Winch demo wanted near St Louis

[kirk.stant]

The St Louis Soaring Association is interested in setting up a winch demo for our members at our field (H07) in Highland, Illinois. Are there any clubs with winches within reasonable distance that are willing to give us a demo, and possibly give ground launch endorsements?

Our club is in the middle of discussions on the feasibility of acquiring and employing a winch, for both cost and membership attraction.

If interested, please contact me directly, at kirk dot stant at gmail dot com.

Kirk
66

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 9:43:08 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> The St Louis Soaring Association is interested in setting up a winch demo for our members at our field (H07) in Highland, Illinois. Are there any clubs with winches within reasonable distance that are willing to give us a demo, and possibly give ground launch endorsements?
>
>
>
> Our club is in the middle of discussions on the feasibility of acquiring and employing a winch, for both cost and membership attraction.
>
>
>
> If interested, please contact me directly, at kirk dot stant at gmail dot com.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

Hire Don Ingraham from Cross Country Soaring in Minnesota. However, unless SLSA owns the land between John Dr and I-70, you are about 500ft short of a practical length. If you can stage near I-70, it'll definitely work. If you don't own it, perhaps you can lease a path through the field. Doesn't have to be too wide, but you'd only be able to launch to the north.

Frank Whiteley

[kirk.stant]

Frank,

Thanks for the info. Yes, SLSA owns the land all the way to I-70, and we have discussed what we would need to do to use it for winch launching - at a minimum a path for the winch cable, to extending the runway as necessary. So our useable field length extends from IL 40 to the south (the displaced threshold) to I-70 to the north. Not ideal, but OK, and we normally launch to the North.

Kirk

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:57:19 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> Frank,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info. Yes, SLSA owns the land all the way to I-70, and we have discussed what we would need to do to use it for winch launching - at a minimum a path for the winch cable, to extending the runway as necessary.. So our useable field length extends from IL 40 to the south (the displaced threshold) to I-70 to the north. Not ideal, but OK, and we normally launch to the North.
>
>
>
> Kirk

With a stout winch and good technique, 1500-1600ft launches would be doable on a regular basis, higher possible, especially with 8-10kts of headwind.

Don's winch sports a 350cid Corvette motor. Check out the video and pictures at www.crosscountrysoaring.com.

If you do this, develop a cadre of good winch drivers. You don't expect all members to fly the tug, don't expect everyone to drive the winch. Others can help with rope retrieves and as launch marshals. Then spend some of that flight scholarship money on youth.

Frank

[Peter Higgs]

Hi, you mention making a pathway as part of the take-off zone. This needs
to be not too narrow. As a worst case scenario you need to allow dropping
space for the cable in the event of a winch stoppage, such as it jumping
out of gear (as happened to me once at 50ft.).

The cable with drouge chute will travel almost 45 degrees from it's release
point in even the slightest cross-wind.
Trying to retrieve the cable from a tree usually results in damage to the
drouge and to the tree.

Also you need to factor this dropping zone into the equation if you are
near any roads. (is I-70 a busy main road?)

Pete (UK)

At 15:56 30 January 2013, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 5:57:19 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
>> Frank,
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks for the info. Yes, SLSA owns the land all the way to I-70, and
>we=
> have discussed what we would need to do to use it for winch launching -
>at=
> a minimum a path for the winch cable, to extending the runway as
>necessary=
>.. So our useable field length extends from IL 40 to the south (the
>displace=
>d threshold) to I-70 to the north. Not ideal, but OK, and we normally
>laun=
>ch to the North.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Kirk
>
>With a stout winch and good technique, 1500-1600ft launches would be
>doable=
> on a regular basis, higher possible, especially with 8-10kts of
headwind.
>
>Don's winch sports a 350cid Corvette motor. Check out the video and
>pictur=
>es at www.crosscountrysoaring.com.
>
>If you do this, develop a cadre of good winch drivers. You don't expect
>al=
>l members to fly the tug, don't expect everyone to drive the winch.
>Others=
> can help with rope retrieves and as launch marshals. Then spend some of
>t=
>hat flight scholarship money on youth.
>
>Frank
>

[Bryan Poehler[_2_]]

At 16:43 29 January 2013, kirk.stant wrote:
>The St Louis Soaring Association is interested in setting up a winch demo

Kirk,

You probably know this but the BGA has a good web page on winch launching
safety at:
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm

Bryan

[Dan Marotta]

I recall years ago when a soaring club in Colorado, USA dropped the winch
cable across overhead power lines. It started quite a grass fire!


"Bryan Poehler" > wrote in message
...
> At 16:43 29 January 2013, kirk.stant wrote:
>>The St Louis Soaring Association is interested in setting up a winch demo
>
> Kirk,
>
> You probably know this but the BGA has a good web page on winch launching
> safety at:
> http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm
>
> Bryan
>
>

[[email protected]]

And naysayers please note you cannot short power lines or cause a spark with modern spectra line. Ya for technology. Karen

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 11:21:25 +0000, Peter Higgs wrote:

> Hi, you mention making a pathway as part of the take-off zone. This
> needs to be not too narrow. As a worst case scenario you need to allow
> dropping space for the cable in the event of a winch stoppage, such as
> it jumping out of gear (as happened to me once at 50ft.).
>
> The cable with drouge chute will travel almost 45 degrees from it's
> release point in even the slightest cross-wind.
> Trying to retrieve the cable from a tree usually results in damage to
> the drouge and to the tree.
>
W"inching 101: NEVER try to retrieve a cable that's off the field by
pulling with the winch.

