2013 USA Competition Rules Published

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and Process page of the SSA website (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857).

You can access the rules directly via these links:

National FAI Class http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf

National Sport Class http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf

Regional FAI Class http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf

Regional Sport Class http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf

Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.

There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.

For the committee,
John Godfrey, Chair

[Peter von Tresckow]

"John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
> The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and
> Process page of the SSA website (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857).
>
> You can access the rules directly via these links:
>
> National FAI Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> National Sport Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Regional FAI Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Regional Sport Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the
> opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.
>
> There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.
>
> For the committee,
> John Godfrey, Chair

Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
etc?

I think that may actually help people get into racing.

Thanks

Pete

[Paul Remde]

Hi Peter,

Yes. The Sailplane Racing Association's Guide to Soaring Competition is the
best resource I'm aware of.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/SRA/SRA-Guide.htm

Many other excellent free soaring article downloads are available here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books.htm#Free_Downloads

Also, reading the rules is highly recommended. They are intimidating and
not very exciting, but not so tough to read as they appear at first glance.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_______________________________

"Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message
...

"John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
> The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and
> Process page of the SSA website
> (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857).
>
> You can access the rules directly via these links:
>
> National FAI Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> National Sport Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Regional FAI Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Regional Sport Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the
> opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.
>
> There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.
>
> For the committee,
> John Godfrey, Chair

Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
etc?

I think that may actually help people get into racing.

Thanks

Pete

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Monday, March 4, 2013 11:19:44 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Peter,
>
>
>
> Yes. The Sailplane Racing Association's Guide to Soaring Competition is the
>
> best resource I'm aware of.
>
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/SRA/SRA-Guide.htm
>
>
>
> Many other excellent free soaring article downloads are available here:
>
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books.htm#Free_Downloads
>
>
>
> Also, reading the rules is highly recommended. They are intimidating and
>
> not very exciting, but not so tough to read as they appear at first glance.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Paul Remde
>
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> _______________________________
>
>
>
> "Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> "John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
>
> > The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and
>
> > Process page of the SSA website
>
> > (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857).
>
> >
>
> > You can access the rules directly via these links:
>
> >
>
> > National FAI Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > National Sport Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > Regional FAI Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > Regional Sport Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the
>
> > opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.
>
> >
>
> > There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.
>
> >
>
> > For the committee,
>
> > John Godfrey, Chair
>
>
>
> Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
>
> neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
>
> etc?
>
>
>
> I think that may actually help people get into racing.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Pete

The latest version of the competition guide is maintained at ssa.org. Look under Sailplane Racing / Rules and Process, under the heading "Important Reading" :-).

T8

[[email protected]]

> Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
>
> neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
>
> etc?
>
>
>
> I think that may actually help people get into racing.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Pete

As much as I would hate to dissuade anyone from reading the rules, the rules appendix, and the guide to competition, do know that most contests, especially a sports class regional, will assign you a "mentor" and provide lots of other support for learning the rules and procedures in real time.

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 4, 2013 11:19:44 AM UTC-5, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi Peter, Yes. The Sailplane Racing Association's Guide to Soaring Competition is the best resource I'm aware of. http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/SRA/SRA-Guide.htm Many other excellent free soaring article downloads are available here: http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books.htm#Free_Downloads Also, reading the rules is highly recommended. They are intimidating and not very exciting, but not so tough to read as they appear at first glance. Best Regards, Paul Remde Cumulus Soaring, Inc. _______________________________ "Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message ... "John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote: > The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and > Process page of the SSA website > (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857). > > You can access the rules directly via these links: > > National FAI Class > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf > > National Sport Class > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf > > Regional FAI Class > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf > > Regional Sport Class > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules..pdf > > Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the > opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period. > > There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier. > > For the committee, > John Godfrey, Chair Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies etc? I think that may actually help people get into racing. Thanks Pete

The SRA guide is obsolete. Use current resources on SSA web site.
UH

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback that the link below was to an old version of the
file on the SSA web site. I have updated the link.

Paul Remde

"Paul Remde" wrote in message ...

Hi Peter,

Yes. The Sailplane Racing Association's Guide to Soaring Competition is the
best resource I'm aware of.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/SRA/SRA-Guide.htm

Many other excellent free soaring article downloads are available here:
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books.htm#Free_Downloads

Also, reading the rules is highly recommended. They are intimidating and
not very exciting, but not so tough to read as they appear at first glance.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
_______________________________

"Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message
...

"John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
> The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and
> Process page of the SSA website
> (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857).
>
> You can access the rules directly via these links:
>
> National FAI Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> National Sport Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Regional FAI Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Regional Sport Class
> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the
> opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.
>
> There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.
>
> For the committee,
> John Godfrey, Chair

Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
etc?

I think that may actually help people get into racing.

