I just read the AOPA ePilot Flight Training Edition -- Vol. 4, Issue 4 from

[Roger Bartholomee]

I just read the AOPA ePilot Flight Training Edition -- Vol. 4, Issue 4 from
January and under Training Tips and they reference "The Tiedowns that Bind"
from the October 2000 AOPA Flight Training.

See: http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=3811

The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each line,
especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions. Slack will allow the
airplane to move a little. Without any slack, a strong gust could damage the
airframe." I have always kept mine tight so the plane can't move around.
My feeling is the slack will allow the plane to move and then jerk to a
stop. Does anyone know the proper method and the reason?

Roger @ MD43 C150E

[mikem]

I do as you do. IMHO, it is especially important not to leave any slack
if using chains. Keep 'em tight as possible.

MikeM


Roger Bartholomee wrote:

> I just read the AOPA ePilot Flight Training Edition -- Vol. 4, Issue 4 from
> January and under Training Tips and they reference "The Tiedowns that Bind"
> from the October 2000 AOPA Flight Training.
>
> See: http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=3811
>
> The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each line,
> especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions. Slack will allow the
> airplane to move a little. Without any slack, a strong gust could damage the
> airframe." I have always kept mine tight so the plane can't move around.
> My feeling is the slack will allow the plane to move and then jerk to a
> stop. Does anyone know the proper method and the reason?
>
> Roger @ MD43 C150E
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Bartholomee wrote:
>
> My feeling is the slack will allow the plane to move and then jerk to a
> stop. Does anyone know the proper method and the reason?

I agree with you. Mine are kept about as tight as I can get them.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[BTIZ]

rope "gives" when jerked... chains don't give..

a little slack in chains can cause the wing to jerk when the chain looses
the slack which can damage where the tie down attaches to the wing

ropes give a little, like a bungee hitting the limit..

depending on how the tie down is attached to the wing.. don't trust Cessna
slots that slip into the strut and hide when flying..

BT

"Roger Bartholomee" > wrote in message
...
> I just read the AOPA ePilot Flight Training Edition -- Vol. 4, Issue 4
from
> January and under Training Tips and they reference "The Tiedowns that
Bind"
> from the October 2000 AOPA Flight Training.
>
> See: http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=3811
>
> The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each line,
> especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions. Slack will allow
the
> airplane to move a little. Without any slack, a strong gust could damage
the
> airframe." I have always kept mine tight so the plane can't move around.
> My feeling is the slack will allow the plane to move and then jerk to a
> stop. Does anyone know the proper method and the reason?
>
> Roger @ MD43 C150E
>
>

[Casey Wilson]

"Roger Bartholomee" > wrote in message
...
> I just read the AOPA ePilot Flight Training Edition -- Vol. 4, Issue 4
from
> January and under Training Tips and they reference "The Tiedowns that
Bind"
> from the October 2000 AOPA Flight Training.
>
> See: http://www.aopa.org/members/ftmag/article.cfm?article=3811
>
> The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each line,
> especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions. Slack will allow
the
> airplane to move a little. Without any slack, a strong gust could damage
the
> airframe." I have always kept mine tight so the plane can't move around.
> My feeling is the slack will allow the plane to move and then jerk to a
> stop. Does anyone know the proper method and the reason?

I'm in the camp that says keep the lines tight. Any slack allows
movement, movement is energy, the energy is transmitted into a jerk when the
line comes taut.
Try this: have someone lay on their back, stretch a piece of thread
(ordinary sewing stuff, not upholstery or necklace thread) across the bridge
of their nose pinning it to the floor with your thumbs and ask them to sit
up. Then, allow one inch of slack on either end and have them sit up.

[Peter R.]

BTIZ wrote:

> . don't trust Cessna slots that slip into the strut and hide when flying..

Why? Have there been owners you know who experienced failures of these
types of slots?

--
Peter







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[Chuck]

"Casey Wilson" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> Try this: have someone lay on their back, stretch a piece of thread
> (ordinary sewing stuff, not upholstery or necklace thread) across the
bridge
> of their nose pinning it to the floor with your thumbs and ask them to sit
> up. Then, allow one inch of slack on either end and have them sit up.
>

I tried this with my wife. We couldn't find any thread, so I used kite
string.

We just returned from the emergency room. They said that my eye should open
back up in 3-5 days and the x-rays of her fist showed that it is just
sprained, not broken...

