell
phone if desired (I don't), a music player (too distracting in flight), etc.
The purpose-built devices can't perform any of those functions, to my
knowledge, and cost a bunch more.

I agree fully with your assessment of the available software.


"noel.wade" > wrote in message
...
> I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts
> after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:
>
> I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it
> over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:
> the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple
> of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the
> "Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very
> accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.
>
> For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over
> the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of
> altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"
> doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/
> secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if
> my logger dies during a flight.
>
> For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen
> brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-
> hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no
> exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2
> hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying
> the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to
> plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB
> port to provide supplemental power.
>
> I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with
> XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).
>
> The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software
> options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the
> need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-
> branded hardware.
>
> All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same
> functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or
> competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine
> (LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
> slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
> differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal
> preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up
> initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are
> very customizable so I can group information together in ways that
> make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and
> information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs
> can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
> for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
> figure out just what's important at the moment.
>
> --Noel

[Roel Baardman]

> Admittedly, XC-Soar is extremely flexible and jam-packed with techie goodies but misses the point for cockpit usability (making it useless IMO).

Having never used any software in flight, I am curious about this remark.
I'm wondering if you can elaborate a bit on what you think what the point for cockpit usability roughly is?

Roel

[Dan Marotta]

"Evan Ludeman" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 9, 1:53 am, "noel.wade" > wrote:

<snip>

Ohhhhhh yes. An essential feature is being able to turn all the
distraction off. Unfortunately, the great temptation is to leave too
much of it on, on the theory that it might be useful (been through
that, too).

-Evan Ludeman / T8

How true! I thought the moving map was great until I realized that the
contrast is so much better with the terrain display turned off. Besides,
what I see outside the window looks so much more realistic!

[Dan Marotta]

Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.

It's all about what you're used to... It's the same with every new
whiz-bang thingy.


"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> On Sunday, December 9, 2012 1:53:18 AM UTC-5, noel.wade wrote:
>> I'm an IT professional and a glider pilot, and here are my thoughts
>>
>> after a lot of testing and experiementation over the last 5 years:
>>
>>
>>
>> I've got a Vertica V1 and intend to get a V2 shortly. I prefer it
>>
>> over several other PDA/PNA devices i've owned and tried, including:
>>
>> the original Oudie, iPAX hx4700, HP 310, Mio Moov Spirit, and a couple
>>
>> of chinese PNAs I've bought over the years to test. The V1 has the
>>
>> "Oudie-like" GPS chip which does smoothing, therefore it is not very
>>
>> accurate during circling. The V2 fixes that problem.
>>
>>
>>
>> For my V1, I pipe in data from my logger to my gliding program over
>>
>> the USB port (so I see EXACTLY what my logger is seeing, in terms of
>>
>> altitudes and distances to waypoints) - so the V1 GPS "problem"
>>
>> doesn't affect me in the slightest. I use the V1 GPS as a backup/
>>
>> secondary input into my gliding program - its there only to help me if
>>
>> my logger dies during a flight.
>>
>>
>>
>> For _all_ of the newer PDA/PNA devices, you pay a price for the screen
>>
>> brightness: battery-life. Displays are far and away the most power-
>>
>> hungry parts of all modern computing devices, and PNAs are no
>>
>> exception. Almost no device out there will give you more than about 2
>>
>> hours of flying time, if you're using the GPS receiver and displaying
>>
>> the screen at any usable level of brightness. So its mandatory to
>>
>> plumb into ship's power or buy an external battery and use the USB
>>
>> port to provide supplemental power.
>>
>>
>>
>> I've also been a longtime user of LK8000 (and I used to fly with
>>
>> XCSoar back before LK8000 was available).
>>
>>
>>
>> The Naviter/SeeYou folks are nice; but with all the free software
>>
>> options out there that are excellent (such as LK8000), I don't see the
>>
>> need to pay extra amounts of money for SeeYou software or their Oudie-
>>
>> branded hardware.
>>
>>
>>
>> All of the top software programs perform almost all of the same
>>
>> functions nowadays. For normal pilots making normal cross-country or
>>
>> competition flights, any of the major software options will work fine
>>
>> (LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
>>
>> slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
>>
>> differences are styling, not function. As I said, my personal
>>
>> preference is LK8000 - its got a few extra menus and bits to set up
>>
>> initially; but I find it is responsive in-flight and the displays are
>>
>> very customizable so I can group information together in ways that
>>
>> make sense for me. LK8000 also lets me easily turn OFF features and
>>
>> information I don't care about; which is nice. I think these programs
>>
>> can give you way too MUCH info, and it takes precious extra seconds
>>
>> for your eyes and brain to read and filter the info on the screen, to
>>
>> figure out just what's important at the moment.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Noel
>
> I can't agree that they are all the same. Have you really tried them all?
>
> "(LK8000, XCSoar, SeeYouMobile, ClearNav, LX, etc). They may have
> slightly different menus and iconography, but in the end the
> differences are styling, not function."
>
> I can't speak to the others but I find XC-Soar far less user freindly that
> CN or even GNII. Admittedly, XC-Soar is extremely flexible and jam-packed
> with techie goodies but misses the point for cockpit usability (making it
> useless IMO).
>
> -Jim

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Dec 9, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
> find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
> glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.