Thanks

Pete

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 4, 2013 10:24:37 PM UTC-6, Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the feedback that the link below was to an old version of the
>
> file on the SSA web site. I have updated the link.
>
>
>
> Paul Remde
>
>
>
> "Paul Remde" wrote in message ...
>
>
>
> Hi Peter,
>
>
>
> Yes. The Sailplane Racing Association's Guide to Soaring Competition is the
>
> best resource I'm aware of.
>
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/SRA/SRA-Guide.htm
>
>
>
> Many other excellent free soaring article downloads are available here:
>
> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books.htm#Free_Downloads
>
>
>
> Also, reading the rules is highly recommended. They are intimidating and
>
> not very exciting, but not so tough to read as they appear at first glance.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> Paul Remde
>
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
> _______________________________
>
>
>
> "Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> "John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
>
> > The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and
>
> > Process page of the SSA website
>
> > (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6310235857).
>
> >
>
> > You can access the rules directly via these links:
>
> >
>
> > National FAI Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > National Sport Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > Regional FAI Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > Regional Sport Class
>
> > http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>
> >
>
> > Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the
>
> > opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.
>
> >
>
> > There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.
>
> >
>
> > For the committee,
>
> > John Godfrey, Chair
>
>
>
> Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
>
> neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
>
> etc?
>
>
>
> I think that may actually help people get into racing.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Pete

Charlie Spratt Story: During my very first contest at Uvalde in '90 I sat through the mandatory pilots meeting and when it was time for questions, I asked Charlie: What's a start time interval? When the laughter subsided, he sat there for a while, rolled his eyes, mumbled something about the idiots coming to these meets without having read any rules and assigned someone to me to explain the basics.
In short Pete, just go to a contest and figure it out! At some level we all did that.
Herb, J7

[John Carlyle]

Yeah, I learned (most of) them the hard way too, Herb (although I did read them several times). But Start Time Interval is a new one to me. I couldn't find it in the 2013 Sports Class National rules either. What is it?

-John, Q3

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:16:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Charlie Spratt Story: During my very first contest at Uvalde in '90 I sat through the mandatory pilots meeting and when it was time for questions, I asked Charlie: What's a start time interval? When the laughter subsided, he sat there for a while, rolled his eyes, mumbled something about the idiots coming to these meets without having read any rules and assigned someone to me to explain the basics.
>
> In short Pete, just go to a contest and figure it out! At some level we all did that.
>
> Herb, J7

[Tony[_5_]]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 9:31:30 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
> Yeah, I learned (most of) them the hard way too, Herb (although I did read them several times). But Start Time Interval is a new one to me. I couldn't find it in the 2013 Sports Class National rules either. What is it? -John, Q3 On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:16:33 AM UTC-5, wrote: > Charlie Spratt Story: During my very first contest at Uvalde in '90 I sat through the mandatory pilots meeting and when it was time for questions, I asked Charlie: What's a start time interval? When the laughter subsided, he sat there for a while, rolled his eyes, mumbled something about the idiots coming to these meets without having read any rules and assigned someone to me to explain the basics. > > In short Pete, just go to a contest and figure it out! At some level we all did that. > > Herb, J7

it's a relic, doesn't apply any more. like turnpoint cameras.

Pete i've found that the SSA guide mentioned earlier along with the appendix to the rules is very helpful in trying to figure out the details. I hear that the CD at the low performance contest is going to be a pretty nice guy, happy to help with questions, and good looking too. just get your glider finished, we'll see you in July :)

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 9:31:30 AM UTC-6, John Carlyle wrote:
> Yeah, I learned (most of) them the hard way too, Herb (although I did read them several times). But Start Time Interval is a new one to me. I couldn't find it in the 2013 Sports Class National rules either. What is it?
>
>
>
> -John, Q3
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:16:33 AM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> > Charlie Spratt Story: During my very first contest at Uvalde in '90 I sat through the mandatory pilots meeting and when it was time for questions, I asked Charlie: What's a start time interval? When the laughter subsided, he sat there for a while, rolled his eyes, mumbled something about the idiots coming to these meets without having read any rules and assigned someone to me to explain the basics.
>
> >
>
> > In short Pete, just go to a contest and figure it out! At some level we all did that.
>
> >
>
> > Herb, J7
John,
When writing the note I realized that the 'joke' was probably lost on today's contest pilots. Given the high median age of glider jockeys, I figured there might be some left who remember this. When turn-point cameras were common in the Dark Ages, we had to go through the start gate for repeat starts inside a start time interval that was set as part of the task. The idea was that an enterprising pilot could not start, fly to the 1st turnpoint, take a picture, return and start again (and go to the 2nd turnpoint). This went away with GPS recorders but not without the contest committee dragging their feet for some years.

[[email protected]]

What with all the excitement about club classs, igc rules, and artificial horizons, I never got around to writing the usual annual pilot’s guide to rule changes.

So, here is a very short “what’s new in the rules that a pilot needs to know about� for 2013.

10.8.2 Valid start
10.8.2.1 A valid start is a start obtained after the task has opened and after the pilot's last launch. A pilot must have a valid start to be given a scored start time and position. The best-scoring valid start of the claimed task is used.
10.8.2.1.1 Deleted 2013
10.8.2.1.2 Deleted 2013

It used to be that you had to take the last start with no penalty. We simplified it. Now any start is valid. And you always have the explicit right to choose any start point that gives you a better score.

Example: If you start out the top, fall back in the cylinder, and exit 2:30 minutes later, your first start out the top is still valid.

Note that winscore does not automatically pick the right start. If you want something other than the last start, you are well advised to make sure the scorer found it.

