Thunderbird Crash Footage

[Jay Honeck]

Many thanks to this group's own John Osterhout for forwarding me these cool
videos of the Thunderbirds crash from last fall:
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm

There are two separate videos -- one shot from inside the cockpit (that many
of us have seen, but is still remarkable) -- and one taken by a spectator
that I'd never seen before. It shows the entire event from start to horrible
finish.

Having seen the T-Birds do their show dozens of times, flawlessly, it's
still hard to believe that they made such a simple mistake. (The final
judgment was that the pilot had set his altimeter incorrectly, resulting in
insufficient altitude for the maneuver.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Toks Desalu]

The pilot survived, right?


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:_HO0c.450298$na.1090802@attbi_s04...
> Many thanks to this group's own John Osterhout for forwarding me these
cool
> videos of the Thunderbirds crash from last fall:
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm
>
> There are two separate videos -- one shot from inside the cockpit (that
many
> of us have seen, but is still remarkable) -- and one taken by a spectator
> that I'd never seen before. It shows the entire event from start to
horrible
> finish.
>
> Having seen the T-Birds do their show dozens of times, flawlessly, it's
> still hard to believe that they made such a simple mistake. (The final
> judgment was that the pilot had set his altimeter incorrectly, resulting
in
> insufficient altitude for the maneuver.)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> The pilot survived, right?

His health is fine.

His career, I sadly suspect, is not.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[B.H. Lazard]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:DJQ0c.13888$ko6.201585@attbi_s02...
> > The pilot survived, right?
>
> His health is fine.
>
> His career, I sadly suspect, is not.

Why do you call it a "horrible finish". Nobody got hurt and we got to see a
cool ejection sequence!!

The moral of the story here is that ANY pilot can make a relatively SIMPLE
mistake.

[Jay Honeck]

> Why do you call it a "horrible finish". Nobody got hurt and we got to see
a
> cool ejection sequence!!

You forgot the little smiley thingy. :-)

But assuming you're not joking, for a moment, there a zillion reasons to
call it a horrible finish. Hell, just from a taxpayer's standpoint I'm
****ed that we're out $20 million because the guy couldn't set his altimeter
correctly.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[B.H. Lazard]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iMR0c.452166$na.1092261@attbi_s04...
> > Why do you call it a "horrible finish". Nobody got hurt and we got to
see
> a
> > cool ejection sequence!!
>
> You forgot the little smiley thingy. :-)
>
> But assuming you're not joking, for a moment, there a zillion reasons to
> call it a horrible finish. Hell, just from a taxpayer's standpoint I'm
> ****ed that we're out $20 million because the guy couldn't set his
altimeter
> correctly.

I am not perturbed by a pilot making an honest mistake and wasting a $20
million airplane. That's a cost of 8 cents per person. There are a bunch of
thieves running the country, deliberately giving your money to corporate
interests. Now THAT is something to be worried about.

[Peter Gottlieb]

"B.H. Lazard" > wrote in message
news:hiS0c.160995$uV3.709916@attbi_s51...
> I am not perturbed by a pilot making an honest mistake and wasting a $20
> million airplane. That's a cost of 8 cents per person. There are a bunch
of
> thieves running the country, deliberately giving your money to corporate
> interests. Now THAT is something to be worried about.

Oh, but the sheeple love those thieves, maybe because they talk about God,
or because they say they are "conservative" or whatever. In the meanwhile,
both major parties seem to be racing to outdo each other in restricting our
GA and other rights.

[Dean Wilkinson]

If you think the videos are something you should have seen it first
hand like I did... very surreal to see it happen when you aren't
expecting it.

