Ground tests & pilot logbook.

[Paul Lee]

Just a curious question here. Normally when I fly, my pilot logbook
time starts when the hobbs meter starts ticking. That includes probably
10 minutes of taxing, runnup, etc.

What about taxing tests on a experimental? Does that count?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 9 Feb 2004 20:47:53 -0800, (Paul Lee) wrote:

>Just a curious question here. Normally when I fly, my pilot logbook
>time starts when the hobbs meter starts ticking. That includes probably
>10 minutes of taxing, runnup, etc.
>
>What about taxing tests on a experimental? Does that count?

IIRC, you're supposed to log from the point "the aircraft first takes
movement for flight." If the purpose of the engine start is something
other than flight, you don't log it.

Ron Wanttaja

[Big John]

Paul

In military you started your time as you started your takeoff roll.
You continued to log time until engine shut down in parking area.

Guess they thought that if you had to hold for take off it shouldn't
count and after landing there was not much traffic taxing to bump your
time.

In GA I logged the Hobbs. Lets see what other people do.

Big John



On 9 Feb 2004 20:47:53 -0800, (Paul Lee) wrote:

>Just a curious question here. Normally when I fly, my pilot logbook
>time starts when the hobbs meter starts ticking. That includes probably
>10 minutes of taxing, runnup, etc.
>
>What about taxing tests on a experimental? Does that count?

[nauga]

"Paul Lee" wrote:

> What about taxing tests on a experimental? Does that count?

Taxi time only counts when it's done in order to fly.
Ground tests in and of themselves should be logged
in the _airplane_ record (I recorded time from
startup to shutdown) but not in the pilot's log.

From CFR 14 Part 1.1, definitions:

Flight time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for
the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after
landing; ...

It's that 'purpose of flight' thing that gets you.

Dave 'iced in' Hyde

[Jim Carriere]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On 9 Feb 2004 20:47:53 -0800, (Paul Lee) wrote:
>
> >Just a curious question here. Normally when I fly, my pilot logbook
> >time starts when the hobbs meter starts ticking. That includes probably
> >10 minutes of taxing, runnup, etc.
> >
> >What about taxing tests on a experimental? Does that count?
>
> IIRC, you're supposed to log from the point "the aircraft first takes
> movement for flight." If the purpose of the engine start is something
> other than flight, you don't log it.

I think counting the time on the Hobbs meter comes from the way you pay for
aircraft rental... most places charge for the time on the meter, so you
might as well log it. If it's your own aircraft, your maintenance schedule
probably runs off the Hobbs meter, so you're still paying for that time.

Of course Ron, you're right, the .1 or .2 between startup and taking the
runway technically aren't supposed to be logged.

If one is taxi testing and inadvertently take wing, well, you can legally
log that hop- I think you're actually supposed to. Also, I'm pretty sure I
got air under all four of my car tires (at the same time) once or twice a
lot time ago, but that's a logbook entry better left out... :)

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:14:29 -0500, Jim Carriere wrote:

> Of course Ron, you're right, the .1 or .2 between startup and taking the
> runway technically aren't supposed to be logged.

Yes, they can be logged if the purpose was to fly. If you taxi'd over to
the pump and back to the hangar it doesn't count.

[nauga]

Jim Carriere wrote

> Of course Ron, you're right, the .1 or .2 between startup and taking the
> runway technically aren't supposed to be logged.

If you're taxiing out in order to intentionally fly it
sure is loggable as flight time. I posted the FAA's
definition of flight time elsewhere in the thread.

As for how to measure logged time, I don't have a
Hobbs or a reliable recording tach in the cockpit.
I use 'wris****ch' time.

Dave 'not P-51 time' Hyde

[Morgans]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote

Also, I'm pretty sure I
> got air under all four of my car tires (at the same time) once or twice a
> lot time ago, but that's a logbook entry better left out... :)

Those of you in Northwest Ohio, and many of the other flat states, are
familiar with the "humps" that all of the railroad tracks are on. For those
of you that are not, they are about the greatest jump ramps made. Some are
even fantastic.

Most front engine cars will jump, and land *very* front heavy. Ask a friend
of mine, how that hole got in the oil pan of his parent's caddy. <g> I had
a Corvair. They jump very nicely. I regularly cleared a whole second of
airtime, and perhaps a bit more.

After I bought my new car, my brother got the Corvair. It died of tin worm,
and from the front unibody allowing the tops of the tires to be closer
together than the bottoms.. not good.

