Is a 45 year old student pilot considered 'youth'?

[son_of_flubber]

What are the issues that keep soaring from training and retaining 'older youth'?

There's a lot of talk about recruiting 'youth' into soaring. Does RAS/SSA put 45+ y.o. students in the youth category? Who exactly are we trying to recruit?

Today's 45+ y.o.s are the ones who will be flying steadily for the next 25 years, say until 2038. Most of today's 20 year old pilots will quit flying by 30 (if not 25) due to money and the distractions of career, mortgage, and family. Some of them will start to fly again around 2038, when I'm worn out.

The issues:

1)Older youth are slower learners, so it is hard for a middle age pilot to get enough training and progress at an acceptable pace in the current system. It took me way too many seasons to get my rating. I saw a lot of other middle age students get discouraged and give up. Combination of bad weather, shortage of CFI-Gs, haphazard training, and my slow learning. It's highly improbable that I would persist to this point.

2)This is related to #1. The slow learning of older students puts a burden on volunteer CFI-Gs. The CFI-G gets tired of teaching that slower learner, the student picks up on that subliminally and quits. It is just taking too long and that CFI-G is understandably cranky about it. Worse case, the CFIG pushes the student to take the flight test before the student is really ready (and they pass). Getting the rating does not make you a good and safe pilot.

3)The shortage of modern club gliders. Okay. So I have my rating. Now how do I get my Silver Badge? Fortunate for me, I found a club that has a PW-6 and I can do some XC tandem flights with some expert older XC pilots, and being advanced in years, they like to have a backup pilot in the cockpit. It's fun. WIN WIN. And I have a decent glider to solo. The appeal of doing XC training in a 2-33 is absolute ZERO. Too uncomfortable. No 2-place modern club gliders? Time to quit and take up sailing.

Action Items:

1)Shorten the duration of the training period for middle age students. Train smarter. Be more systematic. Based on my student experience, glider training is haphazard. The reluctance of CFI-G to exploit Condor to speed up the initial phase of training baffles me. Old dogs, new trick maybe. I guess Condor is not so much fun for the CFI-G. So let's train CFI-Gs to use Condor as a tool. You can start to train on Condor in January and students will have a leg up once the snow melts.

2)Invest in more 2-place modern gliders. Most glider pilots have capital (or they would have taken up bird watching instead). If half of them would sign $2-3000 promissory notes, we could update the training fleet tomorrow. I mean... what do you earn on your CDs? .2%? My glider club pays me 3% on the promissory note that I signed and that helps finance our new glider, AND I get to fly a nice new glider! Huge ROI. Stop flapping the jaws and step up gentlemen! Clubs did this back in the day and bought the 2-33 fleet. Inflation adjusted, it is the same money. Why are the purse strings held tighter today? New Butterfly Vario or Promissory Note? Your choice.

Bonus Step:
Start launching with a winch. That will pull in, train and retain the 'young Youth' pilots. It will probably shorten the calendar duration of everyone's training because more flights will get launched on Saturday afternoon.

[[email protected]]

Hooray - at 44 I am suddenly back in the Youth category!

Maybe I can someday get to 55 and be a respected Senior instead of a sought after Youth in this sport :-)

Spring can not come soon enough for all of us...

EY

[Sean F (F2)]

In the US Soaring SSA years (dog years) this 44 year old pilot is about 16.

;-)!

[Luke Szczepaniak]

On 02/22/2013 3:36 PM, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> In the US Soaring SSA years (dog years) this 44 year old pilot is about 16.
>
> ;-)!
>


Sean - you give yourself way too much credit, I'd give you at most 13...

Aaaar ;)

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 2:11:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hooray - at 44 I am suddenly back in the Youth category!

One of the main problems with getting older, is that it gets harder and harder to find playmates.

When I first got involved in soaring I was delighted to find that I had suddenly become "the young guy" in the group and that I had found a sporting community that I could participate in until my mind started to fail. At that point, and only at that point, I will take up golf... well maybe not. I don't look good in plaid.

[Tony[_5_]]

As the new SSA Youth Committee Chairman i feel i can comment on this with authority.