Dean

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<_HO0c.450298$na.1090802@attbi_s04>...
> Many thanks to this group's own John Osterhout for forwarding me these cool
> videos of the Thunderbirds crash from last fall:
> http://www.alexisparkinn.com/aviation_videos.htm
>
> There are two separate videos -- one shot from inside the cockpit (that many
> of us have seen, but is still remarkable) -- and one taken by a spectator
> that I'd never seen before. It shows the entire event from start to horrible
> finish.
>
> Having seen the T-Birds do their show dozens of times, flawlessly, it's
> still hard to believe that they made such a simple mistake. (The final
> judgment was that the pilot had set his altimeter incorrectly, resulting in
> insufficient altitude for the maneuver.)

[Jay Honeck]

> If you think the videos are something you should have seen it first
> hand like I did... very surreal to see it happen when you aren't
> expecting it.

That describes a plane crash pretty well.

I witnessed a fatal crash at an airshow ten years ago, (the "stolen Piper
Cub" routine gone very, very wrong) and it STILL seems surreal in my memory.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[C J Campbell]

"B.H. Lazard" > wrote in message
news:hiS0c.160995$uV3.709916@attbi_s51...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:iMR0c.452166$na.1092261@attbi_s04...
> > > Why do you call it a "horrible finish". Nobody got hurt and we got to
> see
> > a
> > > cool ejection sequence!!
> >
> > You forgot the little smiley thingy. :-)
> >
> > But assuming you're not joking, for a moment, there a zillion reasons to
> > call it a horrible finish. Hell, just from a taxpayer's standpoint I'm
> > ****ed that we're out $20 million because the guy couldn't set his
> altimeter
> > correctly.
>
> I am not perturbed by a pilot making an honest mistake and wasting a $20
> million airplane. That's a cost of 8 cents per person. There are a bunch
of
> thieves running the country, deliberately giving your money to corporate
> interests. Now THAT is something to be worried about.

Are you saying that the government should not buy things from corporations?
They bought that jet from a corporation. They bought its fuel from a
corporation. They bought its replacement from a corporation. They buy spare
parts for it from corporations. They also bought the pilot's flight suit,
helmet, oxygen hose, ejection seat, and even socks from corporations. It is
hard to imagine who the government would buy things like that from if not
corporations.

Or do you just have it in for certain corporate interests?

Really, I can understand being upset if the government pays too much for
stuff, but being upset simply because the government buys things from
corporations is simply childish. It evidences an extreme form of bigotry and
tremendous ignorance.

Who do you think owns corporations, anyway? Are you claiming that you have
never owned a share of stock, never bought insurance from a mutual fund,
never had a pension plan, never invested in a retirement account, never
deposited money in a bank or credit union, etc.? Because if you have done
any of those things, you have been an owner of those "corporate interests."

Really, if you want to get rid of corporations, you will have to return to a
pre-corporate economy -- basically an agrarian self sufficiency completely
incapable of producing airplanes of any kind, or much of anything else, for
that matter. Even communist economies are heavily dependent on corporations.
Trade would consist of whatever individuals could produce themselves and
distributed through local street fairs or something. It certainly would
increase the disparity between rich and poor and probably encourage the
re-introduction of slavery. The economy would be so anemic that billions of
people would starve to death, die of exposure, or be killed in ravaging
plagues.

Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably produced
by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "B.H. Lazard" > wrote in message
> news:hiS0c.160995$uV3.709916@attbi_s51...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:iMR0c.452166$na.1092261@attbi_s04...
> > > > Why do you call it a "horrible finish". Nobody got hurt and we got
to
> > see
> > > a
> > > > cool ejection sequence!!
> > >
> > > You forgot the little smiley thingy. :-)
> > >
> > > But assuming you're not joking, for a moment, there a zillion reasons
to
> > > call it a horrible finish. Hell, just from a taxpayer's standpoint
I'm
> > > ****ed that we're out $20 million because the guy couldn't set his
> > altimeter
> > > correctly.
> >
> > I am not perturbed by a pilot making an honest mistake and wasting a $20
> > million airplane. That's a cost of 8 cents per person. There are a bunch
> of
> > thieves running the country, deliberately giving your money to corporate
> > interests. Now THAT is something to be worried about.
>
> Are you saying that the government should not buy things from
corporations?
> They bought that jet from a corporation. They bought its fuel from a
> corporation. They bought its replacement from a corporation. They buy
spare
> parts for it from corporations. They also bought the pilot's flight suit,
> helmet, oxygen hose, ejection seat, and even socks from corporations. It
is
> hard to imagine who the government would buy things like that from if not
> corporations.
>
> Or do you just have it in for certain corporate interests?
>
Or does he fail to realize that government PRODUCES nothing.