Naw, a five minute briefing on CN will get all the essentials. It's
designed that way.

CN setup is less than 1/10 of what it takes to get XCSoar going. No
exaggeration.

Power comes up a lot. CN isn't as bad as some imagine. 400 mA is
typical average.

Evan Ludeman for CNi
For more CNi discussion, please see come to our forum
www.clearnav.net

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 16:57:39 +0000, Roel Baardman wrote:

> I'm wondering if you can elaborate a bit on what you think what the
> point for cockpit usability roughly is?
>
My personal 'must-have' requirements are that, assuming you entered the
task before taking a launch:

- if its a good day and you complete the task, you shouldn't have had
to touch the system during the flight, i.e. you get task start and
finish notifications, the display zooms in as you approach a turnpoint,
there is a beep and the next TP is selected as soon as you have a point
in the sector and the display zooms out again.

- if you need to skip a TP, abandon the task and head home, or get a
course for the nearest landable field, these should all be doable
without messing about with menus, etc.

- the map shouldn't be cluttered with airspace unless there's a
possibility you'll enter it.

That's my definition and please note that in the UK we seldom if ever
need to change tasks after take-off.

HTH


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Dec 9, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
> find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
> glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.

Naw, a five minute briefing on CN will get all the essentials. It's
designed that way.

CN setup is less than 1/10 of what it takes to get XCSoar going. No
exaggeration.

Power comes up a lot. CN isn't as bad as some imagine. 400 mA is
typical average.

Evan Ludeman for CNi
For more CNi discussion, please see come to our forum
htp://www.clearnav.net

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Dec 9, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
> find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
> glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.

Naw, a five minute briefing on CN will get all the essentials. It's
designed that way.

CN setup is less than 1/10 of what it takes to get XCSoar going. No
exaggeration.

Power comes up a lot. CN isn't as bad as some imagine. 400 mA is
typical average.

Evan Ludeman for CNi
For more CNi discussion, please see come to our forum
http://www.clearnav.net

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Dec 9, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
> Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
> find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
> glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.

Naw, a five minute briefing on CN will get all the essentials. It's
designed that way.

CN setup is less than 1/10 of what it takes to get XCSoar going. No
exaggeration.

Power comes up a lot. CN isn't as bad as some imagine. 400 mA is
typical average.

Evan Ludeman for CNi
For more CNi discussion, please see our forum
http://www.clearnav.net

[Naviter Info]

Allow me please do disagree on the Power Consumption issue.

I would argue that it is an issue considering everything that we pack into our cockpits these days.

At 12V CN consumes 400mA, V2 300mA while Oudie 2 exactly because of a less power hungry LCD (which is not the same as in the V2) and a more modern processor takes between 200-220mA. That is full brightness, processor running at full speed. It's about half of CN and ~30% less than a V2. It means that it will run 2h 45min off its internal 1450mAh battery or if you like - it will give you almost 3 hours of navigation after everything else has failed in the cockpit (figures valid for Oudie 2's shipped after September 2012).

This is significant when you multiply this with as many hours as you will want to be airborne with all your electronic gear working flawlessly. While CN and V2 will easily consume most of a standard lead battery on a good flight you can connect a Nano (even over Bluetooth) to Oudie 2 and combined still consume less than the other two in this comparison. And get more value out of it (fully IGC approved logger file).

This is the reason why at Naviter we chose not to install an ancient power hungry GPS and processor into Oudie 2 but rather pack all the interface cables you will ever need to connect to a better data source right into the box.

[[email protected]]

So Martin, what is your choice of software?

