Avgas is cheap

[John Galban]

I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
$2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Ronald Gardner]

Kinda makes me wonder about what I was taught about refining. The better
the gas (avgas) the more it cost. However I guess you then need to factor
in the supply and demand quotient and with less GA flying and more and
more auto mileage I guess you get to a point where the prices will equal,
and this summer they are saying will actually go the other way. I
remember when I bought avgas for my '69 Hurst Olds because it needed it to
run right, not because it was cheap. Guess I may start driving it more.

Ron Gardner

John Galban wrote:

> I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
> On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
> unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
> $2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
> expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[G.R. Patterson III]

John Galban wrote:
>
> What's wrong with this picture?

You're just living in the wrong area. I just filled my truck today with $1.69
mogas. I filled my plane last week with $2.60 avgas.

Feel better now?

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[john smith]

Ronald Gardner wrote:
> Kinda makes me wonder about what I was taught about refining. The better
> the gas (avgas) the more it cost. However I guess you then need to factor
> in the supply and demand quotient and with less GA flying and more and
> more auto mileage I guess you get to a point where the prices will equal,
> and this summer they are saying will actually go the other way. I
> remember when I bought avgas for my '69 Hurst Olds because it needed it to
> run right, not because it was cheap. Guess I may start driving it more.

OPEC is reducing production in April.

[mikem]

Mid-grade Unleaded in SLC is $1.67; 100LL at SLCIA is $2.97

MikeM

[BTIZ]

last I checked.. avgas (100LL) at the local self serve pump was $2.54 a
gal.. and that was before auto gas jumped from $1.80 to $2.04. We'll see
what the local avgas pump says this weekend.

BT

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
> On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
> unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
> $2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
> expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Peter Duniho]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
> On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
> unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
> $2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
> expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.

Like the others said, you're just buying gas (both kinds) in the wrong
place.

Around here, I'm paying about $1.60+/gal for regular unleaded, and $3.50/gal
(that's no typo...three dollars, fifty cents) for 100LL.

Actually, the $3.50/gal was a bit of a shock...highest it'd been before was
about $2.90/gal and normally it's been lower. I had just gotten back from
being out of town for over a month, and hadn't bought 100LL in awhile. It's
time for me to start looking for better prices, even if they are at other
airports; I don't usually sweat too much over fuel prices for the plane,
since the gas is the least of my expenses, but especially after seeing what
others are paying, I'm just plain offended that's what gas costs at my
airport (KPAE in Everett, WA).

Pete

[Mike Rapoport]

A lot of FBOs only change their prices when they get a new load of fuel.
The price will probably be going up significantly when they do.

Mike
MU-2

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
> On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
> unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
> $2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
> expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Teacherjh]

>> Mid-grade Unleaded in SLC is $1.67

Mid grade is a tax on people who are bad at math.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Mark Mallory]

Peter Duniho wrote:
> Around here, I'm paying about $1.60+/gal for regular unleaded, and $3.50/gal
> (that's no typo...three dollars, fifty cents) for 100LL.

Not quite. Self-serve 100LL at PAE is $2.999, as of 8 pm this evening (2/26);
hasn't changed in at least two weeks.

> Actually, the $3.50/gal was a bit of a shock...highest it'd been before was
> about $2.90/gal and normally it's been lower. I had just gotten back from
> being out of town for over a month, and hadn't bought 100LL in awhile. It's
> time for me to start looking for better prices, even if they are at other
> airports;

Best I've found in the Puget Sound area is at 0S9 (Port Townsend): $2.559 as of
last monday (2/23).

> I don't usually sweat too much over fuel prices for the plane,
> since the gas is the least of my expenses,

Least of your expenses? Only if you hardly ever fly. (Perhaps if you logged a
bit more time in your airplane, and a bit less on your keyboard?... ;)

[Peter Duniho]

"Mark Mallory" > wrote in message
...
> > Around here, I'm paying about $1.60+/gal for regular unleaded, and
$3.50/gal
> > (that's no typo...three dollars, fifty cents) for 100LL.
>
> Not quite. Self-serve 100LL at PAE is $2.999, as of 8 pm this evening
(2/26);
> hasn't changed in at least two weeks.

What do you mean "not quite"? I have operational reasons for not using the
self-serve pumps. If I'm going to have to deal with a hot restart of the
engine, I might as well buy gas at an airport where it's significantly
cheaper.

$3.50/gal is my price. It's available cheaper at the airport, but at the
cost of added wear and tear on the engine, starter, and battery.

There's no "not quite" about it, thank you very much. $3.50/gal is what I
pay, which is exactly what I said.

> Least of your expenses? Only if you hardly ever fly.

You obviously have no clue about what I spend on maintenance, insurance, and
hangar. Those are by far the most significant portions of owning my
airplane, and I could fly triple the number of hours each year without
changing that.

How about you stick to making statements about things you actually know
about, and let the rest of us make statements about things WE know about
without you acting like you know better when you obviously don't.

Pete

[Kees Mies]

(John Galban) wrote in message >...
> I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
> On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
> unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
> $2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
> expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

As other posters mentioned prices can differ locally.
This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
And we have landing fees too, another sigh.

Kees.

[Cub Driver]

>$2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture?

Nothing's wrong with it. Your FBO just doesn't fill the tank very
often.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Dennis O'Connor]

Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed rebellion to cure
this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the American
Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...

OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of strangling gasoline
prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has fallen...
Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two generations,
three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless poverty with a
whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse the masses
with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power and then
Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a dictator/king...

Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA, also...
<sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and capitalism
these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of socialism has it
now doomed...
denny

"Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other posters
mentioned prices can differ locally.
> This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> And we have landing fees too, another sigh.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Our airport manager says he is letting the tanks go nearly to empty before
ordering another load, because he will have to raise the price significantly
once he does..
denny
"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> A lot of FBOs only change their prices when they get a new load of fuel.
> The price will probably be going up significantly when they do.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I took a day off today to spend some quality time with my airplane.
> > On the way to the airport I stopped to fill up my truck with $2.05/gal
> > unleaded. I got to the airport and topped off the plane with
> > $2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture? Kinda makes that
> > expensive autogas STC in my plane look rather silly.
> >
> > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
>

[Dennis O'Connor]

Dubya invaded the wrong country... SA is where we should be sitting...

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Ronald Gardner wrote:
> > Kinda makes me wonder about what I was taught about refining. The
better
> > the gas (avgas) the more it cost. However I guess you then need to
factor
> > in the supply and demand quotient and with less GA flying and more and
> > more auto mileage I guess you get to a point where the prices will
equal,
> > and this summer they are saying will actually go the other way. I
> > remember when I bought avgas for my '69 Hurst Olds because it needed it
to
> > run right, not because it was cheap. Guess I may start driving it more.
>
> OPEC is reducing production in April.
>

[Mike Rapoport]

Once you accept the fact that government is going to cost a certain amount
of money, you have to accept that there will be *some* kind of tax or fee.
IMO it is better to tax consumption than production because it leads to more
efficient use of the taxed resource. Personally I think European
governments are too large and provide too many services and hence tax too
much.

Mike
MU-2


"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed rebellion to
cure
> this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the American
> Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...
>
> OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of strangling
gasoline
> prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has fallen...
> Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two generations,
> three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless poverty with
a
> whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse the masses
> with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
> machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power and then
> Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a
dictator/king...
>
> Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA, also...
> <sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and capitalism
> these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of socialism has
it
> now doomed...
> denny
>
> "Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other posters
> mentioned prices can differ locally.
> > This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> > Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> > BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> > And we have landing fees too, another sigh.
>
>

[ASJ]

Cub Driver wrote:

>
>>$2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture?
>
> Nothing's wrong with it. Your FBO just doesn't fill the tank very
> often.
>

You mean I should get a load of gas while it's still $1.89 (C03-100ll)
around here?

Who pays over $2 for 100ll?? Geez.

-Andrew

--
Andrew Stanley-Jones | "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
EE, LongEz N87KJ | -- Walt Disney

[Rosspilot]

>Who pays over $2 for 100ll??

Currently best price around here (and you only get it self-serve, IF you are a
member of the local pilot's assn, AND you use a Phillips CC) is $2.45

That's why I love my autofuel STC.

www.Rosspilot.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> Our airport manager says he is letting the tanks go nearly to empty before
> ordering another load, because he will have to raise the price significantly
> once he does..

I don't think much of that logic. If he then buys a full load of gas at a higher
cost and the supplier lowers the price a few weeks later, he needs to charge
higher prices for quite some time before he sells enough to need to refill his
tanks. He runs the risk of pricing himself out of the market for a while. If I
were doing it, I would buy as little as possible while the supplier's prices
are high. And, yes, I have seen avgas prices go down as well as up.

Most of the airports in this area let the tanks go nearly dry because they get
price breaks for quantity purchases. I understand that there's a large discount
if you buy an entire trailer full at a time. Maybe that's what he's trying to
do.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

ASJ wrote:
>
> Who pays over $2 for 100ll?? Geez.

Everybody who buys it within a hundred miles or so of Old Bridge, NJ. I haven't
been further away than that in some time now.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Mike Rapoport]

If the FBO owner could forecast the future price of fuel accurately, he
wouldn't be running an FBO.

Mike
MU-2


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dennis O'Connor wrote:
> >
> > Our airport manager says he is letting the tanks go nearly to empty
before
> > ordering another load, because he will have to raise the price
significantly
> > once he does..
>
> I don't think much of that logic. If he then buys a full load of gas at a
higher
> cost and the supplier lowers the price a few weeks later, he needs to
charge
> higher prices for quite some time before he sells enough to need to refill
his
> tanks. He runs the risk of pricing himself out of the market for a while.
If I
> were doing it, I would buy as little as possible while the supplier's
prices
> are high. And, yes, I have seen avgas prices go down as well as up.
>
> Most of the airports in this area let the tanks go nearly dry because they
get
> price breaks for quantity purchases. I understand that there's a large
discount
> if you buy an entire trailer full at a time. Maybe that's what he's trying
to
> do.
>
> George Patterson
> A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way
that
> you look forward to the trip.

[mikem]

Teacherjh wrote:

>>>Mid-grade Unleaded in SLC is $1.67

> Mid grade is a tax on people who are bad at math.


Maybe for cars; my Peterson STC for both the Piper and the Skylane
mandates 86 min Octane which requires purchase of Mid grade...

MikeM
(wasn't born yesterday)
Skylane '1MM
Pacer '00Z

[G.R. Patterson III]

mikem wrote:
>
> Maybe for cars; my Peterson STC for both the Piper and the Skylane
> mandates 86 min Octane which requires purchase of Mid grade...

Is that pump octane, research, or motor? The minimum pump octane that I've seen
available in New Jersey is 87 octane.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[John Galban]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message >...
>
> Actually, the $3.50/gal was a bit of a shock...highest it'd been before was
> about $2.90/gal and normally it's been lower.

