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Peter R.
February 26th 04, 03:10 AM
With the ownership formalities almost complete, today was the first day
of my transition to a complex aircraft, a '73 Beech Bonanza V35B. On
this cold but clear Northeast US afternoon, the instructor and soon-to-
be-previous owner both took turns flying the first leg while I sat in
the back, taking note of the particulars of leaning a turbo-normalized,
Gami-injected engine.

After a short climb, cruse, and descent demonstration, the owner landed
at a sleepy uncontrolled airport, taxied down to the approach end, then
shut it down. We all swapped seats so that the s-t-b-previous owner was
in the back, I was in the left seat, and the instructor was in the right
for the beginning of my instruction.

It was apparent that my 550 hours of experience in a slower, high-wing
aircraft etched a different outside picture than what I was now seeing.
I was not used to all that visibility in the V35 and my first
inclination was to climb steeper on takeoff than was comfortable for the
previous owner (and ultimately, the aircraft's engine). Lower the nose
a bit, gear up, prop back to 2500 RPM, and retrim. 110 kts on the
climb.

At level cruise, I had a tendency to drift up 300 to 500 fpm. Again, at
this attitude the extra visibility fooled me into thinking the aircraft
was in a descent, causing me to subconsciously pitch up.

The instructor requested a few turns, then sent me back to the
uncontrolled airport for my first landing. Slow down before entering
the 45, gear down, which dropped the airspeed from 140 to about 110 kts,
then turn downwind. Wow, are we moving fast on the downwind.

GUMPS check on downwind, turn base, GUMPS check on base, turn final,
GUMPS check on final. Yep, the was gear still down. :)

My first landing was a bit slow, as I pulled power back too fast on
short final. The stall warning horn went off about a second before
mains touched. The previous owner commented that I was too slow. Did I
mention that I had a different outside approach picture than the one I
was used to?

We pulled off the runway, I cleaned it up, then back to the approach end
for my second takeoff and return to our class C airport. Twilight was
now turning to night, so by the time we reached the class C airport, my
second landing in this aircraft was a night landing.

This time, I slowly pulled power back as we crossed the fence and was
able to maintain a more comfortable airspeed right to a smooth
touchdown. As a few Bonanza owners in this group commented, this
aircraft does appear to land easily.

On the ground and in the warmth of the FBO, the instructor and I had an
informative debriefing. I then scheduled him for several more days over
the next two weeks. This will be a challenging, yet fun transition.

--
Peter







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BTIZ
February 26th 04, 03:33 AM
Pete.. enjoy the Transition... you'll learn to keep trimming nose down for
cruise as the airspeed climbs to cruise.. that was also causing some of the
300ft gains in altitude on level off..

Learn the engine.. and learn the numbers.. an old "Flying by the Numbers"
article in Flying Magazine really hits home with the Bonanza, especially
when you start work on the instrument rating. You will learn what power
setting to use to get the airspeed you want. Set the power, level off at an
altitude and the airspeed will be what you want. It works great coming into
a VFR pattern also, you'll learn what power setting with gear extended or
not will give you the airspeed you want on downwind. That way you can
concentrate more on the outside instead of the inside. Set the power, level
off, and then just a glance at airspeed to confirm.

As for the 3xGUMPS check.. welcome to the club. It pays dividends, My
"Mantra" when ever I roll out on final, and again just over the fence, "On
Final, On Speed (or call the speed and correction you are making), 3 Green
(gear), Flaps (call the position), Prop (hi), Mixture, Cleared to Land"

Also look into the Bonanza Owners Flight Course.