Just wanted to so thanks a helluva lot for your bright idea of an
experiment...


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[BTIZ]

Lets just say I've seen more than one Cessna flipped onto its back when tie
downs failed in high winds.. But Pipers seem to stay upright.

3 of the 5 I recall right now had at least one wing tie down fail, and they
were the type that are spring loaded and slip into the wing strut like the
C-177 type.

It is recommended by many, that when high winds are expected, to bring the
rope up over the strut, around and through the tie down eye, back around the
top of the strut again and the tie the rope with proper "truckers hitch" or
hurricane hitches. Continue the free end down the rope and secure it to
prevent it from flailing against the aircraft.

BT

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> BTIZ wrote:
>
> > . don't trust Cessna slots that slip into the strut and hide when
flying..
>
> Why? Have there been owners you know who experienced failures of these
> types of slots?
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
> http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
Newsgroups
> ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---

[Cub Driver]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:10:23 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>> My feeling is the slack will allow the plane to move and then jerk to a
>> stop. Does anyone know the proper method and the reason?
>
>I agree with you. Mine are kept about as tight as I can get them.

Agreed. I not only take up the slack but haul down on the line to make
sure it's stretched.

It must of course be nylon line. Nylon stretches. I don't know what
the drill ought to be with polypro or chain.

Among other things with slack line, I would worry that the knot might
work loose. (I forget what the knot is called, but I think it depends
on tension to hold it securely.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>> . don't trust Cessna slots that slip into the strut and hide when flying..
>
>Why? Have there been owners you know who experienced failures of these
>types of slots?

The Bush Pilot guy advocates looping the line around the strut itself.
He thinks it so important that as I recall there are a couple or three
photos in the book showing exactly how to do it.

I have a notion that these piccys are on the net somewhere.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> (I forget what the knot is called, but I think it depends
> on tension to hold it securely.)

When I learned it, the fellow that taught it to me called it a "canoe hitch".

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Chuck wrote:
>
> Just wanted to so thanks a helluva lot for your bright idea of an
> experiment...

Don't blame Casey for the fact that you can't follow simple instructions.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Newps]

Peter R. wrote:
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>
>>. don't trust Cessna slots that slip into the strut and hide when flying..
>
>
> Why? Have there been owners you know who experienced failures of these
> types of slots?
>

Yes. If you really want your plane secure you wrap the tie down around
the strut itself.

[A Lieberman]

BTIZ wrote:
>
> Lets just say I've seen more than one Cessna flipped onto its back when tie
> downs failed in high winds.. But Pipers seem to stay upright.

I wondered about this.

I found that taxing a low wing is much easier to handle in high winds
situation. Is it because the CG is lower to the ground?

After all, the weight of the fuel is lower to the ground over the
wheels, thus harder to tip over?

Allen

[Greg Hopp]

>
> We just returned from the emergency room. They said that my eye should open
> back up in 3-5 days and the x-rays of her fist showed that it is just
> sprained, not broken...
>
> Just wanted to so thanks a helluva lot for your bright idea of an
> experiment...


;-) I'll bet he was mean to his brothers too. Getting them to do all
sorts of stupid stuff.

Greg

[Rick Durden]

Allen
> >
> > Lets just say I've seen more than one Cessna flipped onto its back when tie
> > downs failed in high winds.. But Pipers seem to stay upright.
>
> I wondered about this.
>
> I found that taxing a low wing is much easier to handle in high winds
> situation. Is it because the CG is lower to the ground?
>
> After all, the weight of the fuel is lower to the ground over the
> wheels, thus harder to tip over?
>
A little too simplified. Low wing airplanes get blown over in high
winds as do high wing airplanes. Dihedral, direction and force of the
wing, width of the landing gear all play a role.

When taxiing, holding appropriate aileron and elevator deflection
makes a big difference. Doing it wrong on an extremely windy or gusty
day, combined with misue of the brakes which gets the airplane
rocking, can ruin things for you in almost any light airplane.