Scorers: until winscore finds them automatically, you should look for starts out the top even if the later start out the side does not trigger a penalty. You should choose the start that gives the best score including penalties, not necessarily the longest flight, shortest time, lowest penalty, etc.

You still are only credited with distance in the “front half� of the cylinder, though starts out the top or side of the “back half� of the cylinder are still valid and trigger no penalties.

Finish

10.9.2. There are no changes to the rules, but reviewing how it works is useful so you’re not hauling out the rule book on final glide.

The typical finish height will now be 700 feet AGL or more.

If you finish between 500 and 700 feet, you get speed points but a penalty. The penalty is

12.1.4.5 Finish penalty (Rule 10.9.3.4): penalty = 5 + (Finish Height Difference) / 5.

So, 100 feet low means 25 points and 200 feet low means 45 points. These are pretty mild.

However, if you are more than 200 feet low, you are scored as if you landed out at the home airport.

10.9.2.5.3 When the Finish Height Difference is greater than 200 feet, the task is incomplete.

Again, no change, but this rule surprised a few pilots who finished very low last year and were scored as if landing out.

The strategic implication of this rule: The penalty for finishing up to 200 feet low is very mild. Don't do anything dumb if you're a few miles out and may end up slightly low. Well, don't do anything dumb, period.

If you judge that you will not make it with finish height – 200 feet to spare, it makes absolutely no difference to your score whether you land in the last good field below you, or stretch to make the airport. It is also worth stopping for any lift rather than cross the finish line 201 feet or more below the finish eight.

Team flying

Regionals

10.7.2.10 ‡ â€* Air-to-air radio communication between competing pilots is permitted, subject to the following rules:
10.7.2.10.1 ‡ â€* Such communications shall exclusively use aviation radios, and shall be done in a way that does not interfere with normal contest procedures conducted on the contest frequency.
10.7.2.10.2 ‡ â€* For any reason other than safety, radio communication with pilots not entered in the competition and ground-to air communication are prohibited.
10.7.2.10.3 ‡ â€* Contest organizers may elect to disallow the radio communication provided for in this Rule; this should be announced well prior to the Preferential Entry Deadline. Such communication may be disallowed for some classes and not for others.
10.7.2.10.4 ‡ â€* The CD may temporarily or permanently disallow radio communication that proves detrimental to the operation or safety of the contest

So, we’re allowed to team-fly, mentor, or help each other informally on the radio. Look for each CD to work out some procedures for the contest you fly in, especially when not to use 123.3. Pay attention!

The seniors has received a waiver from 10.7.2.10.1 allowing pilots to use walkie talkies. Other contests may do the same, especially if aviation frequencies are crowded.

Nationals

10.7.2.9 Air-to-air and ground-to-air radio communication for any reason other than safety is prohibited; an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty may apply (Rule 12.2.5.3).

The added “this rule specifically forbids team flying� has been dropped. You may not talk to each other in the air, or exchange data (text, etc.) but formal or informal cooperation is not against the rules. This was a clarification, not a change, but many pilots felt that all “team flying� was against the rules.

Relights

1.6 ‡ National competitions held at the same place and times as other competitions are to be given preference for entry positions, and in gridding and launching. When in the judgment of the Competition Director it is practical, re-launches of National entrants should also be given preference over those of other classes.
A1.6 This rule makes it clear that when contests are co-located, national competitions are given priority. "Preference" does not necessarily mean the national must be launched first every day, it just means that the CD must consider the needs of the national contest first.

So, if you’re at a nationals, and you have to relight during the regional launch, you may not have to wait until the end of the regional launch, and you may be allowed to cut in line ahead of regional relights. CDs need to know this too, and where possible let the national relight.

Showing up late.

If it’s pouring rain, you don’t have to be there 9 am first contest day. And, if you want to miss the first day and show up later that’s ok too – so long as you have completed ALL of the registration by mail.

A5.5.3.2 ‡ The physical presence of an entrant is not required at the time of entry deadline (registration). An entrant who wishes to arrive late may do so provided all contest registration requirements of Rule 5.5.3.1 have been completed prior to the specified deadline time and arrangements have been made to receive the required safety briefing directly from the CD. All pilots have a right to know about any entrant who plans to arrive late.

That's all I can think of that really matters to the average pilot. RC, have I forgotten something?

John Cochrane

[John Carlyle]

Thanks, Herb. While I'm well above median glider pilot age, I've only been guiding gliders since 2005, and have only ever used GPS flight recording. So STI was a mystery to me.

-John, Q3


On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 10:56:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> John,
>
> When writing the note I realized that the 'joke' was probably lost on today's contest pilots. Given the high median age of glider jockeys, I figured there might be some left who remember this. When turn-point cameras were common in the Dark Ages, we had to go through the start gate for repeat starts inside a start time interval that was set as part of the task. The idea was that an enterprising pilot could not start, fly to the 1st turnpoint, take a picture, return and start again (and go to the 2nd turnpoint). This went away with GPS recorders but not without the contest committee dragging their feet for some years.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 9:56:16 AM UTC-6, wrote:
"John, When writing the note I realized that the 'joke' was probably lost on today's contest pilots. Given the high median age of glider jockeys, I figured there might be some left who remember this. When turn-point cameras were common in the Dark Ages, we had to go through the start gate for repeat starts inside a start time interval that was set as part of the task. The idea was that an enterprising pilot could not start, fly to the 1st turnpoint, take a picture, return and start again (and go to the 2nd turnpoint). This went away with GPS recorders but not without the contest committee dragging their feet for some years."