BT
"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> With the ownership formalities almost complete, today was the first day
> of my transition to a complex aircraft, a '73 Beech Bonanza V35B. On
> this cold but clear Northeast US afternoon, the instructor and soon-to-
> be-previous owner both took turns flying the first leg while I sat in
> the back, taking note of the particulars of leaning a turbo-normalized,
> Gami-injected engine.
>
> After a short climb, cruse, and descent demonstration, the owner landed
> at a sleepy uncontrolled airport, taxied down to the approach end, then
> shut it down. We all swapped seats so that the s-t-b-previous owner was
> in the back, I was in the left seat, and the instructor was in the right
> for the beginning of my instruction.
>
> It was apparent that my 550 hours of experience in a slower, high-wing
> aircraft etched a different outside picture than what I was now seeing.
> I was not used to all that visibility in the V35 and my first
> inclination was to climb steeper on takeoff than was comfortable for the
> previous owner (and ultimately, the aircraft's engine). Lower the nose
> a bit, gear up, prop back to 2500 RPM, and retrim. 110 kts on the
> climb.
>
> At level cruise, I had a tendency to drift up 300 to 500 fpm. Again, at
> this attitude the extra visibility fooled me into thinking the aircraft
> was in a descent, causing me to subconsciously pitch up.
>
> The instructor requested a few turns, then sent me back to the
> uncontrolled airport for my first landing. Slow down before entering
> the 45, gear down, which dropped the airspeed from 140 to about 110 kts,
> then turn downwind. Wow, are we moving fast on the downwind.
>
> GUMPS check on downwind, turn base, GUMPS check on base, turn final,
> GUMPS check on final. Yep, the was gear still down. :)
>
> My first landing was a bit slow, as I pulled power back too fast on
> short final. The stall warning horn went off about a second before
> mains touched. The previous owner commented that I was too slow. Did I
> mention that I had a different outside approach picture than the one I
> was used to?
>
> We pulled off the runway, I cleaned it up, then back to the approach end
> for my second takeoff and return to our class C airport. Twilight was
> now turning to night, so by the time we reached the class C airport, my
> second landing in this aircraft was a night landing.
>
> This time, I slowly pulled power back as we crossed the fence and was
> able to maintain a more comfortable airspeed right to a smooth
> touchdown. As a few Bonanza owners in this group commented, this
> aircraft does appear to land easily.
>
> On the ground and in the warmth of the FBO, the instructor and I had an
> informative debriefing. I then scheduled him for several more days over
> the next two weeks. This will be a challenging, yet fun transition.
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Andrew Gideon
February 26th 04, 04:00 AM
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Hash: SHA1

Peter R. wrote:

Nice timing. Today was my first time in a complex too: a '79 182RG.

>
> The instructor requested a few turns, then sent me back to the
> uncontrolled airport for my first landing. Slow down before entering
> the 45, gear down, which dropped the airspeed from 140 to about 110 kts,
> then turn downwind. Wow, are we moving fast on the downwind.

That was the theme of the trip for me: "wow, are we moving fast". How can
maneuvering speed be so slow if this thing wants to move so quickly?

> My first landing was a bit slow, as I pulled power back too fast on
> short final. The stall warning horn went off about a second before
> mains touched. The previous owner commented that I was too slow. Did I
> mention that I had a different outside approach picture than the one I
> was used to?

I found myself struggling for the right power setting. What's the right
setting for a 500' descent? What's the right setting for downwind? What's
the right setting for...anything?

All that I found easy were climb and cruise, since those are well documented
in the POH.

The difference in the controls was also an issue. The throttle on the 172s
I've flown has been simple push/pull. I can control it with a fair amount
of precision w/o even looking. The 182 had a verner throttle. I could
twist, or I could hold the button and push/pull. But neither was really
"working" for me.

I know that this'll come...but it was frustrating to have to hunt for the
setting I wanted.

I found myself landing soft-field style, holding it up with a little extra
power just above the runway. But because the sight-picture was different,
I kept doing this a little high. And I'd bounce between relaxing it too
slowly and too quickly (see throttle differences above).

[...]
> On the ground and in the warmth of the FBO, the instructor and I had an
> informative debriefing. I then scheduled him for several more days over
> the next two weeks. This will be a challenging, yet fun transition.

Lucky you. I have to wait a week for my next chance.

