Precless

[Big John]

Reminds me of the time I sent a pair of 'Duces' to drag main streeet
in Panama City during a revolution.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````
From Afghanistan
Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:43 AM

Story of the week;

So we are up in the mountains at about 0100 hrs looking for a bad
guy that we thought was in the area. Here are ten of us, pitch
black, crystal clear night, about 25 degrees. We know there are bad
guys in the area, a few shots have been fired but no big deal. We
decide that we need air cover and the only thing in the area is a
solo B-1 bomber.

He flies around at about 20,000 feet and tells us there is nothing in
the area. He then asks if we would like a low level show of force.

Stupid question. Of course we tell him yes.

The controller who is attached to the team then is heard talking to
the pilot. Pilot asks if we want it subsonic or supersonic.

Very stupid question. Pilot advises he is twenty miles out and stand
by. The controller gets us all sitting down in a line and points out
the
proper location.

You have to picture this. Pitch black, ten killers sitting down,
dead quiet and overlooking about a 30 mile long valley.

All of a sudden, way out (below our level) you see a set of four
200' white flames coming at us. The controller says, "Ah-- guys--
you might want to plug your ears". Faster than you can think a B-1,
supersonic, 1000' over our heads, blasts the sound barrier and it
feels like God just hit you in the head with a hammer". He then stands
it
straight up with 4 white trails of flame coming out and disappears.

Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000

Hearing damage: For certain

Bunch of ragheads thinking twice about shooting at us: Priceless

[BTIZ]

Thanx Big John..

From a retired B-1 driver...

