Articles

[John Cochrane[_3_]]

It's the solstice, so you won't be doing much soaring... but you might
want to read about it.

I put two new articles on my webpage

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#safety_rules

"Team flying." Pilot to pilot radio communication will be allowed at
regionals this year. Some thoughts on how to make this innovation
work, and some hints on team flying.

The 2012 contest safety report. It's been a bad year for low-altitude
maneuvering. Accident review and some thoughts on steps we might take
to improve the situation.

I'm going to send "team flying" to soaring fairly soon, but I'm
curious to hear reaction from friends and the world of r.a.s. first.
That usually helps me to write better articles.

John Cochrane

[son_of_flubber]

PowerFlarm not required at competitions? I guess that PowerFlarm must already have 100% adoption on a voluntary basis.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, December 21, 2012 7:44:27 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> PowerFlarm not required at competitions? I guess that PowerFlarm must already have 100% adoption on a voluntary basis.

Please, let's not start that again. We've been around this for hundreds of posts.

John Cochrane

[K]

On Friday, December 21, 2012 5:07:33 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

>
> I'm going to send "team flying" to soaring fairly soon, but I'm
>
> curious to hear reaction from friends and the world of r.a.s. first.
>
> That usually helps me to write better articles.
>
>
>
> John Cochrane
John,
Did you know there is a bunch of interesting articles on that web link. OK seriously, thanks for posting, I never knew you have a website with all those articles. As far as the team stuff goes, and this is coming from a rank amateur, Im all for it. There was substantial mentoring going on at the last 2 contests I have been to (One even assigned mentors to all the beginners and those unfamiliar with the area) all before launching of course so whats the problem with getting some guidance in the air. You wouldn't want to see someone having their hand held around a course but I think some cooperation and concerted effort will add to the contest experience. Take a look at other forms of racing such as Nascar or NHRA Drag Racing and there is limited success without teamwork. I look forward to this.
Also, thanks for all the legwork and research on the 2012 contest safety article. Lets hope you don't have to write one for the 2013 season.
Best Holiday wishes to you and RAS

[Alexander Swagemakers[_2_]]

From a European perspective its almost hard to understand what the big deal is about allowing team flying. Probably its just because it never occurred to me that radio communication could be banned. Its usually a lot more fun if you can share your frustration and joy on the spot with your team, even if not flying together or even in the same class. I'm sure you wont't regret it;-)

[Steve Koerner]

If glider racing were an athletic endeavor like gymnastics or football then it would not seem inappropriate or out of the ordinary to recieve real time advice from others during competition.

But glider racing is a thinking endeavor, more like chess. It certainly isn't reasonable or acceptable for chess players to receive advise from others about how to get out of a predicament. Why is it reasonable for glider racers to get outside advise about what would be the best next move?

Only the brain(s) onboard should participate during actual competition. The US has it right in this case and should not yield to a bad idea even if others have.

[Alexander Swagemakers[_2_]]

For pure athletic reasons I agree. External advice will not help level the playing field. But most guys fly competitions because its fun and radio contact definitely helps enjoy our sometimes lonely sport.

[rk]

maanantai, 24. joulukuuta 2012 7.42.22 UTC+2 Steve Koerner kirjoitti:
> If glider racing were an athletic endeavor like gymnastics or football then it would not seem inappropriate or out of the ordinary to recieve real time advice from others during competition.
>
>
>
> But glider racing is a thinking endeavor, more like chess. It certainly isn't reasonable or acceptable for chess players to receive advise from others about how to get out of a predicament. Why is it reasonable for glider racers to get outside advise about what would be the best next move?
>
>
>
> Only the brain(s) onboard should participate during actual competition. The US has it right in this case and should not yield to a bad idea even if others have.

What makes you think every advice you hear from the radio is useful? ;)

My first lesson in comp. flying almost 2 decades ago was: Never believe a word you hear from the radio during competition. If there is some important things said, it is usually "coded" in a way that it is useless to anyone execpt the guy it was meant to: "Planned start time A+5min ", "Turn left 30 degrees after Z" etc. You'll learn the tricks in no time.

[Jim[_32_]]

On Friday, December 21, 2012 7:07:33 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
> It's the solstice, so you won't be doing much soaring... but you might
>
> want to read about it.
>
>
>
> I put two new articles on my webpage
>
>
>
> http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#safety_rules
>
>
>
> "Team flying." Pilot to pilot radio communication will be allowed at
>
> regionals this year. Some thoughts on how to make this innovation
>
> work, and some hints on team flying.
>
>
>
> The 2012 contest safety report. It's been a bad year for low-altitude
>
> maneuvering. Accident review and some thoughts on steps we might take
>
> to improve the situation.
>
>
>
> I'm going to send "team flying" to soaring fairly soon, but I'm
>
> curious to hear reaction from friends and the world of r.a.s. first.
>
> That usually helps me to write better articles.
>
>
>
> John Cochrane

If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to do is text each other. Rules are for fools. The less the better.