- Andrew

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Ben Jackson
February 26th 04, 07:11 AM
In article >,
Peter R. > wrote:
>
>GUMPS check on downwind, turn base, GUMPS check on base, turn final,
>GUMPS check on final. Yep, the was gear still down. :)

What really got me was when I was used to flying a retract and didn't
spend the last few minutes of each flight obsessing over the gear and
later driving home I'd have this pang of fear because I *couldn't
remember putting the gear down*. This lasts just long enough to realize
that I'd know by now if I hadn't. :)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

Dennis O'Connor
February 26th 04, 12:26 PM
Pete, ya did good....
Just a few parenthetical comments to stir the pot... you said the stall
warning horn went off 1 second before touch down and the owner said you were
slow... When would he recommend that you get the stall warning horn to go
off - after touch down? <rhetorical question>

Full stall landings are what you should be doing... With the wheels 6 inches
off, the nose should be up and the horn sounding when touchdown occurs...
The slower the speed at touchdown the lower the incident of landing
accidents...Now, this does not mean you should drag it onto the field with
the horn blatting from a quarter mile out and drop it from 6 feet up; but
get the plane established level with the runway and the throttle closed,
then keep it off, and keep it off, and keep it off, until the yoke is
against your chest and the horn is blatting before the wheels touch... Your
tires will thank you, the brake pads will thank you, and your pocketbook
will thank you... What the passengers think is not your problem...

No, this will not result in those perfect greasers that make passengers <and
many pilots> think you are Lindy reincarnated, but perfect greasers are not
perfect landings... I can make a perfect greaser at Vso + 30, every time
<or nearly so>... Does that make it a perfect landing? <assuming I don't
blow a tire, or melt the brakes to avoid going off the end>

So, what's the rule, Vso + 5, then 5 additional knots for each child, and 10
for the little wifey, and another 5 just to be sure? -and the FBO has to
use a cannon to shoot me down before I end up in the next county -

Let me relate an incident from ~15 years ago, coming in to my home field in
my Super Viking.... End of a long day, including bouncing through the
thermals for some 600 miles, and I was pooped... Fatigue let me get a bit
fast (about 7 or 8 knots) on approach and as I set up the flare and began to
wait for the stall horn I went sailing past a pair of the locals waiting to
take the runway... I was embarrassed because I knew I was fast <long runway,
not a problem> and I knew they were judging my landing... The following
Saturday I am in the pilots lounge and they came in and began to regale
everyone with my "perfect greaser"... They were drooling with compliments,
"jeez, you went past with the wheels 3" off the ground for half the runway
and just greased it on. I shoulda hadda movie camera." They were sincere
and they thought it was a compliment... Most of the hangers on in the
lounge also were giving me thumbs up, etc... Except for one old A&P from the
tail dragger era who simply gave me a long look over his glasses as he took
a sip of his coffee... I didn't let on that I was embarrassed about it,
though I could feel my ears get a bit red...

OK, this has been fun and should bring the experts out of their sandbag
bunkers... For getting checked out in your Vee Tailed Doktor Killer, you
follow exactly what your instructor wants you to do... Just keep my comments
in the back of your head and after it is signed off to you, then do some
systematic testing by slowing up by 2 knots each time until you find that
speed that is the best compromise in getting the stall horn before
touching...

denny

"Peter R." > wrote in > With the ownership
formalities almost complete, today was the first day
> of my transition to a complex aircraft, a '73 Beech Bonanza V35B.

Tom Fleischman
February 26th 04, 01:42 PM
Peter,

Congratulations!

I have recently transitioned into an S35 with a 300HP IO-550 . What an
airplane!

These airplanes are real movers, are very slippery, and descents have
to be planned well in advance. It's very easy to get to VNE quickly
when you nose it over. In the airplane I'm flying I've found that once
I get down to TPA or level outside the FAF, 18" and 2400RPM gets me
down to 140kts pretty quickly if altitude is held. Once the gear and 10
degrees of flaps are out it flys like a Cherokee and is easy to land.
I've been told that (at least in the airplane I'm flying) it can take
on some ugly characteritics if you get slow with full flaps, so I've
been taught to delay full flaps until the runway is made.

I envy your ownership of one of these birds...Enjoy it!



In article >, Peter
R. > wrote:

<good post snipped>

john smith
February 26th 04, 02:27 PM
Okay, a couple more comments in addition to the excellent postings
already made...

- Weight and Balance. The Bonanza, because of it's leading edge fuel
tanks, develops and aft cg as fuel is burned.
ALWAYS calculate a takeoff and a LANDING cg. You may takeoff within
range, but depending on your leg length, the fuel burn will move the cg
aft of the rear limit.