No you are not considered Youth, even if you act like you are under 26. Sorry.

That said you are absolutely right based on most of my observations at the airport/gliderport, mid 40's is a very popular age to get into or back into aviation.

[Sean F (F2)]

Arrrrrrrhg!

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/howto.html

http://youtu.be/yC_PR7YWQOc

[Peter von Tresckow]

"Sean F (F2)" > wrote:
> In the US Soaring SSA years (dog years) this 44 year old pilot is about 16.
>
> ;-)!

Sweet then as a 37year old can I apply for a Kolstad scholarship???

Pete (usually the youngest at a soaring event if Tony C isn't around)

[Tony[_5_]]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:25:53 PM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
> "Sean F (F2)" > wrote: > In the US Soaring SSA years (dog years) this 44 year old pilot is about 16. > > ;-)! Sweet then as a 37year old can I apply for a Kolstad scholarship??? Pete (usually the youngest at a soaring event if Tony C isn't around)

you can apply all you want :)

actually reminds me of when our local then teenager John Bird submitted for his 100km Kolstad pin and the SSA office figured it was a joke since the 'other' John Bird who had been on the US team was *ahem* well over 26. A few phone calls and it was discovered that there was more than one John Bird in the SSA!

[Ramy]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 1:15:03 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> As the new SSA Youth Committee Chairman i feel i can comment on this with authority.
>
>
>
> No you are not considered Youth, even if you act like you are under 26. Sorry.
>
>
>
> That said you are absolutely right based on most of my observations at the airport/gliderport, mid 40's is a very popular age to get into or back into aviation.

I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. We simply can't compete against hang gliding and paragliding for the young crowd.

Ramy

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

> I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. <

Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.

Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. <
>
>
>
> Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.
>
>
>
> Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.

yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.

[Tony V]

On 2/22/2013 4:08 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> xxxxAt that point, and only at that point, I will take up golf... well maybe not. I don't look good in plaid.

Nobody does. :-)

Tony "6N"

[Ramy]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:34:59 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
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> >
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> > > I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. <
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> > Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.
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> > Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.
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> yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.

I wonder why people wait so long. I switched from hang gliding to sailplanes about the same time I bought my first house and my child was born...
At the rate I am refinancing to pay for my gliders I will never payoff my house.
I guess I am not a good example :-)

Ramy

[Tony[_5_]]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:48:27 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:34:59 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
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> > > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
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> > yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.
>
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> I wonder why people wait so long. I switched from hang gliding to sailplanes about the same time I bought my first house and my child was born...
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> At the rate I am refinancing to pay for my gliders I will never payoff my house.
>
> I guess I am not a good example :-)
>
>
>
> Ramy

i wouldn't say that Ramy. I'm trying to do my best to get enough equity in my house so I can buy a Quintus :)

[Ramy]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 9:06:43 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:48:27 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:34:59 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
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> > > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
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> > > > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
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> > > yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.
>
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> > I wonder why people wait so long. I switched from hang gliding to sailplanes about the same time I bought my first house and my child was born...
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> > At the rate I am refinancing to pay for my gliders I will never payoff my house.
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> > I guess I am not a good example :-)
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> i wouldn't say that Ramy. I'm trying to do my best to get enough equity in my house so I can buy a Quintus :)

Might be easier to get enough equity on a Quintus to buy a house...

[GM]

>> Bonus Step: Start launching with a winch. That will pull in, train and retain the 'young Youth' pilots. It will probably shorten the calendar duration of everyone's training because more flights will get launched on Saturday afternoon. <<

WOW - you figured that one out all by yourself or did you cheat and look at what is going on across the pond?? ;-)
A small group in the US - commonly referred to as the winch-heads - has been preaching that for years by now and we are slowly seeing results. A number of new winch operations have started up across the US using rebuilt Gehrlein-type winches and there is at least one exciting new home-built winch concept in the making. Our operation is doing a fair amount of pre-solo trainig on the winch and the kids love it! Cheaper and much more of a wow-factor than aero-towing: super-car acceleration, climb rates which top that of the best brand C, M or P power plane, climb angles of 40deg+, etc. to name a few.