[Jay Honeck]

> Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably produced
> by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.

I'm always amused when I hear someone spew back the Democratic Party's line
against "corporate interests."

Mary and I are a corporation -- and we represent small business in every
way.

I guess that just makes us mean, old "corporate interests"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Joe Morris]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

>> The pilot survived, right?

>His health is fine.

>His career, I sadly suspect, is not.

A comment from one of the ASF people at a CFIRC I was at over the
past weekend was that he is now flying a desk at the Pentagon.

The same man stated that the problem was that the pilot had become
too comfortable with practicing the maneuver at his home base, which
was about 800 (+/-; I don't recall the exact number) feet lower
than the airfield at which the accident occurred. At the accident
location he set up the split-S so that the top was at the proper
altitude MSL -- at his home base, meaning that the entire maneuver
was executed 800 feet lower than it should have been.

I have *no* military jet experience, but especially for airshows I'm
somewhat surprised that there isn't an altimeter set to QFE to serve
as a sanity check against exactly this sort of problem.

Joe Morris

[Jay Beckman]

"Joe Morris" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> >> The pilot survived, right?
>
> >His health is fine.
>
> >His career, I sadly suspect, is not.
>
> A comment from one of the ASF people at a CFIRC I was at over the
> past weekend was that he is now flying a desk at the Pentagon.
>
> The same man stated that the problem was that the pilot had become
> too comfortable with practicing the maneuver at his home base, which
> was about 800 (+/-; I don't recall the exact number) feet lower
> than the airfield at which the accident occurred. At the accident
> location he set up the split-S so that the top was at the proper
> altitude MSL -- at his home base, meaning that the entire maneuver
> was executed 800 feet lower than it should have been.
>
> I have *no* military jet experience, but especially for airshows I'm
> somewhat surprised that there isn't an altimeter set to QFE to serve
> as a sanity check against exactly this sort of problem.
>
> Joe Morris

Newbie ignorance:

What does QFE stand for?

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
Student Pilot
3.2 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up?

[Toks Desalu]

> > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
produced
> > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
>

Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership business.
You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within products is
bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business. So, Technically,
everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in most likely produced by
private business. Only corporations have the power to manipulate financial
system.

[Gig Giacona]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:9541c.166405$uV3.714298@attbi_s51...
>
> > > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
> produced
> > > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
> >
>
> Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership
business.
> You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within products
is
> bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business. So, Technically,
> everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in most likely produced
by
> private business. Only corporations have the power to manipulate financial
> system.
>
>

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Corporation I work for
serves about 100 clients. In many different industries. Number of employees
at each range from 3 to around 100.

Of our 100 clients only 4 are Sole Props, 10 are LLC (what we here in
Arkansas call partnerships and also a type of corporations) and the rest are
Corporations.

You are under the mistaken assumption that only really big businesses are
corporations. This just proves your ignorance on the topic of the economy.

GigG

[Jay Honeck]

> You are under the mistaken assumption that only really big businesses are
> corporations. This just proves your ignorance on the topic of the economy.

"Corporations" and "corporate interests" are code words for "rich guys" and
"Republicans".

It has nothing to do with reality.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message news:UU31c.12459$id3.7043@fed1read01...
>> What does QFE stand for?

QFE is the altimeter setting that will cause the instrument to read zero at the field
elevation. It's used a lot in relatively low lying places (like the UK). If you've
got some real elevations you run out little numbers in the altimeter to dry to get
the proper QFE in there.