- Emergency gear extension. This is where you want a good autopilot or
someone in the right seat to fly the airplane while you put your seat
all the way back and see just what it feels like to hand crank the gear
down. (50 turns on that little handle.)

- Go to Avweb and download all John Deakin's columns on flying complex
airplanes and leaning.

Closing comments.
The Bonanza is a sturdy, well built airplane. Its clean aerodynamics
will bite you if you don't pay attention. Learn to slow down gradually,
don't come blasting into the pattern at cruise speed and yank the power
off. Have your descents and approaches planned by the time you are 50
miles from your destination so you can implement them in a planned
fashion (reduce 1 inch mp per minute so that you are at landing power on
downwind).

Thomas Borchert
February 26th 04, 04:47 PM
Dennis,

I agree. Many people tend to land the Bo way too fast.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

SJC Flying Club
February 26th 04, 06:19 PM
Congrats on getting yourself into a Bo, they are indeed fine airplanes.

I transitioned to mine from cherokees and skyhawks, and there were 2 things
that really took some getting used to, besides the speed and comfort!!

The first is that nose-up tendency when changing from high power climb to
cruise. You need to anticipate the slightly nose down attitude and prepare
to trim aggresively, and it seems like you've already 'got it'.

The second is that the slipperiness (word?) can get you into trouble if the
autopilot is not engaged and you take your hands off the yoke. I was VFR
and flew into some soup and needed a popup IFR clearance. While copying the
route I dropped my clipboard, and in the few seconds it took to recover it,
the plane went into a 30 degree, 800fpm descent!! Yikes!! Now I make sure
the AP is on if I intend to do any significant heads-down time.

Even now, after several hundred hours, I still can't get over how docile and
easy she is to handle once the gear and flaps go down. Get the airspeed
right over the fence and it's easy to land and uses very little runway to
boot.

Welcome to the Bo club, enjoy your new bird.

Shawn
February 27th 04, 02:58 AM
Congrats to you.

I just received my high performance endorsement today. I bought into a
Cessna 206 about three weeks ago. I don't have the retracts, but the
extra hp, cowl flaps, constant speed prop, and just plane much bigger
plane have taken a lot to get use to. Actually, I'm still not use to
it, but, this is just the license to learn and get better.

All the best, and remember... If you don't like it, go around!

Roger Halstead
February 27th 04, 08:41 AM
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 07:26:42 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:

>Pete, ya did good....
>Just a few parenthetical comments to stir the pot... you said the stall
>warning horn went off 1 second before touch down and the owner said you were
>slow... When would he recommend that you get the stall warning horn to go
>off - after touch down? <rhetorical question>
>
>Full stall landings are what you should be doing... With the wheels 6 inches
>off, the nose should be up and the horn sounding when touchdown occurs...
>The slower the speed at touchdown the lower the incident of landing
>accidents...Now, this does not mean you should drag it onto the field with
>the horn blatting from a quarter mile out and drop it from 6 feet up; but

Dennis, you just reminded me of a spot landing contest in which I took
part some years ago.

One of the planes was a Cherokee 6 and the guy had it loaded. He had
three of his buddies in there that must have put it near gross.

He dragged it in, chopped the throttle and dumped the flaps.
That sucker dropped like some one had pulled the rug out from under
it. Man what a sound. It wounded like about half a dozen garbage cans
full of beer cans were dropped on the runway.

We couldn't find any damage, but I have never seen a plane hit that
hard before with out blood being spilled.

>get the plane established level with the runway and the throttle closed,
>then keep it off, and keep it off, and keep it off, until the yoke is
>against your chest and the horn is blatting before the wheels touch... Your
>tires will thank you, the brake pads will thank you, and your pocketbook
>will thank you... What the passengers think is not your problem...

Actually the Bo likes to do this. If you are't "too high" the horn
will sound and then it will just "settle" instead of drop. I've done
it from three feet up (I didn't say that) and it was just a "thump",
rather than a bang.

It's very gentle when the stall breaks if you are in ground effect,
unlike what it does on approach stalls when not in ground effect.
<:-))

With a bit of practice he should be able to land and turn off in
roughly 1500 feet without using the brakes. (not on a hot day with
high density altitude though).