I remember those days well, Herb. Helped get me out of last place one day at a contest long ago.

To the Rules Committee:

Forgot to mention this earlier, but maybe it can get done next year. 10.1.4 in the Nationals rules isn't needed any more. This paragraph currently says "Start Opens - at the time of the first launch." Since STI went away with cameras, there is no need to "open the start (gate)" before you "open the task". Likely a source of confusion to Open the Start but not Open the Task in this day of GPS control. If this paragraph gets deleted, it might help in avoiding some confusion. Same paragraph can go away from the other contest rules, too.

I like being able to delete paragraphs from the rules!

Steve Leonard

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 11:21:29 AM UTC-5, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 9:56:16 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> "John, When writing the note I realized that the 'joke' was probably lost on today's contest pilots. Given the high median age of glider jockeys, I figured there might be some left who remember this. When turn-point cameras were common in the Dark Ages, we had to go through the start gate for repeat starts inside a start time interval that was set as part of the task. The idea was that an enterprising pilot could not start, fly to the 1st turnpoint, take a picture, return and start again (and go to the 2nd turnpoint). This went away with GPS recorders but not without the contest committee dragging their feet for some years."
>
>
>
> I remember those days well, Herb. Helped get me out of last place one day at a contest long ago.
>
>
>
> To the Rules Committee:
>
>
>
> Forgot to mention this earlier, but maybe it can get done next year. 10.1.4 in the Nationals rules isn't needed any more. This paragraph currently says "Start Opens - at the time of the first launch." Since STI went away with cameras, there is no need to "open the start (gate)" before you "open the task". Likely a source of confusion to Open the Start but not Open the Task in this day of GPS control. If this paragraph gets deleted, it might help in avoiding some confusion. Same paragraph can go away from the other contest rules, too.
>
>
>
> I like being able to delete paragraphs from the rules!
>
>
>
> Steve Leonard

Thanks Steve, I like to remove stuff too!
QT
Nuevo Piñata aka RC Chair

[Peter von Tresckow]

> wrote:
> On Monday, March 4, 2013 10:24:37 PM UTC-6, Paul Remde wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the feedback that the link below was to an old version of the
>>
>> file on the SSA web site. I have updated the link.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Remde
>>
>>
>>
>> "Paul Remde" wrote in message ...
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes. The Sailplane Racing Association's Guide to Soaring Competition is the
>>
>> best resource I'm aware of.
>>
>> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books/SRA/SRA-Guide.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> Many other excellent free soaring article downloads are available here:
>>
>> http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/books.htm#Free_Downloads
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, reading the rules is highly recommended. They are intimidating and
>>
>> not very exciting, but not so tough to read as they appear at first glance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>>
>>
>> Paul Remde
>>
>> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>>
>> _______________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> "Peter von Tresckow" wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> "John Godfrey (QT)" > wrote:
>>
>>> The US Competition Rules for 2013 have been posted on the Rules and
>>
>>> Process page of the SSA website
>>
>>> (http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbrc10235857).
>>
>>>
>>
>>> You can access the rules directly via these links:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> National FAI Class
>>
>>> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>>
>>>
>>
>>> National Sport Class
>>
>>> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20National%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Regional FAI Class
>>
>>> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20FAI-Class%20Rules.pdf
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Regional Sport Class
>>
>>> http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2013%20SSA%20U.S.%20Regional%20Sport-Class%20Rules.pdf
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Thanks to all who provided suggestions during 2012, participated in the
>>
>>> opinion poll and provided feedback during comment period.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> There are no changes from the summary of changes published earlier.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> For the committee,
>>
>>> John Godfrey, Chair
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks guys, I do have a newbie question. Is there a good resource for
>>
>> neophyte racing pilots that explains tasks, start procedures, strategies
>>
>> etc?
>>
>>
>>
>> I think that may actually help people get into racing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Pete
>
> Charlie Spratt Story: During my very first contest at Uvalde in '90 I
> sat through the mandatory pilots meeting and when it was time for
> questions, I asked Charlie: What's a start time interval? When the
> laughter subsided, he sat there for a while, rolled his eyes, mumbled
> something about the idiots coming to these meets without having read any
> rules and assigned someone to me to explain the basics.
> In short Pete, just go to a contest and figure it out! At some level we all did that.
> Herb, J7

Herb I agree that that is a good way to learn, and I kind of did that a few
years ago at sky soaring for they I contest. I think it would take a lot of
the anxiety out of going to your first contest if there is a good how to
manual to start with. Of you at least have the basics down it is a lot
easier for you to do we and have fun.

I think that may also be part of what keeps new people from trying contest
flying.

Hopefully the Ka6 will be repainted in time for the sky soaring event.

Pete

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 9:03:25 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Finish
>
> 10.9.2. There are no changes to the rules, but reviewing how it works is useful so you’re not hauling out the rule book on final glide.
>
> The typical finish height will now be 700 feet AGL or more.