[Big John]

Jay

QFE

QFE is a Q code used by pilots and air traffic control to refer to the
current air pressure which will calibrate the pilots altimeter to give
actual height above the ground at a particular airfield.

Sometimes it's easier to go to Google and type the word or phrase in
to get an answer vs asking the group and waiting around for an answer
<G>

Big John


On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 10:56:21 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

----clip----

>Newbie ignorance:
>
>What does QFE stand for?
>
>Jay Beckman
>Chandler, AZ
>Student Pilot
>3.2 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up?

Jay. Remember what goes up must come down (hopefully under control)
<G>

[Rob]

Jay Honeck wrote:
<snip>
> still hard to believe that they made such a simple mistake. (The final
> judgment was that the pilot had set his altimeter incorrectly, resulting in
> insufficient altitude for the maneuver.)

He didn't exactly (allegedly) "set" his altimeter incorrectly.
According to Avweb:

"The pilot incorrectly climbed to 1,670 feet AGL instead of 2,500 feet
before initiating the pull-down to the Split-S maneuver, according to
the Air Force news release. The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31, apparently
flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing the maneuver
at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet lower than
the Idaho field elevation."

Regards,

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay
> Sometimes it's easier to go to Google and type the word or phrase in
> to get an answer vs asking the group and waiting around for an answer
> <G>

Thanks, Big John -- but it wasn't me that was doing the asking!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:dY71c.462737$na.1096169@attbi_s04...
> > Jay
> > Sometimes it's easier to go to Google and type the word or phrase in
> > to get an answer vs asking the group and waiting around for an answer
> > <G>
>
> Thanks, Big John -- but it wasn't me that was doing the asking!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

I think he meant me...

The "other" Jay

;o)

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
3.2 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!

[BTIZ]

he set it correctly.. his mental math was in error..

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iMR0c.452166$na.1092261@attbi_s04...
> > Why do you call it a "horrible finish". Nobody got hurt and we got to
see
> a
> > cool ejection sequence!!
>
> You forgot the little smiley thingy. :-)
>
> But assuming you're not joking, for a moment, there a zillion reasons to
> call it a horrible finish. Hell, just from a taxpayer's standpoint I'm
> ****ed that we're out $20 million because the guy couldn't set his
altimeter
> correctly.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[BTIZ]

you can't set QFE when the field elevation is that high above sea level

BT

"Joe Morris" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > writes:
>
> >> The pilot survived, right?
>
> >His health is fine.
>
> >His career, I sadly suspect, is not.
>
> A comment from one of the ASF people at a CFIRC I was at over the
> past weekend was that he is now flying a desk at the Pentagon.
>
> The same man stated that the problem was that the pilot had become
> too comfortable with practicing the maneuver at his home base, which
> was about 800 (+/-; I don't recall the exact number) feet lower
> than the airfield at which the accident occurred. At the accident
> location he set up the split-S so that the top was at the proper
> altitude MSL -- at his home base, meaning that the entire maneuver
> was executed 800 feet lower than it should have been.
>
> I have *no* military jet experience, but especially for airshows I'm
> somewhat surprised that there isn't an altimeter set to QFE to serve
> as a sanity check against exactly this sort of problem.
>
> Joe Morris

[Jay Honeck]

> I think he meant me...
>
> The "other" Jay

Whoops! Sorry, Jay!

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Beckman]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:nj81c.25354$ko6.219040@attbi_s02...
> > I think he meant me...
> >
> > The "other" Jay
>
> Whoops! Sorry, Jay!
>
> ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

Guess you and I will have to stick with full "N" numbers...no abbreviations!