BT

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> Reminds me of the time I sent a pair of 'Duces' to drag main streeet
> in Panama City during a revolution.
>
> Big John
>
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````
```````````````````````````````
> From Afghanistan
> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 9:43 AM
>
> Story of the week;
>
> So we are up in the mountains at about 0100 hrs looking for a bad
> guy that we thought was in the area. Here are ten of us, pitch
> black, crystal clear night, about 25 degrees. We know there are bad
> guys in the area, a few shots have been fired but no big deal. We
> decide that we need air cover and the only thing in the area is a
> solo B-1 bomber.
>
> He flies around at about 20,000 feet and tells us there is nothing in
> the area. He then asks if we would like a low level show of force.
>
> Stupid question. Of course we tell him yes.
>
> The controller who is attached to the team then is heard talking to
> the pilot. Pilot asks if we want it subsonic or supersonic.
>
> Very stupid question. Pilot advises he is twenty miles out and stand
> by. The controller gets us all sitting down in a line and points out
> the
> proper location.
>
> You have to picture this. Pitch black, ten killers sitting down,
> dead quiet and overlooking about a 30 mile long valley.
>
> All of a sudden, way out (below our level) you see a set of four
> 200' white flames coming at us. The controller says, "Ah-- guys--
> you might want to plug your ears". Faster than you can think a B-1,
> supersonic, 1000' over our heads, blasts the sound barrier and it
> feels like God just hit you in the head with a hammer". He then stands
> it
> straight up with 4 white trails of flame coming out and disappears.
>
> Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000
>
> Hearing damage: For certain
>
> Bunch of ragheads thinking twice about shooting at us: Priceless

[Jay Honeck]

> Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000

Awesome!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

> > Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000
>
> Awesome!
> --
> Jay Honeck

Compute the cost.. normal low level operations at about 540Knts runs appx
36,000pph (that's pounds per hour fuel flow for those not used to jet
engines), I used to plan at 38,000pph average to allow slower times and high
speed dashes.

One gallon of JP8 weighs appx 6.5 pounds (rounded), that's 5540 gallons per
hour (rounded), at a buckfifty / gal that's $8,310 per hour (rounded). The
apx 5 minute run, ok, I'll give him 10 minutes on the run, $1385.

But that's at 540Knt or about .88M depending on altitude, rack that up to
Full Afterburner and greater than 1.0M and the fuel flow meter is off the
scale. But rack the pph up to 100,000pph and the math still works out to
less than $4000 for fuel.

Now, add in the cost of crew training, aircraft maintenance and investment
in the airframe. And it does start adding up.

BT

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:09:38 -0600, Big John wrote:

>[story of invaders in foreign country messing around with civilians etc snipped]

>Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000

what about a death toll? maybe they hit 5 families? collateral damage? for
sure ...

>Hearing damage: For certain

*big applaus* - oh how proud one must be of people showing off different
methods of killing people. do you want me to kill them subsonic or
supersonic?

>Bunch of ragheads thinking twice about shooting at us: Priceless

you forgot:
demonstration of american reckless behaviour in foreign countries: as usual

#m

--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:09:38 -0600, Big John wrote:
>
> >[story of invaders in foreign country messing around with civilians etc
> >snipped]

"messing around with civilians"? get a grip on reality. Perhaps
you'd like to go back and read the post.

>
> >Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000
>
> what about a death toll? maybe they hit 5 families? collateral damage?
> for
> sure ...

from a high speed pass?


>
> >Hearing damage: For certain
>
> *big applaus* - oh how proud one must be of people showing off different
> methods of killing people. do you want me to kill them subsonic or
> supersonic?

yeah, a supersonics pass will kill so many.



> >Bunch of ragheads thinking twice about shooting at us: Priceless
>
> you forgot:
> demonstration of american reckless behaviour in foreign countries: as
> usual

perhaps, but it didn't take long for the anti-americans to demonstrate
their hatred.

--
Bob Noel

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:31:39 GMT, Bob Noel wrote:

>> demonstration of american reckless behaviour in foreign countries: as
>> usual
>
>perhaps, but it didn't take long for the anti-americans to demonstrate
>their hatred.

I am not anti-american per-se

I don't 'hate' all americans just for their being american (americans have
a similar choice for being americn as I have for being european) - this
would be crazy and very shortminded.

it is the recless behaviour outside america from those in command (I really
don't care [well - from a human rights standpoint I do care] what you do
within your border).

#m

--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[John T]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message

>
> perhaps, but it didn't take long for the anti-americans to demonstrate
> their hatred.

Google for "martin hotze" and you'll see that he has quite a history of
anti-American posts. Why bother feeding his trolling posts?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Bob Fry]

Martin and all,

The fellow that wrote the below email worked for me for several years,