I've still got a lot of room to go before I reach the shock level on
avgas prices. Back in '99 I paid $3.75/gal in Deadhorse, Alaska.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Newps]

Actually it is 87.

mikem wrote:

>
>
> Teacherjh wrote:
>
>>>> Mid-grade Unleaded in SLC is $1.67
>
>
>> Mid grade is a tax on people who are bad at math.
>
>
>
> Maybe for cars; my Peterson STC for both the Piper and the Skylane
> mandates 86 min Octane which requires purchase of Mid grade...
>
> MikeM
> (wasn't born yesterday)
> Skylane '1MM
> Pacer '00Z
>

[Newps]

In high altitude areas like here in Montana the lowest octane rating is
85.5. Mid grade is 88 and the highest is 91.

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>
> mikem wrote:
>
>>Maybe for cars; my Peterson STC for both the Piper and the Skylane
>>mandates 86 min Octane which requires purchase of Mid grade...
>
>
> Is that pump octane, research, or motor? The minimum pump octane that I've seen
> available in New Jersey is 87 octane.
>
> George Patterson
> A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
> you look forward to the trip.

[Teacherjh]

>>
my Peterson STC for both the Piper and the Skylane
mandates 86 min Octane which requires purchase of Mid grade...
<<

You can't get that by mixing hi grade plus low grade in the proper proportions?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > Actually, the $3.50/gal was a bit of a shock...highest it'd been before
was
> > about $2.90/gal and normally it's been lower.
>
> I've still got a lot of room to go before I reach the shock level on
> avgas prices. Back in '99 I paid $3.75/gal in Deadhorse, Alaska.
>
According to Airnav, the US average is $2.62 with lows of $1.80 in Texas and
Iowa and highs in the $4.00 range in Massachusetts and New York.

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/greatdeals/pocket?type=1

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> > Actually, the $3.50/gal was a bit of a shock...highest it'd been before
was
> > about $2.90/gal and normally it's been lower.
>
> I've still got a lot of room to go before I reach the shock level on
> avgas prices. Back in '99 I paid $3.75/gal in Deadhorse, Alaska.
>

(Update)

According to Airnav, the US average is $2.62 with lows of $1.75 and highs in
the $4.13 range.

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html

[Julian Scarfe]

Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for 100LL.

About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.

That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John paid,
according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because the oil
companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism", don't
you?

Julian Scarfe


"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed rebellion to
cure
> this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the American
> Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...
>
> OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of strangling
gasoline
> prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has fallen...
> Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two generations,
> three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless poverty with
a
> whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse the masses
> with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
> machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power and then
> Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a
dictator/king...
>
> Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA, also...
> <sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and capitalism
> these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of socialism has
it
> now doomed...
> denny
>
> "Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other posters
> mentioned prices can differ locally.
> > This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> > Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> > BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> > And we have landing fees too, another sigh.
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for
100LL.
>
> About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
>
> That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John
paid,
> according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because the
oil
> companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism", don't
> you?

Oddly, our "capitalism" produces mogas at about $1.70 a gallon (with the
state and fed gub'mints taking about $0.35-0.40 of that) and out Avgas 100LL
at $2.62.

Sounds like your over-regulation, demanded by your populace, has bitten you
consumers in the ass. Se, we have dozens of companies in the Avgas business
and hundreds in the petrol business. How many do you have?

The UK hasn't been even remotely free market/capitalist in over 100 years.

You folks shot yourselves in the groin, so quit yer' bitching.

[Chris Hoffmann]

I don't know which I enjoy more out of this newsgroup - Jay's stories, or
Pete's logic, but here's another fine example of the latter. Classic.

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...

> There's no "not quite" about it, thank you very much. $3.50/gal is what I
> pay, which is exactly what I said.
>
> > Least of your expenses? Only if you hardly ever fly.
>
> You obviously have no clue about what I spend on maintenance, insurance,
and
> hangar. Those are by far the most significant portions of owning my
> airplane, and I could fly triple the number of hours each year without
> changing that.
>
> How about you stick to making statements about things you actually know
> about, and let the rest of us make statements about things WE know about
> without you acting like you know better when you obviously don't.
>
> Pete
>
>

[S Green]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> > Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for
> 100LL.
> >
> > About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> > About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
> >
> > That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John
> paid,
> > according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because the
> oil
> > companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism",
don't
> > you?
>
> Oddly, our "capitalism" produces mogas at about $1.70 a gallon (with the
> state and fed gub'mints taking about $0.35-0.40 of that) and out Avgas
100LL
> at $2.62.
>
> Sounds like your over-regulation, demanded by your populace, has bitten
you
> consumers in the ass. Se, we have dozens of companies in the Avgas
business
> and hundreds in the petrol business. How many do you have?
>
> The UK hasn't been even remotely free market/capitalist in over 100 years.
>
> You folks shot yourselves in the groin, so quit yer' bitching.

No problem, it gives us an excuse to go to the US and fly there.
And why not. There is so much to see. With the $ at nearly 2 to the £ its a
bargain and which is why the US will be the most popular tourist destination
for Brits this year despite the additional security restrictions.

The security is no problem either. Its still a bit ramshackled. Its
something we are used to and ours is probably better due to the many years
more experience of the task. Besides which nearly every Brit has a passport
and travels abroad at some time so it breeds a bit of tolerance.

As for me, it will be hour building somewhere this year where I can enjoy
the full experience what aviation in the US has to offer.

Even though the Federal authorities are making life more difficult you guys
are lucky. So appreciate it and enjoy it. Thousand of foreign pilots coming
to the US cannot be wrong.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:11:46 -0000, S Green wrote:

>No problem, it gives us an excuse to go to the US and fly there.
>And why not. There is so much to see. With the $ at nearly 2 to the £ its a
>bargain and which is why the US will be the most popular tourist destination
>for Brits this year despite the additional security restrictions.

very true.

in 2002 I had an expensive time (compared to today) in the US making the
PPL. Now it would be about 40% cheaper.

glad that I resisted buying a house or condo back then. Today I woud get
about 40% more house for the same money (or the same house for about half
the money - not factoring in appreciation).