I later found my brother had made the track jumping into a whole new art
form....
--
Jim in NC


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[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:14:29 -0500, "Jim Carriere" >
wrote:

>"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message

>> IIRC, you're supposed to log from the point "the aircraft first takes
>> movement for flight." If the purpose of the engine start is something
>> other than flight, you don't log it.
>
>I think counting the time on the Hobbs meter comes from the way you pay for
>aircraft rental... most places charge for the time on the meter, so you
>might as well log it. If it's your own aircraft, your maintenance schedule
>probably runs off the Hobbs meter, so you're still paying for that time.

Actually, I believe maintenance schedules are usually driven by tach time.
I got a hobbs meter in my plane, but I'm gonna chuck the thing one of these
days. Never look at it.

>Of course Ron, you're right, the .1 or .2 between startup and taking the
>runway technically aren't supposed to be logged.

Thanks, but I apparently wasn't clear: If the purpose of the engine start
is to take the airplane to the runway, I feel the time should be logged as
flight time. Ditto for the taxi back to the tiedown/hangar after landing.
If you stop at the gas pumps on the way, you *don't* log the time from the
pumps to the hangar...the purpose of the movement was not flight.

Years ago, I pointed out this philosophy had an interesting loophole: I
could log "flight time" when I was *not* in the airplane. Y'see, the club
Fly Baby didn't have a starter, hence I had to hand-prop it. When the
engine started, the thrust would pull the airplane slightly forward, onto
the chocks or the limit of the tiedown rope. The airplane "was taking
movement for flight," though there wasn't anyone in the cockpit.

And don't forget: The flight isn't over 'till the wheels are chocked.
Can't do THAT from the cockpit, either. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Barnyard BOb]

>As for how to measure logged time, I don't have a
>Hobbs or a reliable recording tach in the cockpit.
>I use 'wris****ch' time.
>
>Dave 'not P-51 time' Hyde
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

KISS.

However, you cannot believe how pricey
and elaborate some doods can get in the
name of flying.... even with a wris****ch.


Barnyard BOb - anybody seen my $9.99 Timex?

[Rich S.]

"nauga" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> If you're taxiing out in order to intentionally fly it
> sure is loggable as flight time. I posted the FAA's
> definition of flight time elsewhere in the thread.

So if you intend to go flying and taxi to the gas pump only to find they are
out of fuel, then taxi back to the hangar - you can log the time to the pump
but not back. I got it!

Rich "It's all in the intent" S.

[Ron Natalie]

"Jim Carriere" > wrote in message ...
>> Of course Ron, you're right, the .1 or .2 between startup and taking the
> runway technically aren't supposed to be logged.
>

Ron W. didn't say that. The .1 and .2 prior to taking the runway ARE supposed
to be logged. The rule again says "first moves under it's own power." As far as I
am concerned, my plane moves a tiny bit as soon as the engine starts, so hobbs time
is pretty accurate when it is connected to the oil pressure.

Of course, in the Navion, the Hobbs meter is getting connected to the nose gear
switch. Saves a little on maintenance times.

[Russell Kent]

"Rich S." wrote:

> So if you intend to go flying and taxi to the gas pump only to find they are
> out of fuel, then taxi back to the hangar - you can log the time to the pump
> but not back. I got it!

Nope. You taxied to the fuel pumps with the intention of fueling the aircraft.
Once at the pumps, you shut down. End of cycle. Next engine start you go from
the fuel pumps to the runway (with the intention of flying), and that taxi time
would count.

Russell Kent

[Rich S.]

"Russell Kent" > wrote in message
...
> "Rich S." wrote:
>
> > So if you intend to go flying and taxi to the gas pump only to find they
are
> > out of fuel, then taxi back to the hangar - you can log the time to the
pump
> > but not back. I got it!
>
> Nope. You taxied to the fuel pumps with the intention of fueling the
aircraft.
> Once at the pumps, you shut down. End of cycle. Next engine start you go
from
> the fuel pumps to the runway (with the intention of flying), and that taxi
time
> would count.

Actually, I was taxiing PAST the fuel pumps with my little heart set on
flying, but then realized I needed fuel and a Snickers, so I stopped.

Why am I reminded of the Orwellian concept of Thoughtcrime? Much like the
current rage of Hatecrime, the intent of the perpetrator is a factor in the
seriousness of the offense. Here, the intent of the pilot determines the
application of the regulation.

Rich "What fools these morals be!" S
:o)