then got another job that involved a lot of traveling. As you can
see, he was near the WTC on 9/11. So I, a California native and
resident, personally know someone greatly affected by 9/11.

Another acquaintance from my small town, a baker, was compelled to
bake some goodies, fly back to NYC during the cleanup, and hand them
out to the workers, all at his own expense.

Probably most Americans have similar stories. I remember seeing the
pictures and videos of people jumping from the towers, and thinking to
myself, this could have been me: one moment, you're starting work, cup
of coffee in hand, yakking with your work buddies--an hour later
you're deciding that suicide by jumping is preferable to being burned
alive. Did you talk it over with those same work buddies---how many
were still alive? Did you have a chance to call your spouse, say
goodbye to anyone you love?

I also remember news pictures and stories of Palestinians laughing and
celebrating, of OBL snickering and smiling at his handiwork. So cut
us some slack if we enjoy an occasional moment ourselves. That
doesn't make any of it right. It just makes us human, after all.

Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 7:17 AM
To: Jill
Subject: Hi


Hi Jill,
Its been a long time since I heard from you. How are you doing?

Things have been very depressing since Sept. 11. I was in NYC on the
day of the attack. I was actually walking past tower 2 crossing over
towards liberty plaza when the first plane hit. It was so surreal that
I still don't believe it actually happened. I don't think I ever felt
as panicky as I did that day. As I was walking away from the building,
debris was coming down along with papers. One of the papers was some
firm's confidential documents and then is when it struck me. There
were people up there in the buildings. It just squeezed my heart right
there. Thankfully I was able to get away without any injuries. It was
a long wait to get the ferry out to NJ and then the Greyhound back to
********. I don't think I have ever wanted to come home so bad.

Anyway, this week I am in *******. I really like this place. Next
week I am headed for NYC again. I haven't felt like a movie in weeks,
but I do now. Did you see any interesting movies this summer? Fall is
just around the corner and I just love that slight tinge of summer
that hangs in the air. Say hi to my friends. More later -- ******

[john smith]

Martin Hotze wrote:
> I am not anti-American per-se
> I don't 'hate' all Americans just for their being American (Americans have
> a similar choice for being American as I have for being european) - this
> would be crazy and very shortminded.
> It is the reckless behaviour outside America from those in command (I really
> don't care [well - from a human rights standpoint I do care] what you do
> within your border).

Well, if it weren't for the messes the Europeans create, we wouldn't be
where we are.
And if it wasn't for the Americans, the world wouldn't be as well off as
it is today.

[BTIZ]

you forget.. now weapons were dropped on the run described

BT

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:09:38 -0600, Big John wrote:
>
> >[story of invaders in foreign country messing around with civilians etc
snipped]
>
> >Cost of gas for that: Probably $50,000
>
> what about a death toll? maybe they hit 5 families? collateral damage? for
> sure ...
>
> >Hearing damage: For certain
>
> *big applaus* - oh how proud one must be of people showing off different
> methods of killing people. do you want me to kill them subsonic or
> supersonic?
>
> >Bunch of ragheads thinking twice about shooting at us: Priceless
>
> you forgot:
> demonstration of american reckless behaviour in foreign countries: as
usual
>
> #m
>
> --
> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Big John]

First, my apologies for misspelling "Priceless". Late at night with
'puddle' fingers and not running spell checker :o( Thank all for not
commenting <G>

Some comments on the low altitude high speed pass.

1. Just like the groups that go to Air Shows to see aircraft on the
ground and in the air, AF ground support troops and Army troops who
benefit from CAS like to see the equipment flying close up. A high
speed pass at low altitude is and has been a method of showing off for
those individuals. A supersonic low altitude pass is an EVENT.

2. For the aircrew, orbiting for hours waiting for a call to action is
very boring and a pass breaks the monotony of the waiting mission.
Also most pilots (even GA) like to show off their 'equipment' .
Oshkosh, photo's on Internet, Sun-an-fun, etc. For the B-1, its the
only flying supersonic bomber.

3. For those who are not familiar with supersonic flight.

a. At high subsonic and supersonic speed you don't hear the
aircraft coming.

b. The shock wave does not hit the ground until the aircraft
has PASSED the point where you are standing.

4. Any 'bad guys' in the vicinity would be awakened the same as if a
500 lb'er were dropped next door. Any structures under the flight path
would/could suffer damage (good deal in Indian country)

5. All in all, low altitude high speeds passes at night might be a
good way to harass the enemy :o)

6. Just remember VN. We're in this War to win.

Big John

For you Michael

Don't want to get into the European 'mind set'. So many of you have
forgotten the blood and money we spent so you can sit at your sidewalk
table and drink Schnapps and beer and Monday morning quarterback the
game.

Who are you going to call on when they drive a car bomb up next to you
and set it off?

Americans can take valid criticism but to belittle us hits a deeper
nerve. Don't poke the bear, as we say. here in Texas.

BJ

[Martin Hotze]

On 22 Feb 2004 08:48:28 -0800, Bob Fry wrote:

>see, he was near the WTC on 9/11. So I, a California native and