Uli

[Terry Pitts]

>
> WOW - you figured that one out all by yourself or did you cheat and look at what is going on across the pond?? ;-)

I flew 2011 and 2012 with a German club at a field that support six resident glider clubs. On any given day I was there the number of youths pretty much matched the number of older members. I flew a half dozen weekends in England, too.

More than one of the older members explained the pattern of "license while in school > job/wife/kids/house > back to flying as a 40-year-old" to me.

The teenagers were soloing in an ASK-21, getting their first single-seat experience in an ASK-18, moving onto an LS1 or LS4, then a Discus - all before even getting a license. A winch launch in this club is $6 if you have a license, $5 of you don't. The ASK-21 is $18/hr, billed by the minute; the ASK-18 and LS1/4 slightly less.

Everyone can get three or four short lessons (one or two longer ones if thermals) for less than the price of a single aero tow!

It's quite typical in a German club that the student pilot's first aero tow takes place just before the check ride, doing enough that both winch and aero tow show up on the newly printed license.

A very large fraction of the students who solo will eventually get a license and eventually let life's realities get in the way of flying. Most of them will come back.

No one in Europe thinks of the ASK-21 as an "advanced trainer" that can only be flown after mastering an SGS 2-33. There are 14-year-olds in Europe soloing -21's, flying over the Autobahn that they won't be able to drive on for three more years!

I have to agree with Uli about the excitement of the winch. My log book shows about 270 flights. The private- commercial- (both in the US) and aerobatic training is all aero tow, but virtually all of the rest is via winch launch. All of my longest flights to-date were winch launches.

I don't know what all the answers are. Membership in German clubs is slowly declining as more and more competition for time arrises. It's hard for people to get to the glider field at 10:00 and stay to 5:00 every day they want to fly; there's no reserving a time and just showing up for that.

The Brits have great success doing things similarly to the Germans. The ASK-13 (nicely spin-able) and the ASK-21 are generally the trainer(s) of choice there, too. The Brits have a very popular Air Cadet program somewhat analogous to the Cadet Program of the US Civil Air Patrol.

Soaring in the US seems to be about as expensive per flight as powered flying. I've paid "minimum per flight charges" for five minutes in a 2-33 that were higher than an hour in "a real glider" elsewhere. My local FBO charges $110/hour for an older, IFR C-172. How does that compare to $75/hr for a 2-33 plus a tow?

My suggestions:

Prices down, recruiting up, a/c utilization up, publicity up

This won't work everywhere, but what if we encouraged FBOs to refer would-be pilots who are too young to have much money to join the CAP and learn to fly through the glider program. CAP benefits. The new glider pilot benefits.. Ultimately even the FBO benefits as the glider pilot considers adding on powered flight. It's not for everyone, but it is a relatively inexpensive way to fly gliders.

Long ramble - hope it's of some value!

Terry

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 1:15:03 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote: > As the new SSA Youth Committee Chairman i feel i can comment on this with authority. > > > > No you are not considered Youth, even if you act like you are under 26. Sorry. > > > > That said you are absolutely right based on most of my observations at the airport/gliderport, mid 40's is a very popular age to get into or back into aviation. I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. We simply can't compete against hang gliding and paragliding for the young crowd. Ramy

The focus should not be on age, but enthusiasm. That comes from people of all ages. The ones that have it, and are nurtured, will be around a long time. The others will simply go do something else.
Best "target" is lapsed pilot with teen aged kid who is interested in flying. We see this a lot.
UH

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:40:53 AM UTC-5, Terry Pitts wrote:

> I flew 2011 and 2012 with a German club at a field that support six resident glider clubs.

By contrast in the USA, when the 2-33s finally wear out, soaring may follow the "yachting club" model. Very small, exclusive, and expensive.

[GM]

>> ...when the 2-33s finally wear out... <<
What do you mean? They are not already ...???

[[email protected]]

"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my local commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50 and instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about a 15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider rental and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of flying. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many folks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem hindering the growth and sustainability of this sport.

