Learn from a master.

[Roberto Waltman[_2_]]

http://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/oceanus/albatross2_132253.jpg
--
Roberto Waltman

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[Bill D]

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 7:30:55 AM UTC-7, Roberto Waltman wrote:
> http://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/oceanus/albatross2_132253.jpg
>
> --
>
> Roberto Waltman
>
>
>
> [ Please reply to the group,
>
> return address is invalid ]

Yeah, but he's not sitting straight in the 'cockpit' :-)

Slightly more seriously, there is a paper (which I can't find right now) reporting results obtained from tiny GPS loggers carried by Albatross. Their long-distance, non-stop foraging flights - some over 3000km - would make any OLC competitor cry. This made some wonder if there should be a special category on OLC for "non-human" aviators.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 11:39:11 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:

> Yeah, but he's not sitting straight in the 'cockpit' :-)

I noticed that too. She is obviously doing it right, so there must be some advantage. I wonder if this captures a typical albatross turn.

So maybe glider pilots are doing it wrong.

[John Carlyle]

Find out - twist the cockpit section of the glider the next time you fly...

-John, Q3

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 12:52:18 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, March 3, 2013 11:39:11 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
>
> > Yeah, but he's not sitting straight in the 'cockpit' :-)
>
> I noticed that too. She is obviously doing it right, so there must be some advantage. I wonder if this captures a typical albatross turn.
>
> So maybe glider pilots are doing it wrong.

[Roberto Waltman[_2_]]

Bill D wrote:
>... there is a paper (which I can't find right now) reporting results obtained from tiny GPS loggers carried by Albatross.
> Their long-distance, non-stop foraging flights - some over 3000km - would make any OLC competitor cry.

This one?
www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2002/WSci295.pdf

"he movement of a male was recorded
for 20.2 hours at sea with the bird
spending 68.8% of its time in fligh
and covering a total distance of
1014 km (i.e., 996 km in flight and the
rest drifting).
The average flight speed was 71.6 km/h"
--
Roberto Waltman

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[TravisBrown73[_2_]]

I am going to sound awfully ignorant here, but are glider pilots supposed to be sitting strait up in the cockpit while turning? I have always cocked my head so as to be semi-close to level while in turns. (Motorcycle riders do it...) Is there some consensus among glider pilots that I don't know about that would suggest otherwise? I don't here much talk on this subject at all...but it is interesting.
~Travis
>
>
> So maybe glider pilots are doing it wrong.

[TravisBrown73[_2_]]

I am going to sound semi-ignorant here, but are glider pilots supposed to be sitting strait up in the cockpit while turning? I have always cocked my head so as to be semi-close to level while in turns. (Motorcycle riders do it...) Is there some consensus among glider pilots that I don't know about that would suggest otherwise? I don't hear much talk on this subject at all....but it is interesting.
~Travis

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

On Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:21:08 PM UTC-8, TravisBrown73 wrote:
> I am going to sound awfully ignorant here, but are glider pilots supposed to be sitting strait up in the cockpit while turning? I have always cocked my head so as to be semi-close to level while in turns. (Motorcycle riders do it...) Is there some consensus among glider pilots that I don't know about that would suggest otherwise? I don't here much talk on this subject at all...but it is interesting.
>
> ~Travis
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So maybe glider pilots are doing it wrong.

I've had instructors from both camps. Personal experience plus watching cockpit footage of some of the top aerobatic pilots leads me to believe there is some advantage to keeping your head oriented to the horizon. I'm curious as to other opinions / justifications.

Craig

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSxAAIYKPsM (watch the head gyrations at 1:50)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/3/2013 8:35 PM, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Sunday, March 3, 2013 8:21:08 PM UTC-8, TravisBrown73 wrote:
>> I am going to sound awfully ignorant here, but are glider pilots
>> supposed to be sitting strait up in the cockpit while turning? I
>> have always cocked my head so as to be semi-close to level while in
>> turns. (Motorcycle riders do it...) Is there some consensus among
>> glider pilots that I don't know about that would suggest otherwise?
>> I don't here much talk on this subject at all...but it is
>> interesting.
>>
>> ~Travis

>>
>>> So maybe glider pilots are doing it wrong.
>
> I've had instructors from both camps. Personal experience plus
> watching cockpit footage of some of the top aerobatic pilots leads me
> to believe there is some advantage to keeping your head oriented to
> the horizon. I'm curious as to other opinions / justifications.
>
> Craig
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSxAAIYKPsM (watch the head gyrations
> at 1:50)
>

I've always kept my head vertical so I can easily scan the horizon,
looking for other gliders and where I might want to go next. I thought
everybody did that!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[BobW]

On 3/3/2013 9:27 PM, TravisBrown73 wrote:
> I am going to sound semi-ignorant here, but are glider pilots supposed to
> be sitting strait up in the cockpit while turning? I have always cocked my
> head so as to be semi-close to level while in turns. (Motorcycle riders do
> it...) Is there some consensus among glider pilots that I don't know about
> that would suggest otherwise? I don't hear much talk on this subject at
> all...but it is interesting. ~Travis
>

Ruh roh! This question may border on "religion." I mostly encountered people
from two camps, those who believe/say: a) "Keep your head in-line with your
spine"; and b) "Keep (as much as possible) your eyes parallel to the horizon."

I suppose there's a 3rd camp, too: do whatever's necessary and works for you
to maintain control and a good scan! I'm in Camp 3.

Bob W.

[[email protected]]

Uh, yeah, that's the ticket. I had to think about this since
I've never really paid much attention to it, but on reflection
I'm one of those that keep their head fairly vertical. There's
a limit to how far over your head can tilt though.