> If you finish between 500 and 700 feet, you get speed points but a penalty. The penalty is

John, a quick question: How is the finish height defined and measured? For accuracy, it's really a QFE height (height above the runway, not above the ground where you finish). Not a big deal (since most of us don't have radar altimeters) but if you use your moving map "AGL" feature you might get a surprise! And if there are ridges around, you could be lot lower AGL but still be at or above your finish height. So is your finish height taken from your logger altitude, adjusted for difference in pressure altitude after landing?

Oh well, back to clock-watching at the finish...still a bad idea IMHO. And please don't tell us to "just get high enough so that you are comfortably above the finish height". That's like telling a NASCAR driver to stay nice and low, and not to draft too close... We will still be trying to burn off every foot of excess altitude to finish at 701 ft - staring at the altimeter.

[Dave Springford]

John,

The accident at the Canadian Nationals cannot be directly linked to the finish procedure. It was an out-landing accident. Please stop using this as justification for higher finishes.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:16:00 PM UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:
> John,
>
>
>
> The accident at the Canadian Nationals cannot be directly linked to the finish procedure. It was an out-landing accident. Please stop using this as justification for higher finishes.

As far as all the information I have, it was an outlanding accident about a mile from a finish ring with no minimum altitude for speed poiints. Of course we don't know what happened, and less what was in this pilots head, but this is exactly the scenario that has happened over and over again when pilots were encouraged to try for "speed points" by doing mac cready zero glides and popping over the fence. (In the szeged case, we know that is exactly what was going on)

The danger in the finish line and rolling finish has nothing to do with the finish itself. The danger, proved over and over again, is that blown final glides in which the pilot decides to land out starting at 300 feet or less lead to crash after crash.

[Dave Springford]

I guess that's the problem - assumptions based on rumours, or incorrect information. The accident happened substantially further away than 1 mile and the pilot was never above glide slope to make the field at Macready zero.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 8:38:37 PM UTC-6, Dave Springford wrote:
> I guess that's the problem - assumptions based on rumours, or incorrect information. The accident happened substantially further away than 1 mile and the pilot was never above glide slope to make the field at Macready zero.

Dave:

I talked to a number of pilots about this, and did my best to collect the available information. Please see the review on the 2012 contest safety report here

http://www.ssa.org/files/member/2012%20BB%20Safety%20Review.pdf

If any of that is inaccurate, please let me know. The coordinates I was given put the crash 1.5 miles from the finish ring, and my understanding of Canadian rules at the time is that one gets speed points by landing out just inside the ring -- as IGC rules encourage as well (See Rick Sheppe's posts from Argentina)

Monitoring contest crashes and getting at least some sense of where we actually have problems is an important part of the RC's job. It's just as important to monitor so that we know where we don't have problems! There are lots of safety theories that just do not show up in the statistics.

When the trace becomes available, it will matter to that monitoring whether this was in fact an outlanding gone bad -- starting from a sensible pattern at 600 feet -- or whether it was a last-minute blown-final-glide affair. Neither is good. We have many crashes from outlandings and low thermaling, and these bear thought. But they are indeed a different category for us all to consider how to fly safer.

We have had lots and lots of crashes involving final glides that end a mile or two short of the airport. Please see "contest safety" for numbers and "safer finishes" for analysis, both here

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/soaring/index.htm#safety_rules

Whether the tragedy at Canadian nationals adds to that or to another category of (alas quite frequent) accidents, the numbers over decades bear out that managing MacCready zero plus or minus 300 feet over the ground is a very tricky affair

John Cochrane

[kirk.stant]

John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).

Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!

The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.

You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.

See you at the races!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 11:08:41 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).
>
>
>
> Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!
>
>
>
> The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.
>
>
>
> You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.
>
>
>
> See you at the races!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

Kirk: Though in fact the numbers show many crashes involving 50 feet, 50 knots, and no ideas, I don't actually push this issue, because I do think adequate pilot education can solve it. OK, I think I'm smart enough to do a rolling finish in this situation.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FINISH. IT'S NOT ABOUT PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO FLY PATTERNS. It's about the marginal final glide that the low finish sets up. We give 1000 points on one side of a barbed wire fence and 600 points on the other side of that fence.

Here, all of us really are in a quandary. If you want to be competitive, you have to be prepared to end up at 50 knots 50 feet over the fence, and to make last-minute landouts from a straight in 53 knot 45+1:1 glide, ducking into fields from 300 feet or less when it does not work out. The numbers bear out that this is extraordinarily difficult, for pilots well past "sports class beginners." These crashes happen at nationals and worlds too.

Beginners are not the problem. Sports class beginners land out long before they get to the coffin corner. The problem is you and me, experienced pilots who have read all the great stories about pulling up to pop over the last tree line, and who know this is a neccessary part of a competitive pilots' toolkit if the rules allow it. Historically, many pilots like you and me have mishandled this situation.

Maybe you feel you have the skills to do it. I know I don't, even though I've studied this intensively (!), and I carefully scope all the fields near the airport. The end of a long contest flight with marginal final glide is a time that I know I am bad at split second risk my life or lose this contest decisions.