For Americans it might make sense [1] to lend money in Euro or Swiss Franc
(even the Yen might be attractive). The exchange rate is high and interest
rate is low. It is expected that the exchange rate will change in favour of
the dollar, so let's assume that the Euro comes down to a 1:1 exchange rate
to the USD, then you will have gained 25% (or in other words: your debt
would be 25% less) only because of that. So you would be able to lend more
money, invest some of the borrowed money [2] and have an additional cut.
[note: this is no financial advise]

#m

[1] we here in Europe are lending about 30% or more of the money in foreign
currency - and this is not only the big companies, it is the family
building their house etc.
[2] assume an interest rate of 3% and stock value of 6% ... this will bring
you an additoional 3% of the invested money and helps you paying your
interest rate. combine this with a life insurance, calculate inflation and
the money is almost for free.

--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Tom Sixkiller]

"S Green" > wrote in message
...

> >
> > The UK hasn't been even remotely free market/capitalist in over 100
years.
> >
> > You folks shot yourselves in the groin, so quit yer' bitching.
>
> No problem, it gives us an excuse to go to the US and fly there.
> And why not. There is so much to see. With the $ at nearly 2 to the £ its
a
> bargain and which is why the US will be the most popular tourist
destination
> for Brits this year despite the additional security restrictions.

We'll be glad to take your money!! :~)

>
> The security is no problem either. Its still a bit ramshackled. Its
> something we are used to and ours is probably better due to the many years
> more experience of the task. Besides which nearly every Brit has a
passport
> and travels abroad at some time so it breeds a bit of tolerance.

With a geographic area the size of some of our mid-sized states (don't get
the Texan's started) you are a bit more cramped. Come on over and stretch
your legs a bit.


> As for me, it will be hour building somewhere this year where I can enjoy
> the full experience what aviation in the US has to offer.

The west has clear skies and lotf of room.

> Even though the Federal authorities are making life more difficult you
guys
> are lucky. So appreciate it and enjoy it.

....while we can. :~(

> Thousand of foreign pilots coming
> to the US cannot be wrong.

Several years ago, many doctors, engineers, physicists, etc., came...and
stayed. We're happy to have 'em, 'cept we can't understand them sometimes.
<SEG>

[G.R. Patterson III]

S Green wrote:
>
> Even though the Federal authorities are making life more difficult you guys
> are lucky. So appreciate it and enjoy it.

Most of us do. We're simply trying to keep it that way. Or make it better.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[S Green]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> S Green wrote:
> >
> > Even though the Federal authorities are making life more difficult you
guys
> > are lucky. So appreciate it and enjoy it.
>
> Most of us do. We're simply trying to keep it that way. Or make it better.

Regulation is like taxes. Goes on easy but almost impossible to remove,
especially when the powers that be always want to cover their asses.

[Mike Rapoport]

How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO markup is
much larger than the refining margin.

Mike
MU-2


"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for
100LL.
>
> About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
>
> That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John
paid,
> according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because the
oil
> companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism", don't
> you?
>
> Julian Scarfe
>
>
> "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed rebellion to
> cure
> > this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the American
> > Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...
> >
> > OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of strangling
> gasoline
> > prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has fallen...
> > Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two generations,
> > three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless poverty
with
> a
> > whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse the
masses
> > with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
> > machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power and
then
> > Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a
> dictator/king...
> >
> > Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA, also...
> > <sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and capitalism
> > these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of socialism
has
> it
> > now doomed...
> > denny
> >
> > "Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other posters
> > mentioned prices can differ locally.
> > > This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> > > Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> > > BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> > > And we have landing fees too, another sigh.
> >
> >
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
> How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO markup
is
> much larger than the refining margin.

And what other taxes/fees does it include?

Why do our capitalistic FBO's charge as little as $2.00-2.50 a gallon, whilr
Julian's charge $7.70?

WRT MoGas, the refiners do all the work and make about $0.12-0.18 a gallon,
while the states and feds make $0.38-0.45 a gallon (for a stroke of the
pen).

>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> > Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for
> 100LL.
> >
> > About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> > About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
> >
> > That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John
> paid,
> > according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because the
> oil
> > companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism",
don't
> > you?
> >
> > Julian Scarfe
> >
> >
> > "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed rebellion to
> > cure
> > > this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the American
> > > Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...
> > >
> > > OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of strangling
> > gasoline
> > > prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has
fallen...
> > > Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two
generations,
> > > three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless poverty
> with
> > a
> > > whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse the
> masses
> > > with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
> > > machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power and
> then
> > > Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a
> > dictator/king...
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA,
also...
> > > <sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and
capitalism
> > > these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of socialism
> has
> > it
> > > now doomed...
> > > denny
> > >
> > > "Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other posters
> > > mentioned prices can differ locally.
> > > > This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> > > > Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> > > > BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> > > > And we have landing fees too, another sigh.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Colin]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:

>
>
>ASJ wrote:
>>
>> Who pays over $2 for 100ll?? Geez.
>
>Everybody who buys it within a hundred miles or so of Old Bridge, NJ. I haven't
>been further away than that in some time now.
>
>George Patterson
> A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
> you look forward to the trip.

I was skiing in Vail,CO for the first two weeks of Feb, and thought
the $1.85 was a result of the remoteness. Alamo at DIA were charging
$1.45, did the price really go this mad in the last two weeks ??
Colin.