-Jim

[Jim[_32_]]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 12:43:37 AM UTC-5, rk wrote:
> maanantai, 24. joulukuuta 2012 7.42.22 UTC+2 Steve Koerner kirjoitti:
>
> > If glider racing were an athletic endeavor like gymnastics or football then it would not seem inappropriate or out of the ordinary to recieve real time advice from others during competition.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > But glider racing is a thinking endeavor, more like chess. It certainly isn't reasonable or acceptable for chess players to receive advise from others about how to get out of a predicament. Why is it reasonable for glider racers to get outside advise about what would be the best next move?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Only the brain(s) onboard should participate during actual competition. The US has it right in this case and should not yield to a bad idea even if others have.
>
>
>
> What makes you think every advice you hear from the radio is useful? ;)
>
>
>
> My first lesson in comp. flying almost 2 decades ago was: Never believe a word you hear from the radio during competition. If there is some important things said, it is usually "coded" in a way that it is useless to anyone execpt the guy it was meant to: "Planned start time A+5min ", "Turn left 30 degrees after Z" etc. You'll learn the tricks in no time.

(The following is a repost as the first apparently didn't go. Sorry id it duplicates:)

If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to do is SMS text each other. Rules are for fools. The less the better.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:

> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to do is SMS text each other.

Texting while flying? ;(

[Dan Marotta]

Just like while driving, only now they'll more likely kill themselves than
me on my motorcycle.


"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:
>
>> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to do is SMS
>> text each other.
>
> Texting while flying? ;(

[SoaringXCellence]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:13:17 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Just like while driving, only now they'll more likely kill themselves than
>
> me on my motorcycle.
>
>
>
>
>
> "son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to do is SMS
>
> >> text each other.
>
> >
>
> > Texting while flying? ;(

OK, I'll jump in here with my flame suit on:

With today's smartphones, it's likely that you can just touch a button and "talk" to your phone to send a message. No different really than the push-to-talk on the control stick and completely "stealth".

Flame on!

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 12/26/2012 8:20 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:13:17 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Just like while driving, only now they'll more likely kill
>> themselves than
>>
>> me on my motorcycle.
>>
>> "son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to
>>>> do is SMS
>>
>>>> text each other.
>>
>>> Texting while flying? ;(
>
> OK, I'll jump in here with my flame suit on:
>
> With today's smartphones, it's likely that you can just touch a
> button and "talk" to your phone to send a message. No different
> really than the push-to-talk on the control stick and completely
> "stealth".

Where do you guys fly, that your phones work in the air? How high are
you? I don't have much luck with phones in the Western US, which is why
I have Spot.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:34:54 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 12/26/2012 8:20 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:13:17 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >> Just like while driving, only now they'll more likely kill
>
> >> themselves than
>
> >>
>
> >> me on my motorcycle.
>
> >>
>
> >> "son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
>
> >>
>
> >> ...
>
> >>
>
> >>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>>> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to
>
> >>>> do is SMS
>
> >>
>
> >>>> text each other.
>
> >>
>
> >>> Texting while flying? ;(
>
> >
>
> > OK, I'll jump in here with my flame suit on:
>
> >
>
> > With today's smartphones, it's likely that you can just touch a
>
> > button and "talk" to your phone to send a message. No different
>
> > really than the push-to-talk on the control stick and completely
>
> > "stealth".
>
>
>
> Where do you guys fly, that your phones work in the air? How high are
>
> you? I don't have much luck with phones in the Western US, which is why
>
> I have Spot.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> email me)

They are suggesting SMS not voice, works lots more places.

Darryl

[Ramy]

On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:43:46 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 8:34:54 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> > On 12/26/2012 8:20 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:13:17 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >> Just like while driving, only now they'll more likely kill
>
> >
>
> > >> themselves than
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> me on my motorcycle.
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> "son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >> ...
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>>> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to
>
> >
>
> > >>>> do is SMS
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>>> text each other.
>
> >
>
> > >>
>
> >
>
> > >>> Texting while flying? ;(
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > OK, I'll jump in here with my flame suit on:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > With today's smartphones, it's likely that you can just touch a
>
> >
>
> > > button and "talk" to your phone to send a message. No different
>
> >
>
> > > really than the push-to-talk on the control stick and completely
>
> >
>
> > > "stealth".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Where do you guys fly, that your phones work in the air? How high are
>
> >
>
> > you? I don't have much luck with phones in the Western US, which is why
>
> >
>
> > I have Spot.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> >
>
> > Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> >
>
> > email me)
>
>
>
> They are suggesting SMS not voice, works lots more places.
>
>
>
> Darryl

If there is no cell signal, SMS does not work either, although it only takes a split of a second of signal to get a message through. But in practice, I found I have no cell signal once more than 3-4000 feet AGL, and no much luck with SMS messages as well, since if it didn't go through, you have to manually resend it, as it is not automatically trying to resend itself if failed.