<G>

Jay (Beckman)

[S Green]

"Jay Beckman" > wrote in message
news:Om81c.12503$id3.73@fed1read01...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:nj81c.25354$ko6.219040@attbi_s02...
> > > I think he meant me...
> > >
> > > The "other" Jay
> >
> > Whoops! Sorry, Jay!
> >
> > ;-)
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
> Guess you and I will have to stick with full "N" numbers...no
abbreviations!
>

Jay B,

In the UK Q codes are used all the time. We set QNH airfield elevation ie
above sea level when we are going cross country and set QFE when either
working the pattern or arriving to a pattern so that on landing the
altimeter reads zero.
The normal form of joining in the UK is an overhead join usually at 1000'
above the centre of the field with a descent on the dead side aiming to be
at pattern height as you cross the upwind end of the runway.

Makes for an exciting time when you hear a load of aircraft "in the
overhead"

sg


We also use QDM magnetic bearing to a station QDR bearing from a station
when doing a VDF letdown and then QGH, which is heading to steer
accompanied by decent instructions from the controller.

[S Green]

Why not
"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:fg81c.12502$id3.1896@fed1read01...
> you can't set QFE when the field elevation is that high above sea level
>
> BT
>
> "Joe Morris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jay Honeck" > writes:
> >
> > >> The pilot survived, right?
> >
> > >His health is fine.
> >
> > >His career, I sadly suspect, is not.
> >
> > A comment from one of the ASF people at a CFIRC I was at over the
> > past weekend was that he is now flying a desk at the Pentagon.
> >
> > The same man stated that the problem was that the pilot had become
> > too comfortable with practicing the maneuver at his home base, which
> > was about 800 (+/-; I don't recall the exact number) feet lower
> > than the airfield at which the accident occurred. At the accident
> > location he set up the split-S so that the top was at the proper
> > altitude MSL -- at his home base, meaning that the entire maneuver
> > was executed 800 feet lower than it should have been.
> >
> > I have *no* military jet experience, but especially for airshows I'm
> > somewhat surprised that there isn't an altimeter set to QFE to serve
> > as a sanity check against exactly this sort of problem.
> >
> > Joe Morris
>
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:oB11c.25723$PR3.498131@attbi_s03...
> > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
produced
> > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
>
> I'm always amused when I hear someone spew back the Democratic Party's
line
> against "corporate interests."
>
> Mary and I are a corporation -- and we represent small business in every
> way.

But if your become successful and big, for whatever reason, then you're
evil. Doesn't matter if you do it through hard work and by giving good value
to your customers...you're BIG and thus you're EVIL. End of story.

> I guess that just makes us mean, old "corporate interests"...

Capitalist running dog!!!

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:9541c.166405$uV3.714298@attbi_s51...
>
> > > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
> produced
> > > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
> >
>
> Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership
business.
> You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within products
is
> bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business.

Only marginally correct.

>So, Technically,
> everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in most likely produced
by
> private business.

Bot even technically correct.

> Only corporations have the power to manipulate financial
> system.

Back to school for you: Corporations are PRIVATE business. And what the hell
is a financial "system"?

Quite barfing back the crap your leftist professors crammed down your throat
and think for yourself (and at least get some basic facts correct).

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:b851c.28570$PR3.506599@attbi_s03...
> > You are under the mistaken assumption that only really big businesses
are
> > corporations. This just proves your ignorance on the topic of the
economy.
>
> "Corporations" and "corporate interests" are code words for "rich guys"
and
> "Republicans".
>
> It has nothing to do with reality.

Quite. Take a good look at the Fortune 500 and see how many are "run" by
Republicans.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:nj81c.25354$ko6.219040@attbi_s02...
> > I think he meant me...
> >
> > The "other" Jay
>
> Whoops! Sorry, Jay!
>

"You can call me Jay, or you can call me...."