On Sunday, December 9, 2012 12:49:57 PM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> >
>
> My personal 'must-have' requirements are that, assuming you entered the
>
> task before taking a launch:
>
>
>
> - if its a good day and you complete the task, you shouldn't have had
>
> to touch the system during the flight, i.e. you get task start and
>
> finish notifications, the display zooms in as you approach a turnpoint,
>
> there is a beep and the next TP is selected as soon as you have a point
>
> in the sector and the display zooms out again.
>
>
>
> - if you need to skip a TP, abandon the task and head home, or get a
>
> course for the nearest landable field, these should all be doable
>
> without messing about with menus, etc.
>
>
>
> - the map shouldn't be cluttered with airspace unless there's a
>
> possibility you'll enter it.
>
>
>
> That's my definition and please note that in the UK we seldom if ever
>
> need to change tasks after take-off.
>
>
>
> HTH
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>
> org |

[Roel Baardman]

Andrej Kolar wrote:
>Oudie 2 and Oudie 2 Lite are the same hardware. They just come with differe
nt licenses.

Allow me to deviate from the main discussion a bit please.
I'm a bit confused that your hardware platforms are still aimed at Windows Mobile, while you recently announced Android software and a Android-enabled
roadmap for the future.
Can we expect hardware running Android in the future, with SeeYou Mobile on it?

Roel

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:11:07 -0800, beensoaring wrote:

> So Martin, what is your choice of software?
>
LK8000 3.0d.

It does all of the above. By tapping the lettering in the top left corner
of the screen you step through all the TPs in the current task, Home
(which might not be part of the task), the best alternate landout and (I
think) the last thermal.

Functionally I see very little difference between LK8000 and XCSoar (they
have a common ancestor and both run on my Binatone PNA). I use LK8000
because I prefer its display layout to that of XCSoar: I prefer to have
data overlaid onto the map rather than permanently losing screen area to
the infobox array, but of course ymmv.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Dec 9, 1:10*pm, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
> On Dec 9, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
>
> > Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
> > find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
> > glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.
>
> Naw, a five minute briefing on CN will get all the essentials. *It's
> designed that way.
>
> CN setup is less than 1/10 of what it takes to get XCSoar going. *No
> exaggeration.
>
> Power comes up a lot. *CN isn't as bad as some imagine. *400 mA is
> typical average.
>
> Evan Ludeman for CNi
> For more CNi discussion, please see our forumhttp://www.clearnav.net

I fly with CN and Streak as a backup. Yes I have a moving map backup
to be able to avoid airspace violations if primary instrument fails.
In short CN is the easiest to use software available today. I still
have a wish list for some CN updates but even if they don't happen I
am still very happy with it. The Streak runs XCSoar and I must say
that with each XCSoar release I feel XCSoar is getting closer to how
CN functions e.g. task optimization, requiring less workload. I used
to use LK8000 but its task support was not as good as XCSoar. I feel
LK8000 is perfect for X-C flying but for contests there are other
choices. I also used WinPilot Pro in the past and I liked it but that
was years ago. I have never flown with SeeYou Mobile.

If I were to do it again:
1) Non competition flying I would buy in this order: Oudie with LK8000
followed by Streak with XCSoar
2) Competition flying: CN followed by Streak with XCSoar

One thing I find problematic with XCSoar is some very small fonts and
that is one of the reasons LK8000 is rated better for non-comp flying.

Now in regards to power use. My CN drained my batteries a couple of
times totally, and yes I found CN still works at 8.5 volts, :(. On one
battery I have 302, CN and a 2 year old Dittel radio (I don't talk
much). My battery lasted about 5 hours. Since then I am very careful
and I always use CN in PowerSave mode. On max brightness you need to
have good power supply. My next batteries will be the K2s so I can
feed the beast (I mean CN). Despite the power hungry CN I still think
it is the best unit for comp flying not so for pleasure.

[Andrzej Kobus]

On Dec 10, 7:18*pm, Andrzej Kobus > wrote:
> On Dec 9, 1:10*pm, Evan Ludeman > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 9, 12:02*pm, "Dan Marotta" > wrote:
>
> > > Gotta admit that I haven't had the privilege of flying a ClearNav, but I
> > > find XCSoar extremely easy to use and I'll bet that if I got a flight in a
> > > glider with CN, I'd find it complex and confusing.
>
> > Naw, a five minute briefing on CN will get all the essentials. *It's
> > designed that way.
>
> > CN setup is less than 1/10 of what it takes to get XCSoar going. *No
> > exaggeration.
>
> > Power comes up a lot. *CN isn't as bad as some imagine. *400 mA is
> > typical average.
>
> > Evan Ludeman for CNi
> > For more CNi discussion, please see our forumhttp://www.clearnav.net
>
> I fly with CN and Streak as a backup. Yes I have a moving map backup
> to be able to avoid airspace violations if primary instrument fails.
> In short CN is the easiest to use software available today. I still
> have a wish list for some CN updates but even if they don't happen I
> am still very happy with it. The Streak runs XCSoar and I must say
> that with each XCSoar release I feel XCSoar is getting closer to how
> CN functions e.g. task optimization, requiring less workload. I used
> to use LK8000 but its task support was not as good as XCSoar. I feel
> LK8000 is perfect for X-C flying but for contests there are other
> choices. I also used WinPilot Pro in the past and I liked it but that
> was years ago. I have never flown with SeeYou Mobile.
>
> If I were to do it again:
> 1) Non competition flying I would buy in this order: Oudie with LK8000
> followed by Streak with XCSoar
> 2) Competition flying: CN followed by Streak with XCSoar
>
> One thing I find problematic with XCSoar is some very small fonts and
> that is one of the reasons LK8000 is rated better for non-comp flying.
>
> Now in regards to power use. My CN drained my batteries a couple of
> times totally, and yes I found CN still works at 8.5 volts, :(. On one
> battery I have 302, CN and a 2 year old Dittel radio (I don't talk
> much). My battery lasted about 5 hours. Since then I am very careful
> and I always use CN in PowerSave mode. On max brightness you need to
> have good power supply. My next batteries will be the K2s so I can
> feed the beast (I mean CN). Despite the power hungry CN I still think
> it is the best unit for comp flying not so for pleasure.