Ramy

[Peter von Tresckow]

Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> On 12/26/2012 8:20 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 7:13:17 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Just like while driving, only now they'll more likely kill
>>> themselves than
>>>
>>> me on my motorcycle.
>>>
>>> "son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, December 26, 2012 9:14:08 AM UTC-5, Jim wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> If someone wanted to cheat the radio ban all they would have to
>>>>> do is SMS
>>>
>>>>> text each other.
>>>
>>>> Texting while flying? ;(
>>
>> OK, I'll jump in here with my flame suit on:
>>
>> With today's smartphones, it's likely that you can just touch a
>> button and "talk" to your phone to send a message. No different
>> really than the push-to-talk on the control stick and completely
>> "stealth".
>
> Where do you guys fly, that your phones work in the air? How high are
> you? I don't have much luck with phones in the Western US, which is why I have Spot.


SMS usually works in the air. Last month I was able to get a hold of my
uncle in Golden while flying over Monarch pass in a Da-40 at 15.5k.

Pete

[[email protected]]

People who want to cheat in soaring competitions do it much more simply. There are thousands of frequencies. They just move off to a seldom used part of the dial a long way from 123.3. Or they bring along small portable walkie-talkies.

So far this hasn't been a big problem in US soaring; "cheating" has mostly been a few buddies who just can't stop chatting in the air and hasn't affected the scoresheet. If you see two gliders pair flying, and the one in front turns 1 second after the one in back turns, you know what's going on. That sort of thing just isn't happening.

Fortunately, almost all pilots obey the letter and spirit of the rules. And it turns out that being a mediocre pilot and trying to cheat by team flying doesn't work in soaring. In fact, our great pilots seem to be finding that it's very difficult to team fly effectively even when it is legal!

John Cochrane

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:37:40 AM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
>SMS usually works in the air. Last month I was able to get a hold of my uncle in >Golden while flying over Monarch pass in a Da-40 at 15.5k. Pete

Call me bad or dangerous, but I have taken calls and texted while flying my Nimbus 3. When I got out of radio range (not so good crew radio, it turns out), text was the way to communicate with my crew. Yes, it would work at 10K MSL over west Texas. Turn it on when a city was visible off to the side, get signal, send message. Old school phone, numeric keypad. Worked. Have taken calls in flight, too.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 4:54:32 PM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:37:40 AM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
>
> >SMS usually works in the air. Last month I was able to get a hold of my uncle in >Golden while flying over Monarch pass in a Da-40 at 15.5k. Pete
>
>
>
> Call me bad or dangerous, but I have taken calls and texted while flying my Nimbus 3. When I got out of radio range (not so good crew radio, it turns out), text was the way to communicate with my crew. Yes, it would work at 10K MSL over west Texas. Turn it on when a city was visible off to the side, get signal, send message. Old school phone, numeric keypad. Worked. Have taken calls in flight, too.

you're dangerous Mav.

oh yea, i did the same thing on Kowbell.

[Sean F (F2)]

Both excellent articles as usual. Thanks John for the time and insight.

Sean
F2

[4Z]

On Jan 2, 8:03*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 4:54:32 PM UTC-6, Steve Leonard wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:37:40 AM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
>
> > >SMS usually works in the air. Last month I was able to get a hold of my uncle in >Golden while flying over Monarch pass in a Da-40 at 15.5k. Pete
>
> > Call me bad or dangerous, but I have taken calls and texted while flying my Nimbus 3. *When I got out of radio range (not so good crew radio, it turns out), text was the way to communicate with my crew. *Yes, it would work at 10K MSL over west Texas. *Turn it on when a city was visible off to the side, get signal, send message. *Old school phone, numeric keypad.. *Worked. *Have taken calls in flight, too.
>
> you're dangerous Mav.
>
> oh yea, i did the same thing on Kowbell.

I can only plead that the contest organizers who are considering
allowing pilot to pilot coms insist that they are all on an off
frequency. Pilots who ignore the present rules and chatter on the
contest freq are very distracting. Even during non contest flights
the drone on 123.3 can be nearly constant ( you know who you are).
Some people can't hit a thermal without talking about it. The
information is useless or worse. I enjoy talking with my fiends on a
fun flight and try to do it where no one has to listen. If things get
too busy on the common frequencies my inclination is to turn off my
radio so I can get some peace and quiet and do my own flying. This
presents a problem because I won't be listening and hearing possible
safety/traffic conflict information. Even if I was it would be hard
to pick the relevant information out of the chaff. And of course the
pilots who are team chattering on an off frequency won't hear any
warnings on the contest freq. I have no problem with the occasional
remark and have heard some damn funny stuff, but in our wired age,
when everyone can have something to say, way too many do. As the Bard
said, " have more than thou showest, speak less than thou knowest". I
can get way more grumpy but I'll spare you. I'll go crawl under my
bridge now............Harrumph!