My view is simple: this is the sort of thing that if we all studied it, we would volunteer for. I agree not to beat you by flying in the clouds if you agree not to beat me by fly in the clouds. We'll agree to remove the artificial horizons so we know we're keeping the deal. I agree not beat you by landing out, racing back at 90 mph, reassemble and start again, if you agree not to beat me the same way. We'll agree to abide by that rule.

And, I agree not to beat you by popping over the fence at 10 feet after a harrowing glide over the quarry, if you agree not to beat me the same way.

The rules are, really, just a gentleman's agreement between pilots of this sort. And our rules process in the end does not keep things that the majority of pilots don't end up feeling this way about. If, having tried it both ways, the majority of pilots really wants to go back to the old days, then so it shall be.

Now, do you really want to do it? Make no mistake about it, the top 10 at nationals will indeed push the glide to the last field before the airport, will glide over fences at 10 feet, and those not willing to do it will lose. Do you really want to go back to making that a central part of the skills we measure, and are you willing to clean up the occasional mess that results?

John Cochrane

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 9:33:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Thursday, March 7, 2013 11:08:41 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
>
> > John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > See you at the races!
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Cheers,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Kirk
>
> >
>
> > 66
>
>
>
> Kirk: Though in fact the numbers show many crashes involving 50 feet, 50 knots, and no ideas, I don't actually push this issue, because I do think adequate pilot education can solve it. OK, I think I'm smart enough to do a rolling finish in this situation.
>
>
>
> IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FINISH. IT'S NOT ABOUT PEOPLE'S ABILITY TO FLY PATTERNS. It's about the marginal final glide that the low finish sets up. We give 1000 points on one side of a barbed wire fence and 600 points on the other side of that fence.
>
>
>
> Here, all of us really are in a quandary. If you want to be competitive, you have to be prepared to end up at 50 knots 50 feet over the fence, and to make last-minute landouts from a straight in 53 knot 45+1:1 glide, ducking into fields from 300 feet or less when it does not work out. The numbers bear out that this is extraordinarily difficult, for pilots well past "sports class beginners." These crashes happen at nationals and worlds too.
>
>
>
> Beginners are not the problem. Sports class beginners land out long before they get to the coffin corner. The problem is you and me, experienced pilots who have read all the great stories about pulling up to pop over the last tree line, and who know this is a neccessary part of a competitive pilots' toolkit if the rules allow it. Historically, many pilots like you and me have mishandled this situation.
>
>
>
> Maybe you feel you have the skills to do it. I know I don't, even though I've studied this intensively (!), and I carefully scope all the fields near the airport. The end of a long contest flight with marginal final glide is a time that I know I am bad at split second risk my life or lose this contest decisions.
>
>
>
> My view is simple: this is the sort of thing that if we all studied it, we would volunteer for. I agree not to beat you by flying in the clouds if you agree not to beat me by fly in the clouds. We'll agree to remove the artificial horizons so we know we're keeping the deal. I agree not beat you by landing out, racing back at 90 mph, reassemble and start again, if you agree not to beat me the same way. We'll agree to abide by that rule.
>
>
>
> And, I agree not to beat you by popping over the fence at 10 feet after a harrowing glide over the quarry, if you agree not to beat me the same way.
>
>
>
> The rules are, really, just a gentleman's agreement between pilots of this sort. And our rules process in the end does not keep things that the majority of pilots don't end up feeling this way about. If, having tried it both ways, the majority of pilots really wants to go back to the old days, then so it shall be.
>
>
>
> Now, do you really want to do it? Make no mistake about it, the top 10 at nationals will indeed push the glide to the last field before the airport, will glide over fences at 10 feet, and those not willing to do it will lose. Do you really want to go back to making that a central part of the skills we measure, and are you willing to clean up the occasional mess that results?
>
>
>
> John Cochrane

Well said.

Thanks John,

Craig

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 12:08:41 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> John, I appreciate your concern with making finishes safer by eliminating "coffin corners" (MC 0 at 300'), but to me you are trying to eliminate the pilot from the equation a bit too much. Fine for Sports Class beginners, perhaps, but to me this is part of racing - accurately flown final glides, or landing out to avoid damage (can't win with a broken glider).
>
>
>
> Just because you can finish at 50' with a line, doesn't make it smart - since now you only get distance points for a rolling finish, if you are on that MC0 and barely making it, you still have no incentive to push it. If you cant cross the line and fly a normal pattern (either cross at 500' and blend into traffic, or if alone, push down and cross at Vne and pull up - yes, because it's fun and gives all those working or watching on the ground something to see), the decision process is still there. Crossing the line at 50ft and 60 knots get you nothing but distance points and a warning from the CD for dangerous flying!
>
>
>
> The point is, if the finish is "cross the runway then fly a safe pattern", then what I have to manage is getting across the runway high and/or fast enough for the existing conditions for a safe pattern and landing.
>
>
>
> You don't like it. Fine. I do, but I'm not making the rules, so I'll finish whatever way is legal and safe.
>
>
>
> See you at the races!
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

Um,
If a line is in use, you get speed points for a rolling finish (10.9.4).
"Rolling finish" has no meaning wrt a cylinder finish, the finish occurs at the cylinder boundary.
QT - RC Chair

[howdy]

OK, it's time to jump in here. Wish I didn't have to, but here goes. First, John, show me all the "many" and "lots of one mile short", "crash after crash" accidents caused by the finish line here in the US. Contest and date please. I know of several that you cite that were from dehydration and other factors, like thermalling too low, etc, not the line. As you and many other people know, dehydration has been the cause of many accidents and dumb stunts over the years. I propose we make a rule to do away with dehydration. Then lets make a rule to prevent flying below say 500 feet above any obstacle or persons within 1/2 mile, to avoid a "clear violation of AIM procedures" Your words in quotes. Yeehaa Mifflin! Lets just go through the AIM and make our rules conform more closely. John, you brought it up.