[Mike Rapoport]

I was only trying to dispell the idea that the oil company was making the
difference.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
markup
> is
> > much larger than the refining margin.
>
> And what other taxes/fees does it include?
>
> Why do our capitalistic FBO's charge as little as $2.00-2.50 a gallon,
whilr
> Julian's charge $7.70?
>
> WRT MoGas, the refiners do all the work and make about $0.12-0.18 a
gallon,
> while the states and feds make $0.38-0.45 a gallon (for a stroke of the
> pen).
>
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> >
> > "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> > news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> > > Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for
> > 100LL.
> > >
> > > About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> > > About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
> > >
> > > That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John
> > paid,
> > > according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because
the
> > oil
> > > companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism",
> don't
> > > you?
> > >
> > > Julian Scarfe
> > >
> > >
> > > "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed rebellion
to
> > > cure
> > > > this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the
American
> > > > Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...
> > > >
> > > > OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of strangling
> > > gasoline
> > > > prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has
> fallen...
> > > > Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two
> generations,
> > > > three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless poverty
> > with
> > > a
> > > > whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse the
> > masses
> > > > with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
> > > > machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power and
> > then
> > > > Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a
> > > dictator/king...
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA,
> also...
> > > > <sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and
> capitalism
> > > > these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of
socialism
> > has
> > > it
> > > > now doomed...
> > > > denny
> > > >
> > > > "Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other
posters
> > > > mentioned prices can differ locally.
> > > > > This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> > > > > Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> > > > > BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> > > > > And we have landing fees too, another sigh.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Colin wrote:
>
> I was skiing in Vail,CO for the first two weeks of Feb, and thought
> the $1.85 was a result of the remoteness. Alamo at DIA were charging
> $1.45, did the price really go this mad in the last two weeks ??

Avgas has been steadily going up for several years around here. It's been more
than $2/gallon at Old Bridge for at least two years now. If you pay by cash or
check, the price at Old Bridge is one of the more reasonable in the area within
50 miles or so.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> I was only trying to dispell the idea that the oil company was making the
> difference.
>

I realize that...I should have addressed the question to Julian, rather than
your response to him, since he's the one making the claim without knowing
the price breakdown.

>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
> markup
> > is
> > > much larger than the refining margin.
> >
> > And what other taxes/fees does it include?
> >
> > Why do our capitalistic FBO's charge as little as $2.00-2.50 a gallon,
> whilr
> > Julian's charge $7.70?
> >
> > WRT MoGas, the refiners do all the work and make about $0.12-0.18 a
> gallon,
> > while the states and feds make $0.38-0.45 a gallon (for a stroke of the
> > pen).
> >
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > >
> > > "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> > > news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> > > > Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon
for
> > > 100LL.
> > > >
> > > > About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> > > > About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
> > > >
> > > > That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price
John
> > > paid,
> > > > according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because
> the
> > > oil
> > > > companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism",
> > don't
> > > > you?
> > > >
> > > > Julian Scarfe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Kees, have you folks ever thought about a bit of an armed
rebellion
> to
> > > > cure
> > > > > this? It does tend to work - reference the secession of the
> American
> > > > > Colonies from Great Britain, circa 1770's for details on how...
> > > > >
> > > > > OK - pulling my tongue out of my cheek - your example of
strangling
> > > > gasoline
> > > > > prices is is exactly why the "isms" all fail... Communism has
> > fallen...
> > > > > Socialism in Europe will survive perhaps another one or two
> > generations,
> > > > > three at the most, and you then either collapse into endless
poverty
> > > with
> > > > a
> > > > > whimper or another Strong Man will take center stage and arouse
the
> > > masses
> > > > > with bellowing about enemies to the east, enemies to the west, the
> > > > > machinations of jews/capitalists/catholics/etc., and seize power
and
> > > then
> > > > > Europe will be back in the grip of it's historic leader, a
> > > > dictator/king...
> > > > >
> > > > > Unfortunately, the disease of socialism is spreading in the USA,
> > also...
> > > > > <sigh> It has been a glorious ride, this mix of democracy and
> > capitalism
> > > > > these past 231 years... It is a shame to seethat the rot of
> socialism
> > > has
> > > > it
> > > > > now doomed...
> > > > > denny
> > > > >
> > > > > "Kees Mies" > wrote in message > As other
> posters
> > > > > mentioned prices can differ locally.
> > > > > > This morning I filled my van for $5.34/gallon unleaded.
> > > > > > Last time, about a month ago, I bought 100LL for $8.83/gallon.
> > > > > > BTW, this is the Netherlands, sigh.
> > > > > > And we have landing fees too, another sigh.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Julian Scarfe]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
> How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO markup
is
> much larger than the refining margin.

I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point is simply
that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up prices.

Julian

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
markup
> is
> > much larger than the refining margin.
>
> I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point is
simply
> that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up prices.
>
Not to mention the tax man.

[Mike Rapoport]

In the US it is common for FBOs to mark up fuel $1-2 and sometimes even more
at the large airports.

Mike
MU-2

"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
markup
> is
> > much larger than the refining margin.
>
> I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point is
simply
> that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up prices.
>
> Julian
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

ASJ > wrote in message >...
> Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >
> >>$2.06/gal 100LL. What's wrong with this picture?
> >
> > Nothing's wrong with it. Your FBO just doesn't fill the tank very
> > often.
> >
>
> You mean I should get a load of gas while it's still $1.89 (C03-100ll)
> around here?

We have an airport near Sacramento that only gets a load of gas every
couple months. As a result their prices are sometimes WAY less than
everyone else. People will fly in to buy gas there.
>
> Who pays over $2 for 100ll?? Geez.