[Sean F (F2)]

A clue: http://youtu.be/MeHoOViUQXc

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 12:53:15 -0800, Sean F (F2) wrote:

> A clue: http://youtu.be/MeHoOViUQXc

IMO thats a terrible video for promoting its sport - more talking heads
than action and what action there is was so fragmented and distant that I
couldn't get any feel for what the sport might be like to take part in.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Sean F (F2)]

Martin,

If you followed the series on the youth americas cup, as millions of young sailors do, you would notice that several videos are released each week and have been for months. Some with more action, others with more interview. The point is that this is a major piece of the America's Cup event and its marketing. Soaring could be marketed so much better. Could we agree on that?

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 12:37:55 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> "Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my local commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50 and instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about a 15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider rental and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of flying. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many folks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem hindering the growth and sustainability of this sport.<

Commercial operations obviously bring a lot of value to the sport, but that is a one-sided view. I know personally of four clubs in the USA that offer much more affordable soaring. In each case there is significant philanthropy, a few big gifts and many smaller ones, and considerable volunteer contributions of time. It adds up over the years and as a relative newcomer to the sport I have been the beneficiary. (Thanks BTW!) All of these clubs have a pretty good (albeit aging) fleet of gliders as well. Three of the airports have subsidized programs for youngsters. These are not exclusive 'yacht clubs'.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:40:18 -0800, Sean F (F2) wrote:

> Martin,
>
> If you followed the series on the youth americas cup, as millions of
> young sailors do, you would notice that several videos are released each
> week and have been for months. Some with more action, others with more
> interview. The point is that this is a major piece of the America's Cup
> event and its marketing. Soaring could be marketed so much better.
> Could we agree on that?
>
Sure, more exposure outside the soaring fraternity would be good. I
thought you were putting that video up as a good example of the sort of
thing we should be aiming for. My reaction to it is that if I was a
member on good standing of the small boat racing fraternity I'd think it
was great, but OTOH its not good for pulling outsiders in because it
fails to show why its talking heads love sailboat racing. In fact I think
you're agreeing with me: you say that "millions of young sailors" follow
it which shows that its primary audience are already hooked rather than
the non-sailors who might be attracted into the sport. As such its not
even attempting to do the same job as the SAA youtube channel or Lets Go
Gliding have been set up to do.

BTW, I wonder if the growing numbers of FPV RC flyers might be a useful
target audience. FPV is initial slang for "First Person View", the idea
being that you fit a video camera and downlink to an RC model and then
fly it by peering into a screen. IOW its a halfway house between the
simulator flyers and us. Please also bear in mind that the majority of
present day RC flyers are not traditional aeromodellers. Most don't
design or build their models: they buy them assembled, painted and almost
ready to fly.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Sean F (F2)]

Try this one!

http://youtu.be/EQw5AjrBjXE

The USA desperately needs more youth pilots. I am starting to work on this a bit and plan on putting some real effort in for the coming years.

Sean

[Bob Cook[_2_]]

I agree that "learning" to fly gliders is quite expensive. I try to assure
my students that there is "light at the end of the tunnel."

As you get better at the sport, the price goes way down.

Clubs are typically in the $500 to $1000 per year cost range.

The cost of ownership (individual or with partner) of a modest glider is
not much more that that......(I'm leaving out the cost of the glider itself
figuring the glider can most likely be sold at any time for your purchase
price)

You soon learn to "choose your days" ... don't fly on days that are going
to be sleigh rides...

Once you learn to find thermals during tow, you can usually release at
2000' or less, saving $10 or more per tow. (Clubs typically offer tows for
about 1/2 the price of commercial operators, but clubs with tow planes
typically have higher dues..it is a wash....unless if you fly a lot, then a
towing club is a big cost advantage.

Once you start mastering thermalling, and then x country...flights of 3
hours become "normal" and many flights will be 6 or even 8 hours. Flying at
a ridge location, you can literally fly all day long if you so desire.
(Obviously the longer the flight, the lower the cost per hour.)

Now if you fly say, every other week.... you can do the math and find that
the cost drops to under $50 per hour...probably more like $25.