[Toks Desalu]

You have no idea what you are talking about. The Corporation I work for
> serves about 100 clients. In many different industries. Number of
employees
> at each range from 3 to around 100.
>
> Of our 100 clients only 4 are Sole Props, 10 are LLC (what we here in
> Arkansas call partnerships and also a type of corporations) and the rest
are
> Corporations.
>
> You are under the mistaken assumption that only really big businesses are
> corporations. This just proves your ignorance on the topic of the economy.
>

In this situation you may be right. But, I am trying to illustrate that
"combined number of proprietorships and partnerships in the United States is
more than five times the number of corporations." Because of this statement,
I only assume that my previous comment might be more accurute. Since you
explain that only four of them belong to partnerships, then I am mistaken.
However, the question is still left unanswered:

> Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably produced
> by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.

How can we prove that corportations produce more products than the combined
sole proprietorship and partnership?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> "Corporations" and "corporate interests" are code words for "rich guys" ....

And "rich" is defined as anyone who makes twice what I do.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

S Green wrote:
>
> Why not

Altimeters simply can't be set that high. The adjustment mechanism doesn't
have the range.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[BTIZ]

the adjustment range to set the altimeter to the proper pressure will not
move to adjust 2800ft of altitude.

try it some time, to adjust from a "standard 29.92" at sea level. Move that
altimeter to my airport at 2833MSL and it still says 29.92, now try to move
it to read 0, this would require you to move the setting more than 2800 feet
which exceeds the capability of a standard aviation altimeter.

BT

"S Green" > wrote in message
...
> Why not
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:fg81c.12502$id3.1896@fed1read01...
> > you can't set QFE when the field elevation is that high above sea level
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Joe Morris" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Jay Honeck" > writes:
> > >
> > > >> The pilot survived, right?
> > >
> > > >His health is fine.
> > >
> > > >His career, I sadly suspect, is not.
> > >
> > > A comment from one of the ASF people at a CFIRC I was at over the
> > > past weekend was that he is now flying a desk at the Pentagon.
> > >
> > > The same man stated that the problem was that the pilot had become
> > > too comfortable with practicing the maneuver at his home base, which
> > > was about 800 (+/-; I don't recall the exact number) feet lower
> > > than the airfield at which the accident occurred. At the accident
> > > location he set up the split-S so that the top was at the proper
> > > altitude MSL -- at his home base, meaning that the entire maneuver
> > > was executed 800 feet lower than it should have been.
> > >
> > > I have *no* military jet experience, but especially for airshows I'm
> > > somewhat surprised that there isn't an altimeter set to QFE to serve
> > > as a sanity check against exactly this sort of problem.
> > >
> > > Joe Morris
> >
> >
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Toks Desalu wrote:
>
> In this situation you may be right. But, I am trying to illustrate that
> "combined number of proprietorships and partnerships in the United States is
> more than five times the number of corporations."

And you think it follows from that that all the stuff corporations sell are made
by those small businesses? No way.

One medium size corporation is the productive equivalent of about 8,000 sole
proprietorships, and even the parts for most items we buy could not be made by
one or two people.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > "Corporations" and "corporate interests" are code words for "rich guys"
.....
>
> And "rich" is defined as anyone who makes twice what I do.
>
Ahhhh...the traditional definition of _rich_ is someone who merely has a
dollar more than you.

[Jay Honeck]

> Quite. Take a good look at the Fortune 500 and see how many are "run" by
> Republicans.

That's because they are "productive" -- a concept that the Democratic Party
should be embracing, rather than disdaining.

Take this to the bank: If the Democratic Party would lose their
"I'm-a-victim-and-you-owe-me" wing of their party, they would easily be able
to attract a majority of Fortune 500 CEOs, if only as a reaction to the
Republican Party's swing toward the Religious Right. In my opinion, the
vast majority of Republicans are quite uneasy with the direction their party
is going, and are ripe for the picking.

As the Democrats stand today, however, few productive members of society can
support them.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Capitalist running dog!!!

You know you're reached a certain level of success when you hear those
words...