Send the cable truck down with a bod or two to manually get the cable
back on the field and then pull it in slowly. If the drogue starts to fly
there's every chance that the cross wind that dropped it off the field in
the first place will take it off the field again.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dave Springford]

Kirk,

How long is your field with the overrun?

We use the same type of winch as Don (from Faribault) and with our 2700 ft field, we are routinely achieving heights of 1000-1100 ft AGL, and the highest launches have been 1500-1600 AGL.

Dave

[Bill D]

On Friday, February 1, 2013 9:48:52 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> And naysayers please note you cannot short power lines or cause a spark with modern spectra line. Ya for technology. Karen

Thanks, Karen. That's absolutely true. Among its many other superb attributes, UHMWPE is one of the best dielectric materials.

When making off field rope recoveries, often the best solution is to cut the rope wherever it's convenient to do so and bring it back in bundles. Trying to get it back in one piece can be more trouble than splicing it back together again.

Plastic rope weighs so little one person can carry it all. If you have some drawstring canvas bags, just dumping the rope into the bag hand over hand results in being able to just pull it out again without tangles. Making rope coils cowboy-style does tend to produce tangles.

When you get it back on the field, spend some time figuring out why the winch couldn't pull it all in before it got off field. This is not a problem which should happen if everything is working right.

[[email protected]]

More...do the winch operations that pull the light line for a retrieve winch have more control for a parachute drop in the case of a weak link break?

In a perfect world, its never a line break someplace else, but seems like if a chute took off crosswind after a link snapped, there's a little time to have the retrieve end to snag it back.

BTW. When we train winch drivers we have little contests "flying" the chute down to a specific spot in front of the winch. Some of them get pretty good after ten tries. (Our minimum requirement to operate the the fishing reel solo) Karen

[Bill D]

On Friday, February 1, 2013 7:25:41 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> More...do the winch operations that pull the light line for a retrieve winch have more control for a parachute drop in the case of a weak link break?
>
>
>
> In a perfect world, its never a line break someplace else, but seems like if a chute took off crosswind after a link snapped, there's a little time to have the retrieve end to snag it back.
>
>
>
> BTW. When we train winch drivers we have little contests "flying" the chute down to a specific spot in front of the winch. Some of them get pretty good after ten tries. (Our minimum requirement to operate the the fishing reel solo) Karen

Karen, retrieve winches do not use parachutes. If there is a rope break, each winch will have a portion of the rope to pull in. The retrieve rope attaches to the main rope about 100m in front the glider and the retrieve winch is positioned well to the side of the runway center line so the retrieve rope is never directly under the glider. A good retrieve winch operation has better control of the rope(s) than one using a parachute and no retrieve winch.

IFAIK, there are no retrieve winch operations in the US right now but two sites are close to testing of their new retrieve winch designs. Retrieve winch operations in the UK have claimed a sustained launch rate of one per minute as long as there are gliders in the launch queue. That may work out closer to one every two minutes but that's better than a couple of tow planes can do.

[Frank Whiteley]

Before my time here. We did it again when the steel wire rope caught a tie down and made some sparks. The biggest fires have been set by the railroad.

Frank Whiteley

On Friday, February 1, 2013 9:02:47 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I recall years ago when a soaring club in Colorado, USA dropped the winch
>
> cable across overhead power lines. It started quite a grass fire!
>
>
>
>
>
> "Bryan Poehler" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > At 16:43 29 January 2013, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> >>The St Louis Soaring Association is interested in setting up a winch demo
>
> >
>
> > Kirk,
>
> >
>
> > You probably know this but the BGA has a good web page on winch launching
>
> > safety at:
>
> > http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm
>
> >
>
> > Bryan
>
> >
>
> >

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, February 1, 2013 6:47:24 PM UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:

> How long is your field with the overrun?

Dave, our main runway is 2700' long, with a 500' displaced threshold at the south end and a 1200' field at the north end (that the club owns and could use if desired, with a little work). If you Google maps "Highland-Winet airport" you will see a good aerial shot of our field (including our tow planes and our L-13AC waiting for a tow (the Pawnee has just been refuelled). We have busy roads at both ends but no nearby powerlines - pretty much surrounded by open fields.

So, without any physical changes, we could use 3200' launching to the North by staging in the underrun, or South with the winch in the underrun. If we went to the effort of extending a takeoff runway/winch path to the North, we could add another 1000' or so our available distance.

Most of our glider ops takeoff to the North (towplanes land back to the south if winds are light).

Kirk 66

[Tony V]

On 2/2/2013 11:01 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> So, without any physical changes, we could use 3200' launching to the North by staging in the underrun, or South with the winch in the underrun. If we went to the effort of extending a takeoff runway/winch path to the North, we could add another 1000' or so our available distance.


GBSC Occasionally winches out of 8b5 and have 3500 feet available with
the over run. On light wind days, get get about 1200 altitude - enough
to get out of town on a good day. IMHO, the extra 1000 ft available to
you would be worth it.

http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING/photo_page_7.htm

Tony