At the larger airports I've never paid less than $3. I think I paid
$3.20 at ABQ last time I was there. SBA is usually worse than that.
TUS is strangely not expensive though...


-Robert

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> In the US it is common for FBOs to mark up fuel $1-2 and sometimes even
more
> at the large airports.
>
Kinder like other merchants in high-rent district.

Look at AirNav sometime when you do a search for "Fuel prices in the
Area" -- within 50 miles of one airport, fuel can go from $1.80 a gallon all
the way to $3.50. Denver area, for example -- DIA to FTG is only 5 miles but
fuel is nearly double. Of course, the rent at DIA is _substantially higher_
(and APA as well) than FTG.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> >
> > Who pays over $2 for 100ll?? Geez.
>
> At the larger airports I've never paid less than $3. I think I paid
> $3.20 at ABQ last time I was there. SBA is usually worse than that.
> TUS is strangely not expensive though...

DIA and APA near Denver are well over $3.00, but COS (Colo Springs) is well
below $2 (for Jet-A).

[Paul Sengupta]

Only one thing, one of the most socialist countries in Europe,
Sweden, has avgas at 4.5 Skr a litre, about $2.25 per USG.

Renting a plane's quite cheap there too, when I was out there
it was cheaper than the US. Now I'm not sure as the $ to £ is
quite high. No landing fees (well, you buy a yearly card...all club
aircraft have it) and less controlled airspace than the US. And
they allow you to fly wherever you like over Stockholm at 2000ft
as long as you move out of the way a bit when there's an arrival
at Bromma airport. (only the royal palace at Drottningholm has a
small area of restricted airspace)

Paul

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
> Oddly, our "capitalism" produces mogas at about $1.70 a gallon (with the
> state and fed gub'mints taking about $0.35-0.40 of that) and out Avgas
100LL
> at $2.62.

[Paul Sengupta]

I was under the impression that avgas was about 50% tax overall
here in the UK. Car petrol is around 80% tax.

Also it's not just because the oil companies can get away with it,
it's used in far smaller quantities over here, to the point where the
oil companies are thinking it's not worth the bother.

Paul

"Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
news:zr60c.605$GQ.303@newsfe1-win...
> Interesting. Here in the UK, we're paying about $7.70 per gallon for
100LL.
>
> About $1.15 is sales tax levied on almost all goods.
> About $2.00 is the excise duty on Avgas.
>
> That leaves $4.55 per gallon, which is more than twice the price John
paid,
> according to his original post. Why is the price so high? Because the
oil
> companies can get away with it. I think you call that "capitalism", don't
> you?

[Paul Sengupta]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
> markup
> > is
> > > much larger than the refining margin.
> >
> > I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point is
> simply
> > that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up prices.
> >
> Not to mention the tax man.

The point was the difference in cost after you take away the tax.

Paul

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> > news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > link.net...
> > > > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
> > markup
> > > is
> > > > much larger than the refining margin.
> > >
> > > I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point is
> > simply
> > > that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up prices.
> > >
> > Not to mention the tax man.
>
> The point was the difference in cost after you take away the tax.
>
Which was never clarified. The point being that, according to Julian, under
UK capitalism, gas was $7 something a gallon, but under US capitalism it's
about $2.50-3.00.

Now, how much do various FBO's pay in rent to the government authority in
charge of their airport? Any one know? Julian speculated on various reasons
for the pump price, but never (that I saw...I don't read EVERY post) took
into account the OVERHEAD costs of the FBO.

For example, an FBO at an airport near Denver sells avgas for $2.00 a
gallon. He's the only FBO on the airport. OTOH, just a few miles away at DIA
or APA, there are three each FBO's and they sell gas for $3.25 to $3.75 a
gallon. What do you want to bet that the FBO's are DIA and APA pay more in
rent/fees every year that the off airport FBO's entire operation is worth.

A few years ago AmericaWest Airlines closed their little souvenir shop in
Denver's airport (the old one, not the new one) because the rent for a 20x40
foot shop was $10,000 a month. What do you think the airport authority (a
government office) charges for an FBO and all the nice fuel trucks, storage
tanks....

Governments love to hide both fees and palmgrease to deflect attention for
themselves and heap it on others. Look at your phone or cell phone bill
sometime. This is very pertinent to your other post about Sweden (whose
economy was heading for the tank faster then the US until they started to
put the brakes on their welfare state a few years back).

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> Only one thing, one of the most socialist countries in Europe,
> Sweden, has avgas at 4.5 Skr a litre, about $2.25 per USG.

Sweden subsides that part, taxes other things -- it all balances out in the
end.
>
> Renting a plane's quite cheap there too, when I was out there
> it was cheaper than the US. Now I'm not sure as the $ to £ is
> quite high. No landing fees (well, you buy a yearly card...all club
> aircraft have it) and less controlled airspace than the US. And
> they allow you to fly wherever you like over Stockholm at 2000ft
> as long as you move out of the way a bit when there's an arrival
> at Bromma airport. (only the royal palace at Drottningholm has a
> small area of restricted airspace)

As above.

[Marcus Andersson]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message >...
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Only one thing, one of the most socialist countries in Europe,
> > Sweden, has avgas at 4.5 Skr a litre, about $2.25 per USG.
>
> Sweden subsides that part, taxes other things -- it all balances out in the
> end.

er... the price is that high because it it taxed... how can you claim
that something is subsidised when it is actually the other way around?
Just because other things are taxed even higher...