>resident, personally know someone greatly affected by 9/11.

there sure are many americans (and non americans alike) affected by this
tragic event.

>Another acquaintance from my small town, a baker, was compelled to
>bake some goodies, fly back to NYC during the cleanup, and hand them
>out to the workers, all at his own expense.

yes, I read about similar stories during that time - short after 9/11.

>Probably most Americans have similar stories. I remember seeing the
>pictures and videos of people jumping from the towers, and thinking to
>myself, this could have been me: one moment, you're starting work, cup
>of coffee in hand, yakking with your work buddies--an hour later
>you're deciding that suicide by jumping is preferable to being burned
>alive.

I've seen it, too. (Only - or better: I am glad that it was *only* and not
direct in NY) live on TV.

>I also remember news pictures and stories of Palestinians laughing and
>celebrating,

this event you are referring to was pointed out of being setup for
television. But for sure there have been many happy about the 9/11 attacks.
There is _no_ excuse for anybody being happy about the forceful death of
somebody else.

> of OBL snickering and smiling at his handiwork. So cut
>us some slack if we enjoy an occasional moment ourselves. That
>doesn't make any of it right. It just makes us human, after all.

OK - seing it in the whole context makes it at least understandable - as
you put it: human.

regards, #m

--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:04:05 -0800, BTIZ wrote:

>you forget.. now weapons were dropped on the run described

OK, I got it in the wrong context with the supersonic flight and I excuse
for pointing out a death toll.

but the rest remains as is.

#m

--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:21:20 -0600, Big John wrote:

>Don't want to get into the European 'mind set'. So many of you have
>forgotten the blood and money we spent

how long will you bring this into account? I was born 30 years after the
war (WWII) *ended*. As I wrote before: you (the allies) did a great job and
I am thankful. But it is too long ago to still pay for it.
I say thank you - nothing more, but nothing less.

>BJ

martin

--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Jay Honeck]

> 6. Just remember VN. We're in this War to win.

This is a lesson that must not be forgotten.

Too many young people don't seem to understand that war must be waged
completely and decisively. Viet Nam taught us that pussy-footing around in
a war gets MORE people killed, not less.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:21:20 -0600, Big John wrote:
>
> >Don't want to get into the European 'mind set'. So many of you have
> >forgotten the blood and money we spent
>
> how long will you bring this into account? I was born 30 years after the
> war (WWII) *ended*. As I wrote before: you (the allies) did a great job
and
> I am thankful. But it is too long ago to still pay for it.
> I say thank you - nothing more, but nothing less.

the problem Martin... is that many of your age don't appreciate what our
fathers and grandfathers did in Europe and in the South Pacific.. and we
hear the same rhetoric all the time.

BT

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> "Bob Noel" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > perhaps, but it didn't take long for the anti-americans to demonstrate
> > their hatred.
>
> Google for "martin hotze" and you'll see that he has quite a history of
> anti-American posts. Why bother feeding his trolling posts?
>

Especially clueless trolls.

Rule #1 of parenting: All tantrums must be ignored, whether the subject of
said tantrum is three or fifty-three.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Big John" > wrote in message
...
> First, my apologies for misspelling "Priceless". Late at night with
> 'puddle' fingers and not running spell checker :o( Thank all for not
> commenting <G>
>

I thought it had something to do with before a "cless".

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:RY7_b.382094$na.572125@attbi_s04...
> > 6. Just remember VN. We're in this War to win.
>
> This is a lesson that must not be forgotten.
>
> Too many young people don't seem to understand that war must be waged
> completely and decisively. Viet Nam taught us that pussy-footing around
in
> a war gets MORE people killed, not less.

If Korea didn't teach that lesson, and Vietnam and all the lessons since
didn't teach it, why should this instance?

"It is fatal to enter into any war without the will to win it" -- General of
the Army Douglas MacArthur, July 7, 1952; Address to the Republican National
Convention

[Tom Sixkiller]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:fu8_b.29976$tM5.20540@fed1read04...
>
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
> the problem Martin... is that many of your age don't appreciate what our
> fathers and grandfathers did in Europe and in the South Pacific.. and we
> hear the same rhetoric all the time.

http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/000185.html

[Big John]

Martin

When those of use who participated in WWII are dead and gone, you can
rewrite history if you desire. In the mean time, a bit of humility
might be in order.

Your posts write down on all on this news group and at the young age
of 29, you are just starting on lifes path with lots of years to learn
and things to experience.

You certainily don't have the width and depth to be the guru on
piloting on GA or Heavy Iron.

Out political system which you take umbrage with, is our system. It
works for us and must be good, with all who try to come here from
countries around the world.

And a good day to thee Sir.


Big John
Pilot, RNAF


