So you got your PP-ASES, Now what?

[CFLav8r]

There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack Brown's
Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the website
I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
I've come up with a small problem though...
Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
seaplane?

David (KORL)

[Brad Z]

Most do the rating for fun, as well as counting for a BFR. unfortunately,
its pretty much useless, because few seaplane outfits will allow their
planes to be soloed. The ones that do rent require minimums well above the
number of hours required to complete the training and checkride.

"CFLav8r" > wrote in message
. com...
> There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack Brown's
> Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the
website
> I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
> I've come up with a small problem though...
> Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
> seaplane?
>
> David (KORL)
>
>

[Bob Gardner]

Unless you can buy your own float plane/amphibian, save your money. Chances
of renting are slim at best.

Bob Gardner

"CFLav8r" > wrote in message
. com...
> There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack Brown's
> Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the
website
> I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
> I've come up with a small problem though...
> Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
> seaplane?
>
> David (KORL)
>
>

[Michael]

"CFLav8r" > wrote
> There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack Brown's
> Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the website
> I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
> I've come up with a small problem though...
> Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
> seaplane?

Nowhere, near as I can tell. I've looked, I've made phone calls, and
nothing ever happened.

The insurance companies have figured out long ago that there is a huge
disconnect between being able to pass the seaplane checkride and
actually knowing how to operate a seaplane.

When you get a rating or endorsement (any rating or endorsement -
tailsheel, seaplane, multiengine, whatever) from a place that won't
rent you the aircraft solo, there's a statement being made. The
statement is this - we're going to teach you to pass a checkride, not
to operate the aircraft safely. We (or our insurers) are fully aware
of this.

Michael

[Peter Duniho]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
> The insurance companies have figured out long ago that there is a huge
> disconnect between being able to pass the seaplane checkride and
> actually knowing how to operate a seaplane.

That's simply not true. What they have figured out is that, regardless of
pilot experience, losses are higher for seaplane operations than for
landplane operations. Even a pilot with 500 hours of time in type, for
example, will still have a MUCH higher insurance premium in a seaplane than
in an otherwise comparable landplane. Rates four or five times those found
for landplanes are typical.

Certainly a pilot who's just received their seaplane rating has a lot to
learn yet, just as a pilot who's just received their Private certificate
does. But just as a pilot who has just received their Private certificate
is still insurable, so too could the pilot be who's just received their
seaplane rating.

The real issue is the underlying difference between insuring a seaplane and
a landplane, regardless of pilot experience. Yes, newer pilots are
considered a greater insurance risk, but the real problem is that the
difference is so much greater for seaplanes cost-wise, because the same
percentage surcharge for new pilots (which might only be in the 10-20%
range, depending on policy) amounts to a much larger total cash cost.

Combine that with the other problems seaplane operators have -- if you think
it's hard to make a living with landplanes, go try to start up a new
seaplane business -- and the relatively low participation rate, and it's
just not worth the trouble. Besides, pilots have demonstrated a strong
willingness to obtain their seaplane rating "just for the fun of it" anyway;
there's little economic incentive to provide after-training rentals, since
the cash cow doesn't rely on it.

> [...] The
> statement is this - we're going to teach you to pass a checkride, not
> to operate the aircraft safely.

Your pitiful anti-FAA bias is showing again. There's no question a pilot
new to a particular kind of flying is generally not going to be as qualified
as one who has more experience. But to claim that new seaplane pilots
aren't qualified to operate the airplane at all is just plain stupid.
Examiners aren't going around just rubber-stamping applications...for the
most part, if the pilot passes the checkride, that really means something,
and it means that -- as with other ratings -- they now have a license to
learn more about that type of flying, but that they are absolutely qualified
in the fundamentals.

This is no different than pilots who have just received their Private,
Instrument, Multi, etc. They are all higher risks, but that isn't to say
that they are not insurable, nor is it to say that they are not qualified.
It's idiotic to claim that it is.

Pete

[MRQB]

The place up here in Seattle area if you get your rating through them they
will rent to you but they have min hull coverage some ware at about $200,000
on insurance unless you have 250 hours TT PIC or 50 hours PIC in a seaplane.
Check with ware you get your rating at and see if they will let you rent
after getting your rating expect the costs of the rating to be more then
normal because most insurance company's require 10 hours instruction.

I decided not to do my seaplane rating due the insurance premium was way to
high + the rental fees were twice the rate of land idd rather go rotocraft
if i am going to spend that type of money. I figure 3 years of insurance
would pay for the rotocraft training.


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:Ed40c.140384$jk2.567144@attbi_s53...
> Unless you can buy your own float plane/amphibian, save your money.
Chances
> of renting are slim at best.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "CFLav8r" > wrote in message
> . com...
> > There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack
Brown's
> > Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the
> website
> > I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
> > I've come up with a small problem though...
> > Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
> > seaplane?
> >
> > David (KORL)
> >
> >
>
>

[RM]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> "CFLav8r" > wrote
> > There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack Brown's
> > Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the website
> > I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
> > I've come up with a small problem though...
> > Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
> > seaplane?
>
> Nowhere, near as I can tell. I've looked, I've made phone calls, and
> nothing ever happened.

Unfortunately true, unless you make some contact with an individual who
has an airplane for rent.

The Seaplane Pilots Association has an online data base at
http://www.seaplanes.org

Every one of the listed schools in Florida offers dual only. There are a
handful of operators in the USA that will allow some seaplane rentals,
but none in Florida.

I knew this before getting the rating and still consider it money if
not well spent, then at least not as wasted as other things I've done.
I'd do it again, even though I have not been inside of a seaplane since
doing the quicky course. In fact, I might do it again, as one of the
refresher courses, still knowing full well that no one will ever rent
me a seaplane.

Truth is, splashing down into a pond rates up there with first solo as
for just plane (pun intended) fun.

[Robert M. Gary]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> "CFLav8r" > wrote
> > There was a thread here about getting your Seaplane rating at Jack Brown's
> > Seaplane school in Winter Haven, Florida and after checking out the website
> > I am now hooked on the idea of getting the rating.
> > I've come up with a small problem though...
> > Where in Central Florida would a seaplane rated pilot be able to rent a
> > seaplane?
>
> Nowhere, near as I can tell. I've looked, I've made phone calls, and
> nothing ever happened.
>
> The insurance companies have figured out long ago that there is a huge
> disconnect between being able to pass the seaplane checkride and
> actually knowing how to operate a seaplane.

I think the insurance co's just figured out the sea claims are more
frequent regardless of the amount of pilot time. A sea plane is landed
on an unknown surface. As good as you say you are at checking the
water you can always miss a log or some crap floating around in there.
Compare that with landing on a runway (we were assume crap is allowed
to accumulate).

-Robert, ASES

[Michael]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote
> I think the insurance co's just figured out the sea claims are more
> frequent regardless of the amount of pilot time.

No doubt. The same is true for lots of other kinds of aircraft -
twins and taildraggers immediately come to mind. But they're all
insurable - and so are seaplanes. It just costs more. Two otherwise
identical airplanes - the Pacer and TriPacer - will have a 50%
difference in the insurance rate even with experienced tailwheel
pilots, and with a low time pilot the rate is more than double on the
taildragger. Up North, where seaplanes are actually used routinely,
rentals are available - they're just too far for me. There are also
lots of places that will get you a tailwheel endorsement or a multi
rating - but won't rent you the plane solo. Their reason is always
insurance, and it really is the truth - solo insurance would increase
the cost.

The operations that will rent you the plane after getting the
endorsement/rating are invariably more expensive per hour - even with
the best of instruction, the loss rate for low time pilots is going to
be high on a Baron or a Cub (be it on floats or wheels) and the
insurance reflects this. I've also noticed that more hours are
generally required - you may be able to squeak someone through a multi
ride in 4-7 hours, but you're not going to train the vast majority of
pilots to proficiency in that amount of time. The reality is that it
takes 15-25 hours, depending on prior experience and aptitude, to
become proficient in a twin.

I'm not a seaplane pilot, so it's impossible for me to asess the
skills of seaplane pilots. However, I am a reasonably experienced
multiengine pilot and I can pretty readily asess the skills of
multiengine pilots. In my experience there is a HUGE difference
between those who JUST got the rating at a place that won't rent you
the plane (ATP immediately comes to mind) and those who JUST got the
rating at a place that will. I also see the same trend in tailwheel
proficiency. Sure, if you get enough experience, in the end it won't
matter much - but unless you buy your own plane and operate it
uninsured, that won't be happening. In order to become insurable -
meaning adequately proficient in the eyes of people who somewhat know
what they are doing, not the FAA - more training will be required.

The reality is that the operator who is going to rent you the plane
solo is going to train you to proficiency - he doesn't want you to
have an accident when you go off on your own. Thus he is going to
maintain a higher quality of instruction and higher standards. The
operator who is offering a rating, especially one with a guaranteed
price, has already decided not to carry solo insurance to cut the
cost. You better believe he will further cut the costs by doing only
the minimum necessary to get you through the checkride. Unless you
need it for professional reasons, I just can't see the point of
getting a rating like that.

Michael

[G.R. Patterson III]

Michael wrote:
>
> Two otherwise
> identical airplanes - the Pacer and TriPacer - will have a 50%
> difference in the insurance rate even with experienced tailwheel
> pilots,

Interesting. The difference is about 15% between the Maule MX-7-160 and the
MXT-7-160 (also two otherwise identical airplanes).

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.