By the way I have no experience with Ultimate hardware. It might be
another great choice. Seems very readable. I should have said I would
give it a good consideration next time around.

[[email protected]]

No need for confusion. Once you have stable software and hardware winning World Championships you don't want to change it other than carefully expanding its features.

Oudie 2 display is the best screen you can get for soaring. The tradeoff is that it can only be mounted on a Windows CE device. If the software does what one needs it is irrelevant what OS is running in the background imho.

By announcing that we are going to develop SeeYou Mobile also for Android and iOS devices we are by no means dropping the support for Windows CE! On the contrary. Oudie 2 is reliable and stable. Until there is a similar Android device and the software is running anywhere near as stable as it does on the Oudie 2 it will remain the recommended platform for SeeYou Mobile.

> Can we expect hardware running Android in the future, with SeeYou Mobile on it?

A sunlight readable screen made by Samsung or LG would be best and most future-proof wouldn't it? If it doesn't happen let's just see what does. It's difficult to predict. Particularly the future.

Andrej Kolar
--
glider pilots use
http://www.Naviter.com


On Monday, December 10, 2012 6:01:50 PM UTC+1, Roel Baardman wrote:
> Andrej Kolar wrote:
>
> >Oudie 2 and Oudie 2 Lite are the same hardware. They just come with differe
>
> nt licenses.
>
>
>
> Allow me to deviate from the main discussion a bit please.
>
> I'm a bit confused that your hardware platforms are still aimed at Windows Mobile, while you recently announced Android software and a Android-enabled
>
> roadmap for the future.
>
> Can we expect hardware running Android in the future, with SeeYou Mobile on it?
>
>
>
> Roel

[[email protected]]

> Oudie 2 display is the best screen you can get for soaring.

Let me just slightly rephrase that. I should have added "on a mobile device". The screens from LX 9000, Craggy Ultimate etc are of course brighter but without touch panel and have to be mounted. Comparing those would be comparing apples to oranges.

[JohnDeRosa]

A comment or two on the "build your own system for cheap" versus
"buying a turnkey system".

Yes, the free software is pretty darned good these days. There are
PNA's that you can purchase for little cost. However, there are those
that don't want to fool with all that - even though it is relatively
easy to do. Analogy - I like to install/repair everything at my home
(except for roofs) but most people do not.

So there is a place for the Naviter and other fully turnkey systems.
Some just want to plunk down their money and have the finished product
in their hands. Basically paying someone else to build the system for
them.

There is a third choice - the system integrators. Wasn't there a
group that was selling complete PNA+FreeSoftware systems fully
configured? They seemed to have disappeared - I suppose because there
wasn't a large enough market?

No matter what there is still the issue of getting it installed in
your glider, mounting, power, etc. And even that is intimidating to
some.

So there is room for every flavor of glider driver.

- John "Techie" DeRosa

[Heady .]

At 22:42 12 December 2012, JohnDeRosa wrote:
>There is a third choice - the system integrators. Wasn't there a
>group that was selling complete PNA+FreeSoftware systems fully
>configured? They seemed to have disappeared - I suppose because there
>wasn't a large enough market?

Gliderguider are going strong.
http://www.gliderguider.net/products.htm

PNA+Software configured as requested.
Annual update options available.
Custom Cable options available.
Custom electrical/electronic consultancy/design if required.

Not affiliated - just a happy customer.

A

[[email protected]]

I have a supply of MIO's. $125 plus shipping and I will provide a MIO, suction mount, 12v cable and fully functioning LK8000 with maps and turn points of your choosing. Lanebush at bellsouth dot net.

Lane
XF