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:39:10 GMT, Martin Hotze >
wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:21:20 -0600, Big John wrote:
>
>>Don't want to get into the European 'mind set'. So many of you have
>>forgotten the blood and money we spent
>
>how long will you bring this into account? I was born 30 years after the
>war (WWII) *ended*. As I wrote before: you (the allies) did a great job and
>I am thankful. But it is too long ago to still pay for it.
>I say thank you - nothing more, but nothing less.
>
>>BJ
>
>martin

[Jay Honeck]

> that is rather easy to explain: we even don't really look back into not so
long
> ago history. I bet that Germany are already tired of talking about the
time
> during the cold war with the Berlin wall and the separation of east and
west.
> And this only happened a couple of years ago. So even less think of WWII.
It was
> a (tragic) event in history. But here, everybody moves on.

Sadly, that's true here as well. Ask any high school student about World
War II, and many won't know the Allies from the Axis. :-(

> when you sit together with folks my age and really have the time and
discuss
> this topic (WWII) then they sure appreciate the efforts made by the
allies.

That's good to know. There are several generations of kids not born here
(and all over the world) because of Mr. Hitler, Mr. Hirohito, and Mr.
Mussolini.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Rhodes]

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:11:20 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>Martin Hotze wrote:
>> I am not anti-American per-se
>> I don't 'hate' all Americans just for their being American (Americans have
>> a similar choice for being American as I have for being european) - this
>> would be crazy and very shortminded.
>> It is the reckless behaviour outside America from those in command (I really
>> don't care [well - from a human rights standpoint I do care] what you do
>> within your border).
>
>Well, if it weren't for the messes the Europeans create, we wouldn't be
>where we are.
>And if it wasn't for the Americans, the world wouldn't be as well off as
>it is today.

America saves the world? Parts of the world would be better off, if
they weren't so well-knit together. And we would be better off if we
didn't presume their interests to be ours.

Please make that B-1 recon flight closer to home. Like right on our
southern border, and I'll thank you. It is my right to complain that
they don't. But the Greater World Trade Center still has the power to
refuse me, and give (no, take) my border as if it were a gift. This
for their Greater World Interests. So my pity, my anger, is not with
you. Your tresspass is a serious one.
I cannot see how giving my border could be thought a genuine gift
to the world! What government in their right mind would want it?
What right does anyone have to force it? The power is what they have,
for a 'unified world,' as they see it. I do not see it that way. The
majority of this country, though full of immigrants, does want its
borders controlled. We have natural resource concerns, and cultural
concerns, so we are betrayed. I am astonished.

I've lived in Abilene, Tx; & seen those B-1 torches as they took off
from Dyess. But my home was closer to Regional, which they would
occasionally use for t&gs, or low passes. Sitting on the port (or
inside the house) from several miles away I could hear that incredible
roar as they occasionally took off from there. I think it was the
B-1. I never actually saw one actually take off, and saw only one low
pass. (I'm still not yet a pilot.) But I don't think anything else
could make that sound.

Mike

[Verbs Under My Gel]

Martin Hotze > wrote in message >...
> what about a death troll?

I fixed your post for you.

[BTIZ]

"those that fail to study history.. are destined to repeat it.."

--author unknown.. but I think it was G.Patton
BT

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> Big John > wrote:
>
> > Martin
> >
> > When those of use who participated in WWII are dead and gone, you can
> > rewrite history if you desire.
>
>
> I don't want to rewrite it ... well, maybe it would be good to wipe out
some
> parts of history ...
>
> > In the mean time, a bit of humility
> > might be in order.
>
>
> what else should I say than appreciate the efforts and say thank you?
Payment?
> There was - IMHO - enough payment for reparation.
>
> > Your posts write down on all on this news group and at the young age
> > of 29,
>
> 29?
>
> > you are just starting on lifes path with lots of years to learn
> > and things to experience.
> >
> > You certainily don't have the width and depth to be the guru on
> > piloting on GA or Heavy Iron.
> >
>
> I never claimed that for me.
>
> > Out political system which you take umbrage with, is our system.
>
> and you want to imply it everywhere else - or: it takes effect or has its
> effects also outside of your country.
>
> > It
> > works for us and must be good, with all who try to come here from
> > countries around the world.
>
> it is not the worst of all systems. :-)
>
> #m
> --
> http://www.MoveOn.org/

[John T]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:lsA_b.6232$aZ3.3419@fed1read04
>
> "those that fail to study history.. are destined to repeat it.."
>
> --author unknown.. but I think it was G.Patton

George Sanatayana.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Tom Sixkiller]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:lsA_b.6232$aZ3.3419@fed1read04...
> "those that fail to study history.. are destined to repeat it.."
>
> --author unknown.. but I think it was G.Patton

The quote is: Those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it"
and it was George Santayana (1863-1952)