Let's cut thermalling off at a "comfortable" altitude of, say, 700 feet. That would have saved several lives over the years, contests and otherwise. Once you get below 700 feet, you're scored as a landout. They call it pattern altitude for a reason, right? Or, let's make a rule outlawing mid-airs. Lord knows we've had a few of those in recent years, so wouldn't you agree that it's worth having a rule or two? Lets say no thermalling within 500 feet of another competitor. That would have prevent some recent collisions.

We could go on with all these examples, but it's only purpose would be to show what we already know; this sport, as with most high adventure sports, can be dangerous if we're not careful. If we chase every potential problem area with a solution, none of us will want to compete because it will be boring. The cylinder, and it's AS%$%$NE penalties, have chipped away at the fun, adventure and skill factor in a sport that is very demanding by design.. How far do we go before we legislate it to death? Do we only let the most experienced compete at the National level? I always go back to the timeless sayings; "AVIATION IN ITSELF IS NOT INHERANTLY DANGEROUS. BUT TO AN EVEN GREATER EXTENT THAN THE SEA IT IS TERRIBLY UNFORGIVING OF ANY CARELESSNESS, INCAPACITY OR NEGLECT." And another; IF ONE TOOK NO CHANCES, ONE WOULD NOT FLY AT ALL. SAFETY LIES IN THE JUDGEMENT OF THE CHANCES ONE TAKES. So it is with our sport. We can accept that and try to educate new competitors on the dangers and solutions to problems, or we can further kill our sport with solutions that are looking for a problem. Problems that can easily be overstated and overregulated by the use of words like "many", "crash after crash", etc, etc.

John, you are clearly great with numbers, but if I looked at the safety numbers of this, or any other high adventure sport, I would go home and play checkers against myself. I would like to have an equation that would show when we totally kill the fun in this sport with rules, and how close are we to doing that?

I know the "what would you do?" question is coming. Let me say, just to be clear, I would not be satisfied with even one single fatality in this great sport per year either. Lets find the cause of each accident, or incident and educate, educate, educate.

Respectfully,

MK

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, March 7, 2013 3:29:09 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> Um,
>
> If a line is in use, you get speed points for a rolling finish (10.9.4).
>
> "Rolling finish" has no meaning wrt a cylinder finish, the finish occurs at the cylinder boundary.
>
> QT - RC Chair

My mistake, I thought rolling finishes had been eliminated from both. Need to read the rules closer, obviously.

Which brings up an interesting point (and then I'll stop whining about finishes, I promise!) - if the whole point of the cylinder finish is to ensure a pilot has enough energy to fly a safe pattern, why not just make that a requirement? You finish when you cross the line, at least 50', but with enough energy to fly a safe pattern (whatever that is defined as). No rolling finish for speed, it's a landout. So finish at 700' and 60 knots, or 50' and 150 knots, energy is energy. Fly a dangerous pattern, and the CD gives you a 1000 pt penalty - you get that for an airspace infringement, so why not. Now my final glide and finish is easy - make it over the airfield with enough energy to fly a pattern and land safely. Same result as the circle finish, but less math or clockwatching, and if you overcook your final glide (and your crew is watching) and the pattern is clear, you can still do a nice flyby for the fun of it.

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Friday, March 8, 2013 10:33:20 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, March 7, 2013 3:29:09 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
>
> > Um,
>
> >
>
> > If a line is in use, you get speed points for a rolling finish (10.9.4)..
>
> >
>
> > "Rolling finish" has no meaning wrt a cylinder finish, the finish occurs at the cylinder boundary.
>
> >
>
> > QT - RC Chair
>
>
>
> My mistake, I thought rolling finishes had been eliminated from both. Need to read the rules closer, obviously.
>
>
>
> Which brings up an interesting point (and then I'll stop whining about finishes, I promise!) - if the whole point of the cylinder finish is to ensure a pilot has enough energy to fly a safe pattern, why not just make that a requirement? You finish when you cross the line, at least 50', but with enough energy to fly a safe pattern (whatever that is defined as). No rolling finish for speed, it's a landout. So finish at 700' and 60 knots, or 50' and 150 knots, energy is energy. Fly a dangerous pattern, and the CD gives you a 1000 pt penalty - you get that for an airspace infringement, so why not. Now my final glide and finish is easy - make it over the airfield with enough energy to fly a pattern and land safely. Same result as the circle finish, but less math or clockwatching, and if you overcook your final glide (and your crew is watching) and the pattern is clear, you can still do a nice flyby for the fun of it.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

We prefer rules with quantitative limits, where possible, and not a big argument with the CD that in your glider with your great skill a 250 foot pattern at 50 knots was just fine.