Ah, my dream has been fulfilled!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig Giacona]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:ms91c.30081$PR3.525059@attbi_s03...
>
>
> You have no idea what you are talking about. The Corporation I work for
> > serves about 100 clients. In many different industries. Number of
> employees
> > at each range from 3 to around 100.
> >
> > Of our 100 clients only 4 are Sole Props, 10 are LLC (what we here in
> > Arkansas call partnerships and also a type of corporations) and the rest
> are
> > Corporations.
> >
> > You are under the mistaken assumption that only really big businesses
are
> > corporations. This just proves your ignorance on the topic of the
economy.
> >
>
> In this situation you may be right. But, I am trying to illustrate that
> "combined number of proprietorships and partnerships in the United States
is
> more than five times the number of corporations." Because of this
statement,
> I only assume that my previous comment might be more accurute. Since you
> explain that only four of them belong to partnerships, then I am mistaken.
> However, the question is still left unanswered:
>
> > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
produced
> > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
>
> How can we prove that corportations produce more products than the
combined
> sole proprietorship and partnership?
>
>

What you need to do is get over this assumption that incorporated entities
are in some way evil and that products produced by and the people that own
non-incorporated entities are in some way golden and pure.

There are nice people and there are assholes. It doesn't matter if they have
INC after their business name. And that is all a corporation is a person or
group that has filed with the state to act in some way.

You do know that many if not most charitable organizations are CORPORATIONS
don't you.

GigG

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> > And "rich" is defined as anyone who makes twice what I do.
> >
> Ahhhh...the traditional definition of _rich_ is someone who merely has a
> dollar more than you.

Inflation.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Joe Morris]

"Jay Beckman" > writes:

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>> > Jay
>> > Sometimes it's easier to go to Google and type the word or phrase in
>> > to get an answer vs asking the group and waiting around for an answer

>> Thanks, Big John -- but it wasn't me that was doing the asking!

>I think he meant me...

>The "other" Jay

>Jay Beckman
>Student Pilot - KCHD
>3.2 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!

....and "QFE" by itself as a Google search yields 50,000+ hits, starting
with "Quad Fast Ethernet". <grin> Adding "altimeter" to the search
brings up what you need.

But as a student pilot, please recall that the most stupid question
is the one that you don't ask. If there's something about flying
that you don't understand, it's far better to ask it while sitting
in front of a monitor at home than to realize while on short final
that you need the answer before landing...

And while definitions of "QFE" found on Google will probably be
correct, there are issues where a search on Google will return
conflicting responses. (surprised?) Ask the questions here and
you might also get conflicting responses, but you'll also get a
discussion as other posters offer arguments for or against one
of the answers, giving you some ideas about what to ask your instructor
in a face-to-face discussion.

And welcome to the ranks of aviation!

Joe Morris

[Joe Morris]

"BTIZ" > writes:

>you can't set QFE when the field elevation is that high above sea level

Perhaps not on a regular (civilian) aircraft altimeter, but given the
number of toys that are part of a typical military bird it would seem
that something as simple as a parachute jumper's alitmeter (which *is*
designed to be set to QFE) would be a good, inexpensive way to do
a sanity check on altitudes used in low-level aerobatics.

Joe Morris

[Jay Beckman]

"Joe Morris" > wrote in message
...
>
> ...and "QFE" by itself as a Google search yields 50,000+ hits, starting
> with "Quad Fast Ethernet". <grin> Adding "altimeter" to the search
> brings up what you need.
>
> But as a student pilot, please recall that the most stupid question
> is the one that you don't ask. If there's something about flying
> that you don't understand, it's far better to ask it while sitting
> in front of a monitor at home than to realize while on short final
> that you need the answer before landing...
>
> And while definitions of "QFE" found on Google will probably be
> correct, there are issues where a search on Google will return
> conflicting responses. (surprised?) Ask the questions here and
> you might also get conflicting responses, but you'll also get a
> discussion as other posters offer arguments for or against one
> of the answers, giving you some ideas about what to ask your instructor
> in a face-to-face discussion.
>
> And welcome to the ranks of aviation!
>
> Joe Morris

Thank you Joe...