Suddenly, gliding becomes cheaper than Golf, or Skiing, or drinking at the
bar, etc!

I've had years where gliding cost me around to $10 per hour!!!

Cookie





At 17:37 23 February 2013, wrote:
>"Small, exclusive and expensive"...I think we are already there. At my
>loca=
>l commercial operation, a 3,000 ft tow is $60, one hour in a L23 is $50
>and=
> instruction is $50 per hour. If you end up with no lift, you have about
a
>=
>15-16 minute sled ride. Figure in the minimum charges for the glider
>rental=
> and the CFIG and you are north of $100 for essentially 15 minutes of
>flyin=
>g. That is entertainment to the tune of $400 per hour. I don't know many
>fo=
>lks that have that kind of entertainment budget. THAT is one problem
>hinder=
>ing the growth and sustainability of this sport.
>

[[email protected]]

Superb!

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 6:40:52 PM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Try this one!
>
>
>
> http://youtu.be/EQw5AjrBjXE
>
>
>
> The USA desperately needs more youth pilots. I am starting to work on this a bit and plan on putting some real effort in for the coming years.
>
>
>
> Sean

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:40:52 -0800, Sean F (F2) wrote:

> Try this one!
>
> http://youtu.be/EQw5AjrBjXE
>
Good stuff!

> The USA desperately needs more youth pilots. I am starting to work on
> this a bit and plan on putting some real effort in for the coming years.
>
I'd also suggest:

- the taster for the NZ GGP,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBLAyAfM8yE

- Down at the Seaside!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs666zqMw0s

- Winch launching at Karl Striedieck's Eagle Field
https://vimeo.com/51897500 - if there's also a YT version

- and the 'Smokin' video, which was made by some of the British Juniors
as (I think) a fund-raiser for the team. I think it was a DVD, but
there's a taster here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZoLMDZ0cg
FWIW, the "2003 Gransden Regionals" section was shot on my club's field.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tony V]

On 2/23/2013 12:49 AM, GM wrote:
> .. [winch] ...climb angles of 40deg+, .......

I used to say that too... and then I did the math. It's only your *deck
angle*, with respect to the horizon that is 40+ degrees. Assuming that
your launch height is about 1/3 of your cable length, that comes out to
an average climb angle of about 19 degrees, unfortunately.

Tony

[Bill D]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:57:46 PM UTC-7, Tony V wrote:
> On 2/23/2013 12:49 AM, GM wrote:
>
> > .. [winch] ...climb angles of 40deg+, .......
>
>
>
> I used to say that too... and then I did the math. It's only your *deck
>
> angle*, with respect to the horizon that is 40+ degrees. Assuming that
>
> your launch height is about 1/3 of your cable length, that comes out to
>
> an average climb angle of about 19 degrees, unfortunately.
>
>
>
> Tony

Tony, I assure you GM has done the math and his numbers are correct. With a rope tension equal to the glider's weight, the max climb angle will be 45 degrees - that's just how the math works out.

Old winches launching sub-30:1 gliders don't get this performance but the powerful new winches launching higher performance gliders do.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2013 02:42:25 +0000, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> - and the 'Smokin' video, which was made by some of the British Juniors
> as (I think) a fund-raiser for the team. I think it was a DVD, but
> there's a taster here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoZoLMDZ0cg
> FWIW, the "2003 Gransden Regionals" section was shot on my club's
> field.
>
Following ones self up is bad form, I know, but I've been thinking slowly
today. Not only was part of Smokin' shot on my club's field, but I was
flying in that Regionals: two of us made a team entry in the club's Pegase
90. It was also our first go at racing and you can find my description of
the experience here:

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/2003_regionals/index.html


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 7:39:56 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> What are the issues that keep soaring from training and retaining 'older youth'?
>
>
>
> There's a lot of talk about recruiting 'youth' into soaring. Does RAS/SSA put 45+ y.o. students in the youth category? Who exactly are we trying to recruit?
>
>
>
> Today's 45+ y.o.s are the ones who will be flying steadily for the next 25 years, say until 2038. Most of today's 20 year old pilots will quit flying by 30 (if not 25) due to money and the distractions of career, mortgage, and family. Some of them will start to fly again around 2038, when I'm worn out.
>
>
>
> The issues:
>
>
>
> 1)Older youth are slower learners, so it is hard for a middle age pilot to get enough training and progress at an acceptable pace in the current system. It took me way too many seasons to get my rating. I saw a lot of other middle age students get discouraged and give up. Combination of bad weather, shortage of CFI-Gs, haphazard training, and my slow learning. It's highly improbable that I would persist to this point.
>
>
>
> 2)This is related to #1. The slow learning of older students puts a burden on volunteer CFI-Gs. The CFI-G gets tired of teaching that slower learner, the student picks up on that subliminally and quits. It is just taking too long and that CFI-G is understandably cranky about it. Worse case, the CFIG pushes the student to take the flight test before the student is really ready (and they pass). Getting the rating does not make you a good and safe pilot.
>
>
>
> 3)The shortage of modern club gliders. Okay. So I have my rating. Now how do I get my Silver Badge? Fortunate for me, I found a club that has a PW-6 and I can do some XC tandem flights with some expert older XC pilots, and being advanced in years, they like to have a backup pilot in the cockpit. It's fun. WIN WIN. And I have a decent glider to solo. The appeal of doing XC training in a 2-33 is absolute ZERO. Too uncomfortable. No 2-place modern club gliders? Time to quit and take up sailing.
>
>
>
> Action Items:
>
>
>
> 1)Shorten the duration of the training period for middle age students. Train smarter. Be more systematic. Based on my student experience, glider training is haphazard. The reluctance of CFI-G to exploit Condor to speed up the initial phase of training baffles me. Old dogs, new trick maybe. I guess Condor is not so much fun for the CFI-G. So let's train CFI-Gs to use Condor as a tool. You can start to train on Condor in January and students will have a leg up once the snow melts.
>
>
>
> 2)Invest in more 2-place modern gliders. Most glider pilots have capital (or they would have taken up bird watching instead). If half of them would sign $2-3000 promissory notes, we could update the training fleet tomorrow. I mean... what do you earn on your CDs? .2%? My glider club pays me 3% on the promissory note that I signed and that helps finance our new glider, AND I get to fly a nice new glider! Huge ROI. Stop flapping the jaws and step up gentlemen! Clubs did this back in the day and bought the 2-33 fleet. Inflation adjusted, it is the same money. Why are the purse strings held tighter today? New Butterfly Vario or Promissory Note? Your choice.
>
>
>
> Bonus Step:
>
> Start launching with a winch. That will pull in, train and retain the 'young Youth' pilots. It will probably shorten the calendar duration of everyone's training because more flights will get launched on Saturday afternoon.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 3:32:08 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:25:53 PM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
>
> > "Sean F (F2)" > wrote: > In the US Soaring SSA years (dog years) this 44 year old pilot is about 16. > > ;-)! Sweet then as a 37year old can I apply for a Kolstad scholarship??? Pete (usually the youngest at a soaring event if Tony C isn't around)
>
>
>
> you can apply all you want :)
>
>
>
> actually reminds me of when our local then teenager John Bird submitted for his 100km Kolstad pin and the SSA office figured it was a joke since the 'other' John Bird who had been on the US team was *ahem* well over 26. A few phone calls and it was discovered that there was more than one John Bird in the SSA!

Is this the one at Penn State?

[Frank Whiteley]

On Friday, February 22, 2013 5:34:59 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
> On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. <
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.
>
>
>
> yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.

USAF helicopter pilot showed up at the club today while we were winch launching. He's been just up the road for seven years and just discovered us. We'll get him started, but he'll be in M-ASA country in August.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 5:40:52 PM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Try this one!
>
>
>
> http://youtu.be/EQw5AjrBjXE
>
>
>
> The USA desperately needs more youth pilots. I am starting to work on this a bit and plan on putting some real effort in for the coming years.
>
>
>
> Sean

psst, http://cadet.ssa.org

[Tony[_5_]]

Yes the same one