So in the end we did exactly what you suggest. 500 feet a mile out and 50 knots is about the minimum for a pattern. Anything more than that, good for you.

Now, there is a lot of complaints that the rules are too complex. Do you really think it's worth the extra complexity of trying to measure speed, account for wind and water ballast, give you "energy credits" for extra airspeed, fight about "now pilots have to watch the flight computer GPS groundspeed readout and do a lot of math", all so that you can blast through the cylinder wall at 150 feet and 150 knots and do a big zoomie, rather than slow up in the last mile, look around you for other gliders, use the same energy to finish at 700 feet and 60 knots, and then gently sequence into the pattern....Remembering that the rules are the same for everybody, so none of this will make any difference at all in who beats who?

A show finish/low pass box seems like a much better idea

John Cochrane

[John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]]

On Friday, March 8, 2013 11:33:20 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, March 7, 2013 3:29:09 PM UTC-7, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
>
> > Um,
>
> >
>
> > If a line is in use, you get speed points for a rolling finish (10.9.4)..
>
> >
>
> > "Rolling finish" has no meaning wrt a cylinder finish, the finish occurs at the cylinder boundary.
>
> >
>
> > QT - RC Chair
>
>
>
> My mistake, I thought rolling finishes had been eliminated from both. Need to read the rules closer, obviously.
>
>
>
> Which brings up an interesting point (and then I'll stop whining about finishes, I promise!) - if the whole point of the cylinder finish is to ensure a pilot has enough energy to fly a safe pattern, why not just make that a requirement? You finish when you cross the line, at least 50', but with enough energy to fly a safe pattern (whatever that is defined as). No rolling finish for speed, it's a landout. So finish at 700' and 60 knots, or 50' and 150 knots, energy is energy. Fly a dangerous pattern, and the CD gives you a 1000 pt penalty - you get that for an airspace infringement, so why not. Now my final glide and finish is easy - make it over the airfield with enough energy to fly a pattern and land safely. Same result as the circle finish, but less math or clockwatching, and if you overcook your final glide (and your crew is watching) and the pattern is clear, you can still do a nice flyby for the fun of it.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

The "whole point" of the cylinder finish goes beyond "ensuring a pilot has enough energy to fly a safe pattern." What this is certainly a necessary item it is not the whole story at all.

We rewrote the Rules Guide appendix on cylinder finishes this year to try and make this more clear.

A10.9.2 ‡ Cylinder Finish
A cylinder finish means that the race does not end at the airport, rather it ends at a defined altitude and distance from the airport. Use of the cylinder for a finish is desirable in a number of circumstances including:

1) The contest is held at a public-use airfield where the field is open to non-contest traffic during the finish

2) The contest includes a Regional Sport class

3) A finish line creates the potential for low energy finishes over densely populated or busy areas (e.g. roads)

4) Any other circumstance that creates safety issues for a line finish. (QT note: especially for "civilians" - think Szeged)

In setting the Minimum Finish Height (MFH), the CD should take into account expected weather, glider performance, pilot skill and experience and local traffic. The goal is for all pilots to be able to safely merge into the pattern, land normally, and roll safely clear.

Note that the MFH is the minimum height for a penalty-free finish. Because a valid finish (with a very small penalty) may be up to 200 ft below the MFH (to accommodate instrumentation errors), it is this lower height that should be considered when setting the MFH. Thus the MFH should normally be 700 ft AGL, which avoids creating the big step in points (landout rather than speed finish) at 300 ft AGL.

When non-contest traffic is allowed during the time gliders are finishing, consider a MFH of at least 1000 ft. AGL at one mile, plus 200 ft per mile beyond that with the goal that contest and non-contest traffic can be smoothly integrated into a normal pattern.

QT - RC Chair

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, March 8, 2013 10:19:12 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> We prefer rules with quantitative limits, where possible, and not a big argument with the CD that in your glider with your great skill a 250 foot pattern at 50 knots was just fine.

Yeah, I figured that would be a non-starter with you.

Where I usually fly (and occasionally race) in AZ the last 10 miles are unlandable. I mean "die if you try" unlandable. So I am used to figuring final glides with an pad and an out (that last strip at 10 miles). So are the rest of the guys who fly (and race) here. Yet we manage - and when we have a contest, we usually use a 1 mile 200' circle and go from there. Your approach is to take away the decision from the competitor - make it for him so he doesn't get into trouble. I'm not convinced that is the way to go. Yes it's "safer". So is not racing at all. When QT talks about making the finish 1000' agl or higher, I see the racing days getting shorter - to make sure there is enough lift to get up "over the bar". You obviously don't like creeping back home and sneaking in - because it's statistically dangerous. I see it as part of the sport. But I guess I'm a minority, so I'm willing to play by the rules just to continue enjoying this great sport. And I really do want to thank all of you on the RC for putting up with guys like me - without your work we couldn't even be having this little discussion!

Enough - lets get our gliders waxed and go racing!

Kirk
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