> > Renting a plane's quite cheap there too, when I was out there
> > it was cheaper than the US. Now I'm not sure as the $ to £ is
> > quite high. No landing fees (well, you buy a yearly card...all club
> > aircraft have it) and less controlled airspace than the US. And
> > they allow you to fly wherever you like over Stockholm at 2000ft
> > as long as you move out of the way a bit when there's an arrival
> > at Bromma airport. (only the royal palace at Drottningholm has a
> > small area of restricted airspace)
>
> As above.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Marcus Andersson" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message
> > ...
> > > Only one thing, one of the most socialist countries in Europe,
> > > Sweden, has avgas at 4.5 Skr a litre, about $2.25 per USG.
> >
> > Sweden subsides that part, taxes other things -- it all balances out in
the
> > end.
>
> er... the price is that high because it it taxed... how can you claim
> that something is subsidised when it is actually the other way around?
> Just because other things are taxed even higher...

You can say it's subsidised in the same way as it is in the US.
Swings and roundabouts.

Wish it was subsidised like that in the UK. How much tax revenue
would the UK government lose by removing the tax from avgas?
Why is there so much tax on avgas and not on avtur?

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> > > news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > link.net...
> > > > > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the FBO
> > > markup
> > > > is
> > > > > much larger than the refining margin.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point
is
> > > simply
> > > > that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up
prices.
> > > >
> > > Not to mention the tax man.
> >
> > The point was the difference in cost after you take away the tax.
> >
> Which was never clarified.

This was the "$4.55" which was worked out that a gallon of avgas
costs here in the UK after removing the tax. I was under the impression
that about 50% was tax, which would make about half of our $6.57
per US gallon the cost of the fuel or $3.29. That doesn't seem so
different the some of the costs in the US.

> The point being that, according to Julian, under
> UK capitalism, gas was $7 something a gallon, but under US capitalism it's
> about $2.50-3.00.

The point was the cost after tax. We know it's highly taxed,
it's the underlying cost difference that was the point. How much is
seller margin, how much is oil company revenue, which is what you
reply to below.

> Now, how much do various FBO's pay in rent to the government authority in
> charge of their airport? Any one know? Julian speculated on various
reasons
> for the pump price, but never (that I saw...I don't read EVERY post) took
> into account the OVERHEAD costs of the FBO.

Well, the airports are private concerns over here, not government owned
but it's the same point, how much they have to spend in overheads.
The larger airports charge large rents to the clubs, the smaller ones could
all be part of one concern, so parking/hangarage, landing fees and selling
fuel is what keeps the airfield going. Some places here try to attract
people
in by selling the fuel as cheap as they can, but there isn't a huge
difference
generally, maybe between £0.92 and £0.96 a litre in the places I buy my
fuel. I know other places charge over £1 a litre, but I haven't been to
one of those places.

> Governments love to hide both fees and palmgrease to deflect attention for
> themselves and heap it on others.

Indeed. Stealth taxes.

> This is very pertinent to your other post about Sweden (whose
> economy was heading for the tank faster then the US until they started to
> put the brakes on their welfare state a few years back).

Income tax is still very high in Sweden. It's still very much a
welfare state.

Paul

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
>
> You can say it's subsidised in the same way as it is in the US.
> Swings and roundabouts.
>
> Wish it was subsidised like that in the UK. How much tax revenue
> would the UK government lose by removing the tax from avgas?

Well, what is the total tax on avgas? Does anyone there know? The entire
situation is so convoluted (deliberatly I suspect) with inflows and
outflows, that it's beyond comprehension.

> Why is there so much tax on avgas and not on avtur?

Because politicians everywhere like to spend other peoples money.

In the US for auto fuel, the oil producers, over a three year average, make
about $0.12 a gallon in profit. Much of that goes into the next rounds of
exploration, shareholders dividends, etc. The Federal and various state
governments collect taxes of $0.38 to $0.45 a gallon. If the corporation
pays taxes on profits, the governments collect even more. Our average price
over the past three years was about $1.60-$1.75 a gallon. IOW, governments
make three times as much money with the stroke of a pen, good market or bad,
rain or shine, as the people that do all the work

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> > > > news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> > > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > > link.net...
> > > > > > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the
FBO
> > > > markup
> > > > > is
> > > > > > much larger than the refining margin.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point
> is
> > > > simply
> > > > > that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up
> prices.
> > > > >
> > > > Not to mention the tax man.
> > >
> > > The point was the difference in cost after you take away the tax.
> > >
> > Which was never clarified.
>
> This was the "$4.55" which was worked out that a gallon of avgas
> costs here in the UK after removing the tax. I was under the impression
> that about 50% was tax, which would make about half of our $6.57
> per US gallon the cost of the fuel or $3.29. That doesn't seem so
> different the some of the costs in the US.

The US average right now is $2.63 and runs from about $1.85 up to around
$4.00 at the hoity toidy FBO's.

http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html - naturally, Alaska is rather high
time time of year; they have to melt the fuel before they can pump it. :~)

>
> > The point being that, according to Julian, under
> > UK capitalism, gas was $7 something a gallon, but under US capitalism
it's
> > about $2.50-3.00.
>
> The point was the cost after tax. We know it's highly taxed,
> it's the underlying cost difference that was the point. How much is
> seller margin, how much is oil company revenue, which is what you
> reply to below.
>
> > Now, how much do various FBO's pay in rent to the government authority
in
> > charge of their airport? Any one know? Julian speculated on various
> reasons
> > for the pump price, but never (that I saw...I don't read EVERY post)
took
> > into account the OVERHEAD costs of the FBO.
>
> Well, the airports are private concerns over here, not government owned
> but it's the same point, how much they have to spend in overheads.