Anyway, I agree with "whatever works" so that you can keep up
your scan. It's my biggest bugaboo with students nowadays
that they never scan for traffic, having spent so much time
in front of video games and flight simulators.

Matt

[POPS]

;834320']http://www.whoi.edu/cms/images/oceanus/albatross2_132253.jpg
--
Roberto Waltman

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May be interesting to know what foil section is being used for max performance, like in the photo... I know it's variable....

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

All the bird pictures I have seen have the birds keeping their heads level in steep turns. But few if any do rolls past vertical, AFAIK.

In the UK, I was taught to keep head in line with spine. AFAIK, it is universal here.

It is interesting to watch the techniques of these aerobatic pilots:

http://www.flixxy.com/aerobatic-flight.htm

Chris N

[Dan Marotta]

I've seen crows and ravens perform aileron rolls and snap rolls (three in a
row, once!). I never thought to watch their heads during the maneuvers.


"Chris Nicholas" > wrote in message
...
> All the bird pictures I have seen have the birds keeping their heads level
> in steep turns. But few if any do rolls past vertical, AFAIK.
>
> In the UK, I was taught to keep head in line with spine. AFAIK, it is
> universal here.
>
> It is interesting to watch the techniques of these aerobatic pilots:
>
> http://www.flixxy.com/aerobatic-flight.htm
>
> Chris N
>

[Bill D]

On Monday, March 4, 2013 7:59:55 PM UTC-7, Chris Nicholas wrote:
> All the bird pictures I have seen have the birds keeping their heads level in steep turns. But few if any do rolls past vertical, AFAIK.
>
>
>
> In the UK, I was taught to keep head in line with spine. AFAIK, it is universal here.
>
>
>
> It is interesting to watch the techniques of these aerobatic pilots:
>
>
>
> http://www.flixxy.com/aerobatic-flight.htm
>
>
>
> Chris N

While I agree with BobW that it's OK for an individual pilot to use whatever technique 'works' for them, I teach students head in line with spine for several reasons. One is it's less tiring on long flights since the lateral neck muscles aren't as stressed by G forces. Two, a student's vestibular reactions can get confused by constantly leaning the head left and right which also leads to fatigue if not outright air sickness. Third, sitting with the body and head straight establishes a close correlation between butt, head and yaw string which is very useful for "feeling" slips and skids without looking at the yaw string. In effect, it's like using one's body as a highly sensitive ball in a ball/bank instrument.

Birds and humans usually fly for different purposes which leads to different techniques. Their flying is optimized for foraging and species survival. For example, it may be easier to spot a fish if the eyes are level with the water. Our flying is for sport.

The two aerobatic pilots are indeed interesting. The woman is likely predominately using her "feel" of the airplane while the man is predominately using his eyes to accurately position the airplane. Both are valid and necessary for a good pilot.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/5/2013 9:07 AM, Bill D wrote:

>
> While I agree with BobW that it's OK for an individual pilot to use
> whatever technique 'works' for them, I teach students head in line
> with spine for several reasons. One is it's less tiring on long
> flights since the lateral neck muscles aren't as stressed by G
> forces. Two, a student's vestibular reactions can get confused by
> constantly leaning the head left and right which also leads to
> fatigue if not outright air sickness. Third, sitting with the body
> and head straight establishes a close correlation between butt, head
> and yaw string which is very useful for "feeling" slips and skids
> without looking at the yaw string. In effect, it's like using one's
> body as a highly sensitive ball in a ball/bank instrument.

If your head is in line with your spine in a turn, how do you
comfortably look in the direction you are turning? I'm normally looking
at right angles to the fuselage at the horizon, so I have to tilt my
head to the right (relative to my body) in a left turn. If I kept it in
line with my spine, I'd have to force my eyeballs way up in my eye
sockets (uncomfortable), and likely the hat brim would keep me from
seeing across the circle.

Maybe we need to take pictures of ourselves in turning flight.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Bill D]

> If your head is in line with your spine in a turn, how do you
> comfortably look in the direction you are turning?

Good question. Shave your eyebrows? I just tried it from an armchair and it doesn't seem difficult either way.

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:12:33 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
> > If your head is in line with your spine in a turn, how do you
>
> > comfortably look in the direction you are turning?

If you can keep your head level with the horizon while thermalling, you are thermalling WAY to shallow! I flew yesterday and tried it - at my normal 40-45 degree of bank there is no way to keep my head level and inside the cockpit, and it would be extremely uncomfortable. Add the fact that I'm looking around, usually into the turn, and the answer is you move your head to the best postition that allows your eyes to see where you want to see.

When doing acro, you have to start with your head aligned to the aircraft axis. Then you move it as needed to pick up your pitch and roll cues.

This should be completely automatic!

Kirk
66

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 3/6/2013 6:57 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 2:12:33 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
>>> If your head is in line with your spine in a turn, how do you
>>
>>> comfortably look in the direction you are turning?
>
> If you can keep your head level with the horizon while thermalling,
> you are thermalling WAY to shallow! I flew yesterday and tried it -
> at my normal 40-45 degree of bank there is no way to keep my head
> level and inside the cockpit, and it would be extremely
> uncomfortable. Add the fact that I'm looking around, usually into
> the turn, and the answer is you move your head to the best postition
> that allows your eyes to see where you want to see.

I routinely thermal at 40-45 degrees, as measured by the instrument
screws. I know I'm not keeping my head in line with my spine, but I
can't be certain it's vertical, either. Maybe it's in between - I'll
take a picture or two next time I fly to see what's happening.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[JohnDeRosa]

Let us all remember that an albatross, though a great soaring bird,
has an engine.

I've got to believe that somewhere along the 3km flight mentioned
above that he flapped his wings. My $0.02.

No landouts for him!

- John