All the best,
Rick

[Chuck]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Chuck wrote:
> >
> > Just wanted to so thanks a helluva lot for your bright idea of an
> > experiment...
>
> Don't blame Casey for the fact that you can't follow simple instructions.
>


But.. he should have had a disclaimer... :)


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[Morgans]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > (I forget what the knot is called, but I think it depends
> > on tension to hold it securely.)
>
> When I learned it, the fellow that taught it to me called it a "canoe
hitch".
>
> George Patterson
++++++++++++++++++++++
I learned it in scouts, as a taught line hitch.
--
Jim in NC


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[Morgans]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Cub Driver wrote:
> > >
> > > (I forget what the knot is called, but I think it depends
> > > on tension to hold it securely.)
> >
> > When I learned it, the fellow that taught it to me called it a "canoe
> hitch".
> >
> > George Patterson
> ++++++++++++++++++++++
> I learned it in scouts, as a taught line hitch.
> --
> Jim in NC
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Crap It should be "taut" instead of taught. Brain fart from lateness.

--
Jim in NC


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[C J Campbell]

No, don't leave any slack. I can't imagine how the author of the article can
possibly justify this.

As far as using chains, no. Don't ever use them. Carry your own tiedown
ropes if necessary. You can't get chains taut enough. A high wind will cause
the plane to yank on the chain until it runs out of slack and breaks.

I would bet that any Cessna (or any other plane) that has had a tiedown ring
break in a high wind was tied down improperly in the first place.

The plane should be tied down securely whether you expect high winds or not.
You could get an unexpected thunderstorm.

[Dan Luke]

"Roger Bartholomee" wrote:
> The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each
> line, especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions.
> Slack will allow the airplane to move a little. Without any
> slack, a strong gust could damage the airframe."

Utter bulls---.

AOPA should fix this.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Roger Bartholomee]

Plus the wind is less the closerit is to the ground because of friction.

Roger @ MD43 C150E


"Rick Durden" > wrote in message
m...
> Allen
> > >
> > > Lets just say I've seen more than one Cessna flipped onto its back
when tie
> > > downs failed in high winds.. But Pipers seem to stay upright.
> >
> > I wondered about this.
> >
> > I found that taxing a low wing is much easier to handle in high winds
> > situation. Is it because the CG is lower to the ground?
> >
> > After all, the weight of the fuel is lower to the ground over the
> > wheels, thus harder to tip over?
> >
> A little too simplified. Low wing airplanes get blown over in high
> winds as do high wing airplanes. Dihedral, direction and force of the
> wing, width of the landing gear all play a role.
>
> When taxiing, holding appropriate aileron and elevator deflection
> makes a big difference. Doing it wrong on an extremely windy or gusty
> day, combined with misue of the brakes which gets the airplane
> rocking, can ruin things for you in almost any light airplane.
>
> All the best,
> Rick

[Jim Weir]

I agree. Low wings ought to be taxed out of existence.

{;-)


Jim (manly high winger)

that's MANLY, not mainly.
->



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Al Gilson]

Taxes aren't needed. Just send a high-wing out after them

The Ultimate High-Wing = B-52!

- - -

Al Gilson
1964 Skyhawk 3082U


In article >, wrote:

> I agree. Low wings ought to be taxed out of existence.
>
> {;-)
>
>
> Jim (manly high winger)
>
> that's MANLY, not mainly.

--
Al Gilson
Spokane, WA USA
1970 VW Convertible
1964 Cessna Skyhawk

[John Galban]

A Lieberman > wrote in message >...
>
> I found that taxing a low wing is much easier to handle in high winds
> situation. Is it because the CG is lower to the ground?
>
> After all, the weight of the fuel is lower to the ground over the
> wheels, thus harder to tip over?
>

Lower CG is part of it. The weight of not only the fuel, but the
wing spar and internal structure significantly contributes to the
lower CG. The other part is that the gear stance is usually wider on
a low wing, since it is often attached to the wing spar instead of the
fuselage. The triangle formed by the nose, left and right wheel is
wider and less prone to tip to one side or the other.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> A Lieberman > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > I found that taxing a low wing is much easier to handle in high winds
> > situation. Is it because the CG is lower to the ground?
> >
> > After all, the weight of the fuel is lower to the ground over the
> > wheels, thus harder to tip over?
> >
>
> Lower CG is part of it. The weight of not only the fuel, but the
> wing spar and internal structure significantly contributes to the
> lower CG. The other part is that the gear stance is usually wider on
> a low wing, since it is often attached to the wing spar instead of the
> fuselage. The triangle formed by the nose, left and right wheel is
> wider and less prone to tip to one side or the other.