Here very few airports that sell fuel are privately owned. FBO's then must
pay all their normal overhead plus rent and other fees. They miss out on
direct property taxes and acquisition costs, but government has no incentive
to monitor and minimize costs, something a "for profit" firm must do. OTOH,
government can acquire land for an airport under our rule of "eminant
domain", something a private firm can;t do unless they have good political
connections (Wal-Mart, for example, or sports franchise owners).


> The larger airports charge large rents to the clubs, the smaller ones
could
> all be part of one concern, so parking/hangarage, landing fees and selling
> fuel is what keeps the airfield going. Some places here try to attract
> people
> in by selling the fuel as cheap as they can, but there isn't a huge
> difference
> generally, maybe between £0.92 and £0.96 a litre in the places I buy my
> fuel. I know other places charge over £1 a litre, but I haven't been to
> one of those places.
>
> > Governments love to hide both fees and palmgrease to deflect attention
for
> > themselves and heap it on others.
>
> Indeed. Stealth taxes.
>
> > This is very pertinent to your other post about Sweden (whose
> > economy was heading for the tank faster then the US until they started
to
> > put the brakes on their welfare state a few years back).
>
> Income tax is still very high in Sweden. It's still very much a
> welfare state.

I don't know what it is today, but just a few years ago their prime lending
rate was some ungodly figure like 35%.

[Skyking]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message >...
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in
> message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Julian Scarfe" > wrote in message
> > > > > news:DZX0c.2199$GQ.2184@newsfe1-win...
> > > > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > > > link.net...
> > > > > > > How much of that $4.55 is the FBO making? Here in the US, the
> FBO
> markup
> is
> > > > > > > much larger than the refining margin.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know. I imagine it's not much. But either way, the point
> is
> simply
> > > > > > that the much smaller aviation market here for Avgas drives up
> prices.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Not to mention the tax man.
> > > >
> > > > The point was the difference in cost after you take away the tax.
> > > >
> > > Which was never clarified.
> >
> > This was the "$4.55" which was worked out that a gallon of avgas
> > costs here in the UK after removing the tax. I was under the impression
> > that about 50% was tax, which would make about half of our $6.57
> > per US gallon the cost of the fuel or $3.29. That doesn't seem so
> > different the some of the costs in the US.
>
> The US average right now is $2.63 and runs from about $1.85 up to around
> $4.00 at the hoity toidy FBO's.
>
> http://www.airnav.com/fuel/report.html - naturally, Alaska is rather high
> time time of year; they have to melt the fuel before they can pump it. :~)
>
> >
> > > The point being that, according to Julian, under
> > > UK capitalism, gas was $7 something a gallon, but under US capitalism
> it's
> > > about $2.50-3.00.
> >
> > The point was the cost after tax. We know it's highly taxed,
> > it's the underlying cost difference that was the point. How much is
> > seller margin, how much is oil company revenue, which is what you
> > reply to below.
> >
> > > Now, how much do various FBO's pay in rent to the government authority
> in
> > > charge of their airport? Any one know? Julian speculated on various
> reasons
> > > for the pump price, but never (that I saw...I don't read EVERY post)
> took
> > > into account the OVERHEAD costs of the FBO.
> >
> > Well, the airports are private concerns over here, not government owned
> > but it's the same point, how much they have to spend in overheads.
>
> Here very few airports that sell fuel are privately owned. FBO's then must
> pay all their normal overhead plus rent and other fees. They miss out on
> direct property taxes and acquisition costs, but government has no incentive
> to monitor and minimize costs, something a "for profit" firm must do. OTOH,
> government can acquire land for an airport under our rule of "eminant
> domain", something a private firm can;t do unless they have good political
> connections (Wal-Mart, for example, or sports franchise owners).
>
>
> > The larger airports charge large rents to the clubs, the smaller ones
> could
> > all be part of one concern, so parking/hangarage, landing fees and selling
> > fuel is what keeps the airfield going. Some places here try to attract
> > people
> > in by selling the fuel as cheap as they can, but there isn't a huge
> > difference
> > generally, maybe between £0.92 and £0.96 a litre in the places I buy my
> > fuel. I know other places charge over £1 a litre, but I haven't been to
> > one of those places.
> >
100LL is $2.34 a gallon at Durango, CO.

Skyking

[[email protected]]

Paul Sengupta > wrote:
> I was under the impression that avgas was about 50% tax overall
> here in the UK. Car petrol is around 80% tax.

> Also it's not just because the oil companies can get away with it,
> it's used in far smaller quantities over here, to the point where the
> oil companies are thinking it's not worth the bother.

> Paul

Last I heared all UK AVGAS is imported from continental refineries
due to the fact that it's "not worth the bother".
See the following link for how much agas the UK burns:
http://www.gaac.co.uk/news/detr_consultation.htm


Kevin Jones

[N7155A]

At my airport they are currently at $2.20

My understanding/guess is:
Avgas bulk price: 1.55
Fixed cost of tank/pumps 0.15
Mark up 0.50
Total 2.20

When they buy new gas, I expect the price will go up accordingly.

BTW, they've been talking about charging 50 cents/gal flow fee for my
5 gal autofuel cans.

Mitch


"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> In the US it is common for FBOs to mark up fuel $1-2 and sometimes even more
> at the large airports.
>
> Mike
> MU-2

[Tom Sixkiller]

"N7155A" > wrote in message
om...
> At my airport they are currently at $2.20
>
> My understanding/guess is:
> Avgas bulk price: 1.55
> Fixed cost of tank/pumps 0.15
> Mark up 0.50
> Total 2.20
>
> When they buy new gas, I expect the price will go up accordingly.

If the price is going up, they have to build a cash reserve ahead of time,
so expect the price to go up for fuel that is already in the tank.