>
>No, this will not result in those perfect greasers that make passengers <and
>many pilots> think you are Lindy reincarnated, but perfect greasers are not
>perfect landings... I can make a perfect greaser at Vso + 30, every time
><or nearly so>... Does that make it a perfect landing? <assuming I don't
>blow a tire, or melt the brakes to avoid going off the end>
>
>So, what's the rule, Vso + 5, then 5 additional knots for each child, and 10
>for the little wifey, and another 5 just to be sure? -and the FBO has to
>use a cannon to shoot me down before I end up in the next county -

The majority want to be able to glide in and that is a good 10 to 15
knots faster than the "desired" speed according to the POH.

>
>Let me relate an incident from ~15 years ago, coming in to my home field in
>my Super Viking.... End of a long day, including bouncing through the
>thermals for some 600 miles, and I was pooped... Fatigue let me get a bit
>fast (about 7 or 8 knots) on approach and as I set up the flare and began to
>wait for the stall horn I went sailing past a pair of the locals waiting to
>take the runway... I was embarrassed because I knew I was fast <long runway,
>not a problem> and I knew they were judging my landing... The following
>Saturday I am in the pilots lounge and they came in and began to regale
>everyone with my "perfect greaser"... They were drooling with compliments,
>"jeez, you went past with the wheels 3" off the ground for half the runway
>and just greased it on. I shoulda hadda movie camera." They were sincere
>and they thought it was a compliment... Most of the hangers on in the
>lounge also were giving me thumbs up, etc... Except for one old A&P from the
>tail dragger era who simply gave me a long look over his glasses as he took
>a sip of his coffee... I didn't let on that I was embarrassed about it,
>though I could feel my ears get a bit red...
>
>OK, this has been fun and should bring the experts out of their sandbag
>bunkers... For getting checked out in your Vee Tailed Doktor Killer, you
>follow exactly what your instructor wants you to do... Just keep my comments
>in the back of your head and after it is signed off to you, then do some
>systematic testing by slowing up by 2 knots each time until you find that
>speed that is the best compromise in getting the stall horn before
>touching...

All this from a guy who fly's a twin and used to fly a Viking...er ...
Super Viking. <:-)) Although the Bo will float with excess speed
you really have to work at it cuz the durn things slow down so quickly
once the gear and full flaps are out. Although the demonstrated
cross wind is only 12 knots or so some of them will handle up to a 25
knot cross wind if the pilot is capable.

The only thing I'd add, it compare your landing distances to the POH.
The Bo is one plane where you should be able to match the POH on
landing distance without being an unpteen thousand hour pilot. If the
instructor has you using twice as much distance to stop I'd ask him
why (politely and maintaining a PC decorum)

As Dennis says, Bo pilots as a whole tend to land much faster than
necessary. Think of it this way, compare the landing distances for a
172 and then look at the figures for the Bo. I think you'll be
surprised. Last summer I had a 172 come in behind me and try to make
the first turn off on 06 (terminal building). I easily made the turn
off while he went on by in cloud of tire smoke.

OK, one more thing... They tend to be a bit unforgiving with full
stalls until you get used to them. Then you can put one in a stall and
hold it there. Even think about touching an aileron and you
definitely will get a chance to practice unusual attitude recovery.
<snicker>. In stalls they are strictly a rudder only airplane.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>denny
>
>"Peter R." > wrote in > With the ownership
>formalities almost complete, today was the first day
>> of my transition to a complex aircraft, a '73 Beech Bonanza V35B.
>

Roger Halstead
February 27th 04, 08:55 AM
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:42:22 -0500, Tom Fleischman
> wrote:

>Peter,
>
>Congratulations!
>
>I have recently transitioned into an S35 with a 300HP IO-550 . What an
>airplane!
>
>These airplanes are real movers, are very slippery, and descents have
>to be planned well in advance. It's very easy to get to VNE quickly
>when you nose it over. In the airplane I'm flying I've found that once
>I get down to TPA or level outside the FAF, 18" and 2400RPM gets me

I typically fly the approaches at 120MPH.

>down to 140kts pretty quickly if altitude is held. Once the gear and 10
>degrees of flaps are out it flys like a Cherokee and is easy to land.

Except for the fuel consumption and the Cherokee is known for it's
docile handeling. <:-)) OTOH the Bo is probably one of the easiest
planes to land that's out there. (once you get used to the
interconnected controls)

>I've been told that (at least in the airplane I'm flying) it can take
>on some ugly characteritics if you get slow with full flaps, so I've
>been taught to delay full flaps until the runway is made.

When light they have an almost unbelievably slow stall (mine with me
and half fuel is 55 MPH). Fly the book figures and they are quite
predictable. Stall it and it'll show you just how unforgiving it can
become. When light I typically fly the later part of final around 75
MPH. The same is true for balked landing with every thing hanging
out. Instructors who are used to primary students may tend to forget
that you do not jam the throttle in, but ease in the power. If you
are in the round out, or about to flare and jam in the throttle, it's
likely to come right around sideways. Yet the difference is only a
half second to a full second to ease in the throttle.

Do this with an instructor who is thoroughly familiar with the
Bonanzas.
Take it up to altitude, and try the equivalent of a balked landing.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>I envy your ownership of one of these birds...Enjoy it!
>
>
>
>In article >, Peter
>R. > wrote:
>
><good post snipped>

Dennis O'Connor
February 27th 04, 11:53 AM
Yeah, and that was probably smoke from the nose wheel cuz the mains were
still 6" in the air...



"Roger Halstead" > Last summer I had a 172
come in behind me and try to make
> the first turn off on 06 (terminal building). I easily made the turn
> off while he went on by in cloud of tire smoke.

Peter R.
February 27th 04, 02:56 PM
Dennis O'Connor ) wrote:

> Full stall landings are what you should be doing...

Interesting that most of you commented on this, which is what I was hoping
would happen. :) I always strive for full stall landings in the C172,
too, so receiving an earful about the stall warning horn going off from the
previous owner shook me up a little.

His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

I will definitely talk with my "transition" instructor about this.


--
Peter












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Ben Jackson
February 27th 04, 05:40 PM
In article >,
Dennis O'Connor > wrote:
>
>Full stall landings are what you should be doing... With the wheels 6 inches
>off, the nose should be up and the horn sounding when touchdown occurs...

One thing that took me a while to appreciate when I transitioned from
C-172 spring steel gear to my Comanche's strut cusioned mains is that
you really do need to thump slightly to compress the struts and get some
traction. If you roll it on you are still flying, you just happen to
be dragging your tires along at the same time. And it extends the
transition between steering with the rudder and steering with the
nosewheel, which in a crosswind is a recipe for getting sideways (which
your mains will happily accommodate since they don't have much weight
yet).

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

Roger Halstead
February 27th 04, 10:23 PM
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
> wrote:

>Dennis O'Connor ) wrote:
>
>> Full stall landings are what you should be doing...
>
>Interesting that most of you commented on this, which is what I was hoping
>would happen. :) I always strive for full stall landings in the C172,
>too, so receiving an earful about the stall warning horn going off from the
>previous owner shook me up a little.
>
>His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
>slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
>experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.

Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
of a strange sensation at first. Sorta feels like over rotation and
you'll get to see that on soft field take offs. It you don't hold
the nose there, it will just settle onto the mains while staying in
the same attitude. The Bo has tremendous elevator authority and you
can keep the nose gear off down to.. as I guess I'd say, 30 or 40
MPH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>I will definitely talk with my "transition" instructor about this.
>

Mike Rhodes
February 28th 04, 11:20 PM
On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
> wrote:
>
>>
>>His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
>>slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
>>experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.
>
>Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
>To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
>When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
>not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
>of a strange sensation at first.

Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?
If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go
nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most
pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Or have I missed something in this thread?

Mike

Roger Halstead
February 29th 04, 06:06 AM
On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:20:28 -0600, Mike Rhodes
> wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:23:51 GMT, Roger Halstead
> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:56:21 -0500, Peter R.
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>His point was that the heavier the aircraft, the more the nose will come
>>>slamming down on the runway in a stalled landing. This pilot has a lot of
>>>experience in twins, as well, if that explains anything.
>>
>>Actually the Bo won't do that, at least not if it's in ground effect.
>>To get it to stall usually takes a "relatively" nose high attitude.
>>When it stalls onto the runway "from a normal height" the nose does
>>not drop at all. It stays put and the mains drop down which is kind
>>of a strange sensation at first.
>
>Because the typical Bonanza's cg has shifted to the rear on fuel burn?

No.
If you do your W&B calcs it's not a problem. The older Bo "Prior to
74 only had 1000# useful load and the CG shift isn't a problem like
the more recent models. However in either case it's not due to a CG
shift. When within the CG a Bo stalled "In Ground Effect" does not
drop the nose. I can load mine with 100 gallons (30 in the tip tanks,
50 mains, and 20 in the aux) and never have to worry about it going
out of CG) if I start in the middle.

>If the worry isn't that it won't pound the nose on landing, then you
>really need to watch that airspeed turning final. It won't go

You always need to watch the speed of any airplane.

>nose-down when you really need it to. But its been stated that most

It will go nose down if you want it too, but why would you want it to
drop the nose. Speed and power = attitude. IF the airspeed indicator
goes out, you know that so many inches of MP and so many degrees up on
the AI are still going to get you where you want to go. With the
power set you rarely have to look at the instruments if you know what
it's supposed to look like outside.

When I land, I do full stall landings and I keep the nose in the air
until I no longer have enough elevator authority to keep it there and
that is down around 30 to 40 MPH which is well after touch down.
(Stall with me alone and half fuel is only 55 MPH) That would make
the last part of final at 71 MPH which is one steep descent.

>pilots land it hot anyway. Seems there's a legit reason for it.

Pure baloney.
The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

If need be I can quote right from the ABS/ASF Pilot Proficiency
Training Manual as to their requirements. That class runs 10 hours of
class room and 4 to 5 hours of flight time.

There is no problem bringing in a Bo at 1.3 Vso in calm conditions. If
the winds kick up, add half the gust factor. The Bo is a very good
short field airplane for those who learn how to handle them.

>
>Or have I missed something in this thread?

Could be?
According to the ABS the big problem is pilots who make their own
rules and add a bit of speed instead of following the POH.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Mike

Peter R.
February 29th 04, 12:59 PM
Roger Halstead wrote:

> The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
> to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
> They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
> calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
> see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
> and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
> very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer

As always, Roger, your posts are very informative.

The ABS's pilot proficiency course schedule did not go out past spring,
but it looks like they routinely hold a course in a city not too far
from where I am based.

Acting on the advice of you and others in this group, I plan on
attending one of these courses by early summer.

--
Peter







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Roger Halstead
March 1st 04, 05:27 AM
On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 07:59:58 -0500, Peter R.
> wrote:

>Roger Halstead wrote:
>
>> The Airsafety Foundation and American Bonanza Society teach the pilots
>> to fly "by the numbers" and that means sticking to the book figures.
>> They require every pilot taking their pilot proficiency course to
>> calculate the speed for each landing and take off and they expect to
>> see you fly it. They do not want to see pilots adding 5 for the wife
>> and another for the kids and maybe an extra 10 for comfort. They are
>> very adamant about excess speed on landing being a killer
>
>As always, Roger, your posts are very informative.
>

Thanks, I appreciate that.

If you are a member of the ABS http://www.bonanza.org/ has the BPPP
schedule for the training and clinics.

>The ABS's pilot proficiency course schedule did not go out past spring,
>but it looks like they routinely hold a course in a city not too far
>from where I am based.
>
>Acting on the advice of you and others in this group, I plan on
>attending one of these courses by early summer.

It is certainly worth the effort. Usually two days of intensive class
room and flying. The instructors specialize in the Beech line and you
will pick up lots of pointers. In class you will probably find out a
lot of information on the Bo you wont hear any where else.

At Port Columbus I heard one radio transmission from an airliner
asking, "Where on earth did all these Bonanzas come from?"

We even had one Doctor and his son who had gone out and purchased a
new A36 in which they did their primary flight training. Now that is
learning in class. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

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