For a low center of gravity, consider the Rockwell JetProp (now Twin
Commander) when the bottom of the fusalage is only nine inches off the
pavement. This can make the body act like an air dam for crosswind taxiing.

[[email protected]]

Although all planes differ, the general answer is... yes.

Lot of factors here, but the wing being lower, helps..center
of gravity is lower, and the main gear stance is wider , not being
confined to mounting on the fuselage.

I remember a landing a Comanche in a X-wind..(no cross rny-
BTW, landings are mandatory) that would have sent our Cessna end over
end.

3rd attempt, right foot in the firewall.. I would have been
plain dumb to try this with a 182..

I have some time on a Warrior, - short, sturdy wide spaced
gear.. Worked well in x-winds, but the rudder on the Comanche seemed
to be more effective in the slip...

Cheers!

Dave



on the On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:51:29 -0800, A Lieberman
> wrote:

>BTIZ wrote:
>>
>> Lets just say I've seen more than one Cessna flipped onto its back when tie
>> downs failed in high winds.. But Pipers seem to stay upright.
>
>I wondered about this.
>
>I found that taxing a low wing is much easier to handle in high winds
>situation. Is it because the CG is lower to the ground?
>
>After all, the weight of the fuel is lower to the ground over the
>wheels, thus harder to tip over?
>
>Allen

[Tom Fleischman]

In article >, Dan Luke
> wrote:

> "Roger Bartholomee" wrote:
> > The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each
> > line, especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions.
> > Slack will allow the airplane to move a little. Without any
> > slack, a strong gust could damage the airframe."
>
> Utter bulls---.
>
> AOPA should fix this.

There is, however, an exception.

In some airplanes, like a Bonanza or Debonair, the CG moves aft as fuel
is burned. If you tie down such an airplane when you return with empty
tanks and make the tail tiedown very tight, then when the FBO comes
along and fills the tanks the CG will move forward putting a lot of
stress on the tail tiedown. This cannot be good for the airframe. And
if someone still happens to be sitting in the back seat while you are
tying the tail down tightly it will make this problem even worse.

I either wait for the fuel truck before tying down or leave a little
slack in the tail tiedown when I tie down the Bo or the Deb with tanks
not full.

[Dave Butler]

Tom Fleischman wrote:
>
> In some airplanes, like a Bonanza or Debonair, the CG moves aft as fuel
> is burned. If you tie down such an airplane when you return with empty
> tanks and make the tail tiedown very tight, then when the FBO comes
> along and fills the tanks the CG will move forward putting a lot of
> stress on the tail tiedown. This cannot be good for the airframe. And
> if someone still happens to be sitting in the back seat while you are
> tying the tail down tightly it will make this problem even worse.
>
> I either wait for the fuel truck before tying down or leave a little
> slack in the tail tiedown when I tie down the Bo or the Deb with tanks
> not full.

That seems a little far-fetched to me. The tanks are what, a few inches ahead of
the CG? and the tail tie-down is what, 6 feet (at least) behind the CG? and the
weight of the added fuel is what, maybe 100 lbs? Doesn't seem like that should
produce "a lot of stress". But then you're there and I'm not, and it's your
airplane.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Fleischman" > wrote in message
rthlink.net...
> In article >, Dan Luke
> > wrote:
>
> > "Roger Bartholomee" wrote:
> > > The author says "It's important to leave a little slack in each
> > > line, especially if you are expecting gusty wind conditions.
> > > Slack will allow the airplane to move a little. Without any
> > > slack, a strong gust could damage the airframe."
> >
> > Utter bulls---.
> >
> > AOPA should fix this.
>
> There is, however, an exception.
>
> In some airplanes, like a Bonanza or Debonair, the CG moves aft as fuel
> is burned.

So what? Even Cessnas do that.

> If you tie down such an airplane when you return with empty
> tanks and make the tail tiedown very tight, then when the FBO comes
> along and fills the tanks the CG will move forward putting a lot of
> stress on the tail tiedown.

Only if the nose is not already resting on its gear. If you are worried
about that, then you sure don't want to see what happens in the maintenance
hangar when they are working on your nose gear.

Pulling on a tail tiedown should not damage it. If it does, the tiedown is
too weak to be useful in a windstorm anyway. The thing that damages tail
tiedowns is smacking them on the runway during poorly executed takeoff and
landing operations. That can strip the threads on the tiedown and buckle the
bulkhead that the tiedown is attached to.