Jay Beckman
Student Pilot - KCHD
3.2 Hrs ... Nowhere to go but up!

[C J Campbell]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:9541c.166405$uV3.714298@attbi_s51...
>
> > > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
> produced
> > > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
> >
>
> Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership
business.
> You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within products
is
> bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business. So, Technically,
> everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in most likely produced
by
> private business. Only corporations have the power to manipulate financial
> system.

Absolute nonsense. Corporations come in all sizes. Some have only a single
shareholder and no employees.

Almost all producers of raw materials, including mining and petroleum
companies, farms, fishing boats, etc., are corporations.

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
> news:9541c.166405$uV3.714298@attbi_s51...
> >
> > > > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
> > produced
> > > > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
> > >
> >
> > Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership
> business.
> > You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within products
> is
> > bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business.
>
> Only marginally correct.

Not even marginally correct.

[Newps]

Toks Desalu wrote:


> Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership business.
> You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within products is
> bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business. So, Technically,
> everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in most likely produced by
> private business. Only corporations have the power to manipulate financial
> system.
>

Got to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.

[Newps]

Big John wrote:


> QFE is a Q code used by pilots and air traffic control


Not in this country.

[C J Campbell]

"Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
news:ms91c.30081$PR3.525059@attbi_s03...
>
> In this situation you may be right. But, I am trying to illustrate that
> "combined number of proprietorships and partnerships in the United States
is
> more than five times the number of corporations."

Even though you probably made up this statistic out of thin air it means
absolutely nothing.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:4jm1c.30506$ko6.303264@attbi_s02...
> > Quite. Take a good look at the Fortune 500 and see how many are "run" by
> > Republicans.
>
> That's because they are "productive" -- a concept that the Democratic
Party
> should be embracing, rather than disdaining.

Actually, most Fortune 500's do not have Repub's as CEO's, particularly in
the tech and comm sectors. CEO's, by and large, get where they are by
politicing, and that's something Repub's don't do worth a damn.

>
> Take this to the bank: If the Democratic Party would lose their
> "I'm-a-victim-and-you-owe-me" wing of their party, they would easily be
able
> to attract a majority of Fortune 500 CEOs, if only as a reaction to the
> Republican Party's swing toward the Religious Right. In my opinion, the
> vast majority of Republicans are quite uneasy with the direction their
party
> is going, and are ripe for the picking.

The Repub's constituency is in the middle class and with self-employed...the
highly denigrated bourgeoisie.

> As the Democrats stand today, however, few productive members of society
can
> support them.

Exactly.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Toks Desalu" > wrote in message
> > news:9541c.166405$uV3.714298@attbi_s51...
> > >
> > > > > Everything you see, touch, use, eat, wear or live in was probably
> > > produced
> > > > > by a corporation and could be produced in no other way.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Actually major stuff came from sole proprietorship or partnership
> > business.
> > > You see, corporations sell the finishing products. Parts within
products
> > is
> > > bought from sole proprietorship or partnerships business.
> >
> > Only marginally correct.
>
> Not even marginally correct.

Some small firms do provide materials and services, but hey are marginal to
the entire process and dollar level.

[Toks Desalu]

> > In this situation you may be right. But, I am trying to illustrate that
> > "combined number of proprietorships and partnerships in the United
States
> is
> > more than five times the number of corporations."
>
> Even though you probably made up this statistic out of thin air it means
> absolutely nothing.
>
That input I made above is a real statistic, not a made up crap. I can refer
you to the source where I found it if you like.

[Paul Sengupta]

"S Green" > wrote in message
...
> The normal form of joining in the UK is an overhead join usually at 1000'
> above the centre of the field with a descent on the dead side aiming to be
> at pattern height as you cross the upwind end of the runway.

Nooooo! Circuit height is at 1000' usually (or thereabouts) so the
overhead join is above that. Sorry I know you know that, but